David Baddiel and Jason Lee

[Tinmans Love Child]

https://youtu.be/he6Nq2lWLJ0

Really interesting discussion between Jason Lee and David Baddiel on the infamous (and quite frankly racist) sketches from Fantasy Football League back in the 90's.  Anyone around at the time will no doubt remember the abuse Jason Lee got on the programme because of his dreadlocks, the subsequent chants about his hair, which from memory impacted his form and he dropped down the leagues.  

When you look back on the sketches now with Baddiel having a black face etc its quite surprising it was ever allowed on TV at all, even in the 90's, but there was definitely a culture at that time of everything being ok as long as you said it was banter.  I used to watch the show a lot as a teenager and didn't really think about it at the time, but looking back most of the jokes seemed to be ripping anyone in football who was deemed ugly or weird by Skinner and Baddiel.

David Baddiel is doing a new doc on anti semitism so I guess he needed to address the uncomfortable truth regarding Jason Lee as part of this, shame it took him all this time to actually apologies!

[frenchred]

24 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

https://youtu.be/he6Nq2lWLJ0

Really interesting discussion between Jason Lee and David Baddiel on the infamous (and quite frankly racist) sketches from Fantasy Football League back in the 90's.  Anyone around at the time will no doubt remember the abuse Jason Lee got on the programme because of his dreadlocks, the subsequent chants about his hair, which from memory impacted his form and he dropped down the leagues.  

When you look back on the sketches now with Baddiel having a black face etc its quite surprising it was ever allowed on TV at all, even in the 90's, but there was definitely a culture at that time of everything being ok as long as you said it was banter.  I used to watch the show a lot as a teenager and didn't really think about it at the time, but looking back most of the jokes seemed to be ripping anyone in football who was deemed ugly or weird by Skinner and Baddiel.

David Baddiel is doing a new doc on anti semitism so I guess he needed to address the uncomfortable truth regarding Jason Lee as part of this, shame it took him all this time to actually apologies!

Absolute bollocks regarding Jason Lee, it was not the fact he had dreadlocks it was that he shaped them in the form of a pineapple! Are we now saying that society views pineapples as racist?

Did you see him play? He tumbled down the league's because basically he was shit!

[Spike]

I watched his documentary about anti semitism and he spoke to Jason Lee on there, it was really interesting and I think having been targeted its really made Baddiel realise how poor it was and how much it affected Jason Lee. 

I think it takes balls for him to essentially lown up to his racist actions even if it want his intention. There is a good amount of healing done in that segment I think and much like many others who watched the show I didn't see the harm in it at the time, probably because I was young and noone taught me otherwise. Looking back at it now it really was in poor taste. 

[Tinmans Love Child]

2 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Absolute bollocks regarding Jason Lee, it was not the fact he had dreadlocks it was that he shaped them in the form of a pineapple! Are we now saying that society views pineapples as racist?

Did you see him play? He tumbled down the league's because basically he was shit!

With all due respect, Jason Lee tied up his dreadlocks when playing football, he didn't deliberately shape them into a pineapple shaped form.  I assume by your rationale it's fair game to chant about Pineapples to Semenyo as well?  

Either way, there is a symbolism to wearing dreadlocks, and for a comedian to black face and make fun of this is wrong, as David Baddiel admits.

I recommend watching the video

[REDOXO]

6 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Absolute bollocks regarding Jason Lee, it was not the fact he had dreadlocks it was that he shaped them in the form of a pineapple! Are we now saying that society views pineapples as racist?

Did you see him play? He tumbled down the league's because basically he was shit!

If he was any color you like but had a pineapple shaped hair do then he would have caught the same flack. 
 
Is Haircutism still a problem? 
 

A comic Apologizing to a black fella for having the piss taken out of him over a haircut 30 years ago, on the basis of newly perceived racism smacks of free advertising for a show about antisemitism, by a bloke who was never really that funny!
 

Even Spitting Image had a Badiel puppet retelling the same joke!

[frenchred]

7 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

With all due respect, Jason Lee tied up his dreadlocks when playing football, he didn't deliberately shape them into a pineapple shaped form.  I assume by your rationale it's fair game to chant about Pineapples to Semenyo as well?  

Either way, there is a symbolism to wearing dreadlocks, and for a comedian to black face and make fun of this is wrong, as David Baddiel admits.

I recommend watching the video

Yep, I get all that my post was more about the reception he got frommfansnand his football ability. I never watched the show in its prime as I just didn't find baddiel and skinner funny, and still don't!

Take your point though

[Tinmans Love Child]

9 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

If he was any color you like but had a pineapple shaped hair do then he would have caught the same flack. 
 
Is Haircutism still a problem? 
 

A comic Apologizing to a black fella for having the piss taken out of him over a haircut 30 years ago, on the basis of newly perceived racism smacks of free advertising for a show about antisemitism, by a bloke who was never really that funny!
 

Even Spitting Image had a Badiel puppet retelling the same joke!

I agree that the apology now seems to be because Baddiel is making a programme about racism, however as mentioned above, wearing dreadlocks isn't just a hair cut and shouldn't be trivialised like that.  

I also don't think this is newly perceived racism or cancel culture or wokism etc this sketch was no different to what the Black and White Minstrel Show did which went off air in the late 70's.

[Port Said Red]

I watched this the other day and I thought for a minute that Lee wasn't going to accept his apology. Baddiel said that he had apologised on TV, social media and in print several times, but had never apologised to him in person. Lee's reaction was "so my question is, why has it taken you 25 years?" Baddiel admitted that was equally poor on his part and that it was partly due to embarrassment and that it was only in recent years that he had come to realise how bad his behaviour had been. Lee seemed to accept this and also that he realised that he felt that he had reacted badly at the time, and shouldn't have let it get to him to the point it affected his career.

[Red-Robbo]

39 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

If he was any color you like but had a pineapple shaped hair do then he would have caught the same flack. 
 
Is Haircutism still a problem? 
 

A comic Apologizing to a black fella for having the piss taken out of him over a haircut 30 years ago, on the basis of newly perceived racism smacks of free advertising for a show about antisemitism, by a bloke who was never really that funny!
 

Even Spitting Image had a Badiel puppet retelling the same joke!

