Wage budget

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So, what you’re saying is any signings made now wouldn’t fit the unknown style of the unknown manager, which is bound to be different from the current manager.  If that is the case then it shows our owner has learned eff all in 20 years.  The profile of players scouted / analysed / recruited are supposed to follow a longer term strategy that the current incumbent of the manager’s seat.

We, mainly led by @ExiledAjax tried to get the club to produce something akin to a Plymouth and Norwich, but that was too transparent!!!

Just imagine if fans were actually told the reasons why some decisions were made rather than just what they were. Imagine if there was respect rather than "they won't understand anyway" or "commercial sensitivity". A world where we got more than just 100 words of guff Annual Accounts - Bristol City FC (bcfc.co.uk). 

We might have slightly fewer threads about uncle Steve's tight pockets.

PS. I will try again this year to see if we can get something more interesting published this time.

Edited August 30, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Red-Robbo]

I can't see how our club is allegedly in the Top 10 for wages in this division.

Surely Wells, James and King cannot be costing us SO much it means no one else, no matter how inexperienced at this level, can be brought in? We know Weimann's wage was trimmed, others salary will have risen somewhat as players become established first-team regulars, but we're hardly fielding a team of galacticos. 

Do the wage considerations include Pearson's doubtless not inconsiderable salary? Are they taking into account the seemingly endless number of Bristol Sport employees??

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, mozo said:

I think it's pretty clear now that Scott was up for sale so that we could cash in on an asset and bank the fee.

We can ponder what banking the fee means though...

Okay were I a major optimist and I'm not, an ideal theory would be this.

One more season of toughing out, use some of the fee to extend Vyner, Bell, Conway in a similar manner to Pring.

Then with all big past losses gone NP new 2-3 year deal and spend close to the max for a 2-3 year tilt at promotion from summer 2024 onwards. Boom and bust sure but a big tilt all the same..

The financial headroom would be enormous. 

Then I woke up.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Greedo]

SL’s birthday is today, the club posted to Twitter for it last year. 

No such post this year. 
 

Not looking to invite a backlash?

https://x.com/bristolcity/status/1564528782916173831?s=46&t=64HT6VKYLEUlAErwugio4Q

[Rob k]

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I can't see how our club is allegedly in the Top 10 for wages in this division.

Surely Wells, James and King cannot be costing us SO much it means no one else, no matter how inexperienced at this level, can be brought in? We know Weimann's wage was trimmed, others salary will have risen somewhat as players become established first-team regulars, but we're hardly fielding a team of galacticos. 

Do the wage considerations include Pearson's doubtless not inconsiderable salary? Are they taking into account the seemingly endless number of Bristol Sport employees??

I think, some of our players are still on more than some think 

[Bristol Rob]

I wonder what our wages to turnover is now.

We had some bonkers figures in the past where it was something like 120% 

[B-Rizzle]

My view is:

The club HAVE invested (certainly prior to Scott’s sale), using the Semenyo money. But perhaps this hasn’t been to the degree that some hoped/ expected, particularly since some big earners have left and we’ve pocketed £25m. I, along with others, feel we’re a little short in numbers and there could be issues if there are significant injuries to our GK, a centre half or another striker (we’re already struggling having TC out).

It’s interesting to hear the club say we’re right on the limit of our wage budget complying with FFP. Haven’t quite got my head around how this can be.

Quite a few people have commented on rumours that SL isn’t sold on NP and for what’s it’s worth, I’m not 100% sold either. Currently looks unlikely that NP will be offered a new deal.

Are the club (SL) holding back a little either with a view that they’ll invest more heavily with a new coach in the future, or, is SL preparing the club to be in a good position selling wise. E.g. get the wage bill under control, invest a bit in youth and bank most of the revenue from player sales so that the club are in a good FFP position so that future investors have more FFP wiggle room to ‘go for it’ a bit more when they first come in?

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

I wonder what our wages to turnover is now.

