World Cup 2022 thread (football only)

[chinapig]

Just now, Rossi the Robin said:

No panic, USA sat back with good shape and was a predictable outcome, we should learn to not get over hyped.

Will draw v Wales and avoid France in the quarters 

You make it sound like USA were playing for 0-0 when they were far more positive than us.

As soon as I saw the endless passing between Maguire and Stones at the start I concluded we were playing not to lose and hoping we might nick a goal.

[Numero Uno]

It’s a good wake up call though in that XI that started tonight won’t get us far in the tournament. Cavalier Gareth is going to need some bravery and change it up.

[Rossi the Robin]

Just now, chinapig said:

You make it sound like USA were playing for 0-0 when they were far more positive than us.

As soon as I saw the endless passing between Maguire and Stones at the start I concluded we were playing not to lose and hoping we might nick a goal.

Yep the last paragraph 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Rossi the Robin

[Numero Uno]

Just now, Globe Trotter said:

One of the best young players England have ever had, yet Jordan Henderson is the answer when we need a goal. Wilson, Maddison too ignored 

Tbf Henderson made us more solid. It’s the change he didn’t make, Foden for Mount that boils my piss.

[joe jordans teeth]

1 minute ago, Wanderingred said:

Am I right I’m thinking that Wales are effectively out? They can’t overtake both Iran and USA and they’d need to beat us by four clear goals to go above us.

If they beat us 3 nil and it’s a draw tother game they could 

[BanburyRed]

Absolute garbage 

[Gazred]

Well it's typical England to put in an unde par performance when it wasn't needed. USA tidy and hard working but we're better than that.

We should of course still get out of the group but we are going nowhere special with that kind of performance.

Again, just so typical England.

[Sir Geoff]

2 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

Am I right I’m thinking that Wales are effectively out? They can’t overtake both Iran and USA and they’d need to beat us by four clear goals to go above us.

Not if Iran and USA draw. Beat us and they would be ahead of Iran on GD. Otherwise its bye bye.

[miketh2nd]

If that had been the first game it wouldn't of felt so bad but I'd still of been disappointed with our performance and Southgate's lack of changing the formation so we could have a stronger hold in midfield to push on.

[!james]

England will go through unless they lose to Wales by at least 4. 

Wales have to win… but if USA v Iran isn’t a draw, Wales have to win by at least 4 to qualify. 

USA can only go through if they beat Iran. 

Iran only need a draw to qualify, unless Wales beat England

[RedRock]

Sad.

Thought we’d really changed our mentality in the first game. Thought, ok all those shite England games I’ve watched leading us to this tournament have been worthwhile, and we’re turning up and playing a new tune.

Nope, back to Southgate-ball.

Yes, difficult opponents but we were appallingly negative. 

 

[Sheltons Army]

5 minutes ago, Globe Trotter said:

One of the best young players England have ever had, yet Jordan Henderson is the answer when we need a goal. Wilson, Maddison too ignored 

Uhmmmm

Maddison hasn’t been fit enough to even train atm

[Simon bristol]

22 minutes ago, deadredfred said:

Outplayed everywhere. Which just shouldn’t happen given the calibre of players. 

Bringing on Henderson and not Foden speaks volumes about Southgates negative tactics. 

This is it,, he set us up to try and not lose,,, and just about got away with it… whst happens when we play someone actually good is a whole different matter

[Northern Red]

5 minutes ago, Globe Trotter said:

One of the best young players England have ever had, yet Jordan Henderson is the answer when we need a goal. Wilson, Maddison too ignored 

But we didn't especially need a goal at that point, we needed to be more solid because they were all over us. Henderson did that.

Maddison is injured.

[RedorDead BCFC]

4 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

If they beat us 3 nil and it’s a draw tother game they could 

Don’t it come down to booking then, Henderson sending off writes that one off. 