 

It's an interesting point. We basically sing a song about Massengo because of his unusual haircut, but it's obviously affectionate.

It could be argued the "you've got a pineapple on your head" chant - which was not invented by Skinner & Baddiel - gave extra prominence to a bang average player. It seems a strange thing to be obsessing about decades later, when doubtless there would have been many more unpleasant chants directed at him - and at loads of other players.

Where the sketch stepped outside 21st Century norms was in having a white bloke blacking up. We've had a long discussion on this on Otib, and I think most people now realise why this is not a good idea and have accepted it and moved on. 

[REDOXO]

30 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

I agree that the apology now seems to be because Baddiel is making a programme about racism, however as mentioned above, wearing dreadlocks isn't just a hair cut and shouldn't be trivialised like that.  

I also don't think this is newly perceived racism or cancel culture or wokism etc this sketch was no different to what the Black and White Minstrel Show did which went off air in the late 70's.

It wasn’t the dreads though was it, it was the way they were tied/bunched. At that time most of my mates in South London either had them or were in the process of growing them.
 

The blacking up went to far of course, lampooning like that just highlighted what a crap comic Badiel was and probably still is 
 

The blackand white minstrel show was part of a tv culture that existed through the 60s 70s 80s followed by Love thy neighbor, the original till death us do part (Warren Mitchell being famously Jewish, some of his pontifications on the subject are good reading and if they are not part of Badiel’s show bloody well should be) on the busses and various tv shows characterized negatively black people in this country. (Although the lampooning was often at the expense of the racist white guy) However after Brixton St Paul’s etc etc etc there was a change in the tv culture. 

7 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

It's an interesting point. We basically sing a song about Massengo because of his unusual haircut, but it's obviously affectionate.

It could be argued the "you've got a pineapple on your head" chant - which was not invented by Skinner & Baddiel - gave extra prominence to a bang average player. It seems a strange thing to be obsessing about decades later, when doubtless there would have been many more unpleasant chants directed at him - and at loads of other players.

Where the sketch stepped outside 21st Century norms was in having a white bloke blacking up. We've had a long discussion on this on Otib, and I think most people now realise why this is not a good idea and have accepted it and moved on. 

Yes I agree. 
 

I remember the Forest manager (Frank Clarke I think) getting really shirty about it, characterizing Badiel in particular and Skinner as a couple of middle class fops, with limited talent. Which is not far off the mark for Badiel. 

[Ska Junkie]

1 hour ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

With all due respect, Jason Lee tied up his dreadlocks when playing football, he didn't deliberately shape them into a pineapple shaped form.  I assume by your rationale it's fair game to chant about Pineapples to Semenyo as well?  

Either way, there is a symbolism to wearing dreadlocks, and for a comedian to black face and make fun of this is wrong, as David Baddiel admits.

I recommend watching the video

Different era tbh TLC and wouldn't be allowed now. 

Go back a bit further and the black and white minstrels were prime time viewing and everyone of them painted their faces.

 Is it the fact people are less tolerant now or are the looking to be offended (not aimed at you)? I know which I believe.

To give another example, as a kid, I loved 'love thy neighbour'. Imagine that on Tele today plus, the mighty only fools and horses would struggle to get on prime TV nowadays due to 'potentially offensive content'. My generation just found these programs funny and never even thought they were naughty at all.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Ska Junkie

[IAmNick]

27 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

My generation just found these programs funny and never even thought they were naughty at all.

That's almost certainly because you weren't the one's being "targeted" / made fun of by them in almost all cases. Most of them were cases of punching down at easy targets - gay people, black people, whatever.

It's usually pretty easy to dismiss something when you're not the butt of the joke.

[Ska Junkie]

2 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

That's almost certainly because you weren't the one's being "targeted" / made fun of by them in almost all cases. Most of them were cases of punching down at easy targets - gay people, black people, whatever.

It's usually pretty easy to dismiss something when you're not the butt of the joke.

Could be the case Nick but as a youngster at the time I didn't know.

In retort, the black and white minstrels were very, very popular back in the day, they were on everything!

[MarcusX]

2 hours ago, Spike said:

I watched his documentary about anti semitism and he spoke to Jason Lee on there, it was really interesting and I think having been targeted its really made Baddiel realise how poor it was and how much it affected Jason Lee. 

I think it takes balls for him to essentially lown up to his racist actions even if it want his intention. There is a good amount of healing done in that segment I think and much like many others who watched the show I didn't see the harm in it at the time, probably because I was young and noone taught me otherwise. Looking back at it now it really was in poor taste. 

There was a lot that went on at that time that makes for some uncomfortable viewing now. A lot of "blacking up", Craig David's been critical of Bo Selecta and the impact it had on him, some of the sketches from Little Britain and Come Fly With Me are quite cringeworthy now. Even been re-watching The Office lately (US version) and some of the stuff isn't even borderline, it's just out and out racist.

I think we've come a long way in terms of what is acceptable humour. I always thought it was odd that lots of people referred to Fammy as "Dave" too

[Red-Robbo]

4 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

I always thought it was odd that lots of people referred to Fammy as "Dave" too

Yeah, it was his last name, not his first one, that is hard to pronounce. The BBC continually calling him juju the other day is probably worse than "Dave" though...

Edited November 28, 2022 by Red-Robbo

[REDOXO]

8 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Yeah, it was his last name, not his first one, that is hard to pronounce. The BBC continually calling him juju the other day is probably worse than "Dave" though...

Azpelicuette we just call him Dave still is the chant. Nothing racist in that it’s just a joke on a strange name to pronounce (and spell. :laugh:!)

City fans knicked it for Fam. 

[TV Tom]

1 hour ago, Ska Junkie said:

Different era tbh TLC and wouldn't be allowed now. 

Go back a bit further and the black and white minstrels were prime time viewing and everyone of them painted their faces.

 Is it the fact people are less tolerant now or are the looking to be offended (not aimed at you)? I know which I believe.

To give another example, as a kid, I loved 'love thy neighbour'. Imagine that on Tele today plus, the mighty only fools and horses would struggle to get on prime TV nowadays due to 'potentially offensive content'. My generation just found these programs funny and never even thought they were naughty at all.

Even as a kid I found love thy number truly embarrassing and just about the un-funniest thing on TV yet found Til death do us part quite funny, Rigsby in rising damp must be one of the best characters ever created and wasn’t prejudiced in who he offended.

