Middlesborough away match thread

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Top Robin said:

I can't believe you have posted that..... unbelievable! 

Sorry, but that’s how I feel.  If posters can be strong in their proclamations about those who are comfortable with Nige’s performances then I feel I can be strong in my comments back.

The position he took over in (end of Feb 2021) was at a point where the CEO had pissed off the players re contract situations (to then piss off himself), and the losses re the mismanagement of fees / wages (vs quality) and Covid weren’t in the public domain, we’d only seen a small portion of the covid impact in the accounts (for 19/20 season) as he took over.

How do you square £68m of losses borne from an irresponsible management regime, and expect to improve the squad, and therefore turn around from the inevitable downturn that had to happen, regardless of who was in charge.  Had Holden remained, I don’t believe we would’ve gone down either, we might’ve finished higher, but that summer was gonna be a cluster#### as the squad was gonna be decimated with little scope to improve.  That continued into the summer just gone too.

So, there you have my reasons why I said it!

Edited November 5, 2022 by Davefevs

[firstdivision]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Sorry, but that’s how I feel.  If posters can be strong in their proclamations about those who are comfortable with Nige’s performances then I feel I can be strong in my comments back.

The position he took over in (end of Feb 2021) was at a point where the CEO had pissed off the players re contract situations (to piss off himself), and the losses re the mismanagement of fees / wages (vs quality) and Covid weren’t in the public domain, we’d only seen a small portion of the covid impact in the accounts (for 19/20 season) as he took over.

How do you square £68m of losses borne from an irresponsible management regime, and expect to improve the squad, and therefore turn around from the inevitable downturn that had to happen, regardless of who was in charge.  Had Holden remained, I don’t believe we would’ve gone down either, we might’ve finished higher, but that summer was gonna be a cluster#### as the squad was gonna be decimated with little scope to improve.  That continued into the summer just gone too.

So, there you have my reasons why I said it!

Why would the squad have been decimated at the end of DH’s first season? Most of the players were under contract.

Also, NP didn’t inherit a bad squad, Dave. He inherited an injury-hit squad - that was the problem in the 2020-21 season. He’s had a lot of decent to solid Championship players, who are now mostly fit, and benefited from some good youngsters. He’s also been able to sign the likes of James, Naismith and Atkinson. I accept he’s a bit short of numbers, which plays into your point about us being quite competitive if everyone is fit. 
Why did there have to be an inevitable downturn? I simply don’t accept that. The injury season killed us and seemed to help NP lower everyone’s expectations. 
Surely plenty of other clubs have had to tighten belts. If anything, the downturn would more likely come after all the expensive signings are out of contract next summer and we shed lots of players and have to rebuild with little transfer-fee money. 
 

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Sorry, but that’s how I feel.  If posters can be strong in their proclamations about those who are comfortable with Nige’s performances then I feel I can be strong in my comments back.

The position he took over in (end of Feb 2021) was at a point where the CEO had pissed off the players re contract situations (to piss off himself), and the losses re the mismanagement of fees / wages (vs quality) and Covid weren’t in the public domain, we’d only seen a small portion of the covid impact in the accounts (for 19/20 season) as he took over.

How do you square £68m of losses borne from an irresponsible management regime, and expect to improve the squad, and therefore turn around from the inevitable downturn that had to happen, regardless of who was in charge.  Had Holden remained, I don’t believe we would’ve gone down either, we might’ve finished higher, but that summer was gonna be a cluster#### as the squad was gonna be decimated with little scope to improve.  That continued into the summer just gone too.

So, there you have my reasons why I said it!

Dave- I honestly think that you overthink.

I'm just a BCFC fan and see an average team performing in a less than an average way- consistently.

After over 80 games in charge, it is not unreasonable for us fans not part of the "stats intelligentsia" to question the fact that Nige is not improving his squad. That we are very close to the relegation zone, that we have averaged 1 point a game since Nige took over and our current season is looking less good than our last season, that we have won 2 games in the last 12. That despite three windows Nige has not been able to recruit a player that provides the spark that the team needs - even as a loan. The players that create the occasional spark were already here- Weinmann, Semenyo, Conway, formerly Bentley now O'Leary, and Scott.

BCFC are not alone in being financially challenged and are actually in a much better position in that respect than many teams ahead of us. I'm bored of this " NP has been dealt such a bad hand... blame LJ/MA/Parachute payments/ Refs have it in for us, blah blah blah"

I have supported BCFC for a very long time and have never ever seen a Manager get given such huge latitude from such a vociferous minority. 

Nige needs to get the best out of an average side, produce an average position in the table or SL needs to change his Manager.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Said this before.

Fact is players with Championship experience in this sweet spot of their career are largely out of our price range.

We did manage to bring in James a month or so before his 30th birthday & Naismith just after his, but they’re very much exceptions.

Kalas & Bentley are both 29, but for differing reasons neither are currently featuring.

This is why we have signed the likes of Atkinson & Sykes, hoping by the time they are 27 they will have bags of experience at Championship level but that’s a slow old process.

Yeh I said it at the beginning of the season, hell it was even an issue last season. O'Leary will be 27 next season as well. 

It's a symptom of our predicament rather than a cause, but it's damning nonetheless.

[petehinton]

28 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Why would the squad have been decimated at the end of DH’s first season? Most of the players were under contract.

Also, NP didn’t inherit a bad squad, Dave. He inherited an injury-hit squad - that was the problem in the 2020-21 season. He’s had a lot of decent to solid Championship players, who are now mostly fit, and benefited from some good youngsters. He’s also been able to sign the likes of James, Naismith and Atkinson. I accept he’s a bit short of numbers, which plays into your point about us being quite competitive if everyone is fit. 
Why did there have to be an inevitable downturn? I simply don’t accept that. The injury season killed us and seemed to help NP lower everyone’s expectations. 
Surely plenty of other clubs have had to tighten belts. If anything, the downturn would more likely come after all the expensive signings are out of contract next summer and we shed lots of players and have to rebuild with little transfer-fee money. 
 

 

If anything, we’ll be in an even better place next year.  Kalas, Bentley, JD will all be top 5 earners; the former never fit, and the latter not rated. We’ll inevitably get huge money for Scott and/or Semenyo.  Combine those things with the ability we’ve had to get some of the better quality free transfers and it’s a very very good mix. 

[italian dave]

3 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Not been keeping up with the thread, but was the Pen shout a Pen.?

Ours? I didn’t think so. It was pretty close to where we were sat and didn’t really look like it. There weren’t too many shouts from either the players or the fans. 

[petehinton]

25 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Dave- I honestly think that you overthink.

I'm just a BCFC fan and see an average team performing in a less than an average way- consistently.

After over 80 games in charge, it is not unreasonable for us fans not part of the "stats intelligentsia" to question the fact that Nige is not improving his squad. That we are very close to the relegation zone, that we have averaged 1 point a game since Nige took over and our current season is looking less good than our last season, that we have won 2 games in the last 12. That despite three windows Nige has not been able to recruit a player that provides the spark that the team needs - even as a loan. The players that create the occasional spark were already here- Weinmann, Semenyo, Conway, formerly Bentley now O'Leary, and Scott.

