Lee Johnson

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Jesus. I know some don’t rate his coaching but that’s a harsh criticism by any metric.

He was pretty much the same at City. Lots of unrest amongst the playing squad who had lost faith in him, that’s if he had any to start with………...

His dad was exactly the same culminating in the appalling punch up at Argyle when he scrapped with the players………

[italian dave]

3 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

In a way, I do get the point about the ridiculousness of celebrating a one-off cup win years later but, on the other hand, surely memories of nights like those are the whole point of supporting a football team?

Christ knows I've had more than enough joyless afternoons and evenings in the freezing cold watching us labour to terrible results. Ironically I couldn't make the Man Utd game but travelling to Manchester and standing at the Etihad with thousands of other City fans and watching us go toe to toe with one of the best teams in football in a cup semi final was one of the best memories of being a fan.

Sure, I wish we'd get promoted and it is frustrating seeing other clubs overtake us but football is made of stories and memories and I have no problem with the club celebrating that. It might be petty and completely ludicrous from the outside. But if you take everything that's petty and ludicrous from the outside out of football, I'm not too sure what's then left. 

Exactly this, LB. As Nick Hornby says, life for the majority of football fans most of the time is destined to be one of disappointment and failure! And you have to take the joy and the moments of pleasure when you can. And let's not forget that the Man U game (for me at least) wasn't the only memorable thing to come out of LJs here. That might have been the pinnacle, but to suggest that is all that we enjoyed is to forget an awful lot

You've already touched on that day at the Etihad. And often overlooked as part of that cup run was the 4-1 annihilation of Palace. The 4-0 win at Fulham. Another game at Fulham where we walked the ball into the net and left the best defence in the division -literally - flat on its arse. Beating Cardiff (more than once), watching Tammy Abraham play for City for a season, a 2-1 win at Sunderland when two moments of magic made a 10 hour journey and the cold so worthwhile, the 3-3 at Derby, the 3-2 win at Sheff Utd (ha ha!), watching Lloyd Kelly develop, that Bobby Reid hat trick against Wednesday, those 1-0 away wins (Fammy snatching a great headed winner at Birmingham springs to mind), those are all the moments that make those joyless afternoons and evenings worthwhile. 

 

 

[lenred]

6 minutes ago, italian dave said:

the 3-3 at Derby

Weren’t we 3-0 up in that game ID?! 

[Bristol Oil Services]

4 hours ago, prankerd said:

Whether we have underachieved or not, you can only celebrate the good times put in front of you, there are teams in the premier league that have won nothing.

We have at least got like 3 johnstones paint trophies and a league 1 title, thats nothing to pull our noses at!.

Then the league cup defeat of united, playoffs defeatz however much they hurt are moments in history.

Id rather those than be a midtable premier league team with no ambition to win anything..

 

I think we should at least try a few seasons in the middle of the Prem not winning any  thing (but on MOTD every Saturday night being overlooked by Danny thingy and Alan Geordie) before we decide we'd rather be in L1 aiming to add to our glorious tally of League One cups and promotions and titles

[italian dave]

5 minutes ago, lenred said:

Weren’t we 3-0 up in that game ID?! 

We sure were. Should have been 4-0 if Matty Taylor hadn't missed a sitter. And we played possibly the best 45 minutes football I've ever seen us play.

Those magic moments aren't just about winning. I used to love watching us when we had Andy Cole, Jacki, Mark Gavin, Leroy Rosenior. We'd lose more often than we won, but boy was it fun.....

[Oh Louie louie]

10 minutes ago, lenred said:

Weren’t we 3-0 up in that game ID?! 

Yep backed Matty Taylor for the first goal that day, ending a massive losing streak

[lenred]

3 minutes ago, italian dave said:

We sure were. Should have been 4-0 if Matty Taylor hadn't missed a sitter. And we played possibly the best 45 minutes football I've ever seen us play.

Those magic moments aren't just about winning. I used to love watching us when we had Andy Cole, Jacki, Mark Gavin, Leroy Rosenior. We'd lose more often than we won, but boy was it fun.....

If we’d been 3-0 down I’d agree but from 0-3 up to me at least it felt like a humongous kick in the balls! Get what you’re saying though. 

[Oh Louie louie]

Bet a few radios got turned off North of the river that Day!

