Crossing

[The Bard]

We really need to get better at this.  It would make a big difference if we did..

[Merrick's Marvels]

(cough) Kane Wilson (cough)

[Pezo]

15 minutes ago, The Bard said:

We really need to get better at this.  It would make a big difference if we did..

It's one of those things in football like corners that I think is high expectation low real return. I suspect it's more about the whole situation rather than being good at crossing - what I mean is getting the ball quickly into the box when on the break is far more likely to return a goal rather than trying to play a perfect cross from about 6 yards out after having spent a minute working that crossing opportunity and everyone has taken there place in the middle.

[The Bard]

7 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

(cough) Kane Wilson (cough)

Wish he was left footed. Pring gets assists

[BCFCOFSWEDEN]

Where is Niclas Eliasson when we need him?

[formerly known as ivan]

Never replaced Nick Carle…

[Super]

5 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Never replaced Nick Carle…

You mean Alan Walsh.

[robin_unreliant]

5 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Never replaced Nick Carle…

Or Dave Smith.

[95red]

He still learning  & young  but bells  final ball is awful ,junior bent !!!!

[spudski]

I've posted about this before...crossing perse, creates the least amount of goals in football. It's the least affective way of trying to score a goal. 

From stats...

The average cross from open play creates a goal just 1.3 per cent of the time, so once in roughly 76 crosses.

 

[BCFC Rich]

35 minutes ago, 95red said:

He still learning  & young  but bells  final ball is awful ,junior bent !!!!

I don't think that's true. He just doesn't consistently make the right choices - when to run, cross, cross early etc. He's just a little raw. His crossing and decision-making against Stoke was excellent - but I'd agree didn't do well with crossing today. 

[pongo88]

50 minutes ago, spudski said:

I've posted about this before...crossing perse, creates the least amount of goals in football. It's the least affective way of trying to score a goal. 

From stats...

The average cross from open play creates a goal just 1.3 per cent of the time, so once in roughly 76 crosses.

 

Undoubtedly true, but is it true because a lot of players can’t cross the ball properly? It’s definitely the case with City as most crosses go low to an opposition player. 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, pongo88 said:

Undoubtedly true, but is it true because a lot of players can’t cross the ball properly? It’s definitely the case with City as most crosses go low to an opposition player. 

It's probably down to there being more defenders than strikers in the box and a GK. It's easy to defend against these days as teams are so well drilled. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

It's probably down to there being more defenders than strikers in the box and a GK. It's easy to defend against these days as teams are so well drilled. 

Tend to agree.

IMO crossing can be excellent as part of a wider strategy but excessive reliance can be cancelled out somewhat because...

A) More defenders in the box as you say, that back 4 and perhaps a defensive midfielder also dropping in.

B) Increasing number of back 3 type shapes...so a front 3 which is a decent system can cancel out crossing somewhat and the wide men can make it into a difficult 5. Clearly defensive and attacking plans and natural movement can vary it hut it can he quite inefficient when used excessively and quite easy to counteract.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Spike]

I hate the fact that we cross as much as we do, our goals in the 4-3-3 were coming from the wide players cutting inside and causing problems or even shooting, now we just seem to go for cross after cross that none of our players ever seem to know where the ball is going to go. We lack height, we lack strength and yet we want to cross where you require players to be good in the air and physical, makes no sense. If anything I think we should be working on what the best teams do, short intricate passes and one two's in around the box, show on the edge, make those diagonals runs in towards goal that pulls defenders out of position, instead we pass sideways and backwards, then play a long cross-field pass, run it up the wing and cross it in and fail to get on the end of it most of the time.

[Open End Numb Legs]

The stats might show a low return but my hunch is that angled crosses from the corner of the box are unsuccessful but getting to the by line and pulling it back is much better. Maybe that is Memheti's job, create space in the box by drawing a 2nd defender then crossing from the by line.

[Cowshed]

10 hours ago, pongo88 said:

Undoubtedly true, but is it true because a lot of players can’t cross the ball properly? It’s definitely the case with City as most crosses go low to an opposition player. 