BCFC are not alone in being financially challenged and are actually in a much better position in that respect than many teams ahead of us. I'm bored of this " NP has been dealt such a bad hand... blame LJ/MA/Parachute payments/ Refs have it in for us, blah blah blah"

I have supported BCFC for a very long time and have never ever seen a Manager get given such huge latitude from such a vociferous minority. 

Nige needs to get the best out of an average side, produce an average position in the table or SL needs to change his Manager.

Do you think many other managers would shrug and get on with the job at hand whilst having to play Tanner and Pring at CB?

People look at results and stat padding too much.  We were by far the better side in our last two days, and could very easily, and probably should be, looking at today as a draw after two comfortable wins. That’s the overarching difference here

[pillred]

4 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

But when he gets back he’s got five months to earn a move to where he wants to be. He won’t be doing that based on recent form and I think that will magically reappear post World Cup……..

You old cynic :laugh:.

[italian dave]

6 hours ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

No - I’ve just watched the replay (posted on here) to confirm my original thoughts. 

Just home, hence delay in replying!

You still had the advantage of me! Fair enough; we all see it differently. What I saw today was basically ZV being asked at times to provide defensive cover for pretty much 25% of the pitch! And not against a Sheff U side at home, with long balls being pumped to two forwards, but against a pretty fast and mobile Boro side who were getting midfielders forward quickly.

Im not blaming Semenyo BTW. He’s not a RWB. Neither is Weimann, but he does at least have the experience and the nous. 

At the end of the day I came back to my first thought when I saw the team line up. I’d have no problem with dropping Sykes and Dasilva based on recent performances, but on the basis that we have replacements for their positions. Doing so and then putting Weimann and Semenyo in those positions just seemed like an odd thing to do, especially away from home. 

[pillred]

4 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

I agree but once ffp is safe for teams I think wages will go back up. Not saying same level as before but there will always be teams gambling for promotion. The biggest killer is every championship team can convince themselves they are close. 
 

We will see who we can resign. I’d really only mind losing Wells I think at this point other than the boys that may get sold. Edit: bad wording I would like to resign Wells if possible. Most other ooc I think we can replace easily enough. 
 

Dasilva is solid but can get picked on defensively at times and he isn’t aggressive enough for me going forward. Lack of speed and strength hurts him. 

Bentley was a good servant but got Bajic in for a reason. Think Max needs a new deal though? I’d re up max and let bentley walk. 
 

Kalas has been fine but think maybe a good one to let walk so we can get in a top cb target. 
 

Massengo was always going to leave. Martin can go. Klose same as Martin. Both just past being good squad players imo. Chuck King into that as well. Probably missing a couple but you are right. With what? Up to 10 leaving I think only 3-4 a big loss. But they will truly leave big holes to fill. 

Kalas WAS fine end of story, also known as Mr glass can leave on the next bus as far as I'm concerned, harsh?   

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Dave- I honestly think that you overthink.

I'm just a BCFC fan and see an average team performing in a less than an average way- consistently.

I see an average team performing averagely but inconsistently when it’s pretty much all available.  When it’s not available, because it has no depth I see it performing less adequately for the needs of the league.

After over 80 games in charge, it is not unreasonable for us fans not part of the "stats intelligentsia" to question the fact that Nige is not improving his squad.

who’s mentioned stats?  Not me.

Of course it’s not unreasonable to question.

That we are very close to the relegation zone, that we have averaged 1 point a game since Nige took over and our current season is looking less good than our last season, that we have won 2 games in the last 12. That despite three windows Nige has not been able to recruit a player that provides the spark that the team needs - even as a loan.

ask yourself why.

I hear we will see last season’s accounts very soon, hopefully this week.

The players that create the occasional spark were already here- Weinmann, Semenyo, Conway, formerly Bentley now O'Leary, and Scott.

Naismith adds spark.

Weimann has added more spark under Nige than under his predecessors.

Who gave Conway, Scott, Benarous, etc their chance ahead of time?

Semenyo, Bentley, O’Leary are players you can create arguments either way.

BCFC are not alone in being financially challenged and are actually in a much better position in that respect than many teams ahead of us.

indeed they are others, but there is a difference being Cashflow hindered (Coventry) than FFP hindered (us and Stoke)

I'm bored of this " NP has been dealt such a bad hand... blame LJ/MA/Parachute payments/ Refs have it in for us, blah blah blah"

bored you might me.  I’m bored of win percentage quips without context.

we used 8 players from our Academy today.  That is a “cheap model”, borne out of necessity.  We can’t afford to have more senior pros signed from other clubs on higher wages and for fees to fill the gaps, just in case.  If you think Nige should be replaced then who comes in to replace him with that outlook?  I’m not asking you to name someone.  But genuinely what type of manager / coach do you think sees Bristol City (in Nov 22) as an attractive proposition?  Forgetting Compensation (for a new manager) and payoffs (for Nige and his coaches), do you think some like Schumacher at Plymouth here come?  Would Matty Taylor come here from Exeter (now at stable Rotherham)?  Could we have made a play for Corberan when Olympiacos sacked him?

We get someone like Sean Flynn imho

I have supported BCFC for a very long time and have never ever seen a Manager get given such huge latitude from such a vociferous minority.

the football world has changed, the transparency of the business of football (and the lack of it in some cases) and the disparity between the haves and have nots through the leagues has meant is fans now can look beyond just results to understand some of the why, what, where, how, who in greater granularity than we could before.  I go back to Dicks / Div One.

Nige needs to get the best out of an average side, produce an average position in the table or SL needs to change his Manager.

As long as the “objective” / expectation is fair, then I have no argument.  But if you think a top 6 push is a reasonable expectation, like some are suggesting, then the argument is flawed.

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Ours? I didn’t think so. It was pretty close to where we were sat and didn’t really look like it. There weren’t too many shouts from either the players or the fans. 

Definitely contact on Wells…enough to make him go down / stumble / not get a shot off…YEP.  But contact does not mean a foul nor a penalty.  Putting a player off his shot doesn’t mean a penalty either.  I reckon VAR would’ve been an interesting dialogue between ref and Stockley Park though!

[Dan Robin]

I was reading the match report on the OS and....

Semenyo blazed his shit over the bar under pressure. 

[REDOXO]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We are playing players that would not have had a cat in hells chance of playing under other regimes. The reason being we have issues with remaining within the rules because the board of directors gave huge Gobs of money to a bloke who had no track record to spend it. 
 

The players we looked at including those That now play in the premier league that were deemed not good enough is soul destroying. 
 

I feel it on match day more than most some might say, but when it’s done it’s pretty obvious we have spent no money in the closed season and are trying to create something Dicks like out of the only place we can spend money, the academy. 
 

 

[cheddarwedlocker]

Today, out of the 11 starters, 7 were academy prospects who the majority of have been fast tracked into the first team mainly because of out financial status. To think we are getting this level out of a group of -24 year olds with the exception of 3 is magnificent. 

[italian dave]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Definitely contact on Wells…enough to make him go down / stumble / not get a shot off…YEP.  But contact does not mean a foul nor a penalty.  Putting a player off his shot doesn’t mean a penalty either.  I reckon VAR would’ve been an interesting dialogue between ref and Stockley Park though!

Yes, agree: there was contact, but that happens all the time all over the pitch. All I’d say is that ‘in the moment’ it just didn’t look like the sort of contact that’s going to get a penalty. (And I think that’s one of the problems with VAR; it looks at it from a different perspective and in a different context).

