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David Brent

David Brent

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, spudski said:

Even if LJ was a great coach...with his demeanor, would anyone run through brick wall for him?

Football needs great coaching...but it also needs good man management, respect, total belief in the system, and a fear of consequences of actions. 

And a will to run through brick walls. 

Seriously...if having a poor first half, would anyone respond positively if he spoke like he does in interviews, or actually went into a rant?

The former would get no response, the latter, you would laugh out loud. 

He might be a nice bloke, give fans a listening ear, as with Jamie Mac also, but how clouded a judgement if you base that, on them being a good manager/ coach at this level....just because they speak to you. 

People in the game, give time to folk on the perimeter, it doesn't make them impervious to negativity just because they gave them time. 

Seen it so many times in the past. 

 

 

Can’t imagine you’ve been in a LJ dressing room. I know I haven’t. 

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IAmNick

IAmNick

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, spudski said:

Even if LJ was a great coach...with his demeanor, would anyone run through brick wall for him?

Football needs great coaching...but it also needs good man management, respect, total belief in the system, and a fear of consequences of actions. 

And a will to run through brick walls. 

Seriously...if having a poor first half, would anyone respond positively if he spoke like he does in interviews, or actually went into a rant?

The former would get no response, the latter, you would laugh out loud. 

He might be a nice bloke, give fans a listening ear, as with Jamie Mac also, but how clouded a judgement if you base that, on them being a good manager/ coach at this level....just because they speak to you. 

People in the game, give time to folk on the perimeter, it doesn't make them impervious to negativity just because they gave them time. 

Seen it so many times in the past. 

I kind of agree here - I think you'll get further in the game (or at least have more success in L2/L1/and much of the Championship) if you're someone who can build a great dressing room ethos but are limited tactically, compared to the other way around. Examples at City being Gary J and dare I say it... Cotterill.

At the very top level you obviously need to be top drawer at both, but to get shit done you have to have everyone on board wherever you are imo.

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Fordy62

Fordy62

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Harry said:

I think it’s amazing that you dislike someone so much that you would take the time out of your day to watch a 10 minute interview for his new club, his 3rd club since leaving here, 3 and a bit years since he left and then take further time out to screenshot it and post on a City forum about his hair. 

I can recommend a good shrink if you need one mate. There’s clearly an underlying issue that you need looking at. 

On the contrary, I think you can appreciate something when it no longer becomes your burden. His interviews are a thing for the ages and I think they probably always will be. They weren’t funny when we were on the receiving end. They are now. 

Plus, I suppose there’s a good degree of me being vindicated when I say I didn’t particularly rate him as a coach. Helps me to self heal from the LLLLLLLLL saga. 

Many people liken LJ to David Brent, but it’s similar to any awkward comedy I suppose, you could equally pick Mark Corrigan or Alan Partridge. He’s funny and blissfully unaware. 

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Superjack

Superjack

Posted
Posted
Just now, Engvall’s Splinter said:

With all the self promoting bullshit, how does Jamie Mac put up with his character? Don’t get me wrong LJ is probably a good bloke at heart but also loves the noise of his own sound bites. All the cringeyness would do my swede in after a while. 

Jamie Mac is a 'yes man' imo. 

Oh ****!

Surely not? ?

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Fordy62

Fordy62

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Harry said:

So he hates him but also finds him mildly amusing? 
Mmmm…dunno about that. The fact his initial comment having watched the interview was about hair dye tells you that Fordy is pure hate, and not looking for light entertainment. 
 

I find it rather odd behaviour. There’s loads of Hibs and Sunderland fans on Twitter making comments about the interview. It’s amazing - they hate the guy so much that they sit through a 10 minute interview and feel the desire to make comment. 
 

There are lots of people that I really do not like. I don’t go seeking out their latest media appearance. What a waste of my time that would be. If I don’t like them I don’t wanna hear from them. Often to the point where if see someone come on tv who I don’t like I’ll switch over. I thinks it’s odd behaviour that people with a clear dislike of LJ, like Fordy, go seeking LJ at every opportunity. The bloke needs to let it go. 

Hold on, there’s nothing hate filled about me commenting on whether he’s been dying his hair. Nothing at all, it’s nothing I wouldn’t say to my best mate if I thought they’d been at it. It was merely an observation. Now if I’d said “desperate ***** has been dying his hair” I’d understand your criticism, but I assure you it’s not warranted here.