We had some bonkers figures in the past where it was something like 120% 

Group or club? The two do differ, the BCFC Holdings is about £5-6m higher than the club in isolation.

The Championship is a mad mad League financially, much of the League are or have been at 100 pct of turnover to wages or above this.

I reckon around 80 pct of turnover if we look at the consolidated ie Bristol City Holdings.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[97Red]

I can absolutely 100% see Lansdown not extending NPs contract at end of the season. He will use our inevitable mid table finish as the reasoning for this. In reality, NP has saved us around 25 million on the wages over the past 3 seasons and brought in around 35 million in transfer fees. He's had barely a fraction of this to spend. To say his hands have been tied, I think is honestly an understatement.

NP is not perfect don't get me wrong. But to bring in the best part of £60 million, and not be allowed to reinvest I think is a complete joke. All this whilst still keeping us competitive within this division and bringing through the academy! Lansdown needs to seriously consider his position. He's not backing the manager in the slightest.

[Curr Avon]

The 2012/13 season should serve as a warning.

McInnes had his budget slashed by 50% and recruited poor players.

Result, he was fired in January 2013, O'Driscoll was quickly installed as manager, followed by relegation with a record 27 League defeats.

And it didn't end there! 

Remember the Five Pillars?

Edited August 30, 2023 by Curr Avon

[Red-Robbo]

9 minutes ago, Rob k said:

I think, some of our players are still on more than some think 

They must be!

[Rob k]

1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said:

They must be!

Naismith i keep seeing banded about as on 12k a week, he was a free transfer and had options, he will be on more than that in my opinion

[GrahamC]

7 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I can't see how our club is allegedly in the Top 10 for wages in this division.

Surely Wells, James and King cannot be costing us SO much it means no one else, no matter how inexperienced at this level, can be brought in? We know Weimann's wage was trimmed, others salary will have risen somewhat as players become established first-team regulars, but we're hardly fielding a team of galacticos. 

Do the wage considerations include Pearson's doubtless not inconsiderable salary? Are they taking into account the seemingly endless number of Bristol Sport employees??

I think there is a level of confusion about Andy King’s likely wages.

Probably not helped by his illustrious career, which with the greatest of respect to him, was fairly long in the past when he joined us.

When we signed him he was without a club, trained a week or two with us pre season to even earn a contract & in the previous season had only made one sub appearance in the Belgian league.

I would be surprised therefore if he’s on any more than circa £6k, he’s effectively in a dual role, a coach & a back up player if we have injuries or suspensions.

James is probably on at least double that, Wells we know took a sizeable pay cut in exchange for 2 extra years but again similar ballpark figure.

I reckon we are all looking for something that’s no longer there, a Kalas type wage earner.

 

[mozo]

3 minutes ago, 97Red said:

I can absolutely 100% see Lansdown not extending NPs contract at end of the season. He will use our inevitable mid table finish as the reasoning for this. In reality, NP has saved us around 25 million on the wages over the past 3 seasons and brought in around 35 million in transfer fees. He's had barely a fraction of this to spend. To say his hands have been tied, I think is honestly an understatement.

NP is not perfect don't get me wrong. But to bring in the best part of £60 million, and not be allowed to reinvest I think is a complete joke. All this whilst still keeping us competitive within this division and bringing through the academy! Lansdown needs to seriously consider his position. He's not backing the manager in the slightest.

Or... if everything you've detailed was part fo the plan, Lansdown should be able now to acknowledge as much and to publicly give Pearson his share of the credit for an epic overhaul of the accounts.

[Mr Popodopolous]

A tale of four cities. 

What must Birmingham and Stoke be paying atm, I mean Kinnell.

Us firstly and this cap.

Birmingham City

As of 2021-22 had a wage bill of around £32m. Yes its and ours and it may have fallen a bit with departures but look at the players they are signing. Will it have fallen as much or even at all.