A player could cross a ball adeptly and be consistently unsuccessful. What is the player aiming at? What are their skills? What are the skills of the opponent and what areas are they skilled at defending? Teams dropping off deny crossing opportunities. Teams playing CDM's/holding midfielders double up in wide positions forcing crosses from deeper less effective positions.

There are a lot of variables to consider.

Teams can suddenly outperform their open play crossing norms at set pieces if they have an outlier, or two to drop the ball on. Bristol City - Aden Flint!  

[Open End Numb Legs]

Further to my point above about the advantages of getting to the byline, especially on the left when attacking, a right footed player will cut inside onto their preferred foot when nearing the box. All this does is close down the space as all the defenders are moved closer together.

Unless there is an overlapping left back to pass to, the better move is to stay wide, use the space get to the byline.

This isn't a criticism of City, we see it in the Prem too. Defenders love to pack the box, the aim should be to move them around, draw them out. To be fair we have done that bit fairly well lately but the final ball, as mentioned has been poor.

[BLRed]

Not just crossing but the shambolic movement of our players when a ball is being crossed in. They all run to the same place like a moth to a flame. Where are the different angles of approach? Where is the late runner to run in to the ball that is often cut back? Our final third play is shockingly bad and the reason we rarely get a positive goal difference of 10 or more over a season. We need some real quality and intelligence injected into our attacking play.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Open End Numb Legs said:

Further to my point above about the advantages of getting to the byline, especially on the left when attacking, a right footed player will cut inside onto their preferred foot when nearing the box. All this does is close down the space as all the defenders are moved closer together.

Unless there is an overlapping left back to pass to, the better move is to stay wide, use the space get to the byline.

This isn't a criticism of City, we see it in the Prem too. Defenders love to pack the box, the aim should be to move them around, draw them out. To be fair we have done that bit fairly well lately but the final ball, as mentioned has been poor.

As a club we are in transition (still).

As a team, our playing style is in transition also.  Nige is trying to evolve the style / system from counter-attacking to a bit more possession based.

We saw post-WC a number of goals come from wide players breaking into the box against an unstructured defence, crossing across / pulling back to the 6 yard box for onrushing forwards (and backtracking defenders) for the ball to end up in the net.

Rotherham (a):

Wells breaking into box, crosses, Wes Harding og

Conway breaking into box from Naismith outball, crosses, keeper parries it onto Joe Williams and into the bet

Stoke (h):

Pring drives into the box, crosses with venom, Wells bundled over the line via chest

Coventry (a):

Pring endeavour in inside left, cross, rebounds off of Scott, Semenyo swivels in from close range

Birmingham (h):

see Stoke, but Semenyo bundling in

Pring drives into box, Sykes tap-in from 6 yards.

etc

All goals scored from crosses against un-set defences.

 

Now we are finding with a bit more possession, we are having to create different types of chances.  We are doing that coming off a good run, but further injuries and suspensions have hit us.  Simple, possible reasons.  Pring playing LCB instead of LB has deprived us of his drive on the left wing. Dasilva has played well last few games (after being distinctly average previously), but he still offers nothing like what Pring does at LB, certainly attack wise.  Having to play Pring at LCB is a big loss to our threat.

Naismith, whether it is at LCB or CM / DM, his ability to pass quickly between the lines, or into channels is also a huge loss.  It affects Scott, whose also been out injured, because he wants the ball early so he can face up his opponents.

There are probably other nuances too that are affecting our attacking output.  Even losing Semenyo, who was a player who can create something out of nothing.

 

Lets see how Nige solves this over the summer.

 

 

 

[Cowshed]

9 minutes ago, Open End Numb Legs said:

Further to my point above about the advantages of getting to the byline, especially on the left when attacking, a right footed player will cut inside onto their preferred foot when nearing the box. All this does is close down the space as all the defenders are moved closer together.

Unless there is an overlapping left back to pass to, the better move is to stay wide, use the space get to the byline.