[Fodbarmyarmy]

If you have climbed the never ending steps to the away end at the Stadium of light you will have seen some "funny" comments on the landings as you climb....one of which, near the top, declares 

"You are now the same height as Jason Lee's hair"

[ralphindevon]

32 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Azpelicuette we just call him Dave still is the chant. Nothing racist in that it’s just a joke on a strange name to pronounce (and spell. :laugh:!)

City fans knicked it for Fam. 

In cricket a similar story with Indian cricketer Cheteshwar Pujara at Yorkshire was one of the incidents highlighted as being racist.

Jack Brooks, now at Somerset, was one of the players called out for calling him Steve.

I must admit I didn’t think for a second the Jason Lee thing was racist at the time, nor us calling Fam “Dave” but I guess it just shows your never too old to be educated.

[phantom]

4 hours ago, frenchred said:

Absolute bollocks regarding Jason Lee, it was not the fact he had dreadlocks it was that he shaped them in the form of a pineapple! Are we now saying that society views pineapples as racist?

Did you see him play? He tumbled down the league's because basically he was shit!

It is NOTHING to do with racism, it's how the constant abuse and piss taking impacted him mentally

[TV Tom]

Nick Hancock has also apologised recently for the awful stick Chadwick used to get about his looks in they think it’s all over, that used to be truly brutal

[REDOXO]

42 minutes ago, ralphindevon said:

In cricket a similar story with Indian cricketer Cheteshwar Pujara at Yorkshire was one of the incidents highlighted as being racist.

Jack Brooks, now at Somerset, was one of the players called out for calling him Steve.

I must admit I didn’t think for a second the Jason Lee thing was racist at the time, nor us calling Fam “Dave” but I guess it just shows your never too old to be educated.

I wonder what Aspilecuetta thinks. 
 

People have nick names, some they like some they don’t. However the name is not inherently raciest/Sexist/Gingest it’s the intent that matters. 

[ralphindevon]

4 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I wonder what Aspilecuetta thinks. 
 

People have nick names, some they like some they don’t. However the name is not inherently raciest/Sexist/Gingest it’s the intent that matters. 

Yeah I can’t imagine any of the people mentioned were losing sleep about it and I’m sure they’ve all suffered worse.

As a middle aged white man I’m certainly not going to start telling a person of colour that something isn’t racist if they think it is and the Yorkshire cricket story did get me thinking how lazy and inconsiderate it might be not to learn how to pronounce a colleague’s name.

A genuine nickname or abbreviation is a bit different but I guess it all comes down to being mindful of the person’s feelings. I can remember Lois Diony seemingly finding it very funny that people, including teammates, had mentioned the pineapple on his head but you’d have to be close to him to find out if he really found it funny. I’d like to think he did. 

[Tinmans Love Child]

48 minutes ago, ralphindevon said:

Yeah I can’t imagine any of the people mentioned were losing sleep about it and I’m sure they’ve all suffered worse.

As a middle aged white man I’m certainly not going to start telling a person of colour that something isn’t racist if they think it is and the Yorkshire cricket story did get me thinking how lazy and inconsiderate it might be not to learn how to pronounce a colleague’s name.

A genuine nickname or abbreviation is a bit different but I guess it all comes down to being mindful of the person’s feelings. I can remember Lois Diony seemingly finding it very funny that people, including teammates, had mentioned the pineapple on his head but you’d have to be close to him to find out if he really found it funny. I’d like to think he did. 

I worked for one of the Big 4 consultancies and a recent example was given where the recruits from Asia were told they all looked the same, their names were too difficult to pronounce and they should just be given a number from which they can be referred too.  This was just 2 years ago!   It will have been meant as a joke etc etc but casual racism is still rife and probably still seen as just a bit of banter with no victims (like the Jason Lee thing), 

[Tinmans Love Child]

4 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

Different era tbh TLC and wouldn't be allowed now. 

Go back a bit further and the black and white minstrels were prime time viewing and everyone of them painted their faces.

 Is it the fact people are less tolerant now or are the looking to be offended (not aimed at you)? I know which I believe.

To give another example, as a kid, I loved 'love thy neighbour'. Imagine that on Tele today plus, the mighty only fools and horses would struggle to get on prime TV nowadays due to 'potentially offensive content'. My generation just found these programs funny and never even thought they were naughty at all.

Im 44 next month and fantasy football was on when I was in my mid teens.  I don't really see it as that long ago, but obviously in terms of what is tolerated or understood now, it's worlds apart from today in terms of what is acceptable, but unlike others I don't see this as a bad thing.  

In my own experience, the people who have a problem with this change in attitudes towards what is acceptable to say are the ones who are still dishing out the abuse and they want to continue to do so, and instead of taking responsibility they blame those who stand up to their outdated attitudes 

[glynriley]

4 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

Different era tbh TLC and wouldn't be allowed now. 

Go back a bit further and the black and white minstrels were prime time viewing and everyone of them painted their faces.

 Is it the fact people are less tolerant now or are the looking to be offended (not aimed at you)? I know which I believe.

To give another example, as a kid, I loved 'love thy neighbour'. Imagine that on Tele today plus, the mighty only fools and horses would struggle to get on prime TV nowadays due to 'potentially offensive content'. My generation just found these programs funny and never even thought they were naughty at all.

Of course people are looking to be offended. That’s why they drag up things that were said 30 years ago. Attitudes and outlooks constantly change and no doubt some things that are deemed acceptable now, will be offensive in 2050. 

[MarcusX]

2 hours ago, ralphindevon said:

In cricket a similar story with Indian cricketer Cheteshwar Pujara at Yorkshire was one of the incidents highlighted as being racist.

Jack Brooks, now at Somerset, was one of the players called out for calling him Steve.

I must admit I didn’t think for a second the Jason Lee thing was racist at the time, nor us calling Fam “Dave” but I guess it just shows your never too old to be educated.

Perhaps not racist but definitely offensive to many.

This is where education comes into it, to some people their name is their identity. It’s part of their culture and their heritage. Then ask them how often their name is mispronounced, or how often they are asked if they can be called something “easier”.

Then consider how many people are discriminated on their job applications etc because of their name, and how many feel they need to “anglicise” it.