What I would say though is the the ref gave a couple of free kicks from fairly innocuous looking and similar types of contact elsewhere on the pitch. It was a contrast with earlier in the season when, in the interest of allowing ‘greater physicality, refs seemed content to allow players to clatter through the back of someone who’s about to head/control the ball. But it just wasn’t going to get a penalty in the box. 

[pillred]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You both make some very good points, but I'm of the opinion with all the excuses made as for our lack of success that I or you might as well be in charge of tactics and team selection, could we do any worse? not sure we would, and with your excellent tactical analysis Dave I certainly don;t think you would,  look I'm well aware how fanciful this all sounds but we can all see I think you would agree that in theory we have a team with a lot of potential, the fact we played Sheffield Utd of the park for most of the game would back that up NP was definitely not at fault for the fact we did not win that game but how long can we keep making excuses for some of the more bizarre team selections and substitutions?     

Spoiler

 

 

[Rob k]

8 minutes ago, pillred said:

You both make some very good points, but I'm of the opinion with all the excuses made as for our lack of success that I or you might as well be in charge of tactics and team selection, could we do any worse? not sure we would, and with your excellent tactical analysis Dave I certainly don;t think you would,  look I'm well aware how fanciful this all sounds but we can all see I think you would agree that in theory we have a team with a lot of potential, the fact we played Sheffield Utd of the park for most of the game would back that up NP was definitely not at fault for the fact we did not win that game but how long can we keep making excuses for some of the more bizarre team selections and substitutions?     

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I think the issue is with the NP out lot is that they are only seeing a team on the pitch which is inconsistent and give no thought to the issues that have been going on behind the scenes which NP has alluded to only this week which he’s had to sort. This doesn’t even take in to account our financial position which obviously doesn’t help either. Now none of us know how serious or what those problems were, but it’s clearly taken a long time to to fix. 

[Ska Junkie]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

He was great, but I think you do Conway and Pring a bit of a disservice today.

Maybe by the 'an absolute mile' Dave.

I'm a pro Pring man and don't get what has kept him out of the side.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, pillred said:

You both make some very good points, but I'm of the opinion with all the excuses made as for our lack of success that I or you might as well be in charge of tactics and team selection, could we do any worse? not sure we would, and with your excellent tactical analysis Dave I certainly don;t think you would,  look I'm well aware how fanciful this all sounds but we can all see I think you would agree that in theory we have a team with a lot of potential, the fact we played Sheffield Utd of the park for most of the game would back that up NP was definitely not at fault for the fact we did not win that game but how long can we keep making excuses for some of the more bizarre team selections and substitutions?     

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I think the bit in bold sums it up, that we are a bit of a mixed bag, players performances are mixed, some of Nige’s decisions are mixed.  Some of those decisions are mixed because we don’t know what performance we are gonna get from the players.  From Weimann (mr consistency last season) to Vyner (been really good of late, very poor today).

It’s very Bristol City, that’s the only consistency!

[SouthS22]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yeh I said it at the beginning of the season, hell it was even an issue last season. O'Leary will be 27 next season as well. 

It's a symptom of our predicament rather than a cause, but it's damning nonetheless.

I agree with this in general terms in that I would expect us to be in a better place at this stage, after 20 months under this management team.  

Its clearly the case that there were massive issues that NP took on when he joined us.  That is the principle reason why I’ve tried to be more patient, less critical and more supportive, despite the football being played by the team being so bad for so long.  

The squad NP inherited was decimated by injuries but that was by far not the only issue.  Perhaps more importantly the culture at the club was far too accepting of ‘mediocre’, and then there did need to be huge upheaval in the summer at the end of that first season because we needed to cut the wage bill by so much.  We’ve been massively constrained in what we’ve been able to do in the transfer market to replace those players and have had to look to the academy instead and bring players through. 

There have been some positives, especially this season, which have been instrumental in retaining any faith. Cultural change is clearly being achieved and we’ve  started to see an identity on the pitch at long last.  There’s been progress on the pitch to some extent, with some strong performances this season which continue to give me hope that those are the levels we can reach on a consistent basis under NP.  Despite the constraints he’s also bought in some good signings in Naismith and James (and with more development Sykes, Tanner and Wilson).

That said, there are lot of negatives too.  I don’t buy into this narrative that the squad is so poor or thin that it’s amazing that NP has managed to get anything out of them.  We have some real talent in the team, who we should be getting more from. We should be more organised and stop giving away soft goals game after game. Team set up has got to be better, and consider opponents as well as playing to whatever strengths we have - at least a plan B.  We’ve got got to stop playing players constantly out of position and only basing team selection on trial and error.  And in game management has got to be better - making tactical tweaks and changes according to how the game is going and not randomly chucking extra strikers on (Chris Martin especially) when we are losing and totally disrupting the rhythm of the team. 

I thought at the end of last season that if we are in the bottom 6 by the time the World Cup break comes around, we probably need to be looking at management recruitment and putting plans in place.  If we’re still there by end of January then those plans need to be implemented because this club should be aspiring to better than bottom of the table finish, or even worse relegation. 

Still hoping for a good run of results and the achievement of greater consistency, but I think the next two games and then how we restart after the World Cup are going to be critical. 

 

 

 

[MC RISK77]

Christ what a different place this will be with two wins next week, before we can all have a month off watching a World Cup that no one seems to give a toss about right now.

Getting to 26 points if we beat stoke will cement mid table and allow all our injured players time to fully recuperate.

 

[Super]

3 hours ago, MC RISK77 said:

Christ what a different place this will be with two wins next week, before we can all have a month off watching a World Cup that no one seems to give a toss about right now.

Getting to 26 points if we beat stoke will cement mid table and allow all our injured players time to fully recuperate.

 

Why would anyone not care about the WC? Bizarre. 

[Top Robin]

3 hours ago, MC RISK77 said:

Christ what a different place this will be with two wins next week, before we can all have a month off watching a World Cup that no one seems to give a toss about right now.

Getting to 26 points if we beat stoke will cement mid table and allow all our injured players time to fully recuperate.

 

I do

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

9 hours ago, petehinton said:

People look at results and stat padding too much.  We were by far the better side in our last two days, and could very easily, and probably should be, looking at today as a draw after two comfortable wins. That’s the overarching difference here

 

 

Yes, people do look at results because when you are in any position of trying to get promoted or stay clear of relegation- it's the only thing that matters. Impressive performances only make a difference if this either translates into points or consistency and we lack both. Stating that "if " we had won the last 2 games seems odd when we didnt.

 

[Major Isewater]

28 minutes ago, Super said:

Why would anyone not care about the WC? Bizarre. 

I care about the World Cup which is why I am saddened and angry with the decision to give it to Qatar.

Amongst other more important reasons , that we have to interrupt domestic leagues to accommodate the host country stinks. 
 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

10 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

But if you think a top 6 push is a reasonable expectation, like some are suggesting, then the argument is flawed.

I don't and didnt so keep to my stated words please, Dave.

Of the last 36 points available to us we have picked up 9 points: 8 defeats, 3 draws and 2 wins. In the previous 8 games we won 5 , lost 2 and drew 1. That's not progress.

