Kalas - Signed for Schalke04

[TammyAB]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, exactly that.

In Kalas’s case, if he’s on an alleged £25k p.w. he’s due £100k+ this month.  If he’s looking to take a wage cut to say £10k p.w., and signed on 1/7, then he would forego his severance.  If he signed today, he’d lose the last 10 days (pro-rata’d).

I didn't even know this was a thing, but looking back at our past free transfers was interesting to see Maenpaa signed on 1st Aug, after spending pre-season on trial with us. What a coincidence!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45033182

[Lord Northski]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, exactly that.

In Kalas’s case, if he’s on an alleged £25k p.w. he’s due £100k+ this month.  If he’s looking to take a wage cut to say £10k p.w., and signed on 1/7, then he would forego his severance.  If he signed today, he’d lose the last 10 days (pro-rata’d).

Has to be said Dave, we’re very late lucky to have you on this forum and as a contributor to the various podcasts. Thank you for all the time and effort you devote to our favourite subject. It’s really appreciated   

[Riaz]

43 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, exactly that.

In Kalas’s case, if he’s on an alleged £25k p.w. he’s due £100k+ this month.  If he’s looking to take a wage cut to say £10k p.w., and signed on 1/7, then he would forego his severance.  If he signed today, he’d lose the last 10 days (pro-rata’d).

So he's not actually being paid a extra month - he just works a month in hand.

[BetterRedthanBlue]

42 minutes ago, TammyAB said:

I didn't even know this was a thing, but looking back at our past free transfers was interesting to see Maenpaa signed on 1st Aug, after spending pre-season on trial with us. What a coincidence!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45033182

Niki Maenpaa what a signing he was!

 

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, Riaz said:

So he's not actually being paid a extra month - he just works a month in hand.

No, his contract ended on 30.06….he has already been paid for working until 30.06.

But he is then entitled to an extra month’s “pay” / severance, which I believe is paid weekly until the end of July.  It stops if he gets a new contract this month.

So nothing about being paid a month in hand at all.

[Colemanballs]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, his contract ended on 30.06….he has already been paid for working until 30.06.

But he is then entitled to an extra month’s “pay” / severance, which I believe is paid weekly until the end of July.  It stops if he gets a new contract this month.

So nothing about being paid a month in hand at all.

It makes me wonder why Jay Dasilva didn't wait until 1st August to sign for Coventry.

[Merrick's Marvels]

35 minutes ago, Colemanballs said:

It makes me wonder why Jay Dasilva didn't wait until 1st August to sign for Coventry.

Because he hasn't got expensive teeth or a flash car to pay for? Or isn't building an expensive, flash house from the ground up which will soon need furnishing with all the gaudy mod cons so beloved of overpaid footballers? 

Maybe. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, Riaz said:

So he's not actually being paid a extra month - he just works a month in hand.

Like any job. You get paid in arrears not advance.

[Riaz]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

No, his contract ended on 30.06….he has already been paid for working until 30.06.

But he is then entitled to an extra month’s “pay” / severance, which I believe is paid weekly until the end of July.  It stops if he gets a new contract this month.

So nothing about being paid a month in hand at all.

I trust what you are saying is true.

You would think, if he signed for another club on 1st july, he would not be paid this.

[Riaz]

7 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Like any job. You get paid in arrears not advance.

Yes

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

9 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Like any job. You get paid in arrears not advance.

Unless you're an assassin. Half up front now and the other half when the jobs done. 

[BritAbroad]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

No, his contract ended on 30.06….he has already been paid for working until 30.06.

But he is then entitled to an extra month’s “pay” / severance, which I believe is paid weekly until the end of July.  It stops if he gets a new contract this month.

So nothing about being paid a month in hand at all.

I would say that they should be at least training (or working) at the club to get that money.... but I suspect most managers wouldn't want players who are leaving to be hanging around in pre-season. Do we think this is the same reason we've heard nothing about Massengo signing?

[Alessandro]

1 hour ago, Colemanballs said:

It makes me wonder why Jay Dasilva didn't wait until 1st August to sign for Coventry.

Well you’re presuming he’s taken a pay cut? We don’t know what Jay was on here and what Coventry are paying him - if it was a pay cut though, the signing club may well incentivise signing earlier with a sign on fee. 

[Colemanballs]

2 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Well you’re presuming he’s taken a pay cut? We don’t know what Jay was on here and what Coventry are paying him - if it was a pay cut though, the signing club may well incentivise signing earlier with a sign on fee. 