A professional footballer near the top of his game may not be too worried, but it has the potential to normalise the act or make light of it for the rest of us.

[Ska Junkie]

1 hour ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

Im 44 next month and fantasy football was on when I was in my mid teens.  I don't really see it as that long ago, but obviously in terms of what is tolerated or understood now, it's worlds apart from today in terms of what is acceptable, but unlike others I don't see this as a bad thing.  

In my own experience, the people who have a problem with this change in attitudes towards what is acceptable to say are the ones who are still dishing out the abuse and they want to continue to do so, and instead of taking responsibility they blame those who stand up to their outdated attitudes 

Never said I had a problem but people are so easily offended nowadays whereas in my younger days (I'm 55) entertainment was clearly different.

As for the 'dishing out' comment, utter rubbish. I and my ilk may not be PC nowadays but don't look for reasons to be offended and, personally, I'm content with not being PC, which doesn't mean being offensive.

[Ska Junkie]

4 hours ago, harrys said:

Even as a kid I found love thy number truly embarrassing and just about the un-funniest thing on TV yet found Til death do us part quite funny, Rigsby in rising damp must be one of the best characters ever created and wasn’t prejudiced in who he offended.

Now til death us do part was, and is, hilarious! Totally un PC by modern standards but superbly funny.

[Port Said Red]

1 minute ago, Ska Junkie said:

Now til death us do part was, and is, hilarious! Totally un PC by modern standards but superbly funny.

The trouble with it, and the reason Warren Mitchell walked away from it in the end was, it was supposed to make you laugh at the stupid right wing racist, but it ended up as a beacon for the NF and other right wing organisations.

[Maltshoveller]

4 hours ago, ralphindevon said:

In cricket a similar story with Indian cricketer Cheteshwar Pujara at Yorkshire was one of the incidents highlighted as being racist.

Jack Brooks, now at Somerset, was one of the players called out for calling him Steve.

I must admit I didn’t think for a second the Jason Lee thing was racist at the time, nor us calling Fam “Dave” but I guess it just shows your never too old to be educated.

You didnt find it racist at the time because it wasnt It was called taking the piss

Something that you can no longer do

unless it is aimed at a straight white male 

[richwwtk]

10 hours ago, Maltshoveller said:

You didnt find it racist at the time because it wasnt It was called taking the piss

Something that you can no longer do

unless it is aimed at a straight white male 

I'd love to see an example of taking the piss out of a straight white male that couldn't be applied to just about anyone with no extra offense.

If it's taking the piss out of a black person that wouldn't work or make sense if applied to a white person, then it's not taking the piss, it's racism.

[CyderInACan]

10 hours ago, Maltshoveller said:

You didnt find it racist at the time because it wasnt It was called taking the piss

Something that you can no longer do

unless it is aimed at a straight white male 

U OK HUN? 

[Trueredsupporter]

People remember Gloria McGarvey wasnt a bad player but was slaughtered by City fans in the enclosure EE for his sun tan, hair and use of hair products?

[Mendip Broadwalk]

1 hour ago, Trueredsupporter said:

People remember Gloria McGarvey wasnt a bad player but was slaughtered by City fans in the enclosure EE for his sun tan, hair and use of hair products?

Heading the ball caused an oil slick.

2 hours ago, richwwtk said:

I'd love to see an example of taking the piss out of a straight white male that couldn't be applied to just about anyone with no extra offense.

 

Gamon nazi fascist far right? you dont call these out in the politics section when chucked at those with parents who fought and were pows in the second world war. You didnt call out a poster using them against somebody with a mixed race family. Seems these cards only work one way.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Three Lions

[CyderInACan]

1 hour ago, Trueredsupporter said:

People remember Gloria McGarvey wasnt a bad player but was slaughtered by City fans in the enclosure EE for his sun tan, hair and use of hair products?

See also: Steve Jones! Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey Jonesy - I wanna know where you got that tan 

[Rob k]

2 hours ago, richwwtk said:

I'd love to see an example of taking the piss out of a straight white male that couldn't be applied to just about anyone with no extra offense.

If it's taking the piss out of a black person that wouldn't work or make sense if applied to a white person, then it's not taking the piss, it's racism.

One of my best mates is a straight white male with ginger hair - we have been in pubs where people we hardly know have taken the piss, he’s had it for 42 years, yet that’s apparently fine. 

[richwwtk]

4 minutes ago, Rob k said:

One of my best mates is a straight white male with ginger hair - we have been in pubs where people we hardly know have taken the piss, he’s had it for 42 years, yet that’s apparently fine. 

And if he was black with ginger hair then it would be equally as bad. Nothing to do with being a straight white male whatsoever.

[frenchred]

5 minutes ago, Rob k said:

One of my best mates is a straight white male with ginger hair - we have been in pubs where people we hardly know have taken the piss, he’s had it for 42 years, yet that’s apparently fine. 

Yeah but that doesn't fit today's "agenda"

[richwwtk]

12 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

Gamon nazi fascist far right? you dont call these out in the politics section when chucked at those with parents who fought and were pows in the second world war. You didnt call out a poster using them against somebody with a mixed race family. Seems these cards only work one way.

I'm sorry, do you view those terms as a form of taking the piss? If you don't then you are missing the point entirely. If you do then you do not understand the gravity of having those terms used against you.

[Mendip Broadwalk]

12 minutes ago, richwwtk said:

I'm sorry, do you view those terms as a form of taking the piss? 

No swerving. Answer the questions. 

27 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

Heading the ball caused an oil slick.

Gamon nazi fascist far right? you dont call these out in the politics section when chucked at those with parents who fought and were pows in the second world war. You didnt call out a poster using them against somebody with a mixed race family. Seems these cards only work one way.

Is it ok to call somebody a nazi when their Dad fought them and was a pow? 

 

[richwwtk]

2 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

Is it ok to call somebody a nazi when their Dad fought them and was a pow? 

If they have the attributes of a nazi then of course it is, what their father did is in no way relevant

[Mendip Broadwalk]

Just now, richwwtk said:

If they have the attributes of a nazi then of course it is, what their father did is in no way relevant

What our fathers did matters and is precious. who are the fascists and nazis on otib? There are none. Its crap your part of and dont call out. 

