Drugs At Football

[italian dave]

47 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

 

Thanks. What about the gangs involved in actually getting people here though? Haven’t they become much more prevalent in that as other nationalities and other routes have been shut down? Not just here but across Europe? 

[Sheltons Army]

9 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Thanks. What about the gangs involved in actually getting people here though? Haven’t they become much more prevalent in that as other nationalities and other routes have been shut down? Not just here but across Europe? 

The people smuggling networks side  not my area of deep knowledge Dave tbh 

(And tbh I don’t want this to become a la politics forum with any personal views)

But drugs wise , the Albanians have muscled in , in the last 20 years or so

They are ,of course , just one of many routes and networks , but their organisation and violence makes them significant 

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Sheltons Army

[8 men had a dream]

12 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

. . .

* You make a valid point about the Albanians , though they are only one strand of the problem , albeit a significant one 

Nearly % 50 of migrants crossing the English channel on boats and dinghies are Albanians -

Not people fleeing a war or conflict , but economic , and , many , criminal migrants -

I thought your statistic was completely wrong about the % of Albanians...

But you're right. 

This year has seen the % change from the first half of the year of 18% to the period May - September rising to 42%. Quite astounding...

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/factsheet-small-boat-crossings-since-july-2022/factsheet-small-boat-crossings-since-july-2022

[Champfan45]

I won't name names but there are several regular posters on here that will be very put out by this. Personally I will have to remember to leave my 4 foot tall bong pipe at home next time 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Champfan45

[italian dave]

12 hours ago, 8 men had a dream said:

I thought your statistic was completely wrong about the % of Albanians...

But you're right. 

This year has seen the % change from the first half of the year of 18% to the period May - September rising to 42%. Quite astounding...

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/factsheet-small-boat-crossings-since-july-2022/factsheet-small-boat-crossings-since-july-2022

It's a massive increase: thanks for posting that link - it's the "ad-hoc" interim figures that the Full Fact article above referred to. Both articles suggest that the next regular issue (I assume covering Jan to Sept) will be published on the 24th.

(The other really striking number in there is that huge difference between (Albanian) male and female genuine cases 15% for men and 90% for women.

I can't quite work out why they've used some of the dates they have in that factsheet. It's headlined "since July", presumably because the last full set of published data went up to end June. But I can't see that it gives any actual figures from July - it just uses a random May to September 5 month period. The last full release covered some of that period (May and June) and the overall (Jan to June) figure for Albanian nationals then was 17% - so on that basis you'd assume that July to September it was likely higher than 42%. Probably nearer to or even above @Sheltons Armys 50%. But I'm not a statistician!

Also, that May to June period must have been when the majority of crossings this year took place, so it seems likely that when we get the final figures for the whole year it's going to be around 30-40%? Which would mean very broad numbers this year are likely to be similar to last year from countries other than Albania, and the whole of the increased number this year being represented by Albanian nationals.

All of which simply underlines the need to get the system sorted out from the mess that its been allowed to become. To process claims quickly and fairly. To get the genuine claims (which still make up the majority) settled and out of the awful conditions. To get those who have no right to be here back to Albania or wherever they've come from. 

It's worth remembering that the UK still deals with tiny numbers of claims compared to most other countries in Europe. There's no excuse for us managing it so poorly. 

[Red-Robbo]

21 minutes ago, italian dave said:

It's a massive increase: thanks for posting that link - it's the "ad-hoc" interim figures that the Full Fact article above referred to. Both articles suggest that the next regular issue (I assume covering Jan to Sept) will be published on the 24th.

(The other really striking number in there is that huge difference between (Albanian) male and female genuine cases 15% for men and 90% for women.

I can't quite work out why they've used some of the dates they have in that factsheet. It's headlined "since July", presumably because the last full set of published data went up to end June. But I can't see that it gives any actual figures from July - it just uses a random May to September 5 month period. The last full release covered some of that period (May and June) and the overall (Jan to June) figure for Albanian nationals then was 17% - so on that basis you'd assume that July to September it was likely higher than 42%. Probably nearer to or even above @Sheltons Armys 50%. But I'm not a statistician!