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JAWS

JAWS

Posted
Posted

Basically all of this debate could've been avoided if Lansdown hadn't made a naive & ill-judged decision to appoint him. He was well aware he split the fans as a player & that was probably at least 60/40 against him, largely due to the nepotism factor. In fact, Gary was naive appointing his son as a player & someone above him shouldve intervened. A situation that could've and should've been avoided as both Gary & later Steve are opening themselves up for potential unecessary scrutiny.

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Superjack

Superjack

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, JAWS said:

Basically all of this debate could've been avoided if Lansdown hadn't made a naive & ill-judged decision to appoint him. He was well aware he split the fans as a player & that was probably at least 60/40 against him, largely due to the nepotism factor. In fact, Gary was naive appointing his son as a player & someone above him shouldve intervened. A situation that could've and should've been avoided as both Gary & later Steve are opening themselves up for potential unecessary scrutiny.

The only problem I have with your post is the word 'unecessary'.

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JAWS

JAWS

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, JAWS said:

Basically all of this debate could've been avoided if Lansdown hadn't made a naive & ill-judged decision to appoint him. He was well aware he split the fans as a player & that was probably at least 60/40 against him, largely due to the nepotism factor. In fact, Gary was naive appointing his son as a player & someone above him shouldve intervened. A situation that could've and should've been avoided as both Gary & later Steve are opening themselves up for potential unecessary scrutiny.

In fact i believe it was ultimately Gary's undoing as was a major part in the dressing room unrest & cliques forming

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Lew-T

Lew-T

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, E.G.Red said:

Despite his faults he signed some decent players Adam Matthews, Nathan Baker and Josh Brownhill and convinced Tammy to come to the club. Wish him well with Fleetwood particularly on the 18th November 

The first name you come up with is Adam Matthews?

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maxjak

maxjak

Posted
Posted

LJ will probably do ok at Fleetwood....it's around about his level?   Coaching wise he will probably improve them, just don't let him anywhere near the budget or credit cards?    Though Always thought he would end up at Chest -SHIRE- Field?    I'll get my coat........................................

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Nogbad the Bad

Nogbad the Bad

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 10/09/2023 at 13:31, Harry said:

But, your words were still vitriolic. If you say they weren’t coming from a place of vitriol then I guess we have to accept your word. But they ‘came across’ as vitriolic. 

No, there really was no vitriol whatsoever and you either don't want to reel back from your initial OTT reaction, or you simply don't understand the meaning of the word vitriol, which I doubt.

All rather curious, you exaggerate the sentiment of my post to an extreme and then further hugely exaggerate any negative feelings you feel I have towards LJ personally by insisting I must 'despise' him, all this apparently without me even realising it myself!

My take on this is you are being so defensive towards LJ that you almost appear to be soppy about him, and as you've said you don't rate him much professionally, one can only assume you strongly admire him as a person.

If I was following your earlier line of argument I could say that you come over as besotted with LJ, and, if you can't see that - to slightly amend your earlier phrase - 'you're so far down the adore LJ rabbit hole that there's little hope for you to ever realise it.'

Of course I could be completely wrong to draw these conclusions, but no more wrong than you were when posting your bizarre over reactions to my posts.

 

 

 

Edited by Nogbad the Bad
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GlastonburyRed

GlastonburyRed

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Darren Way his assistant appointment. No Jamie Mac to be seen….

Oh, I am surprised, Hibs situation could be have been complicated I guess by Jamie Mac's lad heading up there at a crucial stage in his life. Just need Skiv to get involved now and we nearly have a full Glovers' set.

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Red Exile

Red Exile

Posted
Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

No, there really was no vitriol whatsoever and you either don't want to reel back from your initial OTT reaction, or you simply don't understand the meaning of the word vitriol, which I doubt.

All rather curious, you exaggerate the sentiment of my post to an extreme and then further hugely exaggerate any negative feelings you feel I have towards LJ personally by insisting I must 'despise' him, all this apparently without me even realising it myself!

My take on this is you are being so defensive towards LJ that you almost appear to be soppy about him, and as you've said you don't rate him much professionally, one can only assume you strongly admire him as a person.

If I was following your earlier line of argument I could say that you come over as besotted with LJ, and, if you can't see that - to slightly amend your earlier phrase - 'you're so far down the adore LJ rabbit hole that there's little hope for you to ever realise it.'

Of course I could be completely wrong to draw these conclusions, but no more wrong than you were when posting your bizarre over reactions to my posts.

 

 

 

Noggers I recall you defending me against the LJ glee club when I was calling him out on the occasion of one of his more incompetent late stage losses - against Barnsley as I recall. I was very grateful. I think we have to acknowledge that reason went out the window when judging Lee Johnson. He had a clutch of devotees who simply couldn't believe he wasn't up to the job...the job being getting us to the play-offs. Those of us who called him out were clearly motivated by hate - rather than the evidence of the league table. But hey. 