 

[frenchred]

9 minutes ago, richwwtk said:

If they have the attributes of a nazi then of course it is, what their father did is in no way relevant

Think your tying yourself in knots here

[Ska Junkie]

15 hours ago, Maltshoveller said:

You didnt find it racist at the time because it wasnt It was called taking the piss

Something that you can no longer do

unless it is aimed at a straight white male 

I so agree with this, non PC I accept but it's certainly accurate.

Bravo Mr Shoveller.

[richwwtk]

51 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

What our fathers did matters and is precious. who are the fascists and nazis on otib? There are none. Its crap your part of and dont call out. 

 

To the best of my knowledge nobody has ever been called a nazi on OTIB so what is there to call out?

Yes, what our fathers did is precious, but in what way does it stop somebody becoming a nazi themselves?

50 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Think your tying yourself in knots here

please explain how?

 

[LondonBristolian]

20 hours ago, MarcusX said:

There was a lot that went on at that time that makes for some uncomfortable viewing now. A lot of "blacking up", Craig David's been critical of Bo Selecta and the impact it had on him, some of the sketches from Little Britain and Come Fly With Me are quite cringeworthy now. Even been re-watching The Office lately (US version) and some of the stuff isn't even borderline, it's just out and out racist.

I think we've come a long way in terms of what is acceptable humour. I always thought it was odd that lots of people referred to Fammy as "Dave" too

I find Come Fly With ME particularly weird in that it was 2010 it came out and, even by the time of Fantasy Football in the 1990s, it was widely accepted that blacking up was no longer acceptable. There was just somehow become this idea that, if you said you were an alternative comedian, overt racism was okay - as long as you said you were being ironic when you were doing it. 

[REDOXO]

So many threads on this forum descend into a finger pointing competition around being/not being a racist/homophobe/sexist etc etc.  

The constant caricaturing of each other based upon nothing but a post on a football forum gets a bit much! 
 

But I do appreciate that when there are no City games some have way to much time on their hands. 

[BigTone]

16 hours ago, Maltshoveller said:

You didnt find it racist at the time because it wasnt It was called taking the piss

Something that you can no longer do

unless it is aimed at a straight white male 

People forget that all of this is a 2 way street for all concerned. It's those dogooders who take offence on behalf of others that need to wake up and get a life away from their keyboards.

[Tinmans Love Child]

17 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

Never said I had a problem but people are so easily offended nowadays whereas in my younger days (I'm 55) entertainment was clearly different.

As for the 'dishing out' comment, utter rubbish. I and my ilk may not be PC nowadays but don't look for reasons to be offended and, personally, I'm content with not being PC, which doesn't mean being offensive.

My comment wasn't aimed at you personally, I don't know you, although I'm not sure why anyone would be content with not being PC, if you know a term or joke or comment which you used to use back in the day is now deemed offensive, then to me it seems pretty strange to knowingly not care about that and continue to use it, just because you don't deem it offensive.  

I think the difference now is we have a much more diverse population than we did even 20/30 years ago let alone 50/60 years ago, so it's only natural that attitudes to certain things like race and religion will (and should) change.  

When I was in senior school 1990-95, in my whole school year there were 4 black kids and 0 Asian kids out of say 200 kids total.  My understanding is that minority groups make up closer to 50% of kids now.  Im sure those 4 kids in my year will have taken just as much offence to the causal racist comments, that will no doubt have been uttered from time to time, to kids from minority groups today, the difference now is to some extent strength in numbers, and those casual racist instances are getting called out more and more, and as the minority's increase, the awareness of what is or isn't racist is much more prevalent for all groups.  

It may seem like the millennials are too PC, although that's not really a bad thing is it, but actually they are more aware of what is or isn't acceptable in 2022.  I don't agree in cancel culture as I accept times have changed, but it's poor to knowingly not change your attitudes.  I would be sacked from my job if I referred to colleagues using terms from my youth, or made jokes that were deemed ok in my youth, and rightly so.  I'm not weak for having this attitude, far from it.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Tinmans Love Child

[Ska Junkie]

1 hour ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

My comment wasn't aimed at you personally, I don't know you, although I'm not sure why anyone would be content with not being PC, if you know a term or joke or comment which you used to use back in the day is now deemed offensive, then to me it seems pretty strange to knowingly not care about that and continue to use it, just because you don't deem it offensive.  

I think the difference now is we have a much more diverse population than we did even 20/30 years ago let alone 50/60 years ago, so it's only natural that attitudes to certain things like race and religion will (and should) change.  

When I was in senior school 1990-95, in my whole school year there were 4 black kids and 0 Asian kids out of say 200 kids total.  My understanding is that minority groups make up closer to 50% of kids now.  Im sure those 4 kids in my year will have taken just as much offence to the causal racist comments, that will no doubt have been uttered from time to time, to kids from minority groups today, the difference now is to some extent strength in numbers, and those casual racist instances are getting called out more and more, and as the minority's increase, the awareness of what is or isn't racist is much more prevalent for all groups.  

It may seem like the millennials are too PC, although that's not really a bad thing is it, but actually they are more aware of what is or isn't acceptable in 2022.  I don't agree in cancel culture as I accept times have changed, but it's poor to knowingly not change your attitudes.  I would be sacked from my job if I referred to colleagues using terms from my youth, or made jokes that were deemed ok in my youth, and rightly so.  I'm not weak for having this attitude, far from it.

All fair comments TLC.

I'm blaming nobody but myself and I've tried to embrace the changes but, I believe it's gone too far nowadays. I wouldn't look to offend anyone but do believe some are looking to be offended, hence my too far' comment.

While I blame nobody but myself, neither will I apologise for holding a non PC outlook. Rest assured, I am certainly not alone.

As for work, until recently, I held quite a senior position before slowing down a bit, didn't suffer at all. If it's racial, I don't see anyone as a colour, just the person and have spent many a happy hour discussing, for example, Muslim beliefs with colleagues.

I am what I am and see no reason to change and most definitely not apologise.

No offence meant in any way, to your good self or anyone else.

[Red-Robbo]

3 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I find Come Fly With ME particularly weird in that it was 2010 it came out and, even by the time of Fantasy Football in the 1990s, it was widely accepted that blacking up was no longer acceptable. There was just somehow become this idea that, if you said you were an alternative comedian, overt racism was okay - as long as you said you were being ironic when you were doing it. 

