Dean Holden interview

[Never to the dark side]

https://theathletic.com/4067923/2023/01/08/dean-holden-charlton-manager/?source=weeklyemail&campaign=602288

[Edge1981]

54 minutes ago, Never to the dark side said:

https://theathletic.com/4067923/2023/01/08/dean-holden-charlton-manager/?source=weeklyemail&campaign=602288

Fancy pasting the article on here? Paywall preventing us from reading it

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Edge1981 said:

Fancy pasting the article on here? Paywall preventing us from reading it

It's quite long. The most relevant section is as follows:

Holden is sacked as Bristol City manager after six straight defeats. He’s been at the club since 2016. They are 13th in the Championship. He’d got the job having taken over as caretaker from Lee Johnson. With Holden as caretaker, Bristol City finished the season well.

“We started the next season strongly. I was nominated for two manager of the month awards and we were second at Christmas. Then the injuries hit – 17 of them. We dropped right off, as expected. I learned a lot in all my time at Bristol, a great working environment. I learned especially how to handle people and also the harsh realities of what can happen in football management.

“I had a video call with the owner a year after he sacked me, a really good chat. He actually said to me ‘I didn’t realise how good your win ratio was (at Bristol City), 45%.’ But losing that job burned me, I felt injustice and that sat with me for a long time. I’d manage in a different way now.”

Basically blames the injury crisis for derailing a good start to the season. Doesn't change my opinion of how things were going at that time.

[2015]

I don't think we were 2nd at Christmas though? Nice bloke and I wish him all the best at Charlton.

[Silvio Dante]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

It's quite long. The most relevant section is as follows:

Holden is sacked as Bristol City manager after six straight defeats. He’s been at the club since 2016. They are 13th in the Championship. He’d got the job having taken over as caretaker from Lee Johnson. With Holden as caretaker, Bristol City finished the season well.

“We started the next season strongly. I was nominated for two manager of the month awards and we were second at Christmas. Then the injuries hit – 17 of them. We dropped right off, as expected. I learned a lot in all my time at Bristol, a great working environment. I learned especially how to handle people and also the harsh realities of what can happen in football management.

“I had a video call with the owner a year after he sacked me, a really good chat. He actually said to me ‘I didn’t realise how good your win ratio was (at Bristol City), 45%.’ But losing that job burned me, I felt injustice and that sat with me for a long time. I’d manage in a different way now.”

Basically blames the injury crisis for derailing a good start to the season. Doesn't change my opinion of how things were going at that time.

Yep, agree. I do think there is a point there in that Weimann was fundamental to us and his ACL injury made a huge difference, but we weren’t a good side, even in the early part of the season. My abiding memory in that “strong start” is holding on - Bentley somehow earning us a win at Forest, Martin scoring in 90 seconds at Cardiff. Even when we were winning, it seemed we were doing so by the skin of our teeth.

The nadir was the Huddersfield game when we won 2-1 bizarrely. I’ve never seen us deserve to win a game less.
 

DHs strategy appeared to be to chuck as many forwards on as possible and see what happened. Nice guy, seems a decent coach but as a manager sorely lacking and no “I didn’t know how good the win percentage was” will convince me otherwise.

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, Silvio Dante said:

My abiding memory in that “strong start” is holding on - Bentley somehow earning us a win at Forest, Martin scoring in 90 seconds at Cardiff. Even when we were winning, it seemed we were doing so by the skin of our teeth.

The nadir was the Huddersfield game when we won 2-1 bizarrely. I’ve never seen us deserve to win a game less.

Completely agree with all this.

I'd also add that the injury crisis was in part of our own making. Not just the medical team, but also the desire of the coaches to get players back playing asap. That sort of stuff does, in part, lie at Holden's feet.

As you say the strong start to that season was lucky rather than deserved. We'd have regressed regardless of injuries, and it was  right to get rid of the vestiges of the Johnson era (including Simpson and Downing) and start a fresh rebuild under a completely new team.

Win % be damned.

[View from the Dolman]

Deleted.

Edited January 15, 2023 by View from the Dolman
Wrong thread.