It is similar to last season - almost identical so I just don't see the progress you and others do. The worrying trend is we are losing too many games and if that is expressed by a % -so what? Facts are facts.

We have played more games than anyone below us and are 3 points clear of safety.

My whole point has been and remains that ,imo, Nige is not getting the best or making the most out of the players available as a team and this has been a hall mark of his tenure.  If Nige continues in a similar vein and is unable to create an average position from an average squad then SL will take action and make our differing points of view wholly redundant.

[Super]

34 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I care about the World Cup which is why I am saddened and angry with the decision to give it to Qatar.

Amongst other more important reasons , that we have to interrupt domestic leagues to accommodate the host country stinks. 
 

I get that. 

[Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan]

4 hours ago, MC RISK77 said:

Getting to 26 points if we beat stoke will cement mid table and allow all our injured players time to fully recuperate.

 

Stoke? 

[italian dave]

8 hours ago, SouthS22 said:

I agree with this in general terms in that I would expect us to be in a better place at this stage, after 20 months under this management team.  

Its clearly the case that there were massive issues that NP took on when he joined us.  That is the principle reason why I’ve tried to be more patient, less critical and more supportive, despite the football being played by the team being so bad for so long.  

The squad NP inherited was decimated by injuries but that was by far not the only issue.  Perhaps more importantly the culture at the club was far too accepting of ‘mediocre’, and then there did need to be huge upheaval in the summer at the end of that first season because we needed to cut the wage bill by so much.  We’ve been massively constrained in what we’ve been able to do in the transfer market to replace those players and have had to look to the academy instead and bring players through. 

There have been some positives, especially this season, which have been instrumental in retaining any faith. Cultural change is clearly being achieved and we’ve  started to see an identity on the pitch at long last.  There’s been progress on the pitch to some extent, with some strong performances this season which continue to give me hope that those are the levels we can reach on a consistent basis under NP.  Despite the constraints he’s also bought in some good signings in Naismith and James (and with more development Sykes, Tanner and Wilson).

That said, there are lot of negatives too.  I don’t buy into this narrative that the squad is so poor or thin that it’s amazing that NP has managed to get anything out of them.  We have some real talent in the team, who we should be getting more from. We should be more organised and stop giving away soft goals game after game. Team set up has got to be better, and consider opponents as well as playing to whatever strengths we have - at least a plan B.  We’ve got got to stop playing players constantly out of position and only basing team selection on trial and error.  And in game management has got to be better - making tactical tweaks and changes according to how the game is going and not randomly chucking extra strikers on (Chris Martin especially) when we are losing and totally disrupting the rhythm of the team. 

I thought at the end of last season that if we are in the bottom 6 by the time the World Cup break comes around, we probably need to be looking at management recruitment and putting plans in place.  If we’re still there by end of January then those plans need to be implemented because this club should be aspiring to better than bottom of the table finish, or even worse relegation. 

Still hoping for a good run of results and the achievement of greater consistency, but I think the next two games and then how we restart after the World Cup are going to be critical. 

 

 

 

This is a great summary for me.

And that restart after the World Cup is a run of 8 games in 2 months: 4 against teams currently below us, 3 against pretty mediocre mid table teams and only one against a top 10 team. Critical indeed, and takes us through to end Jan, so I think your timeframe may be about right in SLs mind. 

[Red Exile]

58 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

My whole point has been and remains that ,imo, Nige is not getting the best or making the most out of the players available as a team and this has been a hall mark of his tenure.  If Nige continues in a similar vein and is unable to create an average position from an average squad then SL will take action and make our differing points of view wholly redundant.

Despite it being painful to watch City at times I remain sympathetic to Nigel Pearson. Here he is, in one of the world's richer and more competitive leagues, at times being obliged to pick sides with a high percentage of young & often inexperienced players developed by the club. We might all want to believe - hope - that our youngsters will be world beaters but it doesn't seem very plausible that any club at our level will unearth a Championship-ready crop of early 20-something talent all in the same generation.  That we're not dead certs for relegation seems something of an achievement in the circumstances and testament to his man management experience, not least be cause he, we, they, know that we can't afford the wages of many of the more experienced players and we're actively trying to shift them on.

Your last point may be correct - in which case heaven help us because Lansdown's track record of manager picks is pretty abysmal. If we're currently in a mess it's a mess of his making - bet the house on his boy Lee and Mark Ashton...what folly!

Edited November 6, 2022 by Red Exile

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

26 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Despite it being painful to watch City at times I remain sympathetic to Nigel Pearson. Here he is, in one of the world's richer and more competitive leagues, at times being obliged to pick sides with a high percentage of young & often inexperienced players developed by the club. We might all want to believe - hope - that our youngsters will be world beaters but it doesn't seem very plausible that any club at our level will unearth a Championship-ready crop of early 20-something talent all in the same generation.  That we're not dead certs for relegation seems something of an achievement in the circumstances and testament to his man management experience, not least be cause he, we, they, know that we can't afford the wages of many of the more experienced players and we're actively trying to shift them on.

Your last point may be correct - in which case heaven help us because Lansdown's track record of manager picks is pretty abysmal. If we're currently in a mess it's a mess of his making - bet the house on his boy Lee and Mark Ashton...what folly!

SL made it crystal clear several years ago that the emphasis would be on bringing in players from the Academy and he has stuck with this, NP knew this when he took the job and credit where credit is due- he has ensured a pathway for the graduates.Some on merit and some due to circumstance. SL also said that this would  have to be the source of future funding for the club - he told it as it is. We will sell one or two and hopefully this will ease the mistakes of high spending.

It is little mentioned that whilst money was badly spent we did receive a significant dividend for Flint, Kelly, Brownhill ,Reid & Webster - three of which could still yet produce more vital income. Fam and Massengo have been really unfortunate situations but if someone wont sign a new contract what can anyone do?- it's how we got Naismith and is a problem for every club.

Our most saleable assets, imo, are now Scott, Conway & Semenyo but there are others coming through as well. Benerous could also be a great asset but that's an unknown. I think all the three mentioned players are in the side on merit not because there's no one else and would likely have a starting place in most Championship sides.

[Bodiesaffer]

17 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

I would say so, yes. They are 1 point above the relegation zone. 

What they have done is make a managerial change to address that. 

Their choice is a risky one, but a very astute one, I'd say. 

I'd replace NP with Michael Carrick in heartbeat. 

 

No all top players make good managers. Look at Steve Gerrard.

[italian dave]

12 hours ago, petehinton said:

Do you think many other managers would shrug and get on with the job at hand whilst having to play Tanner and Pring at CB?

People look at results and stat padding too much.  We were by far the better side in our last two days, and could very easily, and probably should be, looking at today as a draw after two comfortable wins. That’s the overarching difference here

That’s true, Pete, but the other way of looking at that is 

a) we didn’t make our superiority count, we didn’t get two comfortable wins, we got one point. 
b) Tanner and Pring both played well and contributed to that superiority - they were far from being just ‘stand in’ passengers: so why have both been sitting on the bench for most of the season? 

[Red-Robbo]

13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Sorry, but that’s how I feel.  If posters can be strong in their proclamations about those who are comfortable with Nige’s performances then I feel I can be strong in my comments back.