[LondonBristolian]

30 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Exactly this, LB. As Nick Hornby says, life for the majority of football fans most of the time is destined to be one of disappointment and failure! And you have to take the joy and the moments of pleasure when you can. And let's not forget that the Man U game (for me at least) wasn't the only memorable thing to come out of LJs here. That might have been the pinnacle, but to suggest that is all that we enjoyed is to forget an awful lot

You've already touched on that day at the Etihad. And often overlooked as part of that cup run was the 4-1 annihilation of Palace. The 4-0 win at Fulham. Another game at Fulham where we walked the ball into the net and left the best defence in the division -literally - flat on its arse. Beating Cardiff (more than once), watching Tammy Abraham play for City for a season, a 2-1 win at Sunderland when two moments of magic made a 10 hour journey and the cold so worthwhile, the 3-3 at Derby, the 3-2 win at Sheff Utd (ha ha!), watching Lloyd Kelly develop, that Bobby Reid hat trick against Wednesday, those 1-0 away wins (Fammy snatching a great headed winner at Birmingham springs to mind), those are all the moments that make those joyless afternoons and evenings worthwhile. 

 

 

The 4-0 win away at Fulham probably actually was my highlight of LJ's run. It was made funnier and more awkward by the fact that I'm mates with a season ticket holder who had treated me to lunch before we'd gone our separate ways at the ground, only for me to spot him slinking out at 3-0 down with 10 minutes left...

Edited January 23, 2023 by LondonBristolian

[RedLionLad]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

He was pretty much the same at City. Lots of unrest amongst the playing squad who had lost faith in him, that’s if he had any to start with………...

His dad was exactly the same culminating in the appalling punch up at Argyle when he scrapped with the players………

And yet again, you wake up late and post the same old thing. I think we all know your opinion by now.

You are to this forum what you say LJ and GJ were to Bristol City Football Club. Boring and repetitive…

[Fuber]

On 06/01/2023 at 20:22, italian dave said:

And 7th a month before his departure. 

I'd readily accept that these things are all relative for Bristol City! But for 2-3 years we were talked about nationally as candidates for promotion/play offs and not as candidates for relegation. For us, that was a place we hadn't been in for decades and haven't been since.

Look, I'm not trying to argue that he was some kind of coaching genius! Just that he did a decent enough job here, gave us some good times, doesn't deserve the abuse that he still gets from some, and just maybe wasn't the principal reason behind all the financial/recruitment decisions that were taken at the time. 

That's where this started! And I'd still maintain that the reason for his sacking was. what was happening on the pitch/league position and not the state of our finances - which, at the time incidentally, were massively impacted by covid anyway.

Just as a bit of an aside - I sometimes wonder whether Brentford (who had a similar, but more focused and more successful strategy to us) got promoted just in time, and we timed it just about as badly as we could have done in the context of covid.

Anybody could see the wage spending was becoming comical.

If LJ didn't, then that's on him.

He had dverything he could need at his disposal, he was just a very poor manager. No squad building ability, no singular style of play, no man management, no common sense.

He's a decent coach. But that was it. Should never have been our manager.

If we had someone like McCarthy or Pearson in charge over that same period (16-19), we would have at least a couple play off finishes. They'd have streamlined the squad, told Ashton to bugger off, and had a backbone, and at least have a set tactic.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Fuber

[2015]

12 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Anybody could see the wage spending was becoming comical.

If LJ didn't, then that's on him.

He had dverything he could need at his disposal, he was just a very poor manager. No squad building ability, no singular style of play, no man management, no common sense.

He's a decent coach. But that was it. Should never have been our manager.

If we had someone like McCarthy or Pearson in charge over that same period (16-19), we would have at least a couple play off finishes. They'd have streamlined the squad, told Ashton to bugger off, and had a backbone, and at least have a set tactic.

Imagine replacing our most successful recent manager (Steve Cotterill) for Lee Johnson. Nepotism 

[cidered abroad]

How about the Wunderkind Johnson for Everton?

[Pezo]

28 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Imagine replacing our most successful recent manager (Steve Cotterill) for Lee Johnson. Nepotism 

Could someone argue that LJ has had our highest finish in the last 15 years so even if it was nepotism it was relatively successful?

[2015]

1 minute ago, Pezo said:

Could someone argue that LJ has had our highest finish in the last 15 years so even if it was nepotism it was relatively successful?

With the money he spent and with the players he had finishing 8th was the bare minimum i'd say

[RedLionLad]

13 minutes ago, Pezo said:

Could someone argue that LJ has had our highest finish in the last 15 years so even if it was nepotism it was relatively successful?

Will we better that position this season?
 

 

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, Fuber said:

Anybody could see the wage spending was becoming comical.