Cardiff City

As of 2021-22 they had a wage bill iirc of £28-29m? Okay number of high earners left but they also added a lot last season albeit cheap. Average wage £5-10k maybe?

They've added and let go some more this summer but has their wage bill really fallen so far.

Stoke City

Their wage bill fell from £50m to £37m in 2021-22. Which seems suspiciously fast to me but then they gamed the Covid system but that's another thread. Anyway adding players like Wilmot, Vrancic , Baker, Surridge who admittedly came and went plus many PL loanees and Sawyers WBA and Maja half a season that can cost.

Then numerous PL loanees last year, ins and outs sure but I imagine their wage bill strongly exceeds £25m atm!

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Merrick's Marvels]

24 minutes ago, B-Rizzle said:

It’s interesting to hear the club say we’re right on the limit of our wage budget complying with FFP. 

The club haven't said this.

They've said we're on the limit of our wage budget.

But is that (1) a limit the club have set themselves below the FFP ceiling, or (2) a limit that is the maximum allowed by FFP and if we exceeded it, we'd incur FFP penalties (points deduction)?

There's a difference and it would be informative to know which it is (a lot on here are thinking it's the former).

The fact the club don't want to say and would prefer if we didn't know, is instructive. But hardly comes as a surprise.

What I find annoying is that not a single journalist, at one of the weekly pressers, has the wit to at least ask the question.

I'm sure Pearson knows the answer but suspect he'd say instead - "finances are not my area, you're asking the wrong person".

Which is why the silence from both the owner and the CEO at the start of a new season is disappointing and, also, instructive.

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I can't see how our club is allegedly in the Top 10 for wages in this division.

Surely Wells, James and King cannot be costing us SO much it means no one else, no matter how inexperienced at this level, can be brought in? We know Weimann's wage was trimmed, others salary will have risen somewhat as players become established first-team regulars, but we're hardly fielding a team of galacticos. 

Do the wage considerations include Pearson's doubtless not inconsiderable salary? Are they taking into account the seemingly endless number of Bristol Sport employees??

We aren’t.

We might’ve been in the spend-thrift days.

We aren’t anymore.

We now based on my guesstimates, bottom 8!  That’s how much has been cut.

What has been misconstrued is RG saying in last years FF that we can compete with top10 for the right players,  e.g. OOC / £free where we can push the boundaries a bit in wages because the overall cost is just wages (and other fees).  He didn’t say we are paying all players top10 wages.

There will always be some disparity in player wages, sometimes just down to the timing of the deal, e.g. Kalas pre-covid versus Atkinson post-Covid.

8 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

The 2012/13 season should serve as a warning.

McInnes had his budget slashed by 50% and recruited poor players.

Result, he was fired in January 2013, O'Driscoll was quickly installed as manager, followed by relegation with a record 27 League defeats.

And it didn't end there! 

Remember the Five Pillars?

Made sense actually.  

6 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Naismith i keep seeing banded about as on 12k a week, he was a free transfer and had options, he will be on more than that in my opinion

But unlikely to be on more than £15k p.w.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Could it be then that as part of our new policy we won't pay wages certainly above and perhaps of £20k per week.

That's fine but it can come with a price. ie Vastly narrowing the pool if players we can hope to attract. There is not yet any kind of wage cap nor has the caution for a year or 2 post Covid continued.

Is it a collective cap, an individual upper limit or some combination of the two that we are applying.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[BUTOR]

23 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

The 2012/13 season should serve as a warning.

McInnes had his budget slashed by 50% and recruited poor players.

Result, he was fired in January 2013, O'Driscoll was quickly installed as manager, followed by relegation with a record 27 League defeats.

And it didn't end there! 

Remember the Five Pillars?

In fairness, the implementation of the five pillars are the reason we didn’t get relegated during the latest mess. 
 

*some of the five pillars I should say.

Edited August 30, 2023 by BUTOR

[Red-Robbo]

21 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

I think there is a level of confusion about Andy King’s likely wages.