[ExiledAjax]

49 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I don't think we were 2nd at Christmas though? Nice bloke and I wish him all the best at Charlton.

Was more like 10th iirc.

[2015]

45 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Completely agree with all this.

I'd also add that the injury crisis was in part of our own making. Not just the medical team, but also the desire of the coaches to get players back playing asap. That sort of stuff does, in part, lie at Holden's feet.

As you say the strong start to that season was lucky rather than deserved. We'd have regressed regardless of injuries, and it was  right to get rid of the vestiges of the Johnson era (including Simpson and Downing) and start a fresh rebuild under a completely new team.

Win % be damned.

It was lucky. We were scraping results and Bentley was on top form (especially Forest away). We were only heading one way.

Joe Williams injury as an example - Holden brought him back from Injury in a game vs Cardiff in which we lost 2-0. He then decided to play him again 3 days later in the FA Cup when Williams picked up another injury. It was an absolutely ridiculous decision.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, 2015 said:

I don't think we were 2nd at Christmas though? Nice bloke and I wish him all the best at Charlton.

 

You're not wrong. We'd lost the three matches on the run up to Christmas, and we'd had a similar bad run throughout October. 

If memory serves, we might've been second for one game, very early in the season, when everyone's played so few games that the table's a bit of an irrelevance. 

[2015]

Just now, Red-Robbo said:

 

You're not wrong. We'd lost the three matches on the run up to Christmas, and we'd had a similar bad run throughout October. 

If memory serves, we might've been second for one game, very early in the season, when everyone's played so few games that the table's a bit of an irrelevance. 

iirc City and Reading had both won their first 4 games and after 6/7 games we were 2nd. We then went on a bit of a slide.

Thank god we won those first 4 league games that season. We'd have gone down.

[pl00peh91]

I think he’s a good bloke but he has massively exaggerated the extent of our good start and the extent of the injury problems here. Surprised at how little self responsibility he’s taking but I suppose it helps the narrative for the article!

[Midlands Robin]

On the 1st of Dec we we're third on goal difference from Bournemouth with them on 27 (plus 9) and us on 27 (plus 4). That's as high as we would get for the remainder of Hodlen's time at the club.

We were top after 3 games of that season with us winning 3 from 3 and did sit up and around the play off's for most of the time between then and early December but as the record shows below: We went from 27 points on the 1st of Dec to 30 points 3 1/2 weeks later.

Championship table on the 25th Dec 2020.

1	Norwich City	20	13	4	3	29	18	11	43
2	AFC Bournemouth	20	10	8	2	35	16	19	38
3	Swansea City	20	10	6	4	23	12	11	36
4	Brentford	20	9	8	3	31	18	13	35
5	Watford	20	9	7	4	23	15	8	34
6	Middlesbrough	20	9	6	5	24	15	9	33
7	Stoke City	20	9	6	5	25	20	5	33
8	Reading	20	10	3	7	30	26	4	33
9	Bristol City	20	9	3	8	20	21	-1	30
10	Cardiff City	20	8	5	7	26	20	6	29

[Vidal]

When he went it was up there with Mciness levels of horror. Had to go.

[2015]

1 minute ago, Vidal said:

When he went it was up there with Mciness levels of horror. Had to go.

Absolutely dire wasn't it? Couldn't string 2 passes together, no shots on target happened quite often come the end

[Vidal]

6 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Absolutely dire wasn't it? Couldn't string 2 passes together, no shots on target happened quite often come the end

We were getting over run time and time again and looked completely loss….at least Mciness had the excuse of Foster, Bates, Fontaine and Mcgivern 

[ExiledAjax]

43 minutes ago, 2015 said:

It was lucky. We were scraping results and Bentley was on top form (especially Forest away). We were only heading one way.

Joe Williams injury as an example - Holden brought him back from Injury in a game vs Cardiff in which we lost 2-0. He then decided to play him again 3 days later in the FA Cup when Williams picked up another injury. It was an absolutely ridiculous decision.

The writing was on the wall in the Forest game. 4th game of the season. Then the wheels started to wobble around about 12 games in. They properly started coming off at about game 17, and he was sacked after the 30th league game of that season. 