If LJ didn't, then that's on him.

He had dverything he could need at his disposal, he was just a very poor manager. No squad building ability, no singular style of play, no man management, no common sense.

He's a decent coach. But that was it. Should never have been our manager.

If we had someone like McCarthy or Pearson in charge over that same period (16-19), we would have at least a couple play off finishes. They'd have streamlined the squad, told Ashton to bugger off, and had a backbone, and at least have a set tactic.

You say that the wage spending is “on him”, but that misses the point I’ve been trying to make. Perhaps it wasn’t. Perhaps his objectives were entirely about points and league position. And Ashton’s were entirely about the money. And that disconnect was part of the problem.

I don’t know that. It’s just a proposition. But with respect I doubt you know any different, for sure. 

You might be right about other managers: who knows, it’s speculation. And we didn’t have them. I tend to agree that if LJ had had a smaller squad, had told Ashton to bugger off etc he may well have done better. But none of us know what was going on behind the scenes and who pulled what strings. It was what it was - and all I’m suggesting is we had some good times with him, and someone who can get us into a regular top 10 place in the Championship can’t be entirely useless. It wasn’t all bad. 

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, 2015 said:

Imagine replacing our most successful recent manager (Steve Cotterill) for Lee Johnson. Nepotism 

How do you define “most successful”? 

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, 2015 said:

With the money he spent and with the players he had finishing 8th was the bare minimum i'd say

Seeing as we were 2nd at Xmas I can’t say I exactly saw it as a great success.

[Fordy62]

44 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Seeing as we were 2nd at Xmas I can’t say I exactly saw it as a great success.

Absolutely. It was a season of two halves. Almost like we found the switch that said dynamic attacking football and decided to flick it off just for a laugh. We then forgot where the switch was and decided the only way we’d ever find it again was to throw money out the window. Sad on many fronts, not least that LJ has never really ever found that zip again since, he found some very good attritional 1-0’s, but never re found that flair. 

[Kid in the Riot]

51 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Seeing as we were 2nd at Xmas I can’t say I exactly saw it as a great success.

Still comfortably our best season at the level for 10 years, though that probably says more about the club as a whole. 

Overachievement too, if you look at clubs' respective wage bills for that season. 

[GrahamC]

Just now, Kid in the Riot said:

Still comfortably our best season at the level for 10 years, though that probably says more about the club as a whole. 

Overachievement too, if you look at clubs' respective wage bills for that season. 

Being in the automatic spots at Xmas & not even being in contention for the playoffs by season’s end is pretty poor, in the end we only finished 3 places higher than we did the season before, in 2009/10 (8 years prior) we were 10th, same in 08/09 so really not too much difference.

I get the argument that it was an overachievement, but realistically by how much? Finishing just 3 places higher?

2007/8, that’s what I call overachieving (4th).

[Harry]

5 hours ago, Percy Pig said:

I presume WSM is referring to the FPA? I have no idea whether Nige played a part in that, can't imagine he would other than encouraging the initiative. 

I guess the one thing you can say is that there has been a move to reset the culture of the club from roots to branches, that includes everything from the academy, playing staff, integrating the women's team into the club as a whole and the wider cultural piece around recognising the past and doing more gesture based stuff for the giants on whose shoulders we stand. 

I guess that entite ethos of integration and togetherness stems from the boardroom and managers office as much as anything. If they don't buy in then it's impossible to further manh causes regardless of how well intentioned or principled. 

But attributing direct credit to Nige on this front is probably stretching things a little far, even for a disciple of the Cult like me!

 

FPA? Sorry, what does this stand for? 
 

In terms of the other things you mention (academy, womens team etc) that all stems from having the training ground built. Nowt to do with Nige. Was gonna happen whoever was the manager.
 

But again you’ve mentioned “recognising the past”. I’m stumped. What has Nige done to recognise the past. 
Sorry - again I’m not trying to argue for the sake of it, I just don’t know what this is referring to and I may have missed something. 

[Harry]

1 minute ago, Percy Pig said:

No worries mate, hasn't come across any way.

The former players association was that particular TLA.

As I said, I wouldn't actually attribute any of the recognising the past stuff to him. Sounds like, from those involved, Richard Gould was the catalyst for some of that and the design in the ground has been that way longer than he's been here. 

 

Thanks for that - I’d never even heard of the FPA. Nice initiative. 
As you say though, I can’t see that as anything ‘Nigel’ related. A quick search suggests it’s a city fan behind it and he approached Gould. 
Hopefully the other poster (WSM) will come up with the goods as to what he means by this ‘embracing of the past’ that Nige has done. 