Good point. I guess he could also decide to swallow the deficit to show that he really wants to be at Coventry.

[Unan]

1 hour ago, Colemanballs said:

It makes me wonder why Jay Dasilva didn't wait until 1st August to sign for Coventry.

Because they want him in for all of pre-season of course

[Kid in the Riot]

He's still local, I know that much.

[Ziderarmy]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

He's still local, I know that much.

Going to Cardiff then? They love one of our cast offs. 

[BCFCGav]

2 minutes ago, Pearsonistheman said:

Going to Cardiff then? They love one of our cast offs. 

Cardiff are financially a bit wobbly aren't they. If he went to them and we didn't match their wage offer I'd be pretty disappointed. 

We need an extra body who can play the two centre-half roles and he knows the team and city inside out. I'm still hopeful he signs.

[Cov 77]

4 minutes ago, BCFCGav said:

Cardiff are financially a bit wobbly aren't they. If he went to them and we didn't match their wage offer I'd be pretty disappointed. 

We need an extra body who can play the two centre-half roles and he knows the team and city inside out. I'm still hopeful he signs.

Is there a genuine chance that may happen ? It seems awfully drawn out tbh

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Colemanballs said:

It makes me wonder why Jay Dasilva didn't wait until 1st August to sign for Coventry.

I can only guess because he wanted to go straight into pre-season and get his feet under the table.  He might not have taken a pay-cut or much of one either (guesswork).

1 hour ago, Riaz said:

I trust what you are saying is true.

You would think, if he signed for another club on 1st july, he would not be paid this.

First sentence - I don’t just make it up, standard contracts are one month severance.  There is a maximum though, which is double the maximum for unfair dismissal (currently £188k)…Kalas not quite on those numbers!

Second sentence - I gave exactly that answer in the two scenarios I gave.  No, he wouldn’t get paid severance.

53 minutes ago, BritAbroad said:

I would say that they should be at least training (or working) at the club to get that money.... but I suspect most managers wouldn't want players who are leaving to be hanging around in pre-season. Do we think this is the same reason we've heard nothing about Massengo signing?

Why?  This isn’t working his notice….he’s ended his contract, he is no longer employed by the club.  It’s severance….not pay.  If he came in we’d have to pay him.  Hence why he’s staying fit privately.

You wouldn’t leave a job, get paid severance and expect to have to go to the office / factory every day would you?  It’s no different.

Ditto Massengo, although Han has always had his own personal trainer.

[BCFCGav]

47 minutes ago, Cov 77 said:

Is there a genuine chance that may happen ? It seems awfully drawn out tbh

I've not heard anything. Just hopeful. Was always very much under the impression he likes being in Bristol. Go on TK, sign it 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I do think that our offer is quite fair and if he were to accept it, and if his fitness has improved after the troubles of the laat two years he would be a great re-addition.

Sometimes it can be about luck and opportunities arising at certain times but had he gone up with Fulham in 2018 or got a move to a similar club thst summer, I certainly believe a fully fit in-form Kalas could have (prior to injuries) been comparable to a number of bottom third PL centre backs.

[Carey 6]

2 hours ago, BCFCGav said:

Cardiff are financially a bit wobbly aren't they. If he went to them and we didn't match their wage offer I'd be pretty disappointed. 

We need an extra body who can play the two centre-half roles and he knows the team and city inside out. I'm still hopeful he signs.

How hungry is he to play for us?

He’s almost missed the whole of pre season now & shopped around all summer for a new club. 

If he re-signs, I won’t be too disappointed because he is a good player, but I feel like if he comes back here it’s because we’re the final resort. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Carey 6

[RedEyez]

9 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

How hungry is he to play for us?

He’s almost missed the whole of pre season now & shopped around all summer for a new club. 

If he re-signs, I won’t be too disappointed because he is a good player, but I feel like if he comes back here it’s because we’re the final resort. 

Who cares. If he re signs and can prove his fitness it will be another very good centre back option without having to get the cheque book out again in terms of a fee . We all know he always gives 110% for the club when he plays so that’s not an issue for me.

Edited July 20, 2023 by RedEyez

[italian dave]

18 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

How hungry is he to play for us?

He’s almost missed the whole of pre season now & shopped around all summer for a new club. 

If he re-signs, I won’t be too disappointed because he is a good player, but I feel like if he comes back here it’s because we’re the final resort. 

I know what you mean….but then I think of Andi Weimann. Who did pretty much the same, and came back to score a hatful of goals. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Kalas has reportedly been keeping himself fit so that shouldn't be too big an issue- although match sharpness can take a bit of time of course.