Edited by Red Exile
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Phileas Fogg

Phileas Fogg

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Noggers I recall you defending me against the LJ glee club when I was calling him out on the occasion of one of his more incompetent late stage losses - against Barnsley as I recall. I was very grateful. I think we have to acknowledge that reason went out the window when judging Lee Johnson. He had a clutch of devotees who simply couldn't believe he wasn't up to the job...the job being getting us to the play-offs. Those of us who called him out were clearly motivated by hate - rather than the evidence of the league table. But hey. 

Not sure that’s quite true..

I haven’t seen one person post on here that LJ should’ve stayed as manager - unless you can prove otherwise.

People just take objection to the personal comments. His height (irrelevant), his ability as a player (irrelevant), even (weirdly) his marriage for some reason?

You can find all three of those in this thread - almost 4 years after his sacking! 

If people want to debate his performance as a manager, especially when you factor in the disparity with how he was backed compared to Cotterill (or even Pearson!) that’s a valid point of debate. The fixation on the personal stuff is bizarre though. 

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Red Exile

Red Exile

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Not sure that’s quite true..

I haven’t seen one person post on here that LJ should’ve stayed as manager - unless you can prove otherwise.

People just take objection to the personal comments. His height (irrelevant), his ability as a player (irrelevant), even (weirdly) his marriage for some reason?

You can find all three of those in this thread - almost 4 years after his sacking! 

If people want to debate his performance as a manager, especially when you factor in the disparity with how he was backed compared to Cotterill (or even Pearson!) that’s a valid point of debate. The fixation on the personal stuff is bizarre though. 

I was a critic for more than a season before he left. Never mentioned his height, but perhaps balked at his Brent-isms. Nothing against him personally in truth, just not up to the job. Poor appointment. I got dogs abuse from folk determined that he would succeed. They were wrong, and were wrong month after month. All arguing he should stay...until he left. Did I keep a list of names? - one or two come to mind! I'm sad that I and others were right. What a waste of time and money the Johnson years proved. It wasn't necessary to 'hate' LJ or any of his characteristics to call him out as not up to the job of leading a side out of the Championship.

LJ doesn't particularly interest me these days but I object to the rewriting of OTIB history. 

Edited by Red Exile
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Phileas Fogg

Phileas Fogg

Posted
Posted
28 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I was a critic for more than a season before he left. Never mentioned his height, but perhaps balked at his Brent-isms. Nothing against him personally in truth, just not up to the job. Poor appointment. I got dogs abuse from folk determined that he would succeed. They were wrong, and were wrong month after month. All arguing he should stay...until he left. Did I keep a list of names? - one or two come to mind! I'm sad that I and others were right. What a waste of time and money the Johnson years proved. It wasn't necessary to 'hate' LJ or any of his characteristics to call him out as not up to the job of leading a side out of the Championship.

LJ doesn't particularly interest me these days but I object to the rewriting of OTIB history. 

I’m not so inclined as to trawl through peoples posts from 2016-2020 so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I think the fixation on whether you were ‘right’ and others were ‘wrong’ is a little odd though. In this context it’s completely subjective. Did Johnson leave us in a better place than when he arrived? Probably. Did he get us promoted? No. So I suppose it comes down to what your expectations were of his appointment. 

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Red Exile

Red Exile

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I’m not so inclined as to trawl through peoples posts from 2016-2020 so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I think the fixation on whether you were ‘right’ and others were ‘wrong’ is a little odd though. In this context it’s completely subjective. Did Johnson leave us in a better place than when he arrived? Probably. Did he get us promoted? No. So I suppose it comes down to what your expectations were of his appointment. 

Give me 'the benefit of the doubt'? ?

You've been on this forum for years - you don't recall people calling for LJ to go and others defending him? Don't be daft. It went on for what seemed like an age until he finally got the boot.

I'm not 'fixated' own whether I was right - although I was as it happens, right in that he was never going to get us promoted, he's never got anyone promoted. Expectations? - managed by the club's owner - personally, I was at Charlton when he appeared sat next to SL. My heart sank.

EDIT: ...anyhow, we are all City fans, and the LJ years are behind us. No need to rake over the embers of discontent! Or at least not with Lee Johnson. Pearson is a manager much more to my liking.

Edited by Red Exile
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Bristol Oil Services

Bristol Oil Services

Posted
Posted
48 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Not sure that’s quite true..

I haven’t seen one person post on here that LJ should’ve stayed as manager - unless you can prove otherwise.