That 13 game spell from Rotherham away through to the Reading game that was his last was the worst football I have seen us play in all the 14 or so years that I've been paying attention. 

That Huddersfield home game is the textbook example that demonstrates that "the score is the only stat that matters" is utterly shortsighted bollocks. Yes it's key to determining who takes 3 points, but if you're talking about long term success the score in one game is useless.

But ultimately all of that would have pretty much happened regardless imo. Holden simply sat on the throne whilst the sun set on the Ashton and Johnson era. Events played out as they would do because they'd been set in motion years earlier. As Canute couldn't hold back the tide* so Holden couldn't hold back the march of inevitable decline.

*to the historical pedants - I know this myth is  probably apocryphal but it helps to illustrate the point.

Edited January 15, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Absolutely dire wasn't it? Couldn't string 2 passes together, no shots on target happened quite often come the end

No corners on occasions too. It was horrendous but the number of people on here who seem to have forgotten that and use his overall record as a stick to beat the current Manager with is astounding. Even the Owner has been taken in by the sounds of it.......although that doesn't surprise me one iota.

As someone said above the 2-1 win against Huddersfield was embarrassing in the extreme and the ONLY time in my 46 years of actively supporting Bristol City that I actually felt disgusted to walk away with the points. How can a win be a disgrace you might ask.....well watch that bastard again, properly, and come back to me.

[2015]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

The writing was on the wall in the Forest game. 4th game of the season. Then the wheels started to wobble around about 12 games in. They properly started coming off at about game 17, and he was sacked after the 30th league game of that season. 

That 13 game spell from Rotherham away through to the Reading game that was his last was the worst football I have seen us play in all the 14 or so years that I've been paying attention. 

That Huddersfield home game is the textbook example that demonstrates that "the score is the only stat that matters" is utterly shortsighted bollocks. Yes it's key to determining who takes 3 points, but if you're talking about long term success the score in one game is useless.

But ultimately all of that would have pretty much happened regardless imo. Holden simply say on the throne whilst the sun set on the Ashton and Johnson era. Events played out as they would do because they'd been set in motion years earlier. As Canute couldn't hold back the tide* so Holden couldn't hold back the march of inevitable decline.

*to the historical pedants - I know this myth is  probably apocryphal but it helps to illustrate the point.

Sums up my whole thoughts about the time under Holden basically. Some saying lately the football being played is the worst in 30 years have short memories.

My god we were absolutely horrendous for those last 15 matches under Holden. By far the worst team in the league in those 15 games. I haven't seen us play much worse than that spell

[Northern Red]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

The writing was on the wall in the Forest game. 4th game of the season. Then the wheels started to wobble around about 12 games in. They properly started coming off at about game 17, and he was sacked after the 30th league game of that season. 

That 13 game spell from Rotherham away through to the Reading game that was his last was the worst football I have seen us play in all the 14 or so years that I've been paying attention. 

That Huddersfield home game is the textbook example that demonstrates that "the score is the only stat that matters" is utterly shortsighted bollocks. Yes it's key to determining who takes 3 points, but if you're talking about long term success the score in one game is useless.

But ultimately all of that would have pretty much happened regardless imo. Holden simply say on the throne whilst the sun set on the Ashton and Johnson era. Events played out as they would do because they'd been set in motion years earlier. As Canute couldn't hold back the tide* so Holden couldn't hold back the march of inevitable decline.

*to the historical pedants - I know this myth is  probably apocryphal but it helps to illustrate the point.

Rotherham away followed by Millwall at home 3 days later stands out as some of the worst back to back performances I've ever seen from a City team.

[2015]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

As someone said above the 2-1 win against Huddersfield was embarrassing in the extreme and the ONLY time in my 46 years of actively supporting Bristol City that I actually felt disgusted to walk away with the points. How can a win be a disgrace you might ask.....well watch that bastard again, properly, and come back to me.

I have never in my time supporting City been appalled that we won a game. Huddersfield had something like 26 shots on goal to our 2 which we scored from. We got hammered, but won - so all was ok Typical football fans.