This isn't a criticism of City, we see it in the Prem too. Defenders love to pack the box, the aim should be to move them around, draw them out. To be fair we have done that bit fairly well lately but the final ball, as mentioned has been poor.

Again you may want to consider variables. Playing a right footed player on the left could increase crease opportunity. Techy speak inversion frequently means if the player cuts in on his stronger right foot he will be attacking defenders weaker defending left foot, which can increase crossing opportunity. Inversion also alters passing patterns, patterns that can become more effective as the speed and efficiency increases.  I used could and can, the players skills will obviously effect the efficiency.

[Clutton Caveman]

11 hours ago, pongo88 said:

Undoubtedly true, but is it true because a lot of players can’t cross the ball properly? It’s definitely the case with City as most crosses go low to an opposition player. 

I guess with our current lack of height and power in our forward line crosses have to be just about perfect. Would be nice to have a plan b using a big guy from time to time.

[Sir Geoff]

42 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As a club we are in transition (still).

As a team, our playing style is in transition also.  Nige is trying to evolve the style / system from counter-attacking to a bit more possession based.

We saw post-WC a number of goals come from wide players breaking into the box against an unstructured defence, crossing across / pulling back to the 6 yard box for onrushing forwards (and backtracking defenders) for the ball to end up in the net.

Rotherham (a):

Wells breaking into box, crosses, Wes Harding og

Conway breaking into box from Naismith outball, crosses, keeper parries it onto Joe Williams and into the bet

Stoke (h):

Pring drives into the box, crosses with venom, Wells bundled over the line via chest

Coventry (a):

Pring endeavour in inside left, cross, rebounds off of Scott, Semenyo swivels in from close range

Birmingham (h):

see Stoke, but Semenyo bundling in

Pring drives into box, Sykes tap-in from 6 yards.

etc

All goals scored from crosses against un-set defences.

 

Now we are finding with a bit more possession, we are having to create different types of chances.  We are doing that coming off a good run, but further injuries and suspensions have hit us.  Simple, possible reasons.  Pring playing LCB instead of LB has deprived us of his drive on the left wing. Dasilva has played well last few games (after being distinctly average previously), but he still offers nothing like what Pring does at LB, certainly attack wise.  Having to play Pring at LCB is a big loss to our threat.

Naismith, whether it is at LCB or CM / DM, his ability to pass quickly between the lines, or into channels is also a huge loss.  It affects Scott, whose also been out injured, because he wants the ball early so he can face up his opponents.

There are probably other nuances too that are affecting our attacking output.  Even losing Semenyo, who was a player who can create something out of nothing.

 

Lets see how Nige solves this over the summer.

 

 

 

We've scored quite a few goals this way with quick breaks and pull backs / early crosses from the by line. I have noticed for a couple of months now that opposition teams have got wise to this and the keeper and first defender are both covering the near post and smothering or blocking these crosses. Thus we are getting fewer of that type of goal. Sam Bell recently pulled two crosses back to the penalty spot as the near post cross (along the 6 yard box) was covered defensively.

[Midred]

Many of our players aren't great at passing the ball but more frustrating sometimes is when we get so far up the pitch on the wings then go inside where all the defensive traffic is and lose the ball straight away.

[Kolsch]

It’s a really frustrating thing for me. We need to improve our final ball massively.

Without much height in the team we need to be varying the style of cross too (low, pull backs etc). If I’m being honest, the forwards movements need to improve also.

[Nomad]

2 hours ago, Midred said:

Many of our players aren't great at passing the ball but more frustrating sometimes is when we get so far up the pitch on the wings then go inside where all the defensive traffic is and lose the ball straight away.

I was about to add that crossing is a little like 'long passing' and as our passing was on the whole awful last night, I'm not surprised the crossing was even worse.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

We've scored quite a few goals this way with quick breaks and pull backs / early crosses from the by line. I have noticed for a couple of months now that opposition teams have got wise to this and the keeper and first defender are both covering the near post and smothering or blocking these crosses. Thus we are getting fewer of that type of goal. Sam Bell recently pulled two crosses back to the penalty spot as the near post cross (along the 6 yard box) was covered defensively.