People just take objection to the personal comments. His height (irrelevant), his ability as a player (irrelevant), even (weirdly) his marriage for some reason?

You can find all three of those in this thread - almost 4 years after his sacking! 

If people want to debate his performance as a manager, especially when you factor in the disparity with how he was backed compared to Cotterill (or even Pearson!) that’s a valid point of debate. The fixation on the personal stuff is bizarre though. I 

His height is irrelevant? It's (part of the reason) why he provokes so much ire, I would suggest, because short men get a rough ride in life (OTIB Breaking News) from other people, a bit like ginger haired people do, or overweight people, or people with dark skin (the list goes on). He gets picked on, partly because he is short. I would suggest. 

Why has Lee (1.68m) not managed at this level other than here for an owner he knew previously whilst his assistant at Barnsley in 2016 Paul Heckingbottom (1.8m) has gone on to coach/manage in the Prem? What has Heck got or done that Lee hasn't got or done?

A L1 promotion, you might say. And he certainly did well that first season up with Barnsley, but other than that (a lot of which must be down to Lee).

I would say that Lee's height plays a significant role in the person he is today, and the way he is perceived by others, and the way that he is treated by others. To my mind, his height is absolutely relevant.

 

 

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Davefevs

Davefevs

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

His height is irrelevant? It's (part of the reason) why he provokes so much ire, I would suggest, because short men get a rough ride in life (OTIB Breaking News) from other people, a bit like ginger haired people do, or overweight people, or people with dark skin (the list goes on). He gets picked on, partly because he is short. I would suggest. 

Why has Lee (1.68m) not managed at this level other than here for an owner he knew previously whilst his assistant at Barnsley in 2016 Paul Heckingbottom (1.8m) has gone on to coach/manage in the Prem? What has Heck got or done that Lee hasn't got or done?

A L1 promotion, you might say. And he certainly did well that first season up with Barnsley, but other than that (a lot of which must be down to Lee).

I would say that Lee's height plays a significant role in the person he is today, and the way he is perceived by others, and the way that he is treated by others. To my mind, his height is absolutely relevant.

 

 

Please tell me this isn’t a serious post.

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Carey 6

Carey 6

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, petehinton said:

Darren Way his assistant appointment. No Jamie Mac to be seen….

I actually think it was time for him to do something differently with regards to an assistant. Different ideas may help. 

I said to a mate the other day, he always seemed to do better here when we had a load of injuries and was forced into a line up.

With a lack of resource at Fleetwood (or so you’d imagine) I wonder if he’ll benefit from having to use mostly the same players each week. 

Edited by Carey 6
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nickolas

nickolas

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

I actually think it was time for him to do something differently with regards to an assistant. Different ideas may help. 

I said to a mate the other day, he always seemed to do better here when we had a load of injuries and was forced into a line up.

With a lack of resource at Fleetwood (or so you’d imagine) I wonder if he’ll benefit from having to use mostly the same players each week. 

Exactly this. So he couldnt p1ss around playing formation and selection roulette trying to be bloody clever every week!

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Son of Fred

Son of Fred

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

His height is irrelevant? It's (part of the reason) why he provokes so much ire, I would suggest, because short men get a rough ride in life (OTIB Breaking News) from other people, a bit like ginger haired people do, or overweight people, or people with dark skin (the list goes on). He gets picked on, partly because he is short. I would suggest. 

Why has Lee (1.68m) not managed at this level other than here for an owner he knew previously whilst his assistant at Barnsley in 2016 Paul Heckingbottom (1.8m) has gone on to coach/manage in the Prem? What has Heck got or done that Lee hasn't got or done?

A L1 promotion, you might say. And he certainly did well that first season up with Barnsley, but other than that (a lot of which must be down to Lee).

I would say that Lee's height plays a significant role in the person he is today, and the way he is perceived by others, and the way that he is treated by others. To my mind, his height is absolutely relevant.

 

 

I'm pleased you left his wife out of this ?

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Bristol Oil Services

Bristol Oil Services

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Please tell me this isn’t a serious post.

People make judgements about other people using information they are consciously aware of and information they are not consciously aware of. Even stat-minded, analytical people. This is a fact.

People make judgements about other people using cognitive short-cuts, or stereotypes, it saves time and mental energy. So, a short man will be subject to negative stereotypes. Like a ginger haired person, or an obese person. Fact.

Subconsciously, football club owners will have a mental idea of what a leader of highly paid, athletic young men will look like, and it won't be, for the most part, a short man. How many football managers or head coaches do you see of 5'7" or under? There's plenty of players of that height. It is the same subconscious processes that have up until recently hindered the opportunities for black football managers, still will do.