[Merrick's Marvels]

7 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I know what you mean….but then I think of Andi Weimann. Who did pretty much the same, and came back to score a hatful of goals. 

Weimann signed a new contract in June and turned up for pre-season training.

[headhunter]

22 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

How hungry is he to play for us?

He’s almost missed the whole of pre season now & shopped around all summer for a new club. 

If he re-signs, I won’t be too disappointed because he is a good player, but I feel like if he comes back here it’s because we’re the final resort. 

I agree and in a normal workplace the optics of that aren't great.

Kalas is at a different stage of career compared to Taylor Moore who took a pay cut but wanted to prove himself with a career that had many years left in.

When Weimann took his pay-cut in the aftermath of his long term ACL injury he couldn't , in his wildest dreams, have expected to have the best season [21/22] of his career.  Is he going to join the long list of players who cost the club a fee to leave for nothing next summer.

Nahki has handled himself impeccably the whole time he has been here - sensible over his contract, didn't moan when he was left out of the team / played out of position, and been a good role model for the youngsters - how much of Tommy Conway's development is down to him? 

[italian dave]

1 minute ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Weimann signed a new contract in June and turned up for pre-season training.

OK…not exactly the same, but just trying to be glass half full, that’s all

Seriously, as I said, I have those concerns. But at the end of the day he’s a professional, and he’s a very good defender. I certainly wouldn’t be sorry if he stayed. 

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

How hungry is he to play for us?

He’s almost missed the whole of pre season now & shopped around all summer for a new club. 

If he re-signs, I won’t be too disappointed because he is a good player, but I feel like if he comes back here it’s because we’re the final resort. 

25 minutes ago, RedEyez said:

Who cares. If he re signs and can prove his fitness it will be another very good centre back option without having to get the cheque book out again in terms of a fee . We all know he always gives 110% for the club when he plays so that’s not an issue for me.

The two sides of the argument.  I liked both posts.  It’s why I am just gonna accept what happens, whichever it is.

[steveybadger]

4 hours ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

Unless you're an assassin. Half up front now and the other half when the jobs done. 

Can think of a few players over the years who’ve killed our chances….

[Merrick's Marvels]

12 minutes ago, italian dave said:

OK…not exactly the same, but just trying to be glass half full, that’s all

Seriously, as I said, I have those concerns. But at the end of the day he’s a professional, and he’s a very good defender. I certainly wouldn’t be sorry if he stayed. 

I'm completely with you, 100%.

Just resigned (not re-signed!!!!!!) myself to the fact that he'll find a better offer elsewhere. 

[Carey 6]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

The two sides of the argument.  I liked both posts.  It’s why I am just gonna accept what happens, whichever it is.

I’d also accept whatever happens, because like I said ultimately he is a good player. But I would’ve preferred if he committed to us day one & did pre season with all the other players. Can’t replicate the conditions in Austria again.

For what it’s worth, I’m not sure Pearson is the sort of man to leave a contract offer on the table this long is he? Has he mentioned anything to do with it recently? Must admit I’ve switched off more from City related stuff this summer than I have done previous years.

[WarksRobin]

6 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

Like any job. You get paid in arrears not advance.

I get paid in advance. Well, 50% arrears, 50% advance

[Jeez]

Understand the severance situation, but... if the club wanted to re-sign him & get him involved with pre-season they could just as easily roll the severance amount into a new contract either upfront or amortized so he's not out of pocket.

This suggests he's probably not coming back, has something in the pipeline elsewhere, or is either hoping/trying to & we are the fallback option.

In which case I hope the club pulls up the drawbridge & moves on with any other options we may have in the pipeline too - Kalas returning would be a last resort for all involved, which may well be what's happening. 

[BritAbroad]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Why?  This isn’t working his notice….he’s ended his contract, he is no longer employed by the club.  It’s severance….not pay.  If he came in we’d have to pay him.  Hence why he’s staying fit privately.

You wouldn’t leave a job, get paid severance and expect to have to go to the office / factory every day would you?  It’s no different.

Ditto Massengo, although Han has always had his own personal trainer.

I guess it's more for the fact that his contract has ended, he's decided not to renew, yet we still have to pay him severance. I could understand it if we had fired him or let him go, but I can't think of many jobs that would pay you another month after you decided to leave.