The position he took over in (end of Feb 2021) was at a point where the CEO had pissed off the players re contract situations (to then piss off himself), and the losses re the mismanagement of fees / wages (vs quality) and Covid weren’t in the public domain, we’d only seen a small portion of the covid impact in the accounts (for 19/20 season) as he took over.

How do you square £68m of losses borne from an irresponsible management regime, and expect to improve the squad, and therefore turn around from the inevitable downturn that had to happen, regardless of who was in charge.  Had Holden remained, I don’t believe we would’ve gone down either, we might’ve finished higher, but that summer was gonna be a cluster#### as the squad was gonna be decimated with little scope to improve.  That continued into the summer just gone too.

So, there you have my reasons why I said it!

 

Well said Fevs. 

I don't think Nigel Pearson is beyond criticism and I believe some of his substitutions in particular have been needless or overly cautious and have cost us, HOWEVER, you succinctly set out the big picture there. 

The bloke has been operating with so many limitations, leading to a small squad (and small squads get impacted more by injuries) and not necessarily a squad he'd choose. In fact, no "not necessarily" about it. His interviews make quite clear he can see our weaknesses. 

Given those challenges, the fact he has been able to improve the performance of a number of players and continues to introduce young players to the second tier of English football - and they've mostly held their own or better - is something we can all thank him for. 

[Engvall’s Splinter]

17 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

 

I'd replace NP with Michael Carrick in heartbeat. 

 

Based on what though? I don’t mean the replacing of Pearson, I’m asking why Carrick? And why in a heartbeat? What has he done to replace Pearson in a heartbeat?

[CiderJar]

12 hours ago, Dan Robin said:

I was reading the match report on the OS and....

Semenyo blazed his shit over the bar under pressure. 

To be honest if you are going to blaze it over the bar you have got to have built up a fair bit of pressure.

[Rob k]

13 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Based on what though? I don’t mean the replacing of Pearson, I’m asking why Carrick? And why in a heartbeat? What has he done to replace Pearson in a heartbeat?

This is the point isn’t it? It’s easy to say I’d replace NP and then you get a name given to you like Carrick? Why? 

[glynriley]

1 minute ago, Rob k said:

This is the point isn’t it? It’s easy to say I’d replace NP and then you get a name given to you like Carrick? Why? 

ABN

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I don't and didnt so keep to my stated words please, Dave.

where do you expect us to be?  Mid-table? 10th-14th kind of mid-table?

Of the last 36 points available to us we have picked up 9 points: 8 defeats, 3 draws and 2 wins. In the previous 8 games we won 5 , lost 2 and drew 1. That's not progress.

it’s 7 defeats btw

Based on your 8 game / 12 game split you see a downward trend.  But you can spin that however you want.

Game 9-12 - 1 pt

Game 13-16 - 6 pts

Game 17-20 - 2 pts

So you could argue we’ve had an up and down time in that general trend downwards.  It just points to how inconsistent we are.

I don’t disagree re downward trend, but did you really expect us to keep picking up points around the 2ppg mark…nobody in the Champ is doing that, let alone “mid-table expected Bristol City”.  We achieved 1.52ppg once since we came back up!  To base progress on a comparison of those opening 8 games vs next 12 is a bit selective also.  Why not just go 10 games v 10 games.  14 pts v 9 pts.

It is similar to last season - almost identical so I just don't see the progress you and others do. The worrying trend is we are losing too many games and if that is expressed by a % -so what? Facts are facts.

what do you expect, it’s pretty much the same players, and we’ve had a spell of injuries (and illness) in recent weeks.  People keep suggesting that myself and others are painting false pictures of progress, we aren’t, we are saying we are “surviving”, “getting by”, “doing ok against the backdrop”.

Progress is being measured by things like improving the finances whilst trying to move us into a place in the middle-eight.  We finished top of the bottom eight last season (17th).  I expect us to move into the middle-eight this season, but not much.

Progress is about developing players and getting value / minutes out of players that wouldn’t normally be expected, whilst still pushing into that middle-eight.  Vyner, Conway, O’Leary, are all exceeding expectations.  That’s also progress.  Of course we could’ve kept Palmer and Bakinson, and exercised O’Dowda’s excessive option (based on current climate), and maybe not been able to sign Naismith or Sykes or both.

Joe Williams has been available for every league game except his yellow card suspension.  That’s progress.  That’s a manager working with his medical team to improve fitness / availability.  That might sound hypocritical when I say we’ve had injuries, but the context is a small number of injuries against a small squad, it’s nothing like the volume of injuries in the past.  If I take (selectively) Benarous and Bajic out of the equation, we’ve had between 1-4 players injured.  That’s progress.  It just feels worse because we have such a trim squad.

You base progress on results.  Nige’s job is wider than results, and for me progress is maintaining our position in the league, hopefully improving it a bit, whilst doing all those things above.  If we’d recruited Rinomhota, Khadra, that CB Nige wanted, alongside the ones we did, I’d be less content.  But we didn’t, and we know why…skint…so my expectations are adjusted accordingly.

We have played more games than anyone below us and are 3 points clear of safety.

yeah, we aren’t in a great position. 

My whole point has been and remains that ,imo, Nige is not getting the best or making the most out of the players available as a team and this has been a hall mark of his tenure.  If Nige continues in a similar vein and is unable to create an average position from an average squad then SL will take action and make our differing points of view wholly redundant.

yep, he may well do that.  I’m just intrigued who SL thinks might want to join us as manager / head coach in our situation.

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Based on what though? I don’t mean the replacing of Pearson, I’m asking why Carrick? And why in a heartbeat? What has he done to replace Pearson in a heartbeat?

9 minutes ago, Rob k said:

This is the point isn’t it? It’s easy to say I’d replace NP and then you get a name given to you like Carrick? Why? 

I’d take Pep in a heartbeat!!!

Why would Carrick come to us in our current situation?  It’s bonkers to throw names out like that.  We are unattractive currently.  No scope to develop the squad with external recruitment as it stands.  That might change next summer if we sell Semenyo, Scott or Conway.  But I don’t think anybody takes us on in Nov 22 for fear of not getting to next summer.

[Engvall’s Splinter]

16 minutes ago, glynriley said:

ABN

I’ve had to Google this … Abnormally Bulbous Nipples?

 

Actually… Anyone but Nigel ? 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Engvall’s Splinter

[Tin Soldier]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’d take Pep in a heartbeat!!!

Why would Carrick come to us in our current situation?  It’s bonkers to throw names out like that.  We are unattractive currently.  No scope to develop the squad with external recruitment as it stands.  That might change next summer if we sell Semenyo, Scott or Conway.  But I don’t think anybody takes us on in Nov 22 for fear of not getting to next summer.

People need to take a reality check. I was lambasted for saying at the beginning of the season, we were in for a relegation fight. Talk of top 6 finish was just ridiculous. If the club stays up this year, that will be one hell of an achievement. Just look at some of the big name clubs near the bottom. Their squad is far stronger than City. We are now reaping the chaos of Ashton & Johnson's reign. SL will be regretting some of the decisions he allowed to happen. NP is doing a brilliant job in my book.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Tin Soldier

[TV Tom]

3 hours ago, Super said:

Why would anyone not care about the WC? Bizarre. 