[Kid in the Riot]

53 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Being in the automatic spots at Xmas & not even being in contention for the playoffs by season’s end is pretty poor, in the end we only finished 3 places higher than we did the season before, in 2009/10 (8 years prior) we were 10th, same in 08/09 so really not too much difference.

I get the argument that it was an overachievement, but realistically by how much? Finishing just 3 places higher?

2007/8, that’s what I call overachieving (4th).

Wage bill was 14th I think, so six places.

Again, I'm struggling to think of other City managers in recent memory that have done similar at C'ship level... 

[Merrick's Marvels]

35 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Wage bill was 14th I think, so six places.

Again, I'm struggling to think of other City managers in recent memory that have done similar at C'ship level... 

But the 14th highest wage bill doesn't guarantee a 14th placed finish, does it?

That would be far too literal - unless you have stats showing every other club, say in the last 10 years, with the 14th highest wage bill has, indeed, finished 14th. My guess is... they haven't. 

Sure, there's data indicating a broad correlation between income/wages and where you finish in the table. In the Premier League certainly.

But in the Championship, I'd suggest it's just as important how well you spend your income, how well your club is run, how well you make decisions. Things we haven't exactly excelled at in the past and the reason why minnows such as Brentford, Luton, Millwall etc etc have all consistently out performed us. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Thanks for that - I’d never even heard of the FPA. Nice initiative. 
As you say though, I can’t see that as anything ‘Nigel’ related. A quick search suggests it’s a city fan behind it and he approached Gould. 
Hopefully the other poster (WSM) will come up with the goods as to what he means by this ‘embracing of the past’ that Nige has done. 

Neil Palmer. Isn't Scott Davidson involved as well?

Some info here...

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/bristol-city-proudly-supports-new-former-players-association/

[Davefevs]

Just now, Percy Pig said:

A book I read as part of my dissertation thesis called "Soccernomics" delves quite deeply into correlation between wage bills and success. It's pretty conclusive barring the odd anomaly (Leicester, Blackpool promotion from Champ) that position is directly linked to budget.

Obviously better to group similar budgets together, an extra £1000 a week isn't enough to influence position. You'd imagine the league would've be split into 3/4 mini groups budget wise, so our position relative to others in the same bracket would be a more apt comparison. 

I compiled this a while back.

I looked at all the teams that got promoted around the same time as us who weren’t any bigger than us (subjectively).  I added Sheff Utd too as an outlier.

We never finished top of that group, in any season.  That was a slight frustration of mine.

You might need to zoom in to pick up the badges more easily.

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

But the 14th highest wage bill doesn't guarantee a 14th placed finish, does it?

That would be far too literal - unless you have stats showing every other club, say in the last 10 years, with the 14th highest wage bill has, indeed, finished 14th. My guess is... they haven't. 

Sure, there's data indicating a broad correlation between income/wages and where you finish in the table. In the Premier League certainly.

But in the Championship, I'd suggest it's just as important how well you spend your income, how well your club is run, how well you make decisions. Things we haven't exactly excelled at in the past and the reason why minnows such as Brentford, Luton, Millwall etc etc have all consistently out performed us. 

I didn't say it guaranteed 14th place, did I? Quite the opposite, I highlighted most City managers over the years seem to have achieved finishes lower than where our wage bill has been, this current one included. 

There is a broad correlation though, as you say. It's just curious that there seems to be a bit of revisionism regards that season, though I suspect that relates to form from Jan onwards and what has happened since. 

Obviously agree on the importance of having a well run club which spends its income well. Not having a CEO signing players the manager doesn't want always helps.

[OutstandingMixer]

7 hours ago, Robbored said:

He was pretty much the same at City. Lots of unrest amongst the playing squad who had lost faith in him, that’s if he had any to start with………...

His dad was exactly the same culminating in the appalling punch up at Argyle when he scrapped with the players………

I assume GJ's "punch up" was announced on the official website then...

[Merrick's Marvels]

36 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

You'd imagine the league would've be split into 3/4 mini groups budget wise, so our position relative to others in the same bracket would be a more apt comparison. 

I know the book and its premise. Having met the author, he seemed less than impressed at the way we survived in 1982 btw and I believe it's in this book he describes us as the original "phoenix club". **** him, with all genuine respect to the excellent books he's written - Football against the enemy, Ajax The Dutch The War.