[Roe]

2nd at Christmas

It was this kind of delusion that caused us major problems that we're still only just recovering from now

[ExiledAjax]

9 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I have never in my time supporting City been appalled that we won a game. Huddersfield had something like 26 shots on goal to our 2 which we scored from. We got hammered, but won - so all was ok Typical football fans.

And it's relevant today because yesterday's win wasn't like that. Yesterday we won fair and square and deserved it. That's why I don't think yesterday was a false dawn like the Huddersfield game two years ago(ish) was.

Edited January 15, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Bris Red]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

It's quite long. The most relevant section is as follows:

Holden is sacked as Bristol City manager after six straight defeats. He’s been at the club since 2016. They are 13th in the Championship. He’d got the job having taken over as caretaker from Lee Johnson. With Holden as caretaker, Bristol City finished the season well.

“We started the next season strongly. I was nominated for two manager of the month awards and we were second at Christmas. Then the injuries hit – 17 of them. We dropped right off, as expected. I learned a lot in all my time at Bristol, a great working environment. I learned especially how to handle people and also the harsh realities of what can happen in football management.

“I had a video call with the owner a year after he sacked me, a really good chat. He actually said to me ‘I didn’t realise how good your win ratio was (at Bristol City), 45%.’ But losing that job burned me, I felt injustice and that sat with me for a long time. I’d manage in a different way now.”

Basically blames the injury crisis for derailing a good start to the season. Doesn't change my opinion of how things were going at that time.

I liked Dean Holden but he should never in a million years of been offered the job here. Can’t blame him of course for taking it though, I’m sure he had a healthy pay off and as he said has used the experience to better himself as a manager - fair play to him.

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, Bris Red said:

I liked Dean Holden but he should never in a million years of been offered the job here. Can’t blame him of course for taking it though, I’m sure he had a healthy pay off and as he said has used the experience to better himself as a manager - fair play to him.

I don't blame him for much. Some of the decisions around injuries and things like that yes, but I don't think he had much choice regarding general tactics and how we played. 

Him being given the job was like asking a plumber to fix your pipes and giving him a toothbrush and a stuffed squirrel as the tools to do it with.

[chinapig]

11 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I have never in my time supporting City been appalled that we won a game. Huddersfield had something like 26 shots on goal to our 2 which we scored from. We got hammered, but won - so all was ok Typical football fans.

Well, Kalas was pretty angry in his post match interview. He knew perfectly well we had been massively outplayed and got away with it. Said something along the lines of we can't go on playing like that.

When asked who would win the upcoming game (Derby away I think) he said the team that is coached better. Pretty revealing stuff!

[Alessandro]

Nice guy Holden, but there's rose tinted glasses and there's those comments.

Agree with all everyone has already pointed out about the facts.

Holden with some re-writing history at it's best!

[italian dave]

10 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

And it's relevant today because yesterday's win wasn't like that. Yesterday we won fair and square and deserved it. That's why I don't think yesterday was a false dawn like the Huddersfield game two years ago(ish) was.

I agree yesterday was a good performance and a deserved win. 

My only reservation is that we’ve been here twice before in the past 2 years. Once last season, once earlier this, when we seemed to finally click, play some good stuff, and string together 3 or 4 results. Then the wheels fell off again!

I’ll judge whether it was a false dawn in a months time. Or just a repeat of the serial inconsistency that’s dogged us for 4 or 5 years now. 

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I agree yesterday was a good performance and a deserved win. 

My only reservation is that we’ve been here twice before in the past 2 years. Once last season, once earlier this, when we seemed to finally click, play some good stuff, and string together 3 or 4 results. Then the wheels fell off again!

I’ll judge whether it was a false dawn in a months time. Or just a repeat of the serial inconsistency that’s dogged us for 4 or 5 years now. 

So I should probably caveat my post - I'm not saying that we are off on a run of 10 wins and all our woes are over. Rather that I think we might get up to 1.3 PPG and a slight rise up the table.

If you want false dawn's yesterday then look no further than Rotherham.

[bearded_red]

Genuinely think the couple of months before he got sacked we were the worst I’ve ever seen us, even worse than during the relegations I’ve seen. Getting a corner was a moment worth celebrating let alone trying to score a goal.