Also, that May to June period must have been when the majority of crossings this year took place, so it seems likely that when we get the final figures for the whole year it's going to be around 30-40%? Which would mean very broad numbers this year are likely to be similar to last year from countries other than Albania, and the whole of the increased number this year being represented by Albanian nationals.

All of which simply underlines the need to get the system sorted out from the mess that its been allowed to become. To process claims quickly and fairly. To get the genuine claims (which still make up the majority) settled and out of the awful conditions. To get those who have no right to be here back to Albania or wherever they've come from. 

It's worth remembering that the UK still deals with tiny numbers of claims compared to most other countries in Europe. There's no excuse for us managing it so poorly. 

 

As Dave will know, there are many, many more Albanians in Italy than those coming to the UK. Some estimates suggest 800,000 there.  If you've stopped to buy fags or sweets from an Italian tabacchi recently, it's likely an Albanian served you.  

[italian dave]

28 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

As Dave will know, there are many, many more Albanians in Italy than those coming to the UK. Some estimates suggest 800,000 there.  If you've stopped to buy fags or sweets from an Italian tabacchi recently, it's likely an Albanian served you.  

Indeed. And during the summer an Albanian mechanic came to my rescue when I had a puncture in Switzerland. And when it transpired that he didn't take credit cards, took me on a tour of the many Albanian businesses (mostly kebab shops!) in the local town!

That population seemed to have settled there after the Balkans war and is a reminder of how many Albanian nationals are mixed up in the whole complex ethnic mix of the Balkans and how many were displaced during that war.

[spudski]

It's sad isn't it...that so many people have to rely on drugs to be happy, feel good about themselves or take them purely to exist. 

Surely it's the system that's broke. The system that makes people need drugs to be happy, have a good time, exist etc etc. That's what needs sorting. Gangs and supply are just sticking a plaster over a deep wound.

Re Cocaine...when you first take it, you experience euphoria. And your brain ' rewires' itself. After that initial rewiring...you never ever feel that same euphoric state again, regardless of how much you take. It's highly addictive, and people are chasing a feeling they will never experience again. Then you have the coming down and severe depression to deal with.

It's a fecked up situation.

I've never seen so many ' normal' people, from all walks of life, dependent on it to have a good time. To openly talk about it, like it's normal. It really has taken a hold. 

I wonder how much of the Albanian drug money is going back into their own country?

I noticed recently that Albanian has now become the next best holiday destination. With, beach clubs, bars and gorgeous blue seas and bays to enjoy. Very much like parts of Greece.

Whilst their economy and country is starting to thrive...ours is going to the dogs. 

 

[Red-Robbo]

10 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Indeed. And during the summer an Albanian mechanic came to my rescue when I had a puncture in Switzerland. And when it transpired that he didn't take credit cards, took me on a tour of the many Albanian businesses (mostly kebab shops!) in the local town!

That population seemed to have settled there after the Balkans war and is a reminder of how many Albanian nationals are mixed up in the whole complex ethnic mix of the Balkans and how many were displaced during that war.

 

Yup, probably even more - as a percentage of population - in Switzerland than Italy. Xhaka and Shaqiri are only two of a number of Albanian-Swiss footballers to represent the country.  

[Clutton Caveman]

On 05/11/2022 at 09:08, Rocking Red Cyril said:

All a bit pointless and missing the point I feel. Those wishing to cause trouble will do it anyway. And the major problem drug is Alcohol. Which is legal and heavily taxed so encouraged . Just more hypocrisy and lack of common sense in our laws from what I can see.

What would be common sense for this matter out of interest?

[GrahamC]

17 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Indeed. And during the summer an Albanian mechanic came to my rescue when I had a puncture in Switzerland. And when it transpired that he didn't take credit cards, took me on a tour of the many Albanian businesses (mostly kebab shops!) in the local town!

That population seemed to have settled there after the Balkans war and is a reminder of how many Albanian nationals are mixed up in the whole complex ethnic mix of the Balkans and how many were displaced during that war.

Forgive my ignorance but how were Albanian nationals impacted by a war that never involved their country?

I know there are Kosovan Albanians & they would have been & because Albania is so poor the prospect of living somewhere like Switzerland (hence Shaquiri & Xhaka’s parents going there) makes a lot of sense.