[maxjak]

Cow n'Gate........."Our two centre backs controlled the Game"    He is delusional

[joe jordans teeth]

10 minutes ago, 2015 said:

It's negative. Wouldn't matter who it was against, it's negative to play that way with the squad England have

It wasn’t a negative side tho,people moaned in the euros with rice and phillips sat there breaking up play was negative,that starting eleven was attacking 

[Dredd]

I’ve never been Southgate out, based on what he’s achieved in the last two tournaments coming from where we were under Hodgson, but he is infuriatingly slow at making changes. Let’s be honest the whole team could have been subbed tonight but how Mount stayed on is mental. Kane was also a passenger for the last 35 minutes 

[cidercity1987]

1 minute ago, RedRock said:

Sad.

Thought we’d really changed our mentality in the first game. Thought, ok all those shite England games I’ve watched leading us to this tournament have been worthwhile, and we’re turning up and playing a new tune.

Nope, back to Southgate-ball.

Yes, difficult opponents but we were appallingly negative. 

 

Iran sat back, we scored an early goal and therefore smashed them

Iran sit back we don't score an early and its a totally different game maybe 0-0 maybe a 1-0 win or even worse they get us on the break

USA fantastic at pressing, poor at scoring. Score early we probably smash them. Don't score early and they get confidence to make it a difficult game

I dunno what is rocket science about the above

[joe jordans teeth]

1 minute ago, Northern Red said:

But we didn't especially need a goal at that point, we needed to be more solid because they were all over us. Henderson did that.

Maddison is injured.

I’ve seen a few on here saying he should of brought Maddison on while fuming,it’s almost comical 

[Sir Geoff]

1 minute ago, Dredd said:

I’ve never been Southgate out, based on what he’s achieved in the last two tournaments coming from where we were under Hodgson, but he is infuriatingly slow at making changes. Let’s be honest the whole team could have been subbed tonight but how Mount stayed on is mental. Kane was also a passenger for the last 35 minutes 

Only 35 minutes. I didn't notice him at all in the first half.

[robin_unreliant]

3 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Sad.

Thought we’d really changed our mentality in the first game. Thought, ok all those shite England games I’ve watched leading us to this tournament have been worthwhile, and we’re turning up and playing a new tune.

Nope, back to Southgate-ball.

Yes, difficult opponents but we were appallingly negative. 

 

Spot on. Plus Mount must have something on GS. WTF was he not off at HT, let alone still there at the end. 

[collier]

Southgate is the only person in England who though that the slow passing between the 2 centre half's was a positive thing. Maguire was our best player in terms of doing his job tonight but we wasted so much time with an extra 5 passes between him and Stones.

[!james]

 

 

 

[Sir Geoff]

2 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Iran sat back, we scored an early goal and therefore smashed them

Iran sit back we don't score an early and its a totally different game maybe 0-0 maybe a 1-0 win or even worse they get us on the break

USA fantastic at pressing, poor at scoring. Score early we probably smash them. Don't score early and they get confidence to make it a difficult game

I dunno what is rocket science about the above

35 minutes is not an early goal.

[cidercity1987]

1 minute ago, Sir Geoff said:

35 minutes is not an early goal.

Within 20 mins playing time

And you know it

[Gazred]

1 minute ago, !james said:

 

 

 

He's sugar coated that performance. I dont't blame him for that but i'm sure it was very different to the players.

[Rossi the Robin]

Everyone and the media were spunking over Kalvin Phillips after the euros first game, similar to Bellingham and then we were poor v Scotland. 
All will be fine 

[Northern Red]

Performative outrage competition is in full flow. Some strong entries so far.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Northern Red

[Maltshoveller]

5 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

Spot on. Plus Mount must have something on GS. WTF was he not off at HT, let alone still there at the end. 

Agree with you on that

Just dont get the big love in with mount

 

[joe jordans teeth]

It’s a free hit now basically,we can give Kane a rest(he had one tonight on that performance)and get Wilson up top as a proper centre forward,drop mount and get foden in,Walker needs game time and we will need him against France 

[Globe Trotter]

15 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Tbf Henderson made us more solid. It’s the change he didn’t make, Foden for Mount that boils my piss.

The fact Southgate feels the need for Henderson to make us solid against the USA tells me all I need to know 

[1960maaan]

After Iran, I'll admit it would be hard to drop anyone , I still would have but ok.