[Son of Fred]

7 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Because he hasn't got expensive teeth

Even I've got those these days

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, BritAbroad said:

I guess it's more for the fact that his contract has ended, he's decided not to renew, yet we still have to pay him severance. I could understand it if we had fired him or let him go, but I can't think of many jobs that would pay you another month after you decided to leave.

It’s a history thing.  Back in the day, before the summer transfer window hype we see today, players would go OOC and nobody would pick them until much later.  Clubs themselves had no income over the summer so wouldn’t commit to signing anyone straightaway either.  So players had no wage over the summer.  So they introduced the severance payout.

Even further back in time, players had a season wage and a reduced summer wage (almost like a retainer).

I’d argue at the top levels it seems unnecessary but there are probably many a player outside top ends this summer very grateful of a month’s severance.

[the1stknowle]

5 hours ago, RedEyez said:

Who cares. If he re signs and can prove his fitness it will be another very good centre back option without having to get the cheque book out again in terms of a fee . We all know he always gives 110% for the club when he plays so that’s not an issue for me.

Yeah exactly. Maximising your earnings is pretty normal and doesn’t reflect on anyone in their jobs. Unless you think your employer would be heartbroken to learn you would quit your job if another company offered to double your wages. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

12 hours ago, Colemanballs said:

Good point. I guess he could also decide to swallow the deficit to show that he really wants to be at Coventry.

I think it was more of the fact Coventry gave him a juicy 4 year contract. 

[BritAbroad]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It’s a history thing.  Back in the day, before the summer transfer window hype we see today, players would go OOC and nobody would pick them until much later.  Clubs themselves had no income over the summer so wouldn’t commit to signing anyone straightaway either.  So players had no wage over the summer.  So they introduced the severance payout.

Even further back in time, players had a season wage and a reduced summer wage (almost like a retainer).

I’d argue at the top levels it seems unnecessary but there are probably many a player outside top ends this summer very grateful of a month’s severance.

I didn't know that.  Now it makes sense. Thank you for enlightening me.

[GrahamC]

Might be relevant, it might not, but Harry Leeson wore 22 today, his old number.

[Silvio Dante]

36 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Might be relevant, it might not, but Harry Leeson wore 22 today, his old number.

I think Leeson plays right back but has a stutter so that may explain

[Jeez]

Bin him off & split his wages between Pring & Vyners new contracts. 

[Ian M]

To be fair, at this point I think I'd rather go with Araoye and Knight-Lebel and save the wage anyway.

[firstdivision]

So we hang on for TK (leave the contract on the table and play him in the final game despite the fact that he hadn’t committed to the club) but bin off HNM halfway through a season because he wouldn’t re-sign. This smacks of double standards to me. 
People will doubtless say the situation is different (‘I might re-sign’; ‘I won’t re-sign’), but I can’t see how in principle. (‘I can’t commit to you, Mr NP.’)

 

[GrahamC]

5 hours ago, Ian M said:

To be fair, at this point I think I'd rather go with Araoye and Knight-Lebel and save the wage anyway.

They do look good prospects but the other side of that argument is this, they have just looked good against Newport County & a second string Oxford side.

Atkinson is coming back from an ACL injury, so him being available for selection any time before late September looks to be a bonus.

Naismith was only fit for just over half of last season’s games & has already missed several in pre season.

Both Dickie & Vyner do have really good availability records but if either is missing we are switching players (Pring, McCrorie) to play them not in their best position.

In September we go to Leicester, Stoke come here then before the international break we visit Rotherham & Leeds in the same week. I really wouldn’t want (or expect) the two you have mentioned to be involved in games like that.

I am completely baffled by the Kalas situation, maybe he is banking the last big months’ money from us before making his next move, but if he was staying he could do that & still turn up to training so I do think he’s not coming back. Whatever way it goes if we get to the Preston game & he hasn’t committed surely we will move on.

 

[alexukhc]

1 hour ago, firstdivision said:

So we hang on for TK (leave the contract on the table and play him in the final game despite the fact that he hadn’t committed to the club) but bin off HNM halfway through a season because he wouldn’t re-sign. This smacks of double standards to me. 
People will doubtless say the situation is different (‘I might re-sign’; ‘I won’t re-sign’), but I can’t see how in principle. (‘I can’t commit to you, Mr NP.’)

 

I think we should just cut our losses

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

28 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

They do look good prospects but the other side of that argument is this, they have just looked good against Newport County & a second string Oxford side.

Atkinson is coming back from an ACL injury, so him being available for selection any time before late September looks to be a bonus.

Naismith was only fit for just over half of last season’s games & has already missed several in pre season.

