slartibartfast Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 According to the BBC table, we are 10th...........shouldn't we be 9th above Preston , alphabetically ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 1 minute ago, slartibartfast said: According to the BBC table, we are 10th...........shouldn't we be 9th above Preston , alphabetically ? No. It's away goals scored before alphabetical. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted August 6, 2023 Author Share Posted August 6, 2023 2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: No. It's away goals scored before alphabetical. Ok ,makes sense.Is this a newish development ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Oil Services Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said: No. It's away goals scored before alphabetical. But their away goal had an element of hand ball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open End Numb Legs Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 If it was me deciding it would be south before north. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 1 hour ago, slartibartfast said: Ok ,makes sense.Is this a newish development ? Not sure how new it is but if you read the EFL Handbook (Section 3, paragraph 9) then you see that league position is determined as follows: 1. Points; 2. Goal Difference; then 3. Goals Scored. Normally that's enough, but at the start of a season we often have to go deeper into paragraph 9. When the above are equal you look at: 4. League record between the two teams in question, considering in order: a) points gained against each other; b) goal difference in games between each other; then c) goals scored in games between each other. But, again, even this can't separate teams like us and Preston who drew 1-1 in the only game we've played so far. So, we now look at: 5. Number of wins; 6. Goals in away games; and 7. The provisions of paragraph 9.4 - which is a points system based on fouls, yellows, and reds. If that's still not enough at the end of a season then it's a playoff. So, basically right now it's Preston's away goal trumping out home goal, at step 6 above that gets them higher up. Technically the alphabet never comes into it, but I think the BBC and other media outlets use it as a tiebreaker in order to display the table properly. 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 9 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: Not sure how new it is but if you read the EFL Handbook (Section 3, paragraph 9) I'm just coming to the end of my current book on my e-reader and was wondering what to download next. Thanks for the tip. 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 3 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said: I'm just coming to the end of my current book on my e-reader and was wondering what to download next. Thanks for the tip. I hope you like legal thrillers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 21 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: I hope you like legal thrillers. Right up my Champs Elysee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 5 hours ago, ExiledAjax said: Not sure how new it is but if you read the EFL Handbook (Section 3, paragraph 9) then you see that league position is determined as follows: 1. Points; 2. Goal Difference; then 3. Goals Scored. Normally that's enough, but at the start of a season we often have to go deeper into paragraph 9. When the above are equal you look at: 4. League record between the two teams in question, considering in order: a) points gained against each other; b) goal difference in games between each other; then c) goals scored in games between each other. But, again, even this can't separate teams like us and Preston who drew 1-1 in the only game we've played so far. So, we now look at: 5. Number of wins; 6. Goals in away games; and 7. The provisions of paragraph 9.4 - which is a points system based on fouls, yellows, and reds. If that's still not enough at the end of a season then it's a playoff. So, basically right now it's Preston's away goal trumping out home goal, at step 6 above that gets them higher up. Technically the alphabet never comes into it, but I think the BBC and other media outlets use it as a tiebreaker in order to display the table properly. I know it’s not the rules, but for my own purposes I ignore the league table until 2 games have been played, usually a team has played home and away and there is the sense of a league forming…not that it means anything. The newspapers didn’t bother publishing a table until 4 games in back in the day. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 26 minutes ago, Davefevs said: I know it’s not the rules, but for my own purposes I ignore the league table until 2 games have been played, usually a team has played home and away and there is the sense of a league forming…not that it means anything. The newspapers didn’t bother publishing a table until 4 games in back in the day. In a similar way, and again for my own purposes, I avoid looking in the mirror until at least 2 hours of the day have passed. The pedantic answer is of course that the table is meaningless until May, but that attitude leads to a dull winter doesn't it! A question was asked, and the answer given. For my own purposes - I'm going to rank on points per game this season rather than raw points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RED4LIFE Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 6 hours ago, ExiledAjax said: I hope you like legal thrillers. Yep, that's one of John Grishams finest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjak Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 if it doesn't matter.........then why frigging mention it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted August 6, 2023 Author Share Posted August 6, 2023 28 minutes ago, maxjak said: if it doesn't matter.........then why frigging mention it ? Um, because I wanted to know the rules, and if you saw the title why open it, or even more why comment ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norn Iron Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 47 minutes ago, slartibartfast said: Um, because I wanted to know the rules, and if you saw the title why open it, or even more why comment ? Because a mortal man can embark on is to sell a book. Are you all sitty comftybold two-square on your botty? Then I'll begin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bar BS3 Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 16 hours ago, ExiledAjax said: Not sure how new it is but if you read the EFL Handbook (Section 3, paragraph 9) then you see that league position is determined as follows: 1. Points; 2. Goal Difference; then 3. Goals Scored. Normally that's enough, but