We were 2nd best for most of the game, but that changed slightly when he made the subs.
And that's my problem, he could be more proactive. 
I've no problem him bringing on Henderson, they were running through our Midfield and Bellingham, Mount and Specially Rice were nowhere to be seen. I thought we were better after. 
We didn't need to do too much, but not lose. It is not in Southgate's make-up to take risks so we can't be surprised with that game. Come the Wales game I see a similar performance, safety first and hope one of those breaks fall for us.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, joe jordans teeth said:

DM receiver for a start

Oh

[maxjak]

if your a masochist or there is someone you really dislike................the entire match is replayed at 1.40 am on BBC1.....NO!!  don't do it!!

[And Its Smith]

3 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Performative outrage competition is in full flow. Some strong entries so far.

Lots of beds being changed right now it seems 

[W-S-M Seagull]

I'm disappointed we didn't finish the job off today. 

We didn't ever really give it a go. 

It concerns me that we were just happy to settle for a point. Nah that's not for me. 

We were lacklustre, unimaginative, passionless and looked really leggy. 

Ideally we would have won tonight so that against Wales we could have fielded players like Walker etc that need some game time if we want to call upon them deeper in the competition.

But this is Southgate, the same manager that let players take pens having not touched the ball. He doesn't have the ability to think ahead. 

We now have to probably play the same lineup against Wales just in case. Wales won't roll over against us like people expect. 

What Grealish has to do to get a start I don't know. He seemed like the only one likely to make something happen today. 

It's criminal how Foden doesn't appear to be a part of Southgates plans. He is one of the most talented English players we've ever had but Southgate just doesn't rate him. 

Foden can play the role that Mount plays but for some reason Southgate sees something in Mount that none of us can see.

After that performance, from both players and management, I'm worried about our chances. 

[exAtyeoMax]

at least I managed to do my ironing safely

[W-S-M Seagull]

14 minutes ago, !james said:

 

 

 

Why does he think Foden can only play on the wing? 

Pep says that is his position in the future is in midfield. 

[downendcity]

On the basis that we go through, far better to get a performance like that out of the way in the group stage 

Imagine going through with 3 sparkling performances only to hit the buffers with such a flat performance in the knock out stage.

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by downendcity

[ExiledAjax]

If England are pleased with a point then the USA will be ecstatic. Dest or Adams were the overall MOM for me.

I think in a tournament you need to use your squad, and here Southgate didn't do that. Kane, Saka, Mount, all a little flat. If Southgate is happy with his decisions and with the result then so be it. 

I think the starting XI v Wales may say differently though. Changes should be made, and we'll win that game to go through comfortably.

Group A hasn't shown much to be feared, so QFs are every doable from here.

Edited November 25, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[Davefevs]

Tournament football…4 Pts from 2 games…through to the last 16 with a game to go (bar a 4 goal defeat to Wales), after a disappointing performance.  That’s ok.

A draw was about the right result.

I wouldn’t say we are as good as our FIFA Ranking (5th), so I don’t expect us to roll over a team ranked 16th, who showed first half v Wales how hard they are to play against, especially their press.  Perhaps Southgate might’ve looked at that and saw how Wales countered it, by playing off of Moore, but we don’t have anyone like that.  You could argue we ought to have a “big-man” in our 26 to cover that base.

Maguire played well, hopefully finding some form, Pickford didn’t really have a save to make (Pulisic hit the bar but he had it covered if it was on target.  We held firm and stopped putting ourselves into an awkward position in the group.  Completely in control of our destiny.

Perhaps Monday took a bit more out of some players?  Lessons to be learned, re freshening it up???

 

[Northern Red]

9 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I'm disappointed we didn't finish the job off today. 

We didn't ever really give it a go. 

It concerns me that we were just happy to settle for a point. Nah that's not for me. 

We were lacklustre, unimaginative, passionless and looked really leggy. 

Ideally we would have won tonight so that against Wales we could have fielded players like Walker etc that need some game time if we want to call upon them deeper in the competition.

But this is Southgate, the same manager that let players take pens having not touched the ball. He doesn't have the ability to think ahead. 

We now have to probably play the same lineup against Wales just in case. Wales won't roll over against us like people expect. 

What Grealish has to do to get a start I don't know. He seemed like the only one likely to make something happen today. 