The pan Yugoslav wars never touched Albania though, it would have made far more sense if Bosnians were fleeing here, but they didn’t (well, not to the UK).

[Clutton Caveman]

15 minutes ago, spudski said:

It's sad isn't it...that so many people have to rely on drugs to be happy, feel good about themselves or take them purely to exist. 

Surely it's the system that's broke. The system that makes people need drugs to be happy, have a good time, exist etc etc. That's what needs sorting. Gangs and supply are just sticking a plaster over a deep wound.

Re Cocaine...when you first take it, you experience euphoria. And your brain ' rewires' itself. After that initial rewiring...you never ever feel that same euphoric state again, regardless of how much you take. It's highly addictive, and people are chasing a feeling they will never experience again. Then you have the coming down and severe depression to deal with.

It's a fecked up situation.

I've never seen so many ' normal' people, from all walks of life, dependent on it to have a good time. To openly talk about it, like it's normal. It really has taken a hold. 

I wonder how much of the Albanian drug money is going back into their own country?

I noticed recently that Albanian has now become the next best holiday destination. With, beach clubs, bars and gorgeous blue seas and bays to enjoy. Very much like parts of Greece.

Whilst their economy and country is starting to thrive...ours is going to the dogs. 

 

I think you have not been to Albania. If you had, you would not make your comment. Massive corruption, virtually no welfare or health system, woman treated worse than dogs. I think people are not happy because they have unrealistic expectations of life. They feel down so they spend, this leads to debt so they feel more down and turn to other things. I think as a society we need to be realistic about our lives. If there is a problem and you can fix it do so. If not accept and learn to take pleasure from the simple things around you.

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Forgive my ignorance but how were Albanian nationals impacted by a war that never involved their country?

I know there are Kosovan Albanians & they would have been & because Albania is so poor the prospect of living somewhere like Switzerland (hence Shaquiri & Xhaka’s parents going there) makes a lot of sense.

The pan Yugoslav wars never touched Albania though, it would have made far more sense if Bosnians were fleeing here, but they didn’t (well, not to the UK).

 

There are Bosnian refugees here, one works in my local boozer as a cook, but not as many as in places like Germany and Sweden.

Most Albanians now are purely economic migrants and while we have shortages of unskilled labour, I have no problems with them coming over on temporary visas. The applications should be sifted and sorted through a process under way in Albania, not in the UK with folk forbidden to work for years while their cases are decided and, in the meantime, having to be boarded at government expense. 

[Rebounder]

I'd love to see the evidence that cocaine rewires your Brain after the first line as it's not something that I've come across. 

It stimulates Dopamine production. Putting across that it's one line and your addicted is obviously not true. Though repeated exposure and excessive use can cause significant problems especially when combined with other substances like alcohol. 

36 minutes ago, spudski said:

It's sad isn't it...that so many people have to rely on drugs to be happy, feel good about themselves or take them purely to exist. 

Surely it's the system that's broke. The system that makes people need drugs to be happy, have a good time, exist etc etc. That's what needs sorting. Gangs and supply are just sticking a plaster over a deep wound.

Re Cocaine...when you first take it, you experience euphoria. And your brain ' rewires' itself. After that initial rewiring...you never ever feel that same euphoric state again, regardless of how much you take. It's highly addictive, and people are chasing a feeling they will never experience again. Then you have the coming down and severe depression to deal with.

It's a fecked up situation.

I've never seen so many ' normal' people, from all walks of life, dependent on it to have a good time. To openly talk about it, like it's normal. It really has taken a hold. 

I wonder how much of the Albanian drug money is going back into their own country?

I noticed recently that Albanian has now become the next best holiday destination. With, beach clubs, bars and gorgeous blue seas and bays to enjoy. Very much like parts of Greece.

Whilst their economy and country is starting to thrive...ours is going to the dogs. 

 

Out of interest do you feel the same about alcohol, or were you including that when you said people need drugs to have a good time?

The vast majority of people use drugs and alcohol because they enjoy the affects and they don't develop any long term problems. Some do go on to develop problems for lots of  reasons, but simply painting it as a way to escape/self medicate ignores the many different reasons people have always used drugs. 

The system is broken though I agree. One of the biggest barriers people face to accessing proper support for their mental health and substance use is the stigma around it. 