I don’t

[firstdivision]

13 hours ago, petehinton said:

If anything, we’ll be in an even better place next year.  Kalas, Bentley, JD will all be top 5 earners; the former never fit, and the latter not rated. We’ll inevitably get huge money for Scott and/or Semenyo.  Combine those things with the ability we’ve had to get some of the better quality free transfers and it’s a very very good mix. 

That’s certainly possible. But depends on the quality of our recruitment. TBD. But we’ll most likely lose quite a few so have to rebuild.  And that could bring with it more jeopardy not less.

My main point is that NP did not inherit that bad a squad. Most of it was injured. That was the primary cause of the slump. 

We shed, it seems, most of the players NP wanted to get rid of (Pato, O’Dowda, Nagy, Palmer, Bakinson) and not many we didn’t (Diedhiou - well, for no fee anyway). And he’s added some solid players to an expensively-assembled  squad (a squad that was in the top six before Covid struck, lest we forget, under the, er, clearly totally incompetent Lee Johnson - if I’m allowed to mention the name of someone so, er, rightfully reviled for taking us to a cup semi-final and giving us the best chance of promotion since his dad nearly did it ten years before). I find the Animal Farm-esque Johnson bad, Pearson good argument so lacking in nuance. 
 

Edited November 6, 2022 by firstdivision

[Swede]

World Cup?!? Played in a country with no football culture, with terrible human rights issues, that bribed its way to get selected. Having to be played at a time of the year when its less hot but still too hot and mid season for all competing nations. A total disregard for the athletes competing and the fans watching. It sums up all that is bad about football.

[MC RISK77]

9 minutes ago, Swede said:

World Cup?!? Played in a country with no football culture, with terrible human rights issues, that bribed its way to get selected. Having to be played at a time of the year when its less hot but still too hot and mid season for all competing nations. A total disregard for the athletes competing and the fans watching. It sums up all that is bad about football.

Yeah that was my point mate- just feels like their is no buzz about this World Cup at all currently.

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, Tin Soldier said:

People need to take a reality check. I was lambasted for saying at the beginning of the season, we were in for a relegation fight. Talk of top 6 finish was just ridiculous. If the club stays up this year, that will be one hell of an achievement. Just look at some of the big name clubs near the bottom. Their squad is far stronger than City. We are now reaping the chaos of Ashton & Johnson's reign. SL will be regretting some of the decisions he allowed to happen. NP is doing a brilliant job in my book.

FWIW I don’t think he’s doing a brilliant job, but I’m pretty happy with how he’s steering this ship through difficult times.

12 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

That’s certainly possible. But depends on the quality of our recruitment. TBD. But we’ll most likely lose quite a few so have to rebuild.  And that could bring with it more jeopardy not less.

My main point is that NP did not inherit that bad a squad. Most of it was injured. That was the primary cause of the slump. 

We shed, it seems, most of the players NP wanted to get rid of (Pato, O’Dowda, Nagy, Palmer, Bakinson) and not many we didn’t (Diedhiou - well, for no fee anyway). And he’s added some solid players to an expensively-assembled  squad (a squad that was in the top six before Covid struck, lest we forget, under the, er, clearly totally incompetent Lee Johnson - if I’m allowed to mention the name of someone so, er, rightfully reviled for taking us to a cup semi-final and giving us the best chance of promotion since his dad nearly did it ten years before). I find the Animal Farm-esque Johnson bad, Pearson good argument so lacking in nuance. 
 

Recruitment will be key.

Johnson wasn’t bad at all, but he wasn’t half a bloke who divided us.  He even divided me!!!  I liked some of the things he did, I disliked other things.

I do think he’d had his peak with us and it was long gone.  He couldn’t recreate 17/18.  The 18/19 season although finishing higher was not of the same calibre, and although we were 7th (after drawing with Fulham) as Covid struck, I think we were hanging on by our finger nails, as results were better than performances and had been for a long while.  It caught up with us / him post-covid and we fell back to 12th.

It was always going to be difficult to to compete with 5-8 parachute payment teams, but boy we spent some money trying to compete.

We hear RG talk about top 10 wages, but that’s coupled with bottom-end fees, I.e. free transfers.  We were spending £8m on a CB and paying top 6 wages to certain players.  We spent £25m(ish) on players in 19/20, not including loan fees, not including agent fees, not including the wage bill going up too.  It was the big push to playoffs.  And playoffs doesn’t mean promotion.  We tried to buy success.  We got carried away…and boy has it bitten us on the arse!

[petehinton]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

That’s true, Pete, but the other way of looking at that is 

a) we didn’t make our superiority count, we didn’t get two comfortable wins, we got one point. 
b) Tanner and Pring both played well and contributed to that superiority - they were far from being just ‘stand in’ passengers: so why have both been sitting on the bench for most of the season? 

Course, but I don’t see how multiple players missing multiple chances is down to Pearson. In the same way that Vyner’s multiple misplaced passes that gave Boro chances weren’t too. 
 

Pring 100% should’ve been involved earlier, big fan. Tanner, honestly I’m not so sure. Good player, but not sure he could’ve been much more involved up until now really. Sykes has been solid, and Wilson was naturally always gonna be ahead of him after coming in over the solid. 

[petehinton]

20 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

That’s certainly possible. But depends on the quality of our recruitment. TBD. But we’ll most likely lose quite a few so have to rebuild.  And that could bring with it more jeopardy not less.

My main point is that NP did not inherit that bad a squad. Most of it was injured. That was the primary cause of the slump. 

We shed, it seems, most of the players NP wanted to get rid of (Pato, O’Dowda, Nagy, Palmer, Bakinson) and not many we didn’t (Diedhiou - well, for no fee anyway). And he’s added some solid players to an expensively-assembled  squad (a squad that was in the top six before Covid struck, lest we forget, under the, er, clearly totally incompetent Lee Johnson - if I’m allowed to mention the name of someone so, er, rightfully reviled for taking us to a cup semi-final and giving us the best chance of promotion since his dad nearly did it ten years before). I find the Animal Farm-esque Johnson bad, Pearson good argument so lacking in nuance. 
 

For sure, but Pearson’s recruitment has been very good. Per capita, far better than LJ & Ashton. So that’s where my positivity comes in. 
 

He didn’t inherit an awful squad by any means, but he inherited a total ******* mess of players who were really taking the piss with awful attitudes on big money. That’s what takes the longest to change and that’s why it’s taken us 18 months for him to be remotely happier with the make up of the squad now. 
 

I’ve said before I agree you can’t just point it to LJ, you point it at the whole overarching mess that was allowed in his last season + Holden’s tenure. The squad was enormous, mismatched and expensive. Holden was a massive push over that allowed a culture of taking the piss. Ashton added expensive players we didn’t need to an already bloated squad, and that hits the finances more. The medical team ruined half of our squad, to a point where we’re still monitoring the likes of Williams to play 3 games in a week. 
 

The only players we are likely to get big cash for now, are the ones that are/have flourished under Pearson. Having 7/8 academy players in the last few squads is a huge huge positive, for people who care about that anyway. I don’t think many other managers do that. To hinge it back to LJ, he absolutely wouldn’t. Palmer would still be here and playing over Scott. Pearson is making the best of our situation imo, in his ideal world would we still be relying on the likes of Vyner and Dasilva? Definitely not, but as he said in the fans forum, that’s all we can do so we have to make do with that until we have the option to improve 

[Super]

14 minutes ago, MC RISK77 said:

Yeah that was my point mate- just feels like their is no buzz about this World Cup at all currently.