He’s hit a few in recent games yards behind our incoming strikers, more to edge of box rather than 10 yards / pen spot…and teams have broken on us.

Not sure who or what he was aiming for.

He got closed out on one chance last night.  Wells or Conway likely get a shot away.

He very raw still, will have good moments, but the poor delivery in recent games has really frustrated me.

[mozo]

15 hours ago, spudski said:

I've posted about this before...crossing perse, creates the least amount of goals in football. It's the least affective way of trying to score a goal. 

From stats...

The average cross from open play creates a goal just 1.3 per cent of the time, so once in roughly 76 crosses.

 

What do you mean by 'creates a goal'? 

Do you mean that the very next attacking contact scores the goal?

So that doesn't include a knckdown that assists a goal? Or an attempted clearance that leads to a goal?

I suppose I'm wondering if actually crosses are of a high value, but that the goals aren't always direct from the cross?

I'm pretty sure that many of our goals come from crosses?

[SecretSam]

16 hours ago, robin_unreliant said:

Or Dave Smith.

Most of Dave Smith's crosses ended up catching a bus outside the ground. Alan Walsh, on the other hand, could land a cross on a penny.

BTW, to whom are these crosses going? Our big number 9...oh...

Edited April 19, 2023 by SecretSam
BTW

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, SecretSam said:

Most of Dave Smith's crosses ended up catching a bus outside the ground. Alan Walsh, on the other hand, could land a cross on a penny.

BTW, to whom are these crosses going? Our big number 9...oh...

Exactly. People complain about our crossing, which is woeful, but even if it was great there's no one to get on the end of it. We probably should be keeping better possession and creating different types of openings.

[Sleepy1968]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

Exactly. People complain about our crossing, which is woeful, but even if it was great there's no one to get on the end of it. We probably should be keeping better possession and creating different types of openings.

All this talk of 1980s crossing disguises that it is the most inefficient way of creating scoring chances. Ask @spudski, he's been banging on about it forever. It's a bit concerning that we choose to sign a 'winger' (if that's what Mehmeti is) and it's down to the coaches to come up with better solutoins for creating scoring chances and train it out to the players. They can start by watching the prolific teams in the better leagues - see how they create openings - what can we emulate, adapt and learn from.

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

All this talk of 1980s crossing disguises that it is the most inefficient way of creating scoring chances. Ask @spudski, he's been banging on about it forever. It's a bit concerning that we choose to sign a 'winger' (if that's what Mehmeti is) and it's down to the coaches to come up with better solutoins for creating scoring chances and train it out to the players. They can start by watching the prolific teams in the better leagues - see how they create openings - what can we emulate, adapt and learn from.

Not having a go at you or Spudski…

The problem with banging on about crosses is it’s often done by quoting “bland” stats without context.  How about some further context like, goals from crosses from the touchline, to goals from crosses from the 18 yard line, where is relation to the touchline, etc.  Thats when you can start to draw better conclusions.

 

41 crosses / 0 goals

11 crosses / 3 goals all from crosses

 

16 crosses / 3 goals from crosses (4 goals in total).

I know not everyone has data / pics, but we all watch the game.  We don’t sit there counting crosses do we?  We reflect back on what we see and reach conclusions.

The first pic was Coventry (h) 0-0.  Controlled / Dominated large parts of the game, but they sat deep / narrow and made us cross from deep and wide.  Low percentage (of scoring) type crosses.

The second pic was Rotherham (a) 3-1, first game after WC.  All 3 goals came from crosses.  Two counterattack down the inside left.  The third was a short corner where we reversed the angle and Pring timed his run against a defence pushing out.

The third pic was Brum (h) 4-2.  Semenyo and Pring tore the Brum defence a new one!

To round it off….last night:

Not hugely dissimilar to Coventry - slinging in crosses from wide and / or deep.

 

 

[spudski]

Here are some statistical finds.