[italian dave]

33 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Forgive my ignorance but how were Albanian nationals impacted by a war that never involved their country?

I know there are Kosovan Albanians & they would have been & because Albania is so poor the prospect of living somewhere like Switzerland (hence Shaquiri & Xhaka’s parents going there) makes a lot of sense.

The pan Yugoslav wars never touched Albania though, it would have made far more sense if Bosnians were fleeing here, but they didn’t (well, not to the UK).

Sorry - yes, you're right - my poor wording - ethnic Albanians not Albanian nationals.

[lenred]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Forgive my ignorance but how were Albanian nationals impacted by a war that never involved their country?

I know there are Kosovan Albanians & they would have been & because Albania is so poor the prospect of living somewhere like Switzerland (hence Shaquiri & Xhaka’s parents going there) makes a lot of sense.

The pan Yugoslav wars never touched Albania though, it would have made far more sense if Bosnians were fleeing here, but they didn’t (well, not to the UK).

Some did.  One of my better half’s best friends is a Bosnian refugee who came over after her father was assassinated on their front door step during the war.  

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I think you have not been to Albania. If you had, you would not make your comment. Massive corruption, virtually no welfare or health system, woman treated worse than dogs. I think people are not happy because they have unrealistic expectations of life. They feel down so they spend, this leads to debt so they feel more down and turn to other things. I think as a society we need to be realistic about our lives. If there is a problem and you can fix it do so. If not accept and learn to take pleasure from the simple things around you.

I have visited Albania, when I was staying in Kassiopi, Corfu. And yes, it was awful.

But now...our own foreign office states it's a safe place to visit. And the tourist side of things is really being pushed. It has some incredibly unspoilt coastline now being developed for exclusive and ' normal' holidays. 

Your description could be said of places like India or Sri Lanka, which many visit to tour or holiday.

Some details. https://www.chasingthedonkey.com/what-to-do-on-the-albanian-riviera-guide/

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Rebounder said:

I'd love to see the evidence that cocaine rewires your Brain after the first line as it's not something that I've come across. 

It stimulates Dopamine production. Putting across that it's one line and your addicted is obviously not true. Though repeated exposure and excessive use can cause significant problems especially when combined with other substances like alcohol. 

Out of interest do you feel the same about alcohol, or were you including that when you said people need drugs to have a good time?

The vast majority of people use drugs and alcohol because they enjoy the affects and they don't develop any long term problems. Some do go on to develop problems for lots of  reasons, but simply painting it as a way to escape/self medicate ignores the many different reasons people have always used drugs. 

The system is broken though I agree. One of the biggest barriers people face to accessing proper support for their mental health and substance use is the stigma around it. 

There are plenty of studies on the net that have come to the conclusion that it does re wire the brain. If you have time, take a look. You don't get addicted on one hit. The addiction comes from trying to get that first experience again. You take more searching...that's when the addiction happens. The depression that comes with it is worse. As you end up on all sorts of drugs and medication to feel ' normal' again.

Yes...there are many addictive traits...drugs, smoking, alcohol. 

It's often the affects of over indulging in these that not only affects oneself, but also others around them. Family, friends...to the people involved in making and distributing drugs. There's no positive outcome. 

Finding alternate methods that aren't harmful, to fill the void, is the answer. 

[Rebounder]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

There are plenty of studies on the net that have come to the conclusion that it does re wire the brain. If you have time, take a look. You don't get addicted on one hit. The addiction comes from trying to get that first experience again. You take more searching...that's when the addiction happens. The depression that comes with it is worse. As you end up on all sorts of drugs and medication to feel ' normal' again.

Yes...there are many addictive traits...drugs, smoking, alcohol. 

It's often the affects of over indulging in these that not only affects oneself, but also others around them. Family, friends...to the people involved in making and distributing drugs. There's no positive outcome. 

Finding alternate methods that aren't harmful, to fill the void, is the answer. 

Cheers for the reply! I know how it works longer term(work in the field, but don't know everything of course) but I was challenging that it happens straight away which has been posted multiple times and as far as I can see that isn't true.

I don't feel it is people looking for that same feeling as the first time, but it is true as tolerance builds and you use more regularly that you need to use more which then obviously ramps up all the other negative affects both physically, mentally and social. Especially if you are using multiple substances which with Cocaine usually is Alcohol. 