at the start of a season we often have to go deeper into paragraph 9. When the above are equal you look at: 4. League record between the two teams in question, considering in order: a) points gained against each other; b) goal difference in games between each other; then c) goals scored in games between each other. But, again, even this can't separate teams like us and Preston who drew 1-1 in the only game we've played so far. So, we now look at: 5. Number of wins; 6. Goals in away games; and 7. The provisions of paragraph 9.4 - which is a points system based on fouls, yellows, and reds. If that's still not enough at the end of a season then it's a playoff. So, basically right now it's Preston's away goal trumping out home goal, at step 6 above that gets them higher up. Technically the alphabet never comes into it, but I think the BBC and other media outlets use it as a tiebreaker in order to display the table properly. Interesting to know! Is just my failing memory, or is it the case that when I was younger they didn't even produce league table until 3.? Games into the season.? I could be imagining that - but I'm sure they never used to bother... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 4 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said: Interesting to know! Is just my failing memory, or is it the case that when I was younger they didn't even produce league table until 3.? Games into the season.? I could be imagining that - but I'm sure they never used to bother... I think @Davefevs mentioned the same up above. In a pre-internet world (apologies for presuming your age) it absolutely makes sense not to waste column inches with meaningless tables in August. I found it interesting to see that alphabetical order isn't actually an official method of ranking teams. I suspect there's an unwritten rule that until game 46 has been played you use it in lieu of the playoff. I also think it must be the disciplinary ranking system of the enigmatic "provision 9.4" that currently places us above Swansea. I've not broken it down forensically but we got 0 yellow and red cards and committed 10 fouls, whereas Swansea got 1 yellow and committed 9 fouls. Points are actually handed out for the nature of the foul/offence rather than whether it's a caution, a yellow, or a red, but I assume we have fewer points than Swansea and so we are above them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 In fairness to Slarti i did wonder the same thing when i saw the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bar BS3 Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 10 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: I think @Davefevs mentioned the same up above. In a pre-internet world (apologies for presuming your age) it absolutely makes sense not to waste column inches with meaningless tables in August. I found it interesting to see that alphabetical order isn't actually an official method of ranking teams. I suspect there's an unwritten rule that until game 46 has been played you use it in lieu of the playoff. I also think it must be the disciplinary ranking system of the enigmatic "provision 9.4" that currently places us above Swansea. I've not broken it down forensically but we got 0 yellow and red cards and committed 10 fouls, whereas Swansea got 1 yellow and committed 9 fouls. Points are actually handed out for the nature of the foul/offence rather than whether it's a caution, a yellow, or a red, but I assume we have fewer points than Swansea and so we are above them. Yes that would make sense - it was probably a pre-internet thing. In reality, exact league positions don't matter until the end of games 46 & should anything be that tight between 2 meaningful placings - then the coverage & awareness of the deeper rules would well known before kick off. I was aware of it tracking back to games against each other, but didn't know that it then took disciplinary records into account. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antman Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 8 hours ago, Norn Iron said: Because a mortal man can embark on is to sell a book. Are you all sitty comftybold two-square on your botty? Then I'll begin a bit of Ogdens' Nut Gone Flake there Norn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted August 7, 2023 Author Share Posted August 7, 2023 9 hours ago, Norn Iron said: Because a mortal man can embark on is to sell a book. Are you all sitty comftybold two-square on your botty? Then I'll begin Once apollytito................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cotswoldred2 Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 On 06/08/2023 at 13:13, slartibartfast said: Ok ,makes sense.Is this a newish development ? No it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norn Iron Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 9 hours ago, Antman said: a bit of Ogdens' Nut Gone Flake there Norn? Hi Ant, courtesy of another thread as well where Slarti quoted Stanley! Couldn't resist this quote as i thought it rather apt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dolman Pragmatist Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 7 minutes ago, Norn Iron said: Hi Ant, courtesy of another thread as well where Slarti quoted Stanley! Couldn't resist this quote as i thought it rather apt! My son has the middle name Stanley in honour of Happiness Stan… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldlandReddies Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 On 06/08/2023 at 13:09, ExiledAjax said: No. It's away goals scored before alphabetical. They're taking the P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 10 hours ago, ExiledAjax said: I think @Davefevs mentioned the same up above. In a pre-internet world (apologies for presuming your age) it absolutely makes sense not to waste column inches with meaningless tables in August. I found it interesting to see that alphabetical order isn't actually an official method of ranking teams. I suspect there's an unwritten rule that until game 46 has been played you use it in lieu of the playoff. I also think it must be the disciplinary ranking system of the enigmatic "provision 9.4" that currently places us above Swansea. I've not broken it down forensically but we got 0 yellow and red cards and committed 10 fouls, whereas Swansea got 1 yellow and committed 9 fouls. Points are actually handed out for the nature of the foul/offence rather than whether it's a caution, a yellow, or a red, but I assume we have fewer points than Swansea and so we are above them. I was going to suggest that this was due to alphabetical reasons, but that would sort of bring us full circle . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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