Mr Popodopolous Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 (edited) How can a Council especially when local authorities are not exactly flush do this...anyone?? If it's a loan with interest that's different but...seems very very wrong to me, assume it's not some grand pledge to win some votes which will be forgotten about. Welsh Government grant for the £25m and the rest funded via a partnership involving varied bodies. Edited April 19, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 19, 2023 Author Share Posted April 19, 2023 Well okay seems it's Welsh Government having re-read but what a cheek either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midred Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 Are Rovers negotiating to buy their old stand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarksRobin Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 Ban them from the English Football League 2 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calculus Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 Can't really see a problem here - there's already a number council owned/funded stadia. Wrexham has staged Wales matches over the years, and am sure could be described a the biggest stadium in North Wales. Maybe the locals think that the investment will bring business and jobs into the town - probably correctly. Good luck to 'em. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarksRobin Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 13 minutes ago, Calculus said: Can't really see a problem here - there's already a number council owned/funded stadia. Wrexham has staged Wales matches over the years, and am sure could be described a the biggest stadium in North Wales. Maybe the locals think that the investment will bring business and jobs into the town - probably correctly. Good luck to 'em. At a time where councils complain their budgets are stretched and they need to increase council tax and cut services, is it right to be handing cash to a private business with demonstrably wealthy owners? 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, WarksRobin said: At a time where councils complain their budgets are stretched and they need to increase council tax and cut services, is it right to be handing cash to a private business with demonstrably wealthy owners? So long as it is done openly, honestly and legally then I don't see an issue. It would be up to the electorate to decide if they like it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calculus Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 9 minutes ago, WarksRobin said: At a time where councils complain their budgets are stretched and they need to increase council tax and cut services, is it right to be handing cash to a private business with demonstrably wealthy owners? Quick answer: yes. the investment will bring jobs in the construction itself, more visitors, more jobs in leisure. All in all, a bit of growth in an area that very much needs it. (As an aside, I would add that the many local councils that I've had dealings with over the years have been fantastically incompetent and wasteful. I'm not saying they don't face difficult problems but running things properly would be a decent start. Don't know many folk who think Bristol City Council is well run. Anyhoo, that's a whole different thread). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 19, 2023 Author Share Posted April 19, 2023 I suppose it could bring in some kind of medium to long term benefit, Cost-benefit analysis is a factor. Could the council get some sort of stake in the success too maybe. Councils do have to raise more of their own revenue these days, changes across the last 10-15 years probably but £25m on one stand as far as public money goes seems exorbitant on the face of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
italian dave Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 42 minutes ago, WarksRobin said: At a time where councils complain their budgets are stretched and they need to increase council tax and cut services, is it right to be handing cash to a private business with demonstrably wealthy owners? If it’s coming from a Welsh government grant then it’s not going to be money that could otherwise be spent on either reducing council tax or on other local services. Same as if it had been the levelling up money from the UK government which was also applied for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 The population of Wrexham is about 130,000. Wrexham attendances around 10,000. There will be a lot of people struggling with Council Tax among other things that have no interest in Football, they would be rightly pissed off at funding the Football Club which is owned by a multi millionaire . Add in Reynolds made a reported £22m for Deadpool , I would be more than slightly miffed. If you were wondering, Rob McElhenney has a net worth of $50 million. Imagine if R*vers or us were given a massive input of Council money and not the other, that's how non football fans would feel. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baba Yaga Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 I don't think the entire 25m is for the new stand, sounds like it's for other things too, also the funding is not completely from the Welsh gov? https://news.wrexham.gov.uk/councillors-consider-new-package-to-finance-key-parts-of-wrexham-gateway-project-including-new-kop/ To be fair if it means hosting international games in North Wales again then the gov could chuck a bit a few million at improving the stand and it wouldn't hurt. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingswood Robin Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 Why don't we try it? Use some money from the council to buy some better players, our league position improves, crowds go up, more money is spent in the local area. That's before we even consider the mental health benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjo Island Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 Surprised marvin aint followed suit and pledged millions for the blue fews fruit bowl dream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderInACan Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 42 minutes ago, Calculus said: Don't know many folk who think Bristol City Council is well run. Anyhoo, that's a whole different thread). Someone actually runs Bristol City Council? I had always thought it was just made up as they went along? It's always seemed that way . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 I guarantee this ends up in the Politics section! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Welsh Government grant for the £25m This is all part of a massive redevelopment of a terribly run down place (i've been there recently, but not to the football). Will bring massive improvements to the railway station, surrounding area and the football club. To me just the sort of project the state should be investing in, unlike HS2, Cross-Rail, London Underground, The London Stadium, rebuild of Houses of Parliament, rebuild of Buckingham Palace etc etc etc 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, Banjo Island said: Surprised marvin aint followed suit and pledged millions for the blue fews fruit bowl dream Well they seem to think they will be getting some sort of help, even if it's only for surrounding infrastructure. I think that Wrexham only having one team helps with justification and as others have said, drawing International games and maybe other big events into the area makes it a sensible investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 2 minutes ago, Hxj said: This is all part of a massive redevelopment of a terribly run down place (i've been there recently, but not to the football). Will bring massive improvements to the railway station, surrounding area and the football club. To me just the sort of project the state should be investing in, unlike HS2, Cross-Rail, London Underground, The London Stadium, rebuild of Houses of Parliament, rebuild of Buckingham Palace etc etc etc I am not sure about that particular one, having worked at the House of Lords offices a little way down the road, I think the refurb will pay for itself if it means they no longer have to pay the incredible rents on those buildings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 19, 2023 Author Share Posted April 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, Hxj said: This is all part of a massive redevelopment of a terribly run down place (i've been there recently, but not to the football). Will bring massive improvements to the railway station, surrounding area and the football club. To me just the sort of project the state should be investing in, unlike HS2, Cross-Rail, London Underground, The London Stadium, rebuild of Houses of Parliament, rebuild of Buckingham Palace etc etc etc Interesting thanks. Suppose bringing up areas of deprivation is important and isn't the best wording by me but I imagine Wrexham and the surrounding areas has its difficulties. That could be positive but ROI? Yeah London seems to get an absolute metric ton of investment doesn't it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, Port Said Red said: I am not sure about that particular one, having worked at the House of Lords offices a little way down the road, I think the refurb will pay for itself if it means they no longer have to pay the incredible rents on those buildings. I would pull it all down and rebuild new for a fraction of the price. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon bristol Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 Im sure none of the counsellors who approved this are interested in hobnobbing with ryan reynolds, going to partys, having pics taken maybe even appearing on the disney documentary or anything like that? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oh Louie louie Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 Too many big clubs close by, to make it pay.weekly, agree with Simon knowing local councils showbiz's rubbed off, you don't see many chairman having selfies with players tbf, screams publicity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 15 minutes ago, Hxj said: I would pull it all down and rebuild new for a fraction of the price. That's a very American attitude to what is an iconic building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 27 minutes ago, Port Said Red said: That's a very American attitude to what is an iconic building. New buildings can be iconic too I heard it was full of rats - and not just the politicians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretSam Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 Councils can invest in social infrastructure. It's their money, eg pension pots. All sorts of things are funded by LA funding. If the football club have to pay the Council a return, or it creates local jobs, etc etc. It'd be a really interesting business case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretSam Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 59 minutes ago, Hxj said: This is all part of a massive redevelopment of a terribly run down place (i've been there recently, but not to the football). Will bring massive improvements to the railway station, surrounding area and the football club. To me just the sort of project the state should be investing in, unlike HS2, Cross-Rail, London Underground, The London Stadium, rebuild of Houses of Parliament, rebuild of Buckingham Palace etc etc etc There's huge social value associated with infrastructure investment - local jobs in construction, supply chain, hospitality (workers have to live/eat/socialise somewhere), wider multiplier value from increased spending in the local area, etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oh Louie louie Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 As regards to the racecourse hosting wales games, maybe one meaningless friendly a year, Swansea don't take much business of the millennium do they, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 43 minutes ago, Hxj said: New buildings can be iconic too I heard it was full of rats - and not just the politicians Everything within a mile of the Thames has rats, any new building would be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 Swansea Council invested £27m to build the Liberty Stadium too. At least they look after their football clubs in Wales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 3 hours ago, Baba Yaga said: I don't think the entire 25m is for the new stand, sounds like it's for other things too, also the funding is not completely from the Welsh gov? https://news.wrexham.gov.uk/councillors-consider-new-package-to-finance-key-parts-of-wrexham-gateway-project-including-new-kop/ To be fair if it means hosting international games in North Wales again then the gov could chuck a bit a few million at