I don't disagree entirely with the bit quoted above. I just think it's a far too crude metric to judge a club by in the Championship - parachute payments alone completely skew the playing field in this division. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Robbored]

9 minutes ago, OutstandingMixer said:

I assume GJ's "punch up" was announced on the official website then...

No - the club posted that GJ had left the  club “by mutual consent”……….

The truth is that he as sacked after the players recused to play for him. The club obviously wouldn’t want to make that public.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Robbored

[Merrick's Marvels]

14 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I didn't say it guaranteed 14th place, did I? 

No but i understood you as saying that by having the 14th highest wage bill but finishing 8th, Johnson had over achieved. 

In a season when most would say that by failing to make the playoffs, having been 2nd at Xmas, the opposite was the case.

Apologies if that wasn't your point.  

Edited January 23, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I know the book and its premise. Having met the author, he seemed less than impressed at the way we survived in 1982 btw and I believe it's in this book he describes us as the original "phoenix club". **** him, with all genuine respect to the excellent books he's written - Football against the enemy, Ajax The Dutch The War.

I don't disagree entirely with the bit quoted above. I just think it's a far too crude metric to judge a club by in the Championship - parachute payments alone completely skew the playing field in this division. 

I’m always a bit torn by wage budget as a single factor.  As we know in all manner of things it’s rarely just one thing that is key, it’s usually a combo that makes up the dynamic.  In City’s case our amortisation bill was large too, so what we know is that although we might’ve kept wages relatively in check (debate, discuss), we paid large fees.  Maybe if you link the two you might say we pay the right wage for the ability of the player, but the wrong fee (if that makes sense?).  Out operational costs are high also.

[And Its Smith]

Lee Johnson got criticised for the bad things and the good things were apparently coincidence/not down to him. At least we can all agree on that 

[Kid in the Riot]

12 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

No but i understood you as saying that by having the 14th highest wage bill but finishing 8th, Johnson had over achieved. 

In a season when most would say that by failing to make the playoffs, having been 2nd at Xmas, the opposite was the case.

Apologies if that wasn't your point.  

Sorry, you think that finishing 8th with a bottom half wage budget is underachievement because of where we were at Christmas? 

Wait until you find out where we finished last season... 

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Lee Johnson got criticised for the bad things and the good things were apparently coincidence/not down to him. At least we can all agree on that 

Do you really think OTIB thinks that?

[spudski]

LJ is definitely marmite and a conundrum. 

My gut instinct with him, is he is a very good coach, but over complicates things and goes beyond the limits of his playing staff at hand.

He finds a level...gets them playing well for a while after finding their strengths...then he pushes too much on their actual ability. 

It then gets confused...a never ending circle of trying to find a better formula.

I feel if he stopped tinkering at a certain point it would eventually work for him...but he can't help himself.

 

 

[And Its Smith]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Do you really think OTIB thinks that?

No it was tongue in cheek because LJ is a subject that will never be agreed upon!

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Sorry, you think that finishing 8th with a bottom half wage budget is underachievement because of where we were at Christmas? 

Wait until you find out where we finished last season... 

pedant alert, we finished 11th in 17/18….assume that’s the season you’re referring to?

That was a disappointing end to a mainly fantastic season.

[And Its Smith]

Just now, spudski said:

LJ is definitely marmite and a conundrum. 

My gut instinct with him, is he is a very good coach, but over complicates things and goes beyond the limits of his playing staff at hand.

He finds a level...gets them playing well for a while after finding their strengths...then he pushes too much on their actual ability. 

It then gets confused...a never ending circle of trying to find a better formula.

I feel if he stopped tinkering at a certain point it would eventually work for him...but he can't help himself.

 

 

Sums it up perfectly for me. I will credit him for improving players as well and growing value. Others won’t but there we are 

[CodeRed]

25 minutes ago, Robbored said:

No - the club posted that GJ had left the  club “by mutual consent”……….

The truth is that he as sacked after the players recused to play for him. The club obviously wouldn’t want to make that public.

GJ left 13 years ago.

Time to let it go now ......

[2015]

3 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Being in the automatic spots at Xmas & not even being in contention for the playoffs by season’s end is pretty poor, in the end we only finished 3 places higher than we did the season before, in 2009/10 (8 years prior) we were 10th, same in 08/09 so really not too much difference.

I get the argument that it was an overachievement, but realistically by how much? Finishing just 3 places higher?

2007/8, that’s what I call overachieving (4th).