Probably not helped by his illustrious career, which with the greatest of respect to him, was fairly long in the past when he joined us.

When we signed him he was without a club, trained a week or two with us pre season to even earn a contract & in the previous season had only made one sub appearance in the Belgian league.

I would be surprised therefore if he’s on any more than circa £6k, he’s effectively in a dual role, a coach & a back up player if we have injuries or suspensions.

James is probably on at least double that, Wells we know took a sizeable pay cut in exchange for 2 extra years but again similar ballpark figure.

I reckon we are all looking for something that’s no longer there, a Kalas type wage earner.

 

So is it your view, Gray, that we're not among the top wage-payers in this division?  That's my view, but we've heard that line trotted out in the media. 

[97Red]

14 minutes ago, mozo said:

Or... if everything you've detailed was part fo the plan, Lansdown should be able now to acknowledge as much and to publicly give Pearson his share of the credit for an epic overhaul of the accounts.

The irony of our owner doing that. Bearing in mind this is someone who has made his fortune in the investments and financial industry. The proof is in the pudding. Our accounts don't lie. Major losses during Ashton's and Johnson's Tenure with a sky high wage budget. Our net costs have dropped significantly since then, plus increased revenue through the sales of Scott/Semenyo. With regards to our forthcoming accounts, Fevs and Mr P have run the numbers for them. They'll be pretty much in the ballpark I expect with their projections. 

He'll never come out and say 'Thanks Nige for digging us out a massive hole, oh by the way, which I got us into in the first place by having my arms pulled by LJ and MA'. But, it doesn't take a genius mathematician to see that's effectively what is going on/has gone on. 

[Red-Robbo]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

What has been misconstrued is RG saying in last years FF that we can compete with top10 for the right players,  e.g. OOC / £free where we can push the boundaries a bit in wages because the overall cost is just wages (and other fees).  He didn’t say we are paying all players top10 wages.

 

I think we knew as matters stand, we couldn't compete with PP recipients, but I'm concerned about Pearson saying he can't get more in because he's at the limit of what he can spend on wages when, by your estimate, we're bottom third of the Championship, for overall wages.

Sort of suggests the club's prepared to settle for a bottom-third finish, which fans, and Pearson, certainly won't be happy with. 

[Kid in the Riot]

33 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

The 2012/13 season should serve as a warning.

McInnes had his budget slashed by 50% and recruited poor players.

I seem to recall that the publication of our annual accounts after McInnes left showed that the budget hadn't been slashed anywhere near by 50%. It reduced, but not that significantly. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

You could certainly argue that a lot of things point towards Lansdown and Pearson agreeing this will be his final year - he had a job to do for 3 years: stop the freefall towards L1, cut costs, stabilise, leave the club in good shape for someone else to take forward. Time's up.  

So what we need now is a manager with a Dilly Ding Dilly Dong catchphrase. 

We need to go Johnny Foreigner, yes! At last, someone catches on (to what I have been pointing out, occasionally, on here, for many a year now). Steve needs to widen his search for his next head coach, people all over the planet manage and coach football  (who knew) and many of them (who knew) are better at it than our brave English Nigels and Lees/blokes (bless 'em). There's even studies and stats to back this up (feast yer eyes, Davefevs and that Ajax lad). Fact is, English blokes aren't that good and you don't need to "know the league." 

Look how international the Championship is now, then cast and eye over Bristol City: It’s like Brexit's last stand. Even Burnley have gone abroad.

[exAtyeoMax]

1 hour ago, slartibartfast said:

Make that three................any advance ?

I could move to Downend…?

[Fuber]

2 hours ago, brad blit said:

I answered a similar question in another thread recently and said this -

"In terms of answering this ‘theoretical’ question in the most basic manner, I think the best player to sell to free up wages would be Wells. Not scored a goal in open play for over 20 games, one of our biggest earners and one of older players. If I was playing Champ Manager, I’d sell him and use his wages (plus revenue from Scott sale) to buy 1 strong quick striker to lead the line (Like Afobe, Akpom) and another young specialised centre back"

Except this isnt CM.