It's criminal how Foden doesn't appear to be a part of Southgates plans. He is one of the most talented English players we've ever had but Southgate just doesn't rate him. 

Foden can play the role that Mount plays but for some reason Southgate sees something in Mount that none of us can see.

After that performance, from both players and management, I'm worried about our chances. 

I thought you were boycotting?

[W-S-M Seagull]

Just now, Northern Red said:

I thought you were boycotting?

I thought the England team were going to use this tournament to highlight the human right violations in Qatar? 

[Sturny]

You just know those who are strong verbal Southgate outers on social media 100% said the same when we drew to Scotland 

[miketh2nd]

32 minutes ago, collier said:

Southgate is the only person in England who though that the slow passing between the 2 centre half's was a positive thing. Maguire was our best player in terms of doing his job tonight but we wasted so much time with an extra 5 passes between him and Stones.

Yep If we were gonna do that all of the 2nd half we might aswell gone 3 at the back bring Walker or trent and trippier as 3rd cb.

[McNasty Filth]

Playing captain hindsight tonight, for me we could have done with highly technical players up top that you can rely on receiving the ball in tight situations, having close control on the half turn and that is Grealish and Foden over Sterling and Saka. The latter have very average close ball control for me and are more suited to running at defences into space rather than picking a lock like tonights game needed. May have even considered playing Rashomon up top instead of Kane.

Edited November 25, 2022 by jaydee=inspiration

[Offside]

Disappointing from England tonight. Very flat and lacklustre, and no intensity.  I wanted Southgate to make changes earlier to get a grip on the game.

But we are still in control of our group and on course to progress to the knockout stage, so in terms of the tournament so far so good. 

[The Original OTIB]

26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Tournament football…4 Pts from 2 games…through to the last 16 with a game to go (bar a 4 goal defeat to Wales), after a disappointing performance.  That’s ok.

A draw was about the right result.

I wouldn’t say we are as good as our FIFA Ranking (5th), so I don’t expect us to roll over a team ranked 16th, who showed first half v Wales how hard they are to play against, especially their press.  Perhaps Southgate might’ve looked at that and saw how Wales countered it, by playing off of Moore, but we don’t have anyone like that.  You could argue we ought to have a “big-man” in our 26 to cover that base.

Maguire played well, hopefully finding some form, Pickford didn’t really have a save to make (Pulisic hit the bar but he had it covered if it was on target.  We held firm and stopped putting ourselves into an awkward position in the group.  Completely in control of our destiny.

Perhaps Monday took a bit more out of some players?  Lessons to be learned, re freshening it up???

 

Yes, a Crouch type would be handy now and again.

[frenchred]

I'm fed up with people making excuses for Southgate and shouting that those of us who want him gone only shout when we are losing. No we don't. The bloke is the most negative coach to have held the role, his substitutions and game management are pathetic. To keep selecting his favourites is wrong. If the muppet concentrated on football instead of all the peripheral crap we might actually win something.

To actually claim after the game he enjoyed how we created from the back sums him up!

The quicker he is gone the quicker we can move forward

 

 

[RUSSEL85]

Kane doesn’t look fit to me 

[ScottishRed]

2 minutes ago, frenchred said:

I'm fed up with people making excuses for Southgate and shouting that those of us who want him gone only shout when we are losing. No we don't. The bloke is the most negative coach to have held the role, his substitutions and game management are pathetic. To keep selecting his favourites is wrong. If the muppet concentrated on football instead of all the peripheral crap we might actually win something.

To actually claim after the game he enjoyed how we created from the back sums him up!

The quicker he is gone the quicker we can move forward

 

 

His negativity cost England Euro 2020.

I simply do not understand why Phil Foden does not start every game if fit. He is a generational talent, ask Pep, yet he goes with Mason Mount.

Sorry, I just don’t get it.

[lenred]

1 hour ago, Northern Red said:

Performative outrage competition is in full flow. Some strong entries so far.

It’s genuinely hilarious how much some people lose their stuff over a draw. Not just on here but everywhere.  Like we have some divine right to win every game.  ‘Ing embarrassing.  

[Northern Red]

Doesn't help when ITV News are making out that England's qualification is in far more peril than is actually the case.