There are many complex reasons why people get addicted to drugs, or any obsessive behaviour and it can't always be applied simply to the substance itself. Trauma, stigma, poverty and underlying conditions being most prevalent in my personal opinion.

Lots of people use drugs and alcohol moderately and don't ever develop long term problems. Many will have positive experiences overall. 

Largely agree with you, but there are many other ways that these problems can be approached without going down decronian routes that have largely been shown to fail. 

On the last point when it comes to dependant use and even moderate use you are totally correct. 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Rebounder

[Rocking Red Cyril]

10 hours ago, Clutton Caveman said:

What would be common sense for this matter out of interest?

The thought that illegal drugs can be controlled by making them illegal and therefore far more dangerous to the user and not having a more forward agenda. Where drugs are de criminalised and controlled. To allow safer clean drugs  being available to be bought off a controlled supply line from government and again paying tax .

You are not going to stop people taking taking drugs . Do make sure they take safe clean drugs in controlled environments

[Clutton Caveman]

On 07/11/2022 at 12:47, spudski said:

I have visited Albania, when I was staying in Kassiopi, Corfu. And yes, it was awful.

But now...our own foreign office states it's a safe place to visit. And the tourist side of things is really being pushed. It has some incredibly unspoilt coastline now being developed for exclusive and ' normal' holidays. 

Your description could be said of places like India or Sri Lanka, which many visit to tour or holiday.

Some details. https://www.chasingthedonkey.com/what-to-do-on-the-albanian-riviera-guide/

Would you want to move there?

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

Would you want to move there?

Not sure what that has to do with the context!

[Steve Watts]

On 07/11/2022 at 21:57, Rocking Red Cyril said:

The thought that illegal drugs can be controlled by making them illegal and therefore far more dangerous to the user and not having a more forward agenda. Where drugs are de criminalised and controlled. To allow safer clean drugs  being available to be bought off a controlled supply line from government and again paying tax .

You are not going to stop people taking taking drugs. Do make sure they take safe clean drugs in controlled environments

In the same way that we're not going to stop people smoking?  Only with that, the prevalence of smokers has reduced from around 20% of the population to around 13% in the space of 10 years. The government won't legalise something that can prove to be harmful to the public.  The amount of tax they would receive from it I feel is irrelevant insofar that they were getting billions in the tax of cigarettes, but that didn't stop them from making it less tempting to buy them, thus reducing the tax they take in.

In relation to the topic of drugs in football, can I just say that I have never dabbled in any narcotics of any type, but a part of me wishes I could've found a supplier during the game last night that could've made watching that shower almost bearable! 

[frenchred]

On 05/11/2022 at 12:57, Hittheginger said:

Think this is only being applied to football because it's the only sport with existing legislation for banning orders and spectator behaviour already in place (happy to be proven wrong though). Other sports would need a lot more work legally to bring this in

But it's not only being applied to football, it's just supporter paranoia kicking in! 

I went horse racing on Friday to Exeter and the sniffer dogs were out at a small meeting like that, everyone in the queue was Che ked. Also been sniffed at Cheltenham and various gigs

[Rebounder]

10 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

In the same way that we're not going to stop people smoking?  Only with that, the prevalence of smokers has reduced from around 20% of the population to around 13% in the space of 10 years. The government won't legalise something that can prove to be harmful to the public.  The amount of tax they would receive from it I feel is irrelevant insofar that they were getting billions in the tax of cigarettes, but that didn't stop them from making it less tempting to buy them, thus reducing the tax they take in.

In relation to the topic of drugs in football, can I just say that I have never dabbled in any narcotics of any type, but a part of me wishes I could've found a supplier during the game last night that could've made watching that shower almost bearable! 

That's worked due to good harm reduction policies rather than outright banning. There are different approaches to regulation, 

On the last point if you've ever drank alcohol you have used narcotics. Tbf not even 8 pints would have made last night better. 

[KegCity]

On 07/11/2022 at 11:01, spudski said:

It's sad isn't it...that so many people have to rely on drugs to be happy, feel good about themselves or take them purely to exist. 