 

Not sure I agree with you there, LB. The territory where there had been the biggest controversy over blacking up was in the US, where, if you like, the original crime of mocking 'minstrel shows' and 'c**n songs' originated. Examining that sort of power structure and soft oppression began in a big way in US academia in the late 70s/early 80s when black rights got more sophisticated than the separatism/f- the police attitude of the late 60s/early 70s. 

In the much less conflicted UK, it wasn't unusual in the early 90s for people to black up for fancy dress parties, use the P- word when referring to South Asian run cornershops, call a Chinese takeaway a 'chinkie' or even tell racist jokes openly. When I worked for Virgin Megastores in the 80s, they even sold a couple of books called Racist Jokes and More Racist Jokes.

Such attitudes gradually waned and otherwise OK people who were carrying the linguistic baggage of the racist 60s and 70s began to realise that normal people didn't say stuff like "Do you want me to get anything from the P- shop?"

Now, only the elderly and fascistic openly use racist language and the connotations of blackface have become such that it's unthinkable now that a new comedy would be produced using it. 

I think if a white player had worn piled-up dreads in the way Jason Lee did, and white people do sometimes, he'd have been the subject of piss-taking. So, I don't think there was any intention to be racist, but how it looks in 2022 is an unfortunate legacy of a more naïve and clumsily offensive age. 

[BigTone]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Not sure I agree with you there, LB. The territory where there had been the biggest controversy over blacking up was in the US, where, if you like, the original crime of mocking 'minstrel shows' and 'c**n songs' originated. Examining that sort of power structure and soft oppression began in a big way in US academia in the late 70s/early 80s when black rights got more sophisticated than the separatism/f- the police attitude of the late 60s/early 70s. 

In the much less conflicted UK, it wasn't unusual in the early 90s for people to black up for fancy dress parties, use the P- word when referring to South Asian run cornershops, call a Chinese takeaway a 'chinkie' or even tell racist jokes openly. When I worked for Virgin Megastores in the 80s, they even sold a couple of books called Racist Jokes and More Racist Jokes.

Such attitudes gradually waned and otherwise OK people who were carrying the linguistic baggage of the racist 60s and 70s began to realise that normal people didn't say stuff like "Do you want me to get anything from the P- shop?"

Now, only the elderly and fascistic openly use racist language and the connotations of blackface have become such that it's unthinkable now that a new comedy would be produced using it. 

I think if a white player had worn piled-up dreads in the way Jason Lee did, and white people do sometimes, he'd have been the subject of piss-taking. So, I don't think there was any intention to be racist, but how it looks in 2022 is an unfortunate legacy of a more naïve and clumsily offensive age. 

I agree with you RR. I also think that these days some who take offence with various issues are actually more racist because they allow their minds to think in such a manner instead if looking at humour or banter. I said in a previous thread it is a 2 way street. Many people of I know of different race take the michael out of us and why not. If I'd taken offence at every anti English comment made to me in my travels then I would be a basket case by now.

I know my thoughts on race etc and I dont need anyone that doesn't know me to be judge and jury. They are the ones with the racist problem.

Too many keyboard warriors these days who are frankly clueless.

Edited November 29, 2022 by BigTone

[Rebounder]

1 hour ago, BigTone said:

I agree with you RR. I also think that these days some who take offence with various issues are actually more racist because they allow their minds to think in such a manner instead if looking at humour or banter. I said in a previous thread it is a 2 way street. Many people of I know of different race take the michael out of us and why not. If I'd taken offence at every anti English comment made to me in my travels then I would be a basket case by now.

I know my thoughts on race etc and I dont need anyone that doesn't know me to be judge and jury. They are the ones with the racist problem.

Too many keyboard warriors these days who are frankly clueless.

The problem with this is that what you may think is banter and a bit of a laugh, might not be for someone else even when they are going along with it. I had a loose friend from school who was Asian, and we used to "banter" growing up and he said looking back that it actually made him feel quite shit. He went along with it, but it reinforced the difference he already felt as one of the few Asians in our school and also added to other everyday racism he experienced elsewhere which got particularly extreme post 9/11. 

I think if you've not grown up regularly experiencing Racism then it's not going to affect you in the same way it would someone who has. I remember being away and being targeted due to my nationality, it was still scary, but I hadn't had to experience that on a regular basis like my friend and didn't trigger all those trauma responses it could in someone else. We're also not all the same and some people will experience racism and it won't affect them in the same way it does their peers. 

You say you know your thoughts on Race, and I'm sure you do. I was brought up in a very racist household and my much older sibling was quite extreme. I know that had an impact on me, and I've had to reflect on that which wasn't comfortable at times, but was even more uncomfortable for those I hurt even if I felt it was unintentional. If you're using racism as banter you really need to ask yourself why you're doing it, and think about what is going underneath for both you and the person.

It's not about being a keyboard warrior, it's just reflecting on your behaviour and listening to what people who experienced racism are saying and trying to understand it without being defensive. Me and my mates rinse eachother all the time, but you do have to have some boundaries. A work in progress. 

Edit: I do get pissed off when people still use the word Chav though.  I fit the stereotype as a teenager and was labeled as such. That was backed up by the constant press attacks on youth at the time and the likes of Little Britain. It definitely had an impact on a sub conscious level. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Rebounder

[PHILINFRANCE]

23 hours ago, REDOXO said:

The blackand white minstrel show was part of a tv culture that existed through the 60s 70s 80s followed by Love thy neighbor, the original till death us do part (Warren Mitchell being famously Jewish, some of his pontifications on the subject are good reading and if they are not part of Badiel’s show bloody well should be) on the busses and various tv shows characterized negatively black people in this country. (Although the lampooning was often at the expense of the racist white guy) However after Brixton St Paul’s etc etc etc there was a change in the tv culture. 

 

22 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

To give another example, as a kid, I loved 'love thy neighbour'. Imagine that on Tele today plus, the mighty only fools and horses would struggle to get on prime TV nowadays due to 'potentially offensive content'. My generation just found these programs funny and never even thought they were naughty at all.

I used to watch 'Love thy Neighbour' occasionally, although it certainly wasn't my favourite TV comedy of the time.