improving the stand and it wouldn't hurt. I think you nailed it there. The two American lads (Lowe/Mcillheny) have really pushed the Oldest International Stadium in the world thing a lot on the Wrexham show. The grant is almost certainly in view of some Welsh Internationals in more than one sport and gender. If we had Ashton Vale we may have been able to get similar grants too, particularly as there was talk of it at the time. Did City get any grants for the AG refurbishment? If not someone missed a trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen hump Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 3 hours ago, Oh Louie louie said: As regards to the racecourse hosting wales games, maybe one meaningless friendly a year, Swansea don't take much business of the millennium do they, Wales haven’t played at the millennium for years, play at cardiffs ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Londoner Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 Personally find Cardiff and Swansea being given free/very heavily subsidised stadiums more galling. Swansea were struggling in the bottom two tiers but get gifted a new stadium and within a few years are in the top flight. And Cardiff went from being heavily in debt in an old stadium to also getting to the premier league It’s also strange how they give they whole proud to be welsh thing but not proud enough to play in the welsh league 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 Already happened with Swansea, council bought the land with EU funds, built the stadium then leased it back to Swansea & the rugby team for a nominal rent, it might even be as low as £1 a year. The more you know about how much public money Wales gets comparatively to England the more angry you’ll get, it’s an absolute scandal. Remember playing veterans football once Caerleon way, the opposition said the pitches were free for them & they got public money for a new changing room, it’s a farce. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 4 hours ago, 1960maaan said: The population of Wrexham is about 130,000. Wrexham attendances around 10,000. There will be a lot of people struggling with Council Tax among other things that have no interest in Football, they would be rightly pissed off at funding the Football Club which is owned by a multi millionaire . Add in Reynolds made a reported £22m for Deadpool , I would be more than slightly miffed. If you were wondering, Rob McElhenney has a net worth of $50 million. Imagine if R*vers or us were given a massive input of Council money and not the other, that's how non football fans would feel. The Welsh government spends more than £2.5bn every year, it has substantial revenue raising powers. This is a drop in the ocean to it. But, as has been said, it will be calculated to bring long-term economic benefit to one of the more deprived area of Wales, not just to the club concerned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 Just now, Red-Robbo said: The Welsh government spends more than £2.5bn every year, it has substantial revenue raising powers. This is a drop in the ocean to it. But, as has been said, it will be calculated to bring long-term economic benefit to one of the more deprived area of Wales, not just to the club concerned. I take your point, but if I was a local seeing money going to a Club ran by multi Millionaires, and I had no interest in the Sport I think I would be questioning my Council tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 8 minutes ago, GrahamC said: Already happened with Swansea, council bought the land with EU funds, built the stadium then leased it back to Swansea & the rugby team for a nominal rent, it might even be as low as £1 a year. The more you know about how much public money Wales gets comparatively to England the more angry you’ll get, it’s an absolute scandal. Remember playing veterans football once Caerleon way, the opposition said the pitches were free for them & they got public money for a new changing room, it’s a farce. When you have a devolved country/government the drive to do things for your country/communities is strong, particularly as the English are paying. The issue is the English will mumble and grumble but won’t stand up and say ‘what about us’. Bristol City council maybe good maybe bad, it depends who you talk to, but their remit is to small and Bristol isn’t considered to be the under privileged dump (riot fest) it was when I was young, in part to SL! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 6 minutes ago, 1960maaan said: I take your point, but if I was a local seeing money going to a Club ran by multi Millionaires, and I had no interest in the Sport I think I would be questioning my Council tax. As I said on this or another thread, the money which is divied out to a myriad of causes across the UK that the average bloke knows nothing and cares not to know of is quite literally biliions and billions. Wrexham FC had the moxy to apply and make a case that the money would be spent on National (Welsh) good as well as local and made their case covertly on National TV. Oldest International Stadium in the World has been said over a dozen times, the message was sent loud and clear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 6 minutes ago, REDOXO said: When you have a devolved country/government the drive to do things for your country/communities is strong, particularly as the English are paying. The issue is the English will mumble and grumble but won’t stand up and say ‘what about us’. Bristol City council maybe good maybe bad, it depends who you talk to, but their remit is to small and Bristol isn’t considered to be the under privileged dump (riot fest) it was when I was young, in part to SL! That’s true, but some parts of Bristol are still incredibly deprived. For a person who lives in Hartcliffe & works 40 hours a week to have to pay tax on just £25k or so that then enables someone on £100k a year in Cardiff to have free prescriptions & capped tuition fees for their kid is simply disgusting. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, GrahamC said: That’s true, but some parts of Bristol are still incredibly deprived. For a person who lives in Hartcliffe & works 40 hours a week to have to pay tax on just £25k or so that then enables someone on £100k a year in Cardiff to have free prescriptions & capped tuition fees for their kid is simply disgusting. Fight harder. Your corner is your corner. I agree life is not fair and Bristol still has under privileged circumstances in some places but no one is offering anything without application and a fight. A properly devolved government for the region is what I would be advocating. It’s worked ok Scotland and Wales, NI gets what it wants regardless of who is killing whom! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 30 minutes ago, 1960maaan said: I take your point, but if I was a local seeing money going to a Club ran by multi Millionaires, and I had no interest in the Sport I think I would be questioning my Council tax. The bulk of their income, the Welsh government's I mean, not the millionaires!, is gained from retaining some of the income tax raised in Wales. They are allowed to do this because, under devolved powers, they have to pay for some things that are provided by national government in England. As has been pointed out, Wrexham aren't the only club to have benefitted from a grant from local, regional, national or even UK government. Furthermore, Wrexham's owners may be rich, but how much of their assets are liquid enough to pay for a £25m project, I don't know. This cash would have to be approved by the Senedd, which I very much doubt has a majority of Wrexham fans on it, so the cash would have to have been adjudged to benefit more than just the denizens of the Racecourse Ground. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfc01 Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 2 hours ago, 1960maaan said: I take your point, but if I was a local seeing money going to a Club ran by multi Millionaires, and I had no interest in the Sport I think I would be questioning my Council tax. Is it council money or Welsh Government ? I'd be surprised if it was council money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Chappers Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 It’s Welsh Government money, in the form of a loan, and seems a far better investment than throwing money at Party Donors in exchange for very little 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 20, 2023 Author Share Posted April 20, 2023 (edited) 17 hours ago, GrahamC said: That’s true, but some parts of Bristol are still incredibly deprived. For a person who lives in Hartcliffe & works 40 hours a week to have to pay tax on just £25k or so that then enables someone on £100k a year in Cardiff to have free prescriptions & capped tuition fees for their kid is simply disgusting. How did this Settlement come about exactly? Devolution I assume. I've only done quick Google searches but it seems to me that in England we get less spent per capita than Wales but also Scotland and Northern Ireland. I wonder too if part of it is that in Scotland and Wales they at devolved level elect more left wing leadership than UK as a whole . What would a standalone English Parliament yield I wonder, would it be more right wing fiscally in composition perhaps. Who might not be pro some of the items that you describe. Say e.g. tomorrow we had an English Parliament and the Tories were the main party in it, would they be pledging capped tuition fees or free prescriptions. On a more local note, Bristol as a whole does seem to be quite underserved. The arena debacle over many years, the useless deadlocked council, the Mayor and Metro Mayor...nothing has really worked or changed much in terms of extra Government investment etc it seems. Edited April 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 30 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: How did this Settlement come about exactly? Devolution I assume. All to do with the Barnett Formula. Barnett formula | Institute for Government 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 20, 2023 Author Share Posted April 20, 2023 20 minutes ago, Hxj said: All to do with the Barnett Formula. Barnett formula | Institute for Government Thanks. Will have a look later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottishRed Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 19 hours ago, GrahamC said: That’s true, but some parts of Bristol are still incredibly deprived. For a person who lives in Hartcliffe & works 40 hours a week to have to pay tax on just £25k or so that then enables someone on £100k a year in Cardiff to have free prescriptions & capped tuition fees for their kid is simply disgusting. That is devolution for you. It is exactly the same in my homeland. I can’t speak for Wales but in Scotland there are a lot of things eg prescription fees that are free yet down here the costs keep increasing. It is effectively ‘bribing’ the electorate which the SNP are masters of despite middle earners paying more tax than elsewhere in the UK. Recent events may result in a re-set however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorenzos Only Goal Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 Is it just me or does £25m seem steep for 5500 seats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 35 minutes ago, ScottishRed said: That is devolution for you. It is exactly the same in my homeland. I can’t speak for Wales but in Scotland there are a lot of things eg prescription fees that are free yet down here the costs keep increasing. It is effectively ‘bribing’ the electorate which the SNP are masters of despite middle earners paying more tax than elsewhere in the UK. Recent events may result in a re-set however. It isn’t, as has already been explained it is the Barnett formula or as it should be called in Wales “free money”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 20, 2023 Author Share Posted April 20, 2023 (edited) 39 minutes ago, GrahamC said: It isn’t, as has already been explained it is the Barnett formula or as it should be called in Wales “free money”. In order it goes, as per a quick search anyway- less to most. England Wales Scotland NI That said a quick search could be wrong and am about to read Barnett Formula link...doubtful a devolved Tory Government in an English only Parliament would be especially more generous. Edited April 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottishRed Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 1 hour ago, GrahamC said: It isn’t, as has already been explained it is the Barnett formula or as it should be called in Wales “free money”. How devolved governments spend the money they receive from the Barnett formula is their decision. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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