Every week looked like a non league team playing a Premier League team in the third round of the cup.

[Olé]

39 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Absolutely dire wasn't it?

Yes. Clearly a nice bloke but I've never understood the retrospective love in and general rose-tinted affection people now have for him.

Spectacularly over promoted and by the end presided over monumentally bad football which as others have said, created zero chances.

Just after he left I created this view which I called the Ineptness Index (Shots on Target - Goals Conceded). If that's negative you're ****.

Not only did we set an all time championship record for fewest shots in a season, this was his "football" in the context of prior 5 seasons:

 

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Well, Kalas was pretty angry in his post match interview. He knew perfectly well we had been massively outplayed and got away with it. Said something along the lines of we can't go on playing like that.

When asked who would win the upcoming game (Derby away I think) he said the team that is coached better. Pretty revealing stuff!

Didn’t he say something like “it’s like waiting for death”!

One game later Paul Simpson said something like “we can’t sort it out”.

Dean was rather naive during his stint here. It showed how reliant we were on 3 outfield players at the time. Mawson, Weimann and Paterson. All got injured. I do think the early season form was over-achieving and unsustainable, but I think with those three players we’d have been much better than we were without them. Bentley the other player who was excelling, although he was getting lots of practice!

This is where you see how good players influence and raise the levels of others. And then you see the likes of Bakinson, Nagy, O’Dowda without them and they can’t raise their own games let alone any of their teammates.

[Major Isewater]

If he was any good he’d still be here. 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Olé said:

Yes. Clearly a nice bloke but I've never understood the retrospective love in and general rose-tinted affection people now have for him.

Spectacularly over promoted and by the end presided over monumentally bad football which as others have said, created zero chances.

Just after he left I created this view which I called the Ineptness Index (Shots on Target - Goals Conceded). If that's negative you're ****.

Not only did we set an all time championship record for fewest shots in a season, this was his "football" in the context of prior 5 seasons:

 

I’d love to see the opposite view. Shots on target (by opposition) minus goals scored by us….plotted similarly and then  on top of each other. 

[DaveF]

1 hour ago, Vidal said:

When he went it was up there with Mciness levels of horror. Had to go.

It was the worst football in the near 30 years I've been watching. I became completely disinterested and felt like I didn't really care anymore.

Edited January 15, 2023 by DaveF

[ExiledAjax]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’d love to see the opposite view. Shots on target (by opposition) minus goals scored by us….plotted similarly and then  on top of each other. 

Can you imagine that graph! Considering on average per game we allowed 4.3 on target in 20/21 under Holden, and scored 0.96.

The numbers @Olé shows are based on an average of 2.87 shots on target by us against 1.37 goals conceded.

So the opposite graph would be dramatic.

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Can you imagine that graph! Considering on average per game we allowed 4.3 on target in 20/21 under Holden, and scored 0.96.

The numbers @Olé shows are based on an average of 2.87 shots on target by us against 1.37 goals conceded.

So the opposite graph would be dramatic.

That’s why I want to see it. The y-axis use of zero to define blue or red is slightly misleading imho. Would like to see the opposite. 

[Olé]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I do think the early season form was over-achieving and unsustainable

Don't forget it coincided with Tyreeq Bakinson sitting in midfield spraying forward passes around like peak Xavi, something that came as a surprise to us fans, let alone the opposition who wouldn't have scouted him much nor prepared for that. The minute teams got wise (from memory Boro / Warnock were the first to target him) and his form invariably deteriorated (i.e. he stopped being able to pass to a teammate and lost all confidence), the Holden-ball era was as good as over. He switched in Chris Brunt (remember him!) a clapped out pensioner with all the running of a stone who couldn't manage more than one game a month and from them on he was fiddling around for any plan that might work.  

[italian dave]

28 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

So I should probably caveat my post - I'm not saying that we are off on a run of 10 wins and all our woes are over. Rather that I think we might get up to 1.3 PPG and a slight rise up the table.

If you want false dawn's yesterday then look no further than Rotherham.

Definitely.

Our false dawn earlier this season was followed by one point in six games. The season before with three points in six games. That’s what we have to change.