What sticks most in my mind, however, was how one of the stars, Nina Baden-Semper, was probably the first black person I ever got to chat to on a regular basis.

As a teenager back in the 1970s, I used to have a morning paper round and, unbeknown to me, Nina was one of the customers on my round - she had recently married a vicar and moved in to the neighbourhood.

I first happened upon her one morning during the school holidays, obviously starting my round later than during term time, and when, in my teenage embarrassment, I blurted out something along the lines of 'You're Barbie, aren't you?' - this was her character, and not the later partner of Ken - she smiled that lovely warm smile and told me that I should call her Nina. 

Thereafter, we would always say Hello and have a little chat.

What a beautiful lady - in the true sense of the word.  

[BigTone]

12 hours ago, Rebounder said:

The problem with this is that what you may think is banter and a bit of a laugh, might not be for someone else even when they are going along with it. I had a loose friend from school who was Asian, and we used to "banter" growing up and he said looking back that it actually made him feel quite shit. He went along with it, but it reinforced the difference he already felt as one of the few Asians in our school and also added to other everyday racism he experienced elsewhere which got particularly extreme post 9/11. 

I think if you've not grown up regularly experiencing Racism then it's not going to affect you in the same way it would someone who has. I remember being away and being targeted due to my nationality, it was still scary, but I hadn't had to experience that on a regular basis like my friend and didn't trigger all those trauma responses it could in someone else. We're also not all the same and some people will experience racism and it won't affect them in the same way it does their peers. 

You say you know your thoughts on Race, and I'm sure you do. I was brought up in a very racist household and my much older sibling was quite extreme. I know that had an impact on me, and I've had to reflect on that which wasn't comfortable at times, but was even more uncomfortable for those I hurt even if I felt it was unintentional. If you're using racism as banter you really need to ask yourself why you're doing it, and think about what is going underneath for both you and the person.

It's not about being a keyboard warrior, it's just reflecting on your behaviour and listening to what people who experienced racism are saying and trying to understand it without being defensive. Me and my mates rinse eachother all the time, but you do have to have some boundaries. A work in progress. 

Edit: I do get pissed off when people still use the word Chav though.  I fit the stereotype as a teenager and was labeled as such. That was backed up by the constant press attacks on youth at the time and the likes of Little Britain. It definitely had an impact on a sub conscious level. 

We've all been subject to racism at some point. I left home aged 16 and moved to Australia on my own to stay with distant family.  My first job was working for a German run building company where 90% of the workers did not talk English or refused to do so.  I would cop all sorts of racist comments which you either allow to get to you or you grow a thick skin and get on with life. Mostly it was banter but some you could tell meant it.  Likewise, as an Englishman in Australia you were subject to a barrage of shite for being a Pommie. Again you either get on with life or let it get you down. You learn quickly to give as good as you get and they tend to appreciate when you do. Again most of the time it is banter and back then was acceptable. Times change I suppose.

I feel sorry for your Asian friend especially post 9/11 as I'm sure a good few of the comments were uncalled for and I understand why he felt down.  I was lucky to come from a family who were in no way racist so as a kid was something I never really experienced but as I say that changed when I left home for the great wide world.  I have worked in the Middle East and also Morocco. In Saudi I did not experience any racism directed at myself but certainly migrant workers there did not have an easy ride and their treatment was uncalled for.  I have experienced racism in Morocco but mostly abuse because they think all Westerners are American. That was very much a minority and most Moroccans were fantastic people.

As I say times change and the world is now a much different place for good or for bad.

[Son of Fred]

20 hours ago, richwwtk said:

If they have the attributes of a nazi then of course it is, what their father did is in no way relevant

Not even all German soldiers during WW2 supposedly "fighting for the cause" were Nazis - far from it.

 

Your in danger of tying yourself up

[LondonBristolian]

18 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Not sure I agree with you there, LB. The territory where there had been the biggest controversy over blacking up was in the US, where, if you like, the original crime of mocking 'minstrel shows' and 'c**n songs' originated. Examining that sort of power structure and soft oppression began in a big way in US academia in the late 70s/early 80s when black rights got more sophisticated than the separatism/f- the police attitude of the late 60s/early 70s. 

In the much less conflicted UK, it wasn't unusual in the early 90s for people to black up for fancy dress parties, use the P- word when referring to South Asian run cornershops, call a Chinese takeaway a 'chinkie' or even tell racist jokes openly. When I worked for Virgin Megastores in the 80s, they even sold a couple of books called Racist Jokes and More Racist Jokes.

Such attitudes gradually waned and otherwise OK people who were carrying the linguistic baggage of the racist 60s and 70s began to realise that normal people didn't say stuff like "Do you want me to get anything from the P- shop?"

Now, only the elderly and fascistic openly use racist language and the connotations of blackface have become such that it's unthinkable now that a new comedy would be produced using it. 

I think if a white player had worn piled-up dreads in the way Jason Lee did, and white people do sometimes, he'd have been the subject of piss-taking. So, I don't think there was any intention to be racist, but how it looks in 2022 is an unfortunate legacy of a more naïve and clumsily offensive age. 

I suppose I was talking specifically about TV. I grew up in a very white village in South Gloucestershire and you're absolutely right about the fact that racist jokes and casual racist language was a part of everyday life in the 90s. And I know people blacked up for fancy dress parties. But I still think that, even from when I was 10 or so in around 1992, I knew that there had been blackface TV shows like the Black and White Minsterel show in the past and - whilst a lot of people didn't see the problem - there was a clear sense that shows like that weren't allowed on TV on any more. 

It certainly wouldn't have surprised me to learn someone blacked up for a fancy dress costume in the mid-90s but it does surprise me that TV editors/compliance people let David Baddiel wear blackface as late as 1995 (and Lucas & Walliams much later). And I to think there was a double-standard where Bernard Manning, Jethro or Minsterels as entertainment were never going to be allowed near a TV show because told racist jokes but there was a new generation of comedians who were allowed to tell racist jokes or (in rare cases) black up as long as they claimed to be mocking the fact that people were racist rather than racism itself, and I think that the line between the two was thin in practice.