And Wells is at an age where he can easily see out his remaining contract and not wish to move and would require parties to be interested in him in the first instance.

Being blunt, we're in by far a healthy enough position with FFP, in combination with wage reductions in the past 8 months, to allow NP to bring in two players such as those suggested.

We'd take the hit this season, but then have James, King, Williams, and Weimann OOC to rebalance the books, by which point you would hope some academy players such as Yeboah and Araoye or OTC have been blooded fully, or we sign younger players on free to offset (such as was done with Sykes, Naismith).

SL has stupidly got it in his head we can pull a Luton - issue being you need momentum (such as culture AND investment) to pull it off.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Fuber

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Except this isnt CM.

And Wells is at an age where he can easily see out his remaining contract and not wish to move and would require parties to be interested in him in the first instance.

Being blunt, we're in by far a healthy enough position with FFP, in combination with wage reductions in the past 8 months, to allow NP to bring in two players such as those suggested.

We'd take the hit this season, but then have James, King, Williams, and Weimann OOC to rebalance the books, by which point you would hope some academy players such as Yeboah and Araoye or OTC have been blooded fully, or we sign younger players on free to offset (such as was done with Sykes, Naismith).

SL has stupidly got it in his head we can pull a Luton - issue being you need momentum (such as culture AND investment) to pull it off.

Luton also had quite a bit more depth and while I don't mean quality depth but enough that a few injuries may not derail so even that comparison by SL is sketchy.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[exAtyeoMax]

and I was so optimistic before the start of the season… 

 

[Rob k]

44 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

But unlikely to be on more than £15k p.w.

Plus a hefty signing on fee I’d imagine (of which I’ve no idea what pot that comes out of) 

[Silvio Dante]

The irony of someone bringing up the “five pillars” is that they weren’t inherently a bad thing - and Nige has delivered on them more than any other manager since their inception (on the ones he can impact). IIRC the pillars were:

- Investment in the academy and production of home grown players Big tick in the box for Nige for facilitating the pathway 

- Community Engagement Not necessarily NPs remit but club do well here - think of the donation of food etc

- Improved stadium facilities Not in NPs control - achieved

- Signing players under 24 primarily achieved

- Operating sensibly financially As the figures prove, NP has achieved this absolutely 

So, he’s done everything that the only coherent strategy SL has espoused has demanded. What more can he do and what more can SL want?

 

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I seem to recall that the publication of our annual accounts after McInnes left showed that the budget hadn't been slashed anywhere near by 50%. It reduced, but not that significantly. 

Correct.  Think we just had a load of crap player being paid too much!

8 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

and I was so optimistic before the start of the season… 

 

So was I.

I’ve gone from - surely Nige was bluffing about maxing out the wage budget

To - SL is setting Nige up to fail and it’s gonna be a long season

I think we will know much more by the next international break (not this one).  Hoping we will know more about:

Conway

McCrorie

Atkinson

Weimann

and even Benarous

If we have line of sight on their return (even if it’s bad news) we can ready our expectations.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Plus a hefty signing on fee I’d imagine (of which I’ve no idea what pot that comes out of) 

Firstly it will be paid as wages / PAYE and likely to be spread over the term of his contract.

I don’t know how hefty signing on fees are / were last summer following covid.  Not as hefty as before covid though.

I don’t think we are talking about alleged signing on fee Tomlin got to artificially make his basic fall into line with the rest of the squad.  And then he came in and told the rest of the players what he got anyway!

[nebristolred]

1 hour ago, Wade Wilson said:

Here’s what I don’t get, and maybe it’s the Football Manager player in me, but can’t we just allocate some of the Scott money to the wage budget? Like we just got 25 million and we’re not gonna spend any of that when we desperately need to because, what, we’ve maxed out some arbitrarily low wage budget? It’s insane.