And actually I think you could look at the last two away draws as part of this dawn. As you say it’s not about 10 wins, it’s about turning a couple of defeats into draws, a win instead of a draw.

(See, I am glass half full)

[italian dave]

7 minutes ago, Olé said:

Don't forget it coincided with Tyreeq Bakinson sitting in midfield spraying forward passes around like peak Xavi, something that came as a surprise to us fans, let alone the opposition who wouldn't have scouted him much nor prepared for that. The minute teams got wise (from memory Boro / Warnock were the first to target him) and his form invariably deteriorated (i.e. he stopped being able to pass to a teammate and lost all confidence), the Holden-ball era was as good as over. He switched in Chris Brunt (remember him!) a clapped out pensioner with all the running of a stone who couldn't manage more than one game a month and from them on he was fiddling around for any plan that might work.  

Chris Brunt. Good grief. I’d forgotten about him. Why did you have to remind me? And how come he never made it onto that recent thread about departing players we were most upset to,lose? 

[ExiledAjax]

Just watching the EFL highlights show. Apparently Holden has repeated his little "trip to the pub" visit in south-east London.

Fair play to the guy for getting a win yesterday, three in a row in the league for him apparently and I think he left Old Trafford with his head held high. 

Always wish him well, but he was never going to succeed here.

[Lew-T]

He’s exaggerating there a tad isn’t he?The football was absolutely dross, barely any attempts at goal, corners etc.   The entertainment value was at an all time low…

Not only that, but he shouldn’t have been anywhere near the job in the first place. 

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Olé said:

Don't forget it coincided with Tyreeq Bakinson sitting in midfield spraying forward passes around like peak Xavi, something that came as a surprise to us fans, let alone the opposition who wouldn't have scouted him much nor prepared for that. The minute teams got wise (from memory Boro / Warnock were the first to target him) and his form invariably deteriorated (i.e. he stopped being able to pass to a teammate and lost all confidence), the Holden-ball era was as good as over. He switched in Chris Brunt (remember him!) a clapped out pensioner with all the running of a stone who couldn't manage more than one game a month and from them on he was fiddling around for any plan that might work.  

I haven’t forgotten!!

I was the one pushing caution over Bakinson in those first half a dozen games. 

[Barkhamred]

There were also no fans due to lockdown during his time here. So there was no crowd reaction to the standard of play.

[Numero Uno]

The only remaining question is what Manager would we have ended up with had Steve, Mark and Jon Boy not gone through a rigorous recruitment process?

[tin]

2 hours ago, DaveF said:

It was the worst football in the near 30 years I've been watching. I became completely disinterested and felt like I didn't really care anymore.

Spot on, and you’ve been following the City for the same length of time as me.

I don’t even recall times under Osman, Pulis, McInnes or SOD stooping to the lows we experienced under Holden. We were nicking wins early on, bar the win at Stoke which was the high of his time here, and there was no excuse for no shots at all — and that wasn’t a one-off.

He should never have got the job IMO and we were relegation fodder at the time he went. As others have said, nice bloke but he’s a bit delusional in that interview. 

[Simon bristol]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

I don't blame him for much. Some of the decisions around injuries and things like that yes, but I don't think he had much choice regarding general tactics and how we played. 

Him being given the job was like asking a plumber to fix your pipes and giving him a toothbrush and a stuffed squirrel as the tools to do it with.

Yeah, it was mark ashtons yes man who was responsible for injury rehab,,, what was his name again?? Ended up going to ipswich i think

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, Simon bristol said:

Yeah, it was mark ashtons yes man who was responsible for injury rehab,,, what was his name again?? Ended up going to ipswich i think

Andy Rolls.

[Simon bristol]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Andy Rolls.

Oh god,,, i recoiled at that name then!

[petehinton]

Eliasson and CO’D played centre mid. Said hardly anything to the players after losses. Allowed a culture of basically doing whatever you wanted and not doing things you didn’t want to do. Allowed Ashton to plough us full of horrific signings, aka dying for a wing back and then signed Lansbury. 
 

Said before, he was a nice guy but ultimately the culture under his tenure set us back probably 3-4 years. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by petehinton