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/whats-point-crossing

https://spielverlagerung.com/2015/06/22/an-ineffective-tool/

https://theathletic.com/2521493/2021/04/17/we-need-to-talk-about-crossing/

https://www.statsperform.com/resource/the-art-of-crossing/

[Davefevs]

The StatsPerform data is really good.

Good to see the far post cross has some success too.

[Sleepy1968]

20 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Not having a go at you or Spudski…

The problem with banging on about crosses is it’s often done by quoting “bland” stats without context.  How about some further context like, goals from crosses from the touchline, to goals from crosses from the 18 yard line, where is relation to the touchline, etc.  Thats when you can start to draw better conclusions.

 

41 crosses / 0 goals

11 crosses / 3 goals all from crosses

 

16 crosses / 3 goals from crosses (4 goals in total).

I know not everyone has data / pics, but we all watch the game.  We don’t sit there counting crosses do we?  We reflect back on what we see and reach conclusions.

The first pic was Coventry (h) 0-0.  Controlled / Dominated large parts of the game, but they sat deep / narrow and made us cross from deep and wide.  Low percentage (of scoring) type crosses.

The second pic was Rotherham (a) 3-1, first game after WC.  All 3 goals came from crosses.  Two counterattack down the inside left.  The third was a short corner where we reversed the angle and Pring timed his run against a defence pushing out.

The third pic was Brum (h) 4-2.  Semenyo and Pring tore the Brum defence a new one!

To round it off….last night:

Not hugely dissimilar to Coventry - slinging in crosses from wide and / or deep.

 

 

I was thinking about crosses put in hopefully/aimlessly from out wide/deep without much control, and without any real expectation of a goal being scored. You know the 'we've run out of ideas' type of cross.

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

I was thinking about crosses put in hopefully/aimlessly from out wide/deep without much control, and without any real expectation of a goal being scored. You know the 'we've run out of ideas' type of cross.

Some of the articles spud linked, pretty much say exactly that.

[spudski]

48 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Some of the articles spud linked, pretty much say exactly that.

Exactly that...going wide, or getting to the bye line and cutting back...making a pass, rather than a hopeful cross is far more productive. 

It does my noggin in, when we do all the hard work getting into a passing opportunity in the final third and we choose to cross. It doesn't make any sense. 

We construct our football in the build up with fine detail. Passing, moving, passing back so as not to lose possession, recycling etc etc...yet in the final third, ping a hopeful ball into the box, that  usually has more defenders than forwards and a keeper that can come out and stretch and use his hands. 

It literally makes no sense to do it, especially when you look at the fine detail managers/ coaches go in to,  when developing play before the final third. 

They do that...then make it a hopeful ball, with very low odds of scoring from. 

It makes no sense to do it. 

Managers want to control games...not make it a lottery. 

[Numero Uno]

22 minutes ago, spudski said:

Exactly that...going wide, or getting to the bye line and cutting back...making a pass, rather than a hopeful cross is far more productive. 

It does my noggin in, when we do all the hard work getting into a passing opportunity in the final third and we choose to cross. It doesn't make any sense. 

We construct our football in the build up with fine detail. Passing, moving, passing back so as not to lose possession, recycling etc etc...yet in the final third, ping a hopeful ball into the box, that  usually has more defenders than forwards and a keeper that can come out and stretch and use his hands. 

It literally makes no sense to do it, especially when you look at the fine detail managers/ coaches go in to,  when developing play before the final third. 

They do that...then make it a hopeful ball, with very low odds of scoring from. 

It makes no sense to do it. 

Managers want to control games...not make it a lottery. 

A cross doesn’t have to be a lottery…..if you have the quality to pick a man out or hit the right area. Beckham proved that. We just don’t have the quality and proving your point for us the majority of crosses we score from are low crosses.

The bigger issue in terms of why crossing is low reward is that the ability to cross the ball with accuracy is not coached in the same way at youth level that playing passes here there and everywhere is.