I'm pretty sure that we theoretically could, but obviously that's not ideal practice and it's the exact sort of behaviour that got us into a mess previously. You chuck that at the wage budget and but then in 2 or 3 years time when you still have that high wage bill but you haven't made another £25m in sales you're then ****ed.

It's certainly an interesting situation - SL has never really been afraid to spend money before so there must be a reason behind it. I doubt he's falling on hard times, though the losses are undoubtedly adding up.

Perhaps a takeover or other investment is close, and potential buyers want to see some sort of financial stability/security before taking the leap? I'm struggling to think of any other scenario to be honest. With a lot of clubs tightening their budgets and with us making a fair bit in fees, you'd think (from my entirely uneducated perspective that is) that this would be a tactically ideal time to push the boat out a bit. I'm really intrigued by this, it's pretty perplexing. As much as many criticise SL, it's pretty rate for him to reign it in like this.

Overall, I think this once again reinforces that Nige is doing a pretty damn good job given what he has had to work with financially.

Edited August 30, 2023 by nebristolred

[Sheltons Army]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Correct.  Think we just had a load of crap player being paid too much!

So was I.

I’ve gone from - surely Nige was bluffing about maxing out the wage budget

To - SL is setting Nige up to fail and it’s gonna be a long season

I think we will know much more by the next international break (not this one).  Hoping we will know more about:

Conway

McCrorie

Atkinson

Weimann

and even Benarous

If we have line of sight on their return (even if it’s bad news) we can ready our expectations.

Never been SLs biggest fan but his recent public speaks have really p’d me off Dave

 

If he wants to come out and say ,
 

‘I’m not prepared to cover the same losses so our budget has changed , I do understand that may mean fans have to accept we are looking still to build, under Nigel ,  but our main aim at the moment is to stabilise in this division with the changes, anything above that is a bonus’

 

I could live with that 

 

Instead we get waffle about promotion and top 6 

If Lansdown gets rid of NP , he and the bed wetters,  may get the club , and division they deserve

Edited August 30, 2023 by Sheltons Army

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

I doubt he's falling on hard times, though the losses are undoubtedly adding up.

SL The Magpie - has a new shiny golf course to invest in!

[Merrick's Marvels]

36 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

We need to go Johnny Foreigner, yes! At last, someone catches on (to what I have been pointing out, occasionally, on here, for many a year now). Steve needs to widen his search for his next head coach, people all over the planet manage and coach football  (who knew) and many of them (who knew) are better at it than our brave English Nigels and Lees/blokes (bless 'em). There's even studies and stats to back this up (feast yer eyes, Davefevs and that Ajax lad). Fact is, English blokes aren't that good and you don't need to "know the league." 

Look how international the Championship is now, then cast and eye over Bristol City: It’s like Brexit's last stand. Even Burnley have gone abroad.

Abroad, you say? How about Guernsey?

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

SL The Magpie - has a new shiny golf course to invest in!

Apparently Jon has asked if he can help with the design and get the windmills , the houses with holes through the middle and curly ramps made up 

[Merrick's Marvels]

47 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I seem to recall that the publication of our annual accounts after McInnes left showed that the budget hadn't been slashed anywhere near by 50%. It reduced, but not that significantly. 

Christ, how much were we paying Richard Foster!!!

Answer - too much, whatever it was. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

16 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

 

So, he’s done everything that the only coherent strategy SL has espoused has demanded. What more can he do and what more can SL want?

 

A few lively home games, with shots on goal, things to make the crowd "ooo" and "ahhh" occasionally, and cheers at the final whistle, and smiles all round. He needs to do something to cheer/stir the bleedin place up

[B-Rizzle]

13 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

The irony of someone bringing up the “five pillars” is that they weren’t inherently a bad thing - and Nige has delivered on them more than any other manager since their inception (on the ones he can impact). IIRC the pillars were:

- Investment in the academy and production of home grown players Big tick in the box for Nige for facilitating the pathway 

- Community Engagement Not necessarily NPs remit but club do well here - think of the donation of food etc

- Improved stadium facilities Not in NPs control - achieved

- Signing players under 24 primarily achieved

- Operating sensibly financially As the figures prove, NP has achieved this absolutely 

So, he’s done everything that the only coherent strategy SL has espoused has demanded. What more can he do and what more can SL want?