4 points above 7th with 5 games to go and finished 8th. Even SL was quoted as saying around December that season he expected us to be in the playoffs. 

I think LJ's real downfall though was the summer transfer window of 2019 which was really a bit of a disaster.

[Merrick's Marvels]

25 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Sorry, you think that finishing 8th with a bottom half wage budget is underachievement because of where we were at Christmas? 

Wait until you find out where we finished last season... 

I'm not aware we were 2nd at Xmas last season and then failed to even make the playoffs. Which is the whole point when discussing that season. 

 

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

pedant alert, we finished 11th in 17/18….assume that’s the season you’re referring to?

That was a disappointing end to a mainly fantastic season.

Thanks for prompting me to look this up and factcheck - we did indeed finish 11th.

So I'm definitely not buying the argument others seem to be making that finishing 11th with a budget ranked 14th can be classed as over achieving. Unless I've got my wires crossed! 

A fantastic first half to the season, for sure.

But 4 wins and 13 defeats from the last 25 games was appalling. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[GrahamC]

30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

pedant alert, we finished 11th in 17/18….assume that’s the season you’re referring to?

That was a disappointing end to a mainly fantastic season.

18/19 we finished 8th, our only finish above 10th since GJ left, who managed 4th, 10th & 10th but apparently wasn’t as good as someone who failed to get out of League One in 4 attempts..

[Tim S]

6 hours ago, spudski said:

LJ is definitely marmite and a conundrum. 

My gut instinct with him, is he is a very good coach, but over complicates things and goes beyond the limits of his playing staff at hand.

He finds a level...gets them playing well for a while after finding their strengths...then he pushes too much on their actual ability. 

It then gets confused...a never ending circle of trying to find a better formula.

I feel if he stopped tinkering at a certain point it would eventually work for him...but he can't help himself.

 

 

Pretty much spot on. Lee is a very good coach, forward thinking and not afraid to think outside the box.

However for me, what let him down at City was his inability or reluctance to strip things back to basics when it was needed. I think its great that a coach looks for new ways to motivate players or trying new methods of training or tactics. But sometimes - you just need to keep things simple. The right pegs in the right holes.... where as Lee would rather try to reinvent the peg or the hole as apposed to just keeping it simple. 

Lee is a very modern coach. But I think he needs a strong number 2 who is a bit old school to help balance things. When he finds the right balance in his coaching team and at the right club - I truly believe it will click into place and he will be successful.

[downendcity]

8 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Lee Johnson got criticised for the bad things and the good things were apparently coincidence/not down to him. At least we can all agree on that 

I thought that all the good things were down to Mark Ashton.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well at least according to Mark Ashton they were!

[Robbored]

2 hours ago, Tim S said:

Pretty much spot on. Lee is a very good coach, forward thinking and not afraid to think outside the box.

However for me, what let him down at City was his inability or reluctance to strip things back to basics when it was needed. I think its great that a coach looks for new ways to motivate players or trying new methods of training or tactics. But sometimes - you just need to keep things simple. The right pegs in the right holes.... where as Lee would rather try to reinvent the peg or the hole as apposed to just keeping it simple. 

Lee is a very modern coach. But I think he needs a strong number 2 who is a bit old school to help balance things. When he finds the right balance in his coaching team and at the right club - I truly believe it will click into place and he will be successful.

I certainly agree with that but his limited man management skills are a hindrance - Players don’t seem to respect him and that’s reflected in their performances on the pitch.

[RedLionLad]

16 minutes ago, Deluded Sag said:

They didn't respect him at C*ty because he was parachuted into the job. And your fans certainly didn't respect him when he was a player and accused him of only being on the pitch because of nepotism - I'm genuinely surprised he came back to the club after that. 

Johnson would have been better off staying at Barnsley for longer and learning from managing in the lower leagues, like a certain cretin of a manager in north Bristol. 

Corrected for you

[Phileas Fogg]

37 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I certainly agree with that but his limited man management skills are a hindrance - Players don’t seem to respect him and that’s reflected in their performances on the pitch.

For someone who dismisses "wild speculation" this is quite a bold statement. 

I do believe though, he created problems for himself through recruitment of characters (Tomlin) who were too challenging to manage. Having someone that disruptive and problematic in the dressing room is always going to cause issues that don't need to exist.

I completely understand why he wanted to recruit Tomlin, but it didn't half make things more challenging for him. 

[Port Said Red]

44 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I certainly agree with that but his limited man management skills are a hindrance - Players don’t seem to respect him and that’s reflected in their performances on the pitch.