[spudski]

30 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

A cross doesn’t have to be a lottery…..if you have the quality to pick a man out or hit the right area. Beckham proved that. We just don’t have the quality and proving your point for us the majority of crosses we score from are low crosses.

The bigger issue in terms of why crossing is low reward is that the ability to cross the ball with accuracy is not coached in the same way at youth level that playing passes here there and everywhere is.

When watching games across all levels, imo, the average standard of crosses, corners, set pieces is below what it used to be in the past. The delivery is often below par for what I'd expect from a Professional footballer, when compared to that of amateur football lower down the pryamids. 

However even with a cross into the box that has quality, you'll often have more defenders and a keeper that can use his arms and hands. Being able to jump, and use your hands negates a lot of what a cross brings. 

A pass is much more productive. 

[Major Isewater]

On 19/04/2023 at 11:23, Davefevs said:

As a club we are in transition (still).

As a team, our playing style is in transition also.  Nige is trying to evolve the style / system from counter-attacking to a bit more possession based.

We saw post-WC a number of goals come from wide players breaking into the box against an unstructured defence, crossing across / pulling back to the 6 yard box for onrushing forwards (and backtracking defenders) for the ball to end up in the net.

Rotherham (a):

Wells breaking into box, crosses, Wes Harding og

Conway breaking into box from Naismith outball, crosses, keeper parries it onto Joe Williams and into the bet

Stoke (h):

Pring drives into the box, crosses with venom, Wells bundled over the line via chest

Coventry (a):

Pring endeavour in inside left, cross, rebounds off of Scott, Semenyo swivels in from close range

Birmingham (h):

see Stoke, but Semenyo bundling in

Pring drives into box, Sykes tap-in from 6 yards.

etc

All goals scored from crosses against un-set defences.

 

Now we are finding with a bit more possession, we are having to create different types of chances.  We are doing that coming off a good run, but further injuries and suspensions have hit us.  Simple, possible reasons.  Pring playing LCB instead of LB has deprived us of his drive on the left wing. Dasilva has played well last few games (after being distinctly average previously), but he still offers nothing like what Pring does at LB, certainly attack wise.  Having to play Pring at LCB is a big loss to our threat.

Naismith, whether it is at LCB or CM / DM, his ability to pass quickly between the lines, or into channels is also a huge loss.  It affects Scott, whose also been out injured, because he wants the ball early so he can face up his opponents.

There are probably other nuances too that are affecting our attacking output.  Even losing Semenyo, who was a player who can create something out of nothing.

 

Lets see how Nige solves this over the summer.

 

 

 

Can’t beat a good box entry.

[Daniro]

Well I'm no statistician, but I tell you, Conway's goal on Saturday from that wonderful cross from Pring was sheer delight.     I get it,  9 times out of ten there'd be nobody in the right place or if there were, they'd mis-head it, but when it comes together like that, it is a thing of beauty.

 

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

On 18/04/2023 at 22:41, BCFC Rich said:

I don't think that's true. He just doesn't consistently make the right choices - when to run, cross, cross early etc. He's just a little raw. His crossing and decision-making against Stoke was excellent - but I'd agree didn't do well with crossing today. 

You have to remember that Bell is a striker, not a winger. Strikers are generally not known for their crossing ability.

[mozo]

Two goals from crosses in one game ain't bad!

[Numero Uno]

5 hours ago, Daniro said:

Well I'm no statistician, but I tell you, Conway's goal on Saturday from that wonderful cross from Pring was sheer delight.     I get it,  9 times out of ten there'd be nobody in the right place or if there were, they'd mis-head it, but when it comes together like that, it is a thing of beauty.

 

 

Conway’s goal on Saturday proved that if you get the quality right you can score from crosses AND you don’t need a 6’9” lump on the end of them either. It’s the quality that needs to improve. Pring’s cross was as good as anything you see at Prem level, took two defenders out, had pace on it and just needed Conway to get a good connection.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Numero Uno

[mozo]

And another one!

[mozo]

40 minutes ago, mozo said:

And another one!

Make that two!