There will be once it starts.

[Davefevs]

Well said @petehinton

[firstdivision]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

FWIW I don’t think he’s doing a brilliant job, but I’m pretty happy with how he’s steering this ship through difficult times.

Recruitment will be key.

Johnson wasn’t bad at all, but he wasn’t half a bloke who divided us.  He even divided me!!!  I liked some of the things he did, I disliked other things.

I do think he’d had his peak with us and it was long gone.  He couldn’t recreate 17/18.  The 18/19 season although finishing higher was not of the same calibre, and although we were 7th (after drawing with Fulham) as Covid struck, I think we were hanging on by our finger nails, as results were better than performances and had been for a long while.  It caught up with us / him post-covid and we fell back to 12th.

It was always going to be difficult to to compete with 5-8 parachute payment teams, but boy we spent some money trying to compete.

We hear RG talk about top 10 wages, but that’s coupled with bottom-end fees, I.e. free transfers.  We were spending £8m on a CB and paying top 6 wages to certain players.  We spent £25m(ish) on players in 19/20, not including loan fees, not including agent fees, not including the wage bill going up too.  It was the big push to playoffs.  And playoffs doesn’t mean promotion.  We tried to buy success.  We got carried away…and boy has it bitten us on the arse!

Careful, Dave. Admitting LJ wasn't all bad will get you some negative emojis on here. 

LJ could drive me mad as well - which manager wouldn't from time to time? - but I've always disliked the polarised nature of the LJ (bad) and NP (obviously good) debate among some. 

[The Coach]

Given the resources available. Lee Johnson is our worst manager I’ve seen at AG.

If Pearson had the resources Johnson had. I’d be confident we would be playing in the Premier League or at least got a taste of it. 

[NcnsBcfc]

2 minutes ago, The Coach said:

Given the resources available. Lee Johnson is our worst manager I’ve seen at AG.

If Pearson had the resources Johnson had. I’d be confident we would be playing in the Premier League or at least got a taste of it. 

I think the phrase that was used at the time was "clubs in the bag".

Certainly, we seemed to be collecting players under MA/LJ in order to carry on the perceived second-hand dealer conveyor belt approach towards buying and selling players. In the process we build up a large squad, that really didn't improve us much as a team.

Then when the market crashed, followed by covid, we had to have proverbial fire sales of fringe players that were nowhere near good enough. Impacting on our balance sheet in such a substantial way that 3 years later we are still dealing with the aftereffects.

Looking back at those days now, the direct transfer of Webster for Flint seemed to be the only well thought out one that would improve the squad. The others were as the above saying were just "clubs in the bag".

We really should have gone for quality over quantity with the transfer money bought into the club. But that would have gone against the transfer policy that MA used to in his own way bring perceived "sustainability" to the club as a whole.

It really was a pack of cards, and one that was doomed to failure over time, when the cupboards were bare.

Ho hum, roll on the summer, and let the rebuild continue........

[glynriley]

12 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Careful, Dave. Admitting LJ wasn't all bad will get you some negative emojis on here. 

LJ could drive me mad as well - which manager wouldn't from time to time? - but I've always disliked the polarised nature of the LJ (bad) and NP (obviously good) debate among some. 

 

9 minutes ago, The Coach said:

Given the resources available. Lee Johnson is our worst manager I’ve seen at AG.

If Pearson had the resources Johnson had. I’d be confident we would be playing in the Premier League or at least got a taste of it. 

The polarisation with LJ is with the money spent. For a self confessed ‘coach’ LJ was quick to discard a player and buy / loan a replacement. See the likes of Walsh, Moore, Szmodics, Eisa etc..
 

NP is not a coach, he’s a manager, yet is getting more from young players and fringe players than LJ could. 
 

Ironically, the best we looked under LJ was when he had a smaller squad to play with and had to actually do some coaching. His problem came when when he had multiple choices, and he was then to quick to discard players rather than working with them. 
 

NP would give his eye teeth to have half of the funds available to LJ (68 players signed was it?). Instead he’s inherited a problem 5 years in the making, but is expected to sort it all out in 20 months. 

[Bar BS3]

2 hours ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Based on what though? I don’t mean the replacing of Pearson, I’m asking why Carrick? And why in a heartbeat? What has he done to replace Pearson in a heartbeat?

Purely on a hunch - as I said, it's a big risk appointment - but I think it's a shred one. 

High profile, but not glamorous. He's a switched on guy, who knows the game. 

It will be interesting to see how it pans out - but I have the feeling he's going to be a good appointment/have a good managerial career. 

[Midred]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I’d take Pep in a heartbeat!!!

Why would Carrick come to us in our current situation?  It’s bonkers to throw names out like that.  We are unattractive currently.  No scope to develop the squad with external recruitment as it stands.  That might change next summer if we sell Semenyo, Scott or Conway.  But I don’t think anybody takes us on in Nov 22 for fear of not getting to next summer.

As has been said before, how good would the premier league managers be in an average club in the championship or below without access to some of the most expensive players in the world. 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

yep, he may well do that.  I’m just intrigued who SL thinks might want to join us as manager / head coach in our situation.

Me too.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Me too.

What type of manager with what background and experience would you want?

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, firstdivision said:

Careful, Dave. Admitting LJ wasn't all bad will get you some negative emojis on here. 

LJ could drive me mad as well - which manager wouldn't from time to time? - but I've always disliked the polarised nature of the LJ (bad) and NP (obviously good) debate among some. 

 

1 hour ago, The Coach said:

Given the resources available. Lee Johnson is our worst manager I’ve seen at AG.

If Pearson had the resources Johnson had. I’d be confident we would be playing in the Premier League or at least got a taste of it. 

100% @firstdivision. 

And I’ve often thought that one of the problems was that LJ didn’t have control of the resources. And the person who did was driven by money not football. 

It’s pure conjecture, but I’d have loved to have seen LJ minus Ashton and with a proper football person as a DoF, or something similar. I’d be equally confident that we’d be playing in the PL in that scenario. 

My sneaking feeling is that those things that went on that LJ once said he could write a book about were about players coming and going without his involvement.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

What type of manager with what background and experience would you want?

I'm not Steve Lansdown- I've never appointed a manager. I can tell you what pies I think should be sold or what beer and cider should be served but even that is controversial as every bugger has their own personal preference. The average Championship Manager lasts between 2 and 3 seasons for one reason or another but usually due to a lack of results. Unless there's a secret club, I dont think any fan has ever had any input on managerial appointments.

Let's say, for arguments sake, I came up with a name - so what? You might agree and others might not but only one man makes the final decision of who is the target and then only one man decides if he wants the job. "We" dont  get an input- thankfully.

What is it about the right to criticise the performance of a Manager is invariably countered with the question of who you would appoint instead? I haven't a clue Dave- and despite my criticism, I have not once during the past Summer or this season  stated that I want Pearson out. I just want to see progress with what we have and from my point of view just don't see it as many others do. I pay my money and have my opinions at what I see. It is rarely the fans who make the decision to sack a Manager and never the fans who make the appointment.The only place you get 100% agreement is in a referendum  when putin is conducting it.