Wow! I am almost lost for words. 

Of all the things you could say about Lee Johnson s time as Manager here, the last I think anyone (well anyone but you) would say was, "he's lost the dressing room" or "the players are not playing for him". 

Just a bizarre and unprovable statement, posted as fact. Precisely the sort of thing you are constantly taking others to task for.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Port Said Red

[Kid in the Riot]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

pedant alert, we finished 11th in 17/18….assume that’s the season you’re referring to?

That was a disappointing end to a mainly fantastic season.

 

9 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I'm not aware we were 2nd at Xmas last season and then failed to even make the playoffs. Which is the whole point when discussing that season. 

 

Thanks for prompting me to look this up and factcheck - we did indeed finish 11th.

So I'm definitely not buying the argument others seem to be making that finishing 11th with a budget ranked 14th can be classed as over achieving. Unless I've got my wires crossed! 

A fantastic first half to the season, for sure.

But 4 wins and 13 defeats from the last 25 games was appalling. 

2018 19 season chaps....

[Phileas Fogg]

2 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Wow! I am almost lost for words. 

Of all the things you could say about Lee Johnson s time as Manager here, the last I think anyone (well anyone but you) would say was, "he's lost the dressing room" or "the players are not playing for him". 

Just a bizarre and unprovable statement, posted as fact. Precisely the sort of thing you are constantly taking others to task for.

It genuinely made me chuckle - RR constantly bangs on with his bizarre views about the "OS".. and obsessively tries to belittle the notion that some posters might be "in the know" (essentially because he's jealous) yet he posts this  I respect the brass neck of it in some ways.

Another thing I genuinely do like about RR is his dogmatic determination to use the dated olde OTIB emojis (or, emoticons as they were called back then)...........

[johnheadbcfc]

Said it on an earlier page  I do not get the dislike of Lee Johnson. As a former player and manager who in my memory always seemed to give it his all but it just didnt work out , don't think I've ever heard him speak negatively about the club either.

Yet there are city fans that clap Holloway and are smitten by his cringe one liners.  Short memories of burning a city flag I suppose.

[Phileas Fogg]

10 minutes ago, johnheadbcfc said:

Said it on an earlier page  I do not get the dislike of Lee Johnson. As a former player and manager who in my memory always seemed to give it his all but it just didnt work out , don't think I've ever heard him speak negatively about the club either.

Yet there are city fans that clap Holloway and are smitten by his cringe one liners.  Short memories of burning a city flag I suppose.

I can understand why he could seem annoying.. but I don’t understand the will for him to fail at other jobs.. especially those in a different country ! 

I agree there’s genuine debate to be had over what Cotterill could have achieved with the financial backing and patience Johnson was afforded, but neither of those things are Johnson’s fault per se.

The job was probably a bit too early for him, and he almost definitely benefitted from a good relationship with SL.. but I do believe he genuinely cared for the club and tried his best. That’s all you can ask for really. Managers such as SO’D, Coppell and McInnes (who clearly didn’t ‘buy in’ to the club nearly as much as LJ did) don’t get anywhere near as much retrospective stick. 

[Robbored]

35 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

For someone who dismisses "wild speculation" this is quite a bold statement. 

I do believe though, he created problems for himself through recruitment of characters (Tomlin) who were too challenging to manage. Having someone that disruptive and problematic in the dressing room is always going to cause issues that don't need to exist.

I completely understand why he wanted to recruit Tomlin, but it didn't half make things more challenging for him. 

Tomlin wasn’t the problem PF.

[johnheadbcfc]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Tomlin wasn’t the problem PF.

Seems he was at every club he's ever been at 

[Robbored]

43 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Wow! I am almost lost for words. 

Of all the things you could say about Lee Johnson s time as Manager here, the last I think anyone (well anyone but you) would say was, "he's lost the dressing room" or "the players are not playing for him". 

Just a bizarre and unprovable statement, posted as fact. Precisely the sort of thing you are constantly taking others to task for.

Firstly it was pretty obvious that the players weren’t giving everything on the pitch. Add to that, the players I chatted with had a meh attitude towards LJ without criticising him directly.

2+2=4.

[italian dave]

It’s quite early for two people to already be fishing on this thread. Just ignore RR like we have done the visitor from the other side and they’ll both go away. 

[IAmNick]

Our form in the cup season didn't surprisingly go downhill, it regressed to the mean. The surprising bit was the increase, not the decrease.