Ultimately I agree that David Baddiel would never thought of his mocking of Jason Lee as being racist and, as you say, he'd have felt it was no different to mocking a white person with similar hair. But it still surprises me that - given it was an age where other forms of blacking up had been removed from television - nobody editing the programmes spotted the way it would be perceived.  

[richwwtk]

3 hours ago, Son of Fred said:

Not even all German soldiers during WW2 supposedly "fighting for the cause" were Nazis - far from it.

 

Your in danger of tying yourself up

If you reflect the values of the nazi's then surely you cannot get upset when people call you a nazi? Who your father was is irrelevant to that.

How is that tying myself up in knots?

 

[Lewisdabaron]

How long do we have to wait before “Gimmie gimmie gimmie” appoligise for their racist scene in the English restaurant “give me the blandest thing on the menu” or was that just banter?

i’ll wait. 

[richwwtk]

2 minutes ago, Lewisdabaron said:

How long do we have to wait before “Gimmie gimmie gimmie” appoligise for their racist scene in the English restaurant “give me the blandest thing on the menu” or was that just banter?

i’ll wait. 

Pointing out that Indian food is spicier than English food is hardly racist is it?

[Eddie Hitler]

Skinner and Baddiel did a lot of taking the piss out of people for their physical characteristics.

We were reminded many times that Peter Reid had "a monkey's heeed" (head) and one time they had a picture of John Barnes mocked up to show that the top of his head was smaller than the bottom of his head.

IIRC Tracey Ullman was on the show when they did that and she said something like "It's all about physicality with you, maybe he just had a difficult birth." She didn't find it funny.

It was an easy, lazy form of humour but it was that kind of show, post pub; laugh at the bloke with the odd shaped head.

I suspect Peter Reid took more stick than Jason Lee and that he didn't like it either.

Who would?

[Lewisdabaron]

6 minutes ago, richwwtk said:

Pointing out that Indian food is spicier than English food is hardly racist is it?

But blacking up is just pointing out that the person is black? Or mimicking an indian or Jamacian accent just pointing out the differences???? 

You know exactly what they meant. But it doesnt fit your anti White agenda.

Keep digging yourself into a hole-  as your usually do. 

[frenchred]

19 minutes ago, richwwtk said:

Pointing out that Indian food is spicier than English food is hardly racist is it?

Someone (normally you) will accuse someone of it

[LondonBristolian]

24 minutes ago, Lewisdabaron said:

How long do we have to wait before “Gimmie gimmie gimmie” appoligise for their racist scene in the English restaurant “give me the blandest thing on the menu” or was that just banter?

i’ll wait. 

Why on Earth would Gimme, Gimme, Gimme be apologising for a scene that appeared in a completely different TV show?

[Lewisdabaron]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Why on Earth would Gimme, Gimme, Gimme be apologising for a scene that appeared in a completely different TV show?

Or was it Goodness Gracious Me? Either way, it is still in very bad taste & should be made to appolgise nationally. 

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Why on Earth would Gimme, Gimme, Gimme be apologising for a scene that appeared in a completely different TV show?

James Dreyfus and Adam Lallana have never been seen in the same room as each other…just saying

[LondonBristolian]

24 minutes ago, Lewisdabaron said:

Or was it Goodness Gracious Me? Either way, it is still in very bad taste & should be made to appolgise nationally. 

Personally I think you'd need to be quite easily offended to get upset about someone satirising British behaviour in Indian restaurants. I don't want to speak for anyone else but I wasn't personally offended by it and I've never personally met anyone whose told me that sketch had a negative impact on their life.

On the other hand, Jason Lee talks quite eloquently about how the pineapple jokes affected him and, certainly within the industry I work in, I've met a lot of black people and people of other ethnicities who can clearly explain how negative stereotypes and perceptions of them - often reinforced by jokes - has had a direct effect on their career. And, to me at least, there is a clear difference between a joke that takes the piss out of a particular type of entitled behaviour and a joke that reinforces existing negative attitudes in a way that directly impacts on people's lives.  

I'm not trying to have a go but I genuinely don't understand why some people counter examples of racism or racist jokes with a rush to find something mildly inappropriate a Black or Asian person has said about white people and claim to be desperately upset about it as though getting offended by things people say is some kind of competitive sport.

If you genuinely have been upset and outraged by the Goodness Gracious Me sketch over twenty years, and I've missed a whole host of posts, threads and campaigns from you demanding an apology for it then - whilst I think you're overreacting somewhat - I nonetheless apologise for questioning your integrity.

But if there's no evidence anywhere that the Goodness Gracious Me sketch had upset you in any way, and you've suddenly felt the need to raise it now, twenty-odd years on, in direct response to another allegation of racism then I hope you'll forgive me for finding your motivation very suspicious.

[Tinmans Love Child]

6 hours ago, BigTone said:

We've all been subject to racism at some point. I left home aged 16 and moved to Australia on my own to stay with distant family.  My first job was working for a German run building company where 90% of the workers did not talk English or refused to do so.  I would cop all sorts of racist comments which you either allow to get to you or you grow a thick skin and get on with life. Mostly it was banter but some you could tell meant it.  Likewise, as an Englishman in Australia you were subject to a barrage of shite for being a Pommie. Again you either get on with life or let it get you down. You learn quickly to give as good as you get and they tend to appreciate when you do. Again most of the time it is banter and back then was acceptable. Times change I suppose.

I feel sorry for your Asian friend especially post 9/11 as I'm sure a good few of the comments were uncalled for and I understand why he felt down.  I was lucky to come from a family who were in no way racist so as a kid was something I never really experienced but as I say that changed when I left home for the great wide world.  I have worked in the Middle East and also Morocco. In Saudi I did not experience any racism directed at myself but certainly migrant workers there did not have an easy ride and their treatment was uncalled for.  I have experienced racism in Morocco but mostly abuse because they think all Westerners are American. That was very much a minority and most Moroccans were fantastic people.

As I say times change and the world is now a much different place for good or for bad.

Sorry to be a pedant but what you suffered in Oz is xenophobia not racism isn't it?  Not very nice obviously 

[BigTone]

31 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

Sorry to be a pedant but what you suffered in Oz is xenophobia not racism isn't it?  Not very nice obviously 

No, its racism as Australia is built on many different races of people with varying ethnic backgrounds.

Edited November 30, 2022 by BigTone