Surely it's the system that's broke. The system that makes people need drugs to be happy, have a good time, exist etc etc. That's what needs sorting. Gangs and supply are just sticking a plaster over a deep wound.

 

People have drank alcohol, smoked tobacco and marijuana and used other drugs for centuries if not longer. It’s human nature.

[spudski]

1 minute ago, KegCity said:

People have drank alcohol, smoked tobacco and marijuana and used other drugs for centuries if not longer. It’s human nature.

True...and there is an argument that certain amounts of alcohol, certain drugs are harmless in small quantities. 

It's when it's abused and taken in large quantities, that the problems start.

[KegCity]

Just now, spudski said:

True...and there is an argument that certain amounts of alcohol, certain drugs are harmless in small quantities. 

It's when it's abused and taken in large quantities, that the problems start.

I don’t disagree, just pointing out that people have been taking different forms of drugs for centuries. Alcohol is legal and regulated so it gets a pass, other equally destructive drugs aren’t.

[Barrs Court Red]

34 minutes ago, frenchred said:

But it's not only being applied to football, it's just supporter paranoia kicking in! 

I went horse racing on Friday to Exeter and the sniffer dogs were out at a small meeting like that, everyone in the queue was Che ked. Also been sniffed at Cheltenham and various gigs

A lot of those dogs are sniffing for counterfeit cash, rather than drugs

[Hittheginger]

23 hours ago, frenchred said:

But it's not only being applied to football, it's just supporter paranoia kicking in! 

I went horse racing on Friday to Exeter and the sniffer dogs were out at a small meeting like that, everyone in the queue was Che ked. Also been sniffed at Cheltenham and various gigs

Sorry my original comment was more related to the notion of banning orders. Drugs are obviously still illegal at other sporting events which is why security/dogs will be on the lookout for them. The difference being if you are caught with them at horse racing (or any sport other than football) I don't believe they'd have the powers to ban you for 3-10 years from attending a horse race anywhere else in the country. 

[Sixtyseconds]

Drugs at football.

Anybody remember a game in the late eighties  v Blackpool or Bolton or Bournemouth or was it Brentford when Dolman A turned into a giant bong?

I can't.

[CyderInACan]

Let's face it, drugs (and I'm purposely excluding nicotine & alcohol) are a reason people are enslaved, mistreated, addicted, murdered, raped etc all across the world. It's why kids across our country are getting stabbed, shot & murdered. 

If you're involved in any way in this illegal trade then you are complicit in these crimes. Blood is very much on your hands. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Putting aside the wider drugs debate, it DOES sound like football specific legislation AGAIN.

Apologies if already covered in more depth.

[Bazooka Joe]

On 09/11/2022 at 11:57, frenchred said:

But it's not only being applied to football, it's just supporter paranoia kicking in! 

I went horse racing on Friday to Exeter and the sniffer dogs were out at a small meeting like that, everyone in the queue was Che ked. Also been sniffed at Cheltenham and various gigs

Judging by numerous news clips I have seen, it appears a certain Joe Biden enjoys a good sniff.  Allegedly, of course,

It looks like he has some kind of fetish or an uncontrollable urge.

Or maybe, this harmless, old gentleman is simply using his amazing olfactory faculties to detect the smallest, microscopic traces of drugs.

( When he's got the scent, he's like a Hunter. Which reminds me, father and son would probably benefit from undertaking a joint venture ).

The message to anyone in such a situation, should be . . . .   "Just say no ! "

[MarcusX]

On 05/11/2022 at 10:13, chowie said:

It's not Drugs or Alcohol really, yes it makes people make the wrong decisions, but it's the Male masculinity lads culture.

You put one of this type of person around a campfire full of hippies playing guitars etc. Give him 15 cans and a bag, probably nothing will happen.

Add 3 or 4 his mates to that scenario, then he has the potential to kick off.

I agree, been to many a festival and don't think I've ever seen any trouble - not saying it doesn't happen obviously, but there's 1000s of people often a few entitled ones trying to get to the front and pushing past etc but very rarely any trouble from it. That's in an environment rife with drugs, almost everyone.

There's something about having an "enemy" too. These lads will hate the person sat the other side of the netting for no reason other than the colour of their shirt. It's a culture issue and it's a bit pathetic