Both Dickie & Vyner do have really good availability records but if either is missing we are switching players (Pring, McCrorie) to play them not in their best position.

In September we go to Leicester, Stoke come here then before the international break we visit Rotherham & Leeds in the same week. I really wouldn’t want (or expect) the two you have mentioned to be involved in games like that.

I am completely baffled by the Kalas situation, maybe he is banking the last big months’ money from us before making his next move, but if he was staying he could do that & still turn up to training so I do think he’s not coming back. Whatever way it goes if we get to the Preston game & he hasn’t committed surely we will move on.

 

I hear what you say and I wouldn't necessarily want to play them either but if required why not play them in those games. There are no easy games in the Championship and a test against these sides can tell you a lot about how far they've advanced.  Rotherham aside, they're less likely to receive an aerial bombardment from Leicester, Stoke and Leeds and would need to show a lot more than just strength in the air. 

[KegCity]

49 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

I think we should just cut our losses

Agree. There’s been a lot of talk about player commitment and “being on the bus” since Pearson’s arrival and Kalas clearly isn’t fully committed to the club. Completely understand why he wants to assess his options but he’s missing out on preseason because he’s looking for a better deal.

[roddy-d]

1 hour ago, KegCity said:

Agree. There’s been a lot of talk about player commitment and “being on the bus” since Pearson’s arrival and Kalas clearly isn’t fully committed to the club. Completely understand why he wants to assess his options but he’s missing out on preseason because he’s looking for a better deal.

Or he’s having more of a family break. Didn’t Baker do this?? I’m also surprised I haven’t seen any news for Kalas to go somewhere else with 2 weeks left. 
Also Bristol City haven’t come out & said he’s left the club. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by roddy-d

[bcfc01]

Kalas is obviously lying low due to the terms of his severance pay.

He won't sign for anyone until August unless a club can match his current wages - can't see that happening in the current climate unless a club are desperate. He isn't training with the club as he's out of contract and why should the club get him match fit on the off chance he may join another Championship club. He'll be training with a personal trainer to a schedule in line with a pre-season I would think.

He's well settled in Bristol with his parter being from Bristol and I understand he's building a new house here (read that on here, but possibly irrelevant). The club won't say one way or another if he's intending to sign or not as a lot can happen between now and August, but I'm hopeful that he will re-sign. Getting a player of his calibre will cost a fortune, as would a loan of that level, I can't see that happening.

Dickie, Kalas, Vyner, Atkinson, and Naismith would be a very good selection to have and with Araoye nearly there, we'd be well set up.

We'll know in a week or so anyway.

 

 

 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, GrahamC said:

They do look good prospects but the other side of that argument is this, they have just looked good against Newport County & a second string Oxford side.

Atkinson is coming back from an ACL injury, so him being available for selection any time before late September looks to be a bonus.

Naismith was only fit for just over half of last season’s games & has already missed several in pre season.

Both Dickie & Vyner do have really good availability records but if either is missing we are switching players (Pring, McCrorie) to play them not in their best position.

In September we go to Leicester, Stoke come here then before the international break we visit Rotherham & Leeds in the same week. I really wouldn’t want (or expect) the two you have mentioned to be involved in games like that.

I am completely baffled by the Kalas situation, maybe he is banking the last big months’ money from us before making his next move, but if he was staying he could do that & still turn up to training so I do think he’s not coming back. Whatever way it goes if we get to the Preston game & he hasn’t committed surely we will move on.

 

I think he’s gone.

I think the offer will have withdrawn by now.  Any attempts to sign him on the contract offered must’ve been on the proviso he signs and joins pre-season.

If we were to resign him, I’d be renegotiating terms, because he’s now behind everyone.

I’d rather we moved on.

As for CBs we have the obviously fit Vyner and Dickie, plus McCrorie and Roberts.  It matters not that Nige has said they will play FB.  If he needs them to play CB they will and can.  McCrorie has played a lot at CB don’t forget.  And then we have Naismith, expected to be back this week.

I think some are panicking a bit.

1 hour ago, roddy-d said:

Or he’s having more of a family break. Didn’t Baker do this?? I’m also surprised I haven’t seen any news for Kalas to go somewhere else with 2 weeks left. 
Also Bristol City haven’t come out & said he’s left the club. 

Baker re-signed on the 28th June, before his contract actually expired and was therefore in for a full pre-season.  He was playing bloody well too, such a shame.

[GrahamC]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I think he’s gone.