 

I agree with you but also think your post sums up entirely what the issue is…

What more could Pearson do? Answer: coach a successful football team. Make us better than the sum of our parts. Get us winning more games than losing and get us climbing the league? Sound like a big ask, it is but that’s literally the job of a football manager/ head coach.

All those things you list are things the club have achieve that aren’t primarily NPs role. He hasn’t lowered the wage bill, improved the academy pathway and singed young players. He’s worked in a wider team that have achieved those things. Credit to him that he’s been willing to do that and certainly credit to him in being bold with playing young players but I don’t buy into giving him credit for financial matters - THAT IS NOT HIS JOB.

And all this is precisely why I’m not 100% sold on him as we’re pretty bang average and have been the entire time under his tenure. I think SL also feels this and that’s why I don’t think we’ll see him here loads longer.

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

SL The Magpie - has a new shiny golf course to invest in!

The funny thing is his Guernsey ventures could be mutually beneficial to club and the venture. Financially anyway.

They could sponsor at fair rates or partner with us. Their profile is raised on the mainland, we get a bit more cash into the club legitimately. Not talking crazy out of whack deals that will come back to bite us obviously.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Sheltons Army]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The funny thing is his Guernsey ventures could be mutually beneficial to club and the venture. Financially anyway.

They could sponsor at fair rates or partner with us. Their profile is raised on the mainland, we get a bit more cash into the club legitimately. Not talking crazy out of whack deals that will come back to bite us obviously.

He sounded far more enthusiastic about his golf course than City in that Guernsey interview

I don’t  think it’s about money Mr P , more about interest , with money / budget reflecting 

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Abroad, you say? How about Guernsey?

Announce Tony Vance

9 minutes ago, B-Rizzle said:

I agree with you but also think your post sums up entirely what the issue is…

What more could Pearson do? Answer: coach a successful football team. Make us better than the sum of our parts. Get us winning more games than losing and get us climbing the league? Sound like a big ask, it is but that’s literally the job of a football manager/ head coach.

All those things you list are things the club have achieve that aren’t primarily NPs role. He hasn’t lowered the wage bill, improved the academy pathway and singed young players. He’s worked in a wider team that have achieved those things. Credit to him that he’s been willing to do that and certainly credit to him in being bold with playing young players but I don’t buy into giving him credit for financial matters - THAT IS NOT HIS JOB.

And all this is precisely why I’m not 100% sold on him as we’re pretty bang average and have been the entire time under his tenure. I think SL also feels this and that’s why I don’t think we’ll see him here loads longer.

But his ability to do HIS JOB is impacted by all those things.  Just look at the players he’s had to get rid of.

Judging by the criticism on here of most of the players, isn’t he achieving more than the sum of the parts?

I’d say that with such a shallow squad over the last two seasons to have avoided a relegation scrap is at least achieving the objective, if not bettering what could’ve been expected.

This season was the first time to try to kick forward.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

He sounded far more enthusiastic about his golf course than City in that Guernsey interview

I don’t  think it’s about money Mr P , more about interest , with money / budget reflecting 

Yeah that's a shame Sheltons. Still would be mutually beneficial marketing wise probably.

His right of course if he no longer wishes to stick the annual cash losses in or reduce them but a shame for us fans all the same. 

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

So is it your view, Gray, that we're not among the top wage-payers in this division?  That's my view, but we've heard that line trotted out in the media. 

No longer, no.

Think there was a time when we certainly were.