SL will make the decision about what he wants or who he wants but in the meantime , I'd just like to see Nige making progress and whilst that isnt happening, I'll continue to say it as I see it. In the meantime our back and forth is becoming a bit 'ground hog day'!

The good news is that if I'm wrong then it will be because City are on the up again which is the only thing I want to see

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, petehinton said:

Course, but I don’t see how multiple players missing multiple chances is down to Pearson. In the same way that Vyner’s multiple misplaced passes that gave Boro chances weren’t too. 
 

Pring 100% should’ve been involved earlier, big fan. Tanner, honestly I’m not so sure. Good player, but not sure he could’ve been much more involved up until now really. Sykes has been solid, and Wilson was naturally always gonna be ahead of him after coming in over the solid. 

No, I get that - just pointing out that there are two ways to look at it! 

Ultimately, yes it’s NPs fault of he keeps picking those players. But I’m not suggesting we’re at that point yet by any means. We’ve been top scorers in the league, and Vyner has been one of our best players for several weeks now.

I’m not as convinced by Sykes as you. And certainly not as an attacking force - and if yesterday was anything to go by that’s what the main purpose of our wing backs is! 

And, incidentally, if by “multiple” you mean more than one then maybe, but it wasn’t lots and it’s very unfair to lay that solely on Vyner yesterday. You can argue about his positional play, but in terms of misplaced passes he was no worse than Klose or James just for starters. 

[pillred]

9 hours ago, MC RISK77 said:

Christ what a different place this will be with two wins next week, before we can all have a month off watching a World Cup that no one seems to give a toss about right now.

Getting to 26 points if we beat stoke will cement mid table and allow all our injured players time to fully recuperate.

 

Aren't we playing Watford next Sat? 

[sticks 1969]

2 hours ago, Super said:

There will be once it starts.

Totally agree IF we get of to a good start the buzz soon comes back 

[IAmNick]

33 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I'm not Steve Lansdown- I've never appointed a manager. I can tell you what pies I think should be sold or what beer and cider should be served but even that is controversial as every bugger has their own personal preference. The average Championship Manager lasts between 2 and 3 seasons for one reason or another but usually due to a lack of results. Unless there's a secret club, I dont think any fan has ever had any input on managerial appointments.

Let's say, for arguments sake, I came up with a name - so what? You might agree and others might not but only one man makes the final decision of who is the target and then only one man decides if he wants the job. "We" dont  get an input- thankfully.

What is it about the right to criticise the performance of a Manager is invariably countered with the question of who you would appoint instead? I haven't a clue Dave- and despite my criticism, I have not once during the past Summer or this season  stated that I want Pearson out. I just want to see progress with what we have and from my point of view just don't see it as many others do. I pay my money and have my opinions at what I see. It is rarely the fans who make the decision to sack a Manager and never the fans who make the appointment.The only place you get 100% agreement is in a referendum  when putin is conducting it.

SL will make the decision about what he wants or who he wants but in the meantime , I'd just like to see Nige making progress and whilst that isnt happening, I'll continue to say it as I see it. In the meantime our back and forth is becoming a bit 'ground hog day'!

The good news is that if I'm wrong then it will be because City are on the up again which is the only thing I want to see

I think the "so what" is to have a discussion about it, not that anyone expects you to be actually picking the new manager for the club. That's not a weird question to follow up with for me when someone thinks the manager isn't doing well enough.

I think in a few steps:

Are there managers out there who would do better than Pearson? Yes, definitely. He's not the greatest manager in the world, obviously.

Would they be interested by Bristol City? Some, probably.

Would they work under the intense financial constraints? A few, perhaps.

Would they also be capable of having the experience/input into the rest of the club as Pearson is? Mmmm, maybe a couple?

It's a big combination of factors that I think Pearson is about as good as it's going to be for now. Someone may just get the first team performing a bit better, but if that's at the expense of the other work that's a short term view for me. Each step in our chain above severely reduces the candidates.

Of course though I'm not saying nobody else could do the above, but I reckon we'd be taking a serious gamble and if it didn't pay off (and the odds would be pretty low) it'd be disaster, relegation, and god knows what - as it was the last couple of times we were in a similar situation.

I think that's partly why people want to know who you think would be a good replacement - we have a lot of boxes we need ticking, encompassing a really varied role compared to the manager/head coach at other clubs. It's a pretty small list imo.

Edited November 6, 2022 by IAmNick

[MC RISK77]

32 minutes ago, pillred said:

Aren't we playing Watford next Sat? 

Yeah we are I have had it as stoke in my head forever for some reason.

[Davefevs]

50 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I'm not Steve Lansdown- I've never appointed a manager. I can tell you what pies I think should be sold or what beer and cider should be served but even that is controversial as every bugger has their own personal preference. The average Championship Manager lasts between 2 and 3 seasons for one reason or another but usually due to a lack of results.

I think it’s less than that!

Unless there's a secret club, I dont think any fan has ever had any input on managerial appointments.

Let's say, for arguments sake, I came up with a name - so what? You might agree and others might not but only one man makes the final decision of who is the target and then only one man decides if he wants the job. "We" dont  get an input- thankfully.

I’m not asking you for a name, I agree we’d all have varying opinions on each side of the fence, I’m asking you for a type…or a set of of characteristics, qualities, etc you would want.  If you give a name, give it in the context of a type.  E.g. “I’d like a Paul Warne type, promotions on his cv, works to a budget, brings on young players, gets on with it, doesn’t moan, etc”.  That’s what kind of reply I was looking for?

I wanted a Paul Cook-type when LJ was sacked.  Preferably Paul Cook himself!!

What is it about the right to criticise the performance of a Manager is invariably countered with the question of who you would appoint instead? I haven't a clue Dave- and despite my criticism, I have not once during the past Summer or this season  stated that I want Pearson out. I just want to see progress with what we have and from my point of view just don't see it as many others do. I pay my money and have my opinions at what I see. It is rarely the fans who make the decision to sack a Manager and never the fans who make the appointment.The only place you get 100% agreement is in a referendum  when putin is conducting it.

SL will make the decision about what he wants or who he wants but in the meantime , I'd just like to see Nige making progress and whilst that isnt happening, I'll continue to say it as I see it. In the meantime our back and forth is becoming a bit 'ground hog day'!

do you accept any of my points about “progress” in different areas of Nige’s remit or are you “results is pretty much the be-all and end-all”?

The good news is that if I'm wrong then it will be because City are on the up again which is the only thing I want to see

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

29 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

do you accept any of my points about “progress” in different areas of Nige’s remit or are you “results is pretty much the be-all and end-all”?

Absolutely-he accepted a poison chalice. He has had to make some hard decisions and has made progress off the field. He is another Sean O'Driscoll and will probably go the same way due to results on the field .

[E.G.Red]

4 hours ago, Swede said:

World Cup?!? Played in a country with no football culture, with terrible human rights issues, that bribed its way to get selected. Having to be played at a time of the year when its less hot but still too hot and mid season for all competing nations. A total disregard for the athletes competing and the fans watching. It sums up all that is bad about football.

Unfortunately I suspect that if England (or Wales)do well, many of these issues will be forgotten about by the vast majority of fans. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by E.G.Red