I think the offer will have withdrawn by now.  Any attempts to sign him on the contract offered must’ve been on the proviso he signs and joins pre-season.

If we were to resign him, I’d be renegotiating terms, because he’s now behind everyone.

I’d rather we moved on.

As for CBs we have the obviously fit Vyner and Dickie, plus McCrorie and Roberts.  It matters not that Nige has said they will play FB.  If he needs them to play CB they will and can.  McCrorie has played a lot at CB don’t forget.  And then we have Naismith, expected to be back this week.

I think some are panicking a bit.

Baker re-signed on the 28th June, before his contract actually expired and was therefore in for a full pre-season.  He was playing bloody well too, such a shame.

Me too re Kalas & as you point out, Baker & Weimann both renewed almost immediately & reported back for pre season. Totally different situation.

Also although I would want to know exactly how near Naismith is, Roberts’ excellent performance yesterday made me think if Pring had to fill in then firstly it would mean we had the preferred right/left footed combination in place again & also we are no weaker at LB, though ideally we would have Dickie, Vyner & Naismith all available to us right up until big Rob is back.

Not a chance in a million that we go to Leicester or Leeds with a first year pro in our back four though, no matter how promising they are.

[KegCity]

2 hours ago, roddy-d said:

Or he’s having more of a family break. Didn’t Baker do this?? I’m also surprised I haven’t seen any news for Kalas to go somewhere else with 2 weeks left. 
Also Bristol City haven’t come out & said he’s left the club. 

Had plenty of time to go on holiday before pre season started, it’s unprofessional.

[Mendip City]

58 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think he’s gone.

I think the offer will have withdrawn by now.  Any attempts to sign him on the contract offered must’ve been on the proviso he signs and joins pre-season.

If we were to resign him, I’d be renegotiating terms, because he’s now behind everyone.

I’d rather we moved on.

As for CBs we have the obviously fit Vyner and Dickie, plus McCrorie and Roberts.  It matters not that Nige has said they will play FB.  If he needs them to play CB they will and can.  McCrorie has played a lot at CB don’t forget.  And then we have Naismith, expected to be back this week.

I think some are panicking a bit.

Baker re-signed on the 28th June, before his contract actually expired and was therefore in for a full pre-season.  He was playing bloody well too, such a shame.

Agree I’m sure he’s gone. Good servant but also the injury record was becoming a concern (especially when, correctly, we’re carrying a small squad). 
 

my bigger concern is whether Vyner signs a new deal. 

[italian dave]

29 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

Agree I’m sure he’s gone. Good servant but also the injury record was becoming a concern (especially when, correctly, we’re carrying a small squad). 
 

my bigger concern is whether Vyner signs a new deal. 

If Kalas’s injury record is a concern then - in terms of proportion of time here spent out injured - neither Naismith nor Atkinson inspire much more confidence.

But agree 100% on Vyner. I don’t buy this ‘commit or your out’ line but it seems to be emerging as a bit of a theme at the club, and NP says things to suggest it’s his view. Which potentially leaves us with Vyner in that position quite soon. And I’m not sure he’ll rush to sign. I think he will - quite justifiably - want to wait and see and keep his options open.

And then, suddenly, an injury and a suspension and we’re back to looking short. 

[bcfc01]

3 minutes ago, italian dave said:

If Kalas’s injury record is a concern then - in terms of proportion of time here spent out injured - neither Naismith nor Atkinson inspire much more confidence.

But agree 100% on Vyner. I don’t buy this ‘commit or your out’ line but it seems to be emerging as a bit of a theme at the club, and NP says things to suggest it’s his view. Which potentially leaves us with Vyner in that position quite soon. And I’m not sure he’ll rush to sign. I think he will - quite justifiably - want to wait and see and keep his options open - just like Kalas.

And then, suddenly, an injury and a suspension and we’re back to looking short. 

Just a slight addition to your sentence.

[BritAbroad]

7 hours ago, firstdivision said:

So we hang on for TK (leave the contract on the table and play him in the final game despite the fact that he hadn’t committed to the club) but bin off HNM halfway through a season because he wouldn’t re-sign. This smacks of double standards to me. 
People will doubtless say the situation is different (‘I might re-sign’; ‘I won’t re-sign’), but I can’t see how in principle. (‘I can’t commit to you, Mr NP.’)