Highly paid professional "show us yer medals" footballers will subconsciously have a mental idea of what a leader looks like. What a football manager looks like.

Football crowds, or fans, are quick to pick up on "difference," and many are not given to careful consideration or sober judgement of facts. 

A six foot plus bloke has a "head" start over a 5'6" bloke. A short man has to do more to convince than a tall man (like chirpily inform you how he has been away with the SAS or a Michelin starred chef) . Because people are irrational, full of cognitive biases, and prone to falling in with the crowd when it comes to making their minds up.

And not everyone realises how they reach their conclusions about other people. Especially blokes (I think this is a Fact!, but I'm not sure. Just looking for the info now ....).

Take all this - not my opinion, but scientific fact - and add in someone thought to have been a beneficiary of nepotism, in his playing days, and his appointment as manager here, and you have a lively cocktail already for supporter ferment and irrational judgements. 

Basically, football is like being back in the playground at primary school. For most of us. A lot of the time.

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BrizzleRed

BrizzleRed

Posted
Posted
55 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

People make judgements about other people using information they are consciously aware of and information they are not consciously aware of. Even stat-minded, analytical people. This is a fact.

People make judgements about other people using cognitive short-cuts, or stereotypes, it saves time and mental energy. So, a short man will be subject to negative stereotypes. Like a ginger haired person, or an obese person. Fact.

Subconsciously, football club owners will have a mental idea of what a leader of highly paid, athletic young men will look like, and it won't be, for the most part, a short man. How many football managers or head coaches do you see of 5'7" or under? There's plenty of players of that height. It is the same subconscious processes that have up until recently hindered the opportunities for black football managers, still will do.

Highly paid professional "show us yer medals" footballers will subconsciously have a mental idea of what a leader looks like. What a football manager looks like.

Football crowds, or fans, are quick to pick up on "difference," and many are not given to careful consideration or sober judgement of facts. 

A six foot plus bloke has a "head" start over a 5'6" bloke. A short man has to do more to convince than a tall man (like chirpily inform you how he has been away with the SAS or a Michelin starred chef) . Because people are irrational, full of cognitive biases, and prone to falling in with the crowd when it comes to making their minds up.

And not everyone realises how they reach their conclusions about other people. Especially blokes (I think this is a Fact!, but I'm not sure. Just looking for the info now ....).

Take all this - not my opinion, but scientific fact - and add in someone thought to have been a beneficiary of nepotism, in his playing days, and his appointment as manager here, and you have a lively cocktail already for supporter ferment and irrational judgements. 

Basically, football is like being back in the playground at primary school. For most of us. A lot of the time.

Come on, lack of height hasn’t held Lionel Messi back, has it?

LJ, with his bullshit bingo and giving the impression of believing he was cleverer than most around him and a tactical genius, whilst the results and performances suggested otherwise were the real cause of the anti-LJ feelings I’d suggest. 

Height was just an additional stick to beat him with by some people.  You’re a plenty smart enough poster to be well aware of that, so that’s a really odd post.

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Bristol Oil Services

Bristol Oil Services

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

Come on, lack of height hasn’t held Lionel Messi back, has it?

LJ, with his bullshit bingo and giving the impression of believing he was cleverer than most around him and a tactical genius, whilst the results and performances suggested otherwise were the real cause of the anti-LJ feelings I’d suggest. 

Height was just an additional stick to beat him with by some people.  You’re a plenty smart enough poster to be well aware of that, so that’s a really odd post.

I like to think there's room on Otib for odd posts.

It's a pot-pourri of things with LJ, what I'm throwing in to the hat, is the idea that we are not always fully aware of why we think the things we think, nor the judgements and conclusions we come to, especially about other people.

I'm not saying you cannot make it as a player if you are small, although how often does a kid get told: yer too small to make it? I'm talking about Lee as a manager. 

It doesn't necessarily stop you, but it puts you at a disadvantage being quite short, I want to say. A bit like being black puts, or certainly put, ex players at a disadvantage of securing manager/leader roles. People have fixed ideas about things such as what a leader looks like (he looks like Nige, tough; not like Martin Woolford, woolly), 

There will be a reason Lee projects himself as "cleverer than most around him" and I am suggesting that his stature is part of that.

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Davefevs

Davefevs

Posted
Posted
40 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

People make judgements about other people using information they are consciously aware of and information they are not consciously aware of. Even stat-minded, analytical people. This is a fact.

People make judgements about other people using cognitive short-cuts, or stereotypes, it saves time and mental energy. So, a short man will be subject to negative stereotypes. Like a ginger haired person, or an obese person. Fact.