Sensationalist nonsense that only feeds the overreaction.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Northern Red

[cidercity1987]

9 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Doesn't help when ITV News are making out that England's qualification is in far more peril than is actually the case.

Sensationalist nonsense that only feeds the overreaction.

I thought the same

It's almost impossible that we don't go through and they are making out it's on a knife edge 

[tin]

Kane ain’t fit, one of the best young players in the world is getting splinters in his arse sat on the bench, an in-form Rashford gets 12 minutes to make an impact. 

Southgate’s clueless. We have the players to make an impact at this World Cup, but he doesn’t have a clue what to do with them. That's the issue we had at the Euro final and it's still an issue now. This 'just don't lose tactic' is exactly what lost us the Euros final.

Having followed England home and away for years, I feel gutted for anyone who went out to watch that dross tonight. 

[David Brent]

58 minutes ago, frenchred said:

I'm fed up with people making excuses for Southgate and shouting that those of us who want him gone only shout when we are losing. No we don't. The bloke is the most negative coach to have held the role, his substitutions and game management are pathetic. To keep selecting his favourites is wrong. If the muppet concentrated on football instead of all the peripheral crap we might actually win something.

To actually claim after the game he enjoyed how we created from the back sums him up!

The quicker he is gone the quicker we can move forward

 

 

You’re not going to get rid of your manager mid-tournament though 

[City1991]

Foden needs to start best since Rooney 

[2015]

1 hour ago, ScottishRed said:

His negativity cost England Euro 2020.

I simply do not understand why Phil Foden does not start every game if fit. He is a generational talent, ask Pep, yet he goes with Mason Mount.

Sorry, I just don’t get it.

Said it before the game on Monday. Why the hell is Mount starting? For me he isn't even as good as Maddison let alone Foden and Grealish. Average player at a good team in my opinion.

[petehinton]

Welcome to international tournament football lads. Tbh, it’s shite. That was basically Scotland 0-0 in the euros all over again. But guess what, basically cements us finishing top of the group. You don’t get special treatment for battering every team in your group games. You get 8 games every 2 years that really matter as a national team head coach, just don’t lose as many as you can and you’ll be fine. Thems the brakes

[pillred]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Thank you. Glad someone else is thinking it as well.

Not quite sure why he started, last 20? I mean we could have at least tried to see what we could do without him.

[pillred]

2 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Iran sat back, we scored an early goal and therefore smashed them

Iran sit back we don't score an early and its a totally different game maybe 0-0 maybe a 1-0 win or even worse they get us on the break

USA fantastic at pressing, poor at scoring. Score early we probably smash them. Don't score early and they get confidence to make it a difficult game

I dunno what is rocket science about the above

As a summing up not sure I could better that, really in football confidence is key and tonight we lacked that and well we all saw what happened, let's hope that the penny finally drops and they realise that they don't have to just turn up against teams that are so called below them because Argentina and Germany found out to there cost that it can be fatal to under estimate the opposition.   

[rednotblue]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

 

Perhaps Monday took a bit more out of some players?  Lessons to be learned, re freshening it up???

 

We did not press the USA at all so started to sit deeper and deeper, especially second half.

I get the Henderson sub. I don't get Rashford over Foden. Grealish with his technical ability caused USA problems. Maybe Foden on for Mount?

I would have taken Kane off and put Wilson on. TAA for Trippier.

I still don't get why Ben White did not come on against Iran but hey ho.

[pillred]

2 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I thought the England team were going to use this tournament to highlight the human right violations in Qatar? 

Oh come on, really? admit it you knew that was a empty gesture and have given in to your natural instincts to watch the games.   

[W-S-M Seagull]

34 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Said it before the game on Monday. Why the hell is Mount starting? For me he isn't even as good as Maddison let alone Foden and Grealish. Average player at a good team in my opinion.

And always seems to go missing in big games for club and country. 

I don't watch many Chelsea games but I've not heard any hype about him this season so doesn't look like he's pulling up trees for then currently. 

Foden however...

[pillred]

1 hour ago, lenred said:

It’s genuinely hilarious how much some people lose their stuff over a draw. Not just on here but everywhere.  Like we have some divine right to win every game.  ‘Ing embarrassing.  