If someone is doing a job for 4 years and has one particularly good period of 3 months, then that period is the outlier.

I put it down to luck more than judgement myself, evidenced by the style and standard of football over the majority of his time here and the things he did around that time once it started regressing - he just happened to roll a double 6 for a few months basically.

If it was intent or skill he'd have been able to replicate it. He didn't and he couldn't.

[IAmNick]

42 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

but I do believe he genuinely cared for the club and tried his best. That’s all you can ask for really.

Not sure I agree with that. I can definitely ask for a lot more than just caring for the club and trying your best. I care for the club and would try my best if made manager but I think we're after a bit more than that!

I'd rather someone who didn't "genuinely" care for the club but got results.

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

For someone who dismisses "wild speculation" this is quite a bold statement. 

I do believe though, he created problems for himself through recruitment of characters (Tomlin) who were too challenging to manage. Having someone that disruptive and problematic in the dressing room is always going to cause issues that don't need to exist.

I completely understand why he wanted to recruit Tomlin, but it didn't half make things more challenging for him. 

Running towards adversity, remember? That was (one of) the (many) vacuous sentiments plastered about the place (because Eddie Howe did this at Bournemouth so it must work).

So we ran toward the inevitable let-down of signing Lee Tomlin. Because Lee had been to that Michelin starred cafe run by the SAS to observe people working under pressure.  

[italian dave]

18 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Our form in the cup season didn't surprisingly go downhill, it regressed to the mean. The surprising bit was the increase, not the decrease.

If someone is doing a job for 4 years and has one particularly good period of 3 months, then that period is the outlier.

I put it down to luck more than judgement myself, evidenced by the style and standard of football over the majority of his time here and the things he did around that time once it started regressing - he just happened to roll a double 6 for a few months basically.

If it was intent or skill he'd have been able to replicate it. He didn't and he couldn't.

More than a little unfair, I’d suggest, to characterise LJs four years as one where we hade “one particularly good period of 3 months”.

The cup run was in 17/18. We finished 8th in 18/19. We were top six most of the first half of 19/20. 

[Phileas Fogg]

28 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Not sure I agree with that. I can definitely ask for a lot more than just caring for the club and trying your best. I care for the club and would try my best if made manager but I think we're after a bit more than that!

I'd rather someone who didn't "genuinely" care for the club but got results.

 

Good post, true. ‘All you can ask for’ was more a lazy figure of speech really - I think you get my point though.

I do feel he does get a harder time than he deserves on here. He obviously benefited from a great deal of patience and financial backing.  

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Tomlin wasn’t the problem PF.

Ok, care to expand on that?

[RedLionLad]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Firstly it was pretty obvious that the players weren’t giving everything on the pitch. Add to that, the players I chatted with had a meh attitude towards LJ without criticising him directly.

2+2=4.

So, no facts, just your usual bullshit opinion

[RedLionLad]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

I certainly agree with that but his limited man management skills are a hindrance - Players don’t seem to respect him and that’s reflected in their performances on the pitch.

Absolute rubbish. You are talking about professional footballers here doing a job to the best of their ability. Give some credit to some of the better ( or better organised) teams we were up against.

The thoughts you have are not facts.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

2018 19 season chaps....

That was a weird season:

At Xmas we were actually mid table.

But had commenced the start of an unbeaten run that brought 8 successive wins.

We got to 5th:

Then went 5 w/o a win, but recovered back to 5th with 10 points from 4 games, before 5 winless to end the season.  We finished 8th, our best points tally (70) under LJ.  The game against Derby was a bummer.  The Villa game we got stuffed “2-1”, Villa could’ve scored ten!  But we had one disallowed unfairly too.  Kinda summed up the “era”.  I think LJ got results that were better than overall performance levels.  That’s not a criticism btw.  We played better in 17/18 (in the main).

[Leveller]

19 hours ago, 2015 said:

Imagine replacing our most successful recent manager (Steve Cotterill) for Lee Johnson. Nepotism 

Nepotism?? So was LJ appointed by GJ?

Or was LJ SL's secret love child. I think we should be told!

[Chivs]

2 hours ago, italian dave said:

More than a little unfair, I’d suggest, to characterise LJs four years as one where we hade “one particularly good period of 3 months”.

The cup run was in 17/18. We finished 8th in 18/19. We were top six most of the first half of 19/20. 

What you have to appreciate is that LJ kept throwing double-six, time after time. But he was always lucky with the roll of the dice....

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

 

Ok, care to expand on that?

Let me hazard a guess - no!