Subconsciously, football club owners will have a mental idea of what a leader of highly paid, athletic young men will look like, and it won't be, for the most part, a short man. How many football managers or head coaches do you see of 5'7" or under? There's plenty of players of that height. It is the same subconscious processes that have up until recently hindered the opportunities for black football managers, still will do.

Highly paid professional "show us yer medals" footballers will subconsciously have a mental idea of what a leader looks like. What a football manager looks like.

Football crowds, or fans, are quick to pick up on "difference," and many are not given to careful consideration or sober judgement of facts. 

A six foot plus bloke has a "head" start over a 5'6" bloke. A short man has to do more to convince than a tall man (like chirpily inform you how he has been away with the SAS or a Michelin starred chef) . Because people are irrational, full of cognitive biases, and prone to falling in with the crowd when it comes to making their minds up.

And not everyone realises how they reach their conclusions about other people. Especially blokes (I think this is a Fact!, but I'm not sure. Just looking for the info now ....).

Take all this - not my opinion, but scientific fact - and add in someone thought to have been a beneficiary of nepotism, in his playing days, and his appointment as manager here, and you have a lively cocktail already for supporter ferment and irrational judgements. 

Basically, football is like being back in the playground at primary school. For most of us. A lot of the time.

You were being serious.  That’s fine.

I think you are trying to force-fit some scientific research (e.g. Gladwell, etc) into why a bunch of people on a forum are either for or against LJ’s performance…and concluding “heightism” bias.

I think it’s mostly based on people’s view of his performance, and NOT based on performance influenced by height.  I might be wrong but I don’t think anyone critical of his performance because he’s short, not even subconsciously.  They are critical because of things like tactical changes, bloated squad, money spent, etc, just like those praising look at win %, league position progress, etc.

I think a view of his performance is influenced beyond the above things more by the view that there was nepotism as a player, and his particular style of play, and favouritism by the owner on appointment, and the current feelings towards the owner.  Cocktail indeed, but height is just a small ingredient.

I think height is mentioned more from a piss-take perspective because of some of the things he comes out with.

Probably worth some research on football player and football manager heights to see whether there is any reverse-correlation.  In a physical and fast sport the players will have less 5’6ers (and shorter), just like there are less 6’6ers (and taller).  Footballer heights fit a normal distribution (from studies and even as simplistic studies as taking heights from FIFA), albeit different bell-curves for different positions.  

20 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

There will be a reason Lee projects himself as "cleverer than most around him" and I am suggesting that his stature is part of that.

 My view is it isn’t height, but trying to differentiate himself from his Dad’s type of management style.

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BrizzleRed

BrizzleRed

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

I like to think there's room on Otib for odd posts.

It's a pot-pourri of things with LJ, what I'm throwing in to the hat, is the idea that we are not always fully aware of why we think the things we think, nor the judgements and conclusions we come to, especially about other people.

I'm not saying you cannot make it as a player if you are small, although how often does a kid get told: yer too small to make it? I'm talking about Lee as a manager. 

It doesn't necessarily stop you, but it puts you at a disadvantage being quite short, I want to say. A bit like being black puts, or certainly put, ex players at a disadvantage of securing manager/leader roles. People have fixed ideas about things such as what a leader looks like (he looks like Nige, tough; not like Martin Woolford, woolly), 

There will be a reason Lee projects himself as "cleverer than most around him" and I am suggesting that his stature is part of that.

Yes, the forum is all about variety and I completely get that.

The point is, football, unlike many areas in society seems to be a meritocracy, where success is rewarded, regardless of who you are.  If you can do the business, you’re, so to speak.

That’s why I don’t totally agree with what you say about black footballers.  There are plenty who get to the very highest levels on the field, so don’t appear to be disadvantaged at all there.  It may just be they don’t generally have the same desire to go into coaching and management.  I see no reason why they’d be rejected if it looked like they could ‘produce the goods’, as it didn’t hold them back on the field and football is a results business after all.

Really interesting that you raise the point about Martin Woolford.  He was shocking for quite some time, so the hair and hairband were something that didn’thelp his cause.  He  then had that great start to one season and I well remember that song starting, along the lines of ‘Woolford, Woolford, he used to be shite, but now he’s alright, oh Woolford’.  Not exactly glowingly complimentary, but people definitely warmed to him when he stopped being shit!

As for your last sentence, you’re basically describing small/short man syndrome, which is certainly understandable in his situation.  That said, they aren’t the most endearing social traits, which could equally be responsible for his low popularity rating with many fans.  A bit of a chicken and the egg situation I guess, so was he unpopular because of his height, or general demeanour.