So a team that got to the semi finals of the last world cup and the FINAL of the euro only last year is not by the fans expected to beat a team many places below us in the world rankings is embarrassing really? 

[lenred]

2 minutes ago, pillred said:

So a team that got to the semi finals of the last world cup and the FINAL of the euro only last year is not by the fans expected to beat a team many places below us in the world rankings is embarrassing really? 

Yep.  You got it. That’s exactly what I’m saying.   
Ps how are the WINNERS of the Euros getting on? 

[downendcity]

21 minutes ago, pillred said:

As a summing up not sure I could better that, really in football confidence is key and tonight we lacked that and well we all saw what happened, let's hope that the penny finally drops and they realise that they don't have to just turn up against teams that are so called below them because Argentina and Germany found out to there cost that it can be fatal to under estimate the opposition.   

As a previous England manager put it, in his own inimitable style......

 

[Davefevs]

58 minutes ago, rednotblue said:

I would have taken Kane off and put Wilson on

The problem that is Harry Kane.  I’m long in the belief that when the team is playing well and creating chances, Kane is a phenomenal striker / finisher.  When we can’t get out of our half he offers nowhere near enough.  He couldn’t give us a Kieffer Moore option, so we constantly couldn’t get up the pitch.

I love Bellingham, but USA did a job on him tonight, very physical with him, and the ref let them.  Rice, who I’ve really grown to like too, didn’t take advantage of the space the attention on Bellingham gave him.  And the fluid rotations of Saka, Mount and Sterling against Iran, USA didn’t allow.  I didn’t like Mount’s positioning with USA in possession tonight…too often alongside Kane.

It was a below par performance, but maybe a bit of reality for fans who expect England to rock up and win every game.  We aren’t a great team.  We have good players, I’m not doubting that, but they are good players often playing with better players at club level…and without them it sometimes shows like it did tonight.

Gerrard had Torres at club level (as well as Alonso alongside him).

Lampard had Drogba.

Imho we are in that bracket of 8th-16th, so we should (on paper) get out of the group….which we will achieve (have virtually achieved).  Whether we go last 8, last 4, last 2, will ultimately require us to play better than we did tonight.

[Red-Robbo]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The problem that is Harry Kane.  I’m long in the belief that when the team is playing well and creating chances, Kane is a phenomenal striker / finisher.  When we can’t get out of our half he offers nowhere near enough.  He couldn’t give us a Kieffer Moore option, so we constantly couldn’t get up the pitch.

I love Bellingham, but USA did a job on him tonight, very physical with him, and the ref let them.  Rice, who I’ve really grown to like too, didn’t take advantage of the space the attention on Bellingham gave him.  And the fluid rotations of Saka, Mount and Sterling against Iran, USA didn’t allow.  I didn’t like Mount’s positioning with USA in possession tonight…too often alongside Kane.

It was a below par performance, but maybe a bit of reality for fans who expect England to rock up and win every game.  We aren’t a great team.  We have good players, I’m not doubting that, but they are good players often playing with better players at club level…and without them it sometimes shows like it did tonight.

Gerrard had Torres at club level (as well as Alonso alongside him).

Lampard had Drogba.

Imho we are in that bracket of 8th-16th, so we should (on paper) get out of the group….which we will achieve (have virtually achieved).  Whether we go last 8, last 4, last 2, will ultimately require us to play better than we did tonight.

 

I watched this one - although I'm not going out of my way to watch the World Cup, I'm not weirding out and giving up my usual Friday night in the boozer!!!!

We were just too slow, too ponderous and - as has often happened with England - by the time we got the ball in the final third, they had 8 bodies back. Compare and contrast with the panic caused when the USA broke with speed.

We sat on the ball, thinking about the "ideal" pass, when just advancing with it would've been the best option. 

We also seemed happy to allow the Americans to have unchallenged possession in their half from goal kicks. The fact they could literally walk it up to the halfway line then launch it to whoever had found some space, caused us all sorts of problems. England were pressed high whenever they were on the ball in our half. We never got a free pass. 

And I don't particularly blame any England player - although I'd have made subs at half-time and brought Foden on - I blame Southgate for his relentless caution, which means we cannot break through against any club that is well-drilled and not going gung ho.