 

I think there were a lot of differences with the two cases - I believe Massengo would've been offered at least equal terms to stay, otherwise we wouldn't get compensation (at least that's how it used to be), and made it clear pretty early on that he wasn't going to re-sign. Kalas had those injury issues, so I don't know when he would have been offered a new contract, but it's clearly on lesser terms... plus we had minimal injury cover at CB, so we needed him. Also there's attitude. We don't know how Massengo was acting behind the scenes, nor Kalas. NP has hinted that it may be a situation like with Baker.

[WarksRobin]

If he has gone, it’s a bit odd that the club hasn’t said anything. I would have expected at least an acknowledgement of his service

[Mendip City]

32 minutes ago, italian dave said:

If Kalas’s injury record is a concern then - in terms of proportion of time here spent out injured - neither Naismith nor Atkinson inspire much more confidence.

But agree 100% on Vyner. I don’t buy this ‘commit or your out’ line but it seems to be emerging as a bit of a theme at the club, and NP says things to suggest it’s his view. Which potentially leaves us with Vyner in that position quite soon. And I’m not sure he’ll rush to sign. I think he will - quite justifiably - want to wait and see and keep his options open.

And then, suddenly, an injury and a suspension and we’re back to looking short. 

Difference is - Atkinson and Naismith are under contract but I agree with your point about their injury records. I guess adding Kalas to them just adds to the overall injury risk. 
 

I hope NP is reasonably fair with players running their contract down - it’s the player’s choice and not playing them is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Gary Johnson used to freeze players out completely - Basso and Orr being two examples. It didn’t help the club at all.

I guess we are thin at centre back but I don’t know how good the new signings are at playing there. We’ve also got Pring to cover. Hopefully Atkinson hits the ground running when he’s back. 

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

14 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

Difference is - Atkinson and Naismith are under contract but I agree with your point about their injury records. I guess adding Kalas to them just adds to the overall injury risk. 
 

I hope NP is reasonably fair with players running their contract down - it’s the player’s choice and not playing them is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Gary Johnson used to freeze players out completely - Basso and Orr being two examples. It didn’t help the club at all.

I guess we are thin at centre back but I don’t know how good the new signings are at playing there. We’ve also got Pring to cover. Hopefully Atkinson hits the ground running when he’s back. 

I don't know, I prefer the manager to be pragmatic if you're not getting promoted then dump em in the reserves and start planning for life without them.  If you're in with a shot of promotion or at risk of relegation then play the strongest side possible assuming the players are being professional and commit.  If they are being disruptive thrown them out on loan.

ETC...

[firstdivision]

45 minutes ago, BritAbroad said:

I think there were a lot of differences with the two cases - I believe Massengo would've been offered at least equal terms to stay, otherwise we wouldn't get compensation (at least that's how it used to be), and made it clear pretty early on that he wasn't going to re-sign. Kalas had those injury issues, so I don't know when he would have been offered a new contract, but it's clearly on lesser terms... plus we had minimal injury cover at CB, so we needed him. Also there's attitude. We don't know how Massengo was acting behind the scenes, nor Kalas. NP has hinted that it may be a situation like with Baker.

To be honest, BA, I can't quite work out the point you are trying to make. Also, there are a few unknowns and 'I don't knows' in there.

This is what I know: NP said he wants players who are committed. HNM didn't want to sign (so loaned out); Tomas Kalas hasn't signed (yet?) and has missed pre-season. Neither committed. One treated differently to the other.

Also, I would say there were definitely times last season when we had injuries in midfield and could have used HNM. We had to use OTC who was reasonably promising, but not a patch on HNM. We didn't have to play TK in the final game of the season, but we did (when he clearly hadn't agreed a new contract).

One other point re: HNM. We (and clubs) are perfectly happy to play players who will be leaving at the end of their contracts (eg Jay Dasilva) when it suits.

There are (possibly) some differences in the HNM and TK situations but it does look like double standards to me. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by firstdivision

[BritAbroad]

1 minute ago, firstdivision said:

To be honest, BA, I can't quite work out the point you are trying to make. Also, there are a few unknowns and 'I don't knows' in there.

This is what I know: NP said he wants players who are committed. HNM didn't want to sign (so loaned out); Tomas Kalas hasn't signed (yet?) and has missed pre-season. Neither committed. One treated differently to the other.

Also, I would say there were definitely times last season when we had injuries in midfield and could have used HNM. We had to use OTC who was reasonably promising, but not a patch on HNM. We didn't have to play TK in the final game of the season, but we did (when he clearly hadn't agreed a new contract).

One other point re: HNM. We (and clubs) are perfectly happy to play players who will be leaving at the end of their contracts (eg Jay Dasilva) when it suits.