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NickJ

NickJ

Posted
Posted
19 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

No, there really was no vitriol whatsoever and you either don't want to reel back from your initial OTT reaction, or you simply don't understand the meaning of the word vitriol, which I doubt.

All rather curious, you exaggerate the sentiment of my post to an extreme and then further hugely exaggerate any negative feelings you feel I have towards LJ personally by insisting I must 'despise' him, all this apparently without me even realising it myself!

My take on this is you are being so defensive towards LJ that you almost appear to be soppy about him, and as you've said you don't rate him much professionally, one can only assume you strongly admire him as a person.

If I was following your earlier line of argument I could say that you come over as besotted with LJ, and, if you can't see that - to slightly amend your earlier phrase - 'you're so far down the adore LJ rabbit hole that there's little hope for you to ever realise it.'

Of course I could be completely wrong to draw these conclusions, but no more wrong than you were when posting your bizarre over reactions to my posts.

 

 

 

As I pointed out to @Leveller a few posts up, there appears to be a misundertanding of the word vitriol.

A few people seem to have taken criticism of any kind as vitriol.

Your posts are not vitriolic, neither are mine, nor are the vast majority on here, as defined by the word vitriol.

Saying he's a crap manager or was a crap player, is not vitriol.

To suggest he benefitted at Bristol City from nepotism (player) and mysterious favourtism (manager) is not vitriol.

There would need to be an element of gratuitous malice.

Words such as blagger, fraud, charatan, inept, incompetent - for those who have tried to say otherwise, they are not malicious and therefore they are not vitriolic.

What is obvious from this thread and others I have seen on Sunderland and Hibs (I do, as clearly do many others on this thread, take an unexplainably perverse interest in his career) is that the vast majority of commentators think he is a crap manager for all sorts of reasons, and he is widely ridiculed.

I'd say that many on here defending him do so from a sense of perceived unjustice, which is very laudable, but I could list a page or more of examples why he is ridiculed, and I really do not understand how anyone who isn't really taken very seriously can hope to succeeed in management of any type.

 

 

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Leveller

Leveller

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, NickJ said:

As I pointed out to @Leveller a few posts up, there appears to be a misundertanding of the word vitriol.

A few people seem to have taken criticism of any kind as vitriol.

Your posts are not vitriolic, neither are mine, nor are the vast majority on here, as defined by the word vitriol.

Saying he's a crap manager or was a crap player, is not vitriol.

To suggest he benefitted at Bristol City from nepotism (player) and mysterious favourtism (manager) is not vitriol.

There would need to be an element of gratuitous malice.

Words such as blagger, fraud, charatan, inept, incompetent - for those who have tried to say otherwise, they are not malicious and therefore they are not vitriolic.

What is obvious from this thread and others I have seen on Sunderland and Hibs (I do, as clearly do many others on this thread, take an unexplainably perverse interest in his career) is that the vast majority of commentators think he is a crap manager for all sorts of reasons, and he is widely ridiculed.

I'd say that many on here defending him do so from a sense of perceived unjustice, which is very laudable, but I could list a page or more of examples why he is ridiculed, and I really do not understand how anyone who isn't really taken very seriously can hope to succeeed in management of any type.

 

 

At the end of the day, it comes down to your definition of vitriolic, or whatever. To me, it’s just the difference between an honest assessment of ability, and insults.

Words such as fraud, charlatan and blagger are all insults implying knowingly tricking people. That goes beyond not being as good a manager as you think you are. 

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NickJ

NickJ

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4 hours ago, Leveller said:

At the end of the day, it comes down to your definition of vitriolic, or whatever. To me, it’s just the difference between an honest assessment of ability, and insults.

Words such as fraud, charlatan and blagger are all insults implying knowingly tricking people. That goes beyond not being as good a manager as you think you are. 

With respect, there isn't a subjective definition of vitriol. It means what the English language says it means.

I say he is a blagger, that is my opinion, and again I would ask what word you suggest I use which conveys the same message which isn't (in your opinion) vitriolic.

It seems to me that the LJ defenders have themselves descended to sledging of posters who have expressed perfectly reasonable non vitriolic criticisms.

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Fordy62

Fordy62

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Posted

The dislike that many show is because of his misplaced very abrasive and unwarranted arrogance. There are some similarities between LJ and Joey Barton in what comes across as faux intellectual- it’s almost as if LJ reads a quote and then memorises it ready to roll it out in the post match interview (see Sharks) Joey does that too, but his tend to be on social media because he’s probably a couple of steps down on the real intelligence ladder from LJ and daren’t risk it.