There are (possibly) some differences in the HNM and TK situations but it does look like double standards to me. 

My main point was that we needed DaSilva and Kalas to cover injuries... we didn't need HNM to cover injuries. Not saying it's not double standards, just what was best for the club at the time.

[Mendip City]

6 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

I don't know, I prefer the manager to be pragmatic if you're not getting promoted then dump em in the reserves and start planning for life without them.  If you're in with a shot of promotion or at risk of relegation then play the strongest side possible assuming the players are being professional and commit.  If they are being disruptive thrown them out on loan.

ETC...

Yeah you’re probably right. In the case of Vyner, presumably we want to keep him and, presumably, his attitude is good. No need to change anything. I suppose sone players down tools but I reckon that’s the minority. 

[hertsexile]

Kalas as has been pointed was out injured for the vast majority of last season so wasn’t in contention. 
I am sure his attitude is up there with the rest of the team. He has been offered a contract on reduced terms, which Pearson has been open about. 
Kalas is a good CB and being a free agent he can look elsewhere. He has been a good asset at the club and the door remains open to him. 
Taking a step back to evaluate your options is a good thing hopefully Tomas will make right decision for himself and his family. I would happily see him playing in a City shirt next season but any decision has to be right for both parties 

[Andy082005]

1 hour ago, firstdivision said:

To be honest, BA, I can't quite work out the point you are trying to make. Also, there are a few unknowns and 'I don't knows' in there.

This is what I know: NP said he wants players who are committed. HNM didn't want to sign (so loaned out); Tomas Kalas hasn't signed (yet?) and has missed pre-season. Neither committed. One treated differently to the other.

Also, I would say there were definitely times last season when we had injuries in midfield and could have used HNM. We had to use OTC who was reasonably promising, but not a patch on HNM. We didn't have to play TK in the final game of the season, but we did (when he clearly hadn't agreed a new contract).

One other point re: HNM. We (and clubs) are perfectly happy to play players who will be leaving at the end of their contracts (eg Jay Dasilva) when it suits.

There are (possibly) some differences in the HNM and TK situations but it does look like double standards to me. 

There are two huge differences 

HNM wanted to leave. He didn’t want to stay. We could have offered him more money and he still would not have signed 

Kalas wanted (wants) to stay - but we offered him a contract which was considerably less to what he is on now.
 

This will possibly be his last  chance at a decent contract - I don’t think there is any one of us on this forum that would accept a wage that is considerably lower than what they are earning now 

Two completely different situations 

[cotswoldred2]

13 minutes ago, Andy082005 said:

There are two huge differences 

HNM wanted to leave. He didn’t want to stay. We could have offered him more money and he still would not have signed 

Kalas wanted (wants) to stay - but we offered him a contract which was considerably less to what he is on now.
 

This will possibly be his last  chance at a decent contract - I don’t think there is any one of us on this forum that would accept a wage that is considerably lower than what they are earning now 

Two completely different situations 

Well a lot of players do accept lower wages, especially when the club has  limited appearance stat.

[Andy082005]

13 minutes ago, cotswoldred2 said:

Well a lot of players do accept lower wages, especially when the club has  limited appearance stat.

They do yes. But at the same time - I wouldnt class someone as uncommitted simply because he doesn’t want to accept wages which could be anything between 20-50% less then what he is on now 

You can’t blame the guy if he got a contract somewhere which was willing to pay him an extra few thousand per week 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Andy082005

[firstdivision]

30 minutes ago, Andy082005 said:

There are two huge differences 

HNM wanted to leave. He didn’t want to stay. We could have offered him more money and he still would not have signed 

Kalas wanted (wants) to stay - but we offered him a contract which was considerably less to what he is on now.
 

This will possibly be his last  chance at a decent contract - I don’t think there is any one of us on this forum that would accept a wage that is considerably lower than what they are earning now 

Two completely different situations 

Yes, I see the difference as I pointed out in my original post (‘I might sign’; ‘I won’t sign’)

But my point is about our attitude to the two players. Why didn’t TK turn down the contract when it was offered and say ‘thanks but no thanks’? Because he’s hoping he might get better somewhere else and wants to keep his options open with us if he doesn’t.
He’s still not committed, which NP said he wanted players to be. TK wants the best option for him (same as HNM), not us. Fair enough. I have no quibble with either. But TK was offered his contract before the end of the season, didn’t sign, and yet we still played him. That’s the double standard: NP always emphasises commitment. Well, TK is/was hedging his commitment. 
Anyway, let’s move on. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by firstdivision