This rubs people up the wrong way - people who try to be clever often do. The suggestion that it’s in any way because he’s short is complete nonsense. 

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1960maaan

1960maaan

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

Our obsession with LJ is beyond weird, even for us. 

Really, I think it's understandable for the most part , though I get it can get a little OTT. 
Remembering this is a Forum that's whole raison d'être, is to discuss and dissect.
Plus he spent 6 years here as a player, that brought it's own stories. 4 Years as a manager , that split the fans and owner more than any time before . Then add his Dad brought him here to start with & he left the club in a confused and bloated state on the playing side. 
Enough there for many to want to see what happens and possibly for some to hold a grudge . I can't think of anyone who has spent ten years here ( specially in social media times ), but if there were someone who had done that and moved on I don't doubt many would be interested in what happened after.
Whether that was hoping he succeeded or failed.

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Spike

Spike

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I think LJ's main issue is that he's a "juggler manager" and by that I don't mean he's a clown, I mean he's always trying to treat every game as a puzzle that he can figure out and this is why he earned the name "streaky Lee", because he messes with his set up, tactics, how he wants people to play etc so much that he essentially doesn't know what his own identity of his teams football is. Instead he changes his line up and tactics to counter what he feels the opposition will do so in turn when the opposition doesn't do what he expected his team are set up incorrectly. This is why he has good streaks and bad streaks, because when something works for a few games he finally sticks to it and things go well but then he'll lose a game and his brain goes into "I can fix this" mode and he begins making changes and before you know it he's got the team set up completely differently and he's losing games left right and center.

I kind of see LJ as the anti-Pearson, Pearson sticks to his guns relentlessly and tries different players based on form but his tactics remain largely the same and he has patience for things to come good, LJ is much the opposite, one thing goes wrong and he's rebuilding the squad, the tactics, the game plan etc. 

Saying this it sounds like I think he's a terrible manager, to which I would say I do not rate him as a manager, but as a role where he is a coach he could do very well as I feel he does make teams play good football, but his issue is that he cannot help himself in changing things frequently, which probably helped him with Ashton as we were constantly selling and buying so he had to change things.  I think LJ has good coaching qualities, but I think his downfall is his inability to stick with something that works because he's a perfectionist and even when something is working very well he wants it to be better and cannot leave it alone.
I suppose a good analogy of LJ is that he's an artist who paints masterpieces but is never happy with his painting, so he keeps adding, changing, painting over and before you know it he's ruined his own artwork.

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Major Isewater

Major Isewater

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1 hour ago, Spike said:

I think LJ's main issue is that he's a "juggler manager" and by that I don't mean he's a clown, I mean he's always trying to treat every game as a puzzle that he can figure out and this is why he earned the name "streaky Lee", because he messes with his set up, tactics, how he wants people to play etc so much that he essentially doesn't know what his own identity of his teams football is. Instead he changes his line up and tactics to counter what he feels the opposition will do so in turn when the opposition doesn't do what he expected his team are set up incorrectly. This is why he has good streaks and bad streaks, because when something works for a few games he finally sticks to it and things go well but then he'll lose a game and his brain goes into "I can fix this" mode and he begins making changes and before you know it he's got the team set up completely differently and he's losing games left right and center.

I kind of see LJ as the anti-Pearson, Pearson sticks to his guns relentlessly and tries different players based on form but his tactics remain largely the same and he has patience for things to come good, LJ is much the opposite, one thing goes wrong and he's rebuilding the squad, the tactics, the game plan etc. 

Saying this it sounds like I think he's a terrible manager, to which I would say I do not rate him as a manager, but as a role where he is a coach he could do very well as I feel he does make teams play good football, but his issue is that he cannot help himself in changing things frequently, which probably helped him with Ashton as we were constantly selling and buying so he had to change things.  I think LJ has good coaching qualities, but I think his downfall is his inability to stick with something that works because he's a perfectionist and even when something is working very well he wants it to be better and cannot leave it alone.
I suppose a good analogy of LJ is that he's an artist who paints masterpieces but is never happy with his painting, so he keeps adding, changing, painting over and before you know it he's ruined his own artwork.

My own impression is of a driven man who has had a lifetime of insults relating to height and footballing ability. Magnified by the shadow of his Dad’s success which I am convinced he measures himself against whilst holding GJ a little in contempt for his. ‘ old fashioned ‘ methods. 
I feel a bit sorry for LJ in some respects as if he had promoted Sunderland and it was largely his team that made it , then perhaps , he could have chilled out a bit and developed into the coach I believe he could be. 
I wish him well but I wouldn’t want him back at City. 

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