Was thinking about the first retained list NP had, in addition to those I mentioned before (the likes of Bentley, Kalas, Baker, Wells, Palmer etc) we then also had Diedhiou, Paterson, Hunt & Lansbury on board.

Our side now is littered with Academy products & signings from League One, just can’t see it.

[Lew-T]

It’s stating the bloody obvious but we really need a change of direction upstairs. New ownership can’t come soon enough…

[frenchred]

35 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

SL The Magpie - has a new shiny golf course to invest in!

And he's pissing off the locals with what he's doing there!

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, GrahamC said:

No longer, no.

Think there was a time when we certainly were.

Was thinking about the first retained list NP had, in addition to those I mentioned before (the likes of Bentley, Kalas, Baker, Wells, Palmer etc) we then also had Diedhiou, Paterson, Hunt & Lansbury on board.

Our side now is littered with Academy products & signings from League One, just can’t see it.

Correct - and a couple of semi anecdotal aspects here.  Kalas was offered a deal and didn’t take it, moving to a Bundesliga 2 side in preference (albeit a big one). I’d be confident that the top section of our division pay in line with Shalke.

Vyner is holding out on a new deal that’s been on the table and Swansea are supposed to be in. I don’t see any way that they’re top 6-8 payers even with the Piroe money (we’re not with the Scott money after all), and if they can do a deal and we can’t it indicates we pay less.

The base makeup of the squad suggests a bottom third budget based on acquisition (if not ability). That we were middle third last season and hoped for more this while NP has sold key assets shows to me the job he’s done

[CyderInACan]

2 hours ago, RedRoss said:

Come on I know there's several reasons to berate SL at the moment but it's inconceivable that LJ will be coming back. I'll bet my house on it.

I hope you have a spare house . . . 

[Lew-T]

Sick to death of being promised Pasture but being given Rustlers.

[Hello Dave]

3 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I just don't get our club or it's finances at the moment.

Correct me if I'm wrong but: -

- We've just received £25m for one player who cost us nothing, in addition to £10m in January for another player who cost us nothing

- As demonstrated above, we have substantially reduced the wage bill over the last few years

- We have obvious weaknesses in the team that need addressing, and a squad that is currently very unlikely to challenge for the top six.

 

....so if we can't or won't spend money in these circumstances in order to give ourselves a proper chance of progression and promotion - when can we?

And if we needed that money just to cover losses - what the hell would we have done without that massive cash injection that wasn't guaranteed? And why aren't we are competitive as other Championship sides who haven't had the benefit of £35m in transfer receipts in the last 8 months?

What's going on? Can anyone explain it?

You say the wage bill has been slashed, but it’s still more than our incomings. Let’s say we have 15000 season ticket holders at an average of £500. That’s only £7.5m. Where does the shortfall come from? Those figures are only wages, what about the upkeep of the stadium etc?

It’s no secret that we have been losing about £20 m per season, sometimes more. These transfer fees are just plugging a gap. As much as I want us to sign a striker, creative midfielder and a keeper, we’ve got to be realistic. It’s simple housekeeping.

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Correct.  Think we just had a load of crap player being paid too much!

So was I.

I’ve gone from - surely Nige was bluffing about maxing out the wage budget

To - SL is setting Nige up to fail and it’s gonna be a long season

I think we will know much more by the next international break (not this one).  Hoping we will know more about:

Conway

McCrorie

Atkinson

Weimann

and even Benarous

If we have line of sight on their return (even if it’s bad news) we can ready our expectations.

I suppose it's only setting Nige up to fail if the objective is to be in or around the top 6 (let's say 8th or higher).

If behind the scenes both parties are agreed that we are just at the austerity stage of a long term plan to strip everything back to then build again, then that's fine. In that example it's really a case of having to manage fans expectations before things get toxic.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Hello Dave said:

You say the wage bill has been slashed, but it’s still more than our incomings. Let’s say we have 15000 season ticket holders at an average of £500. That’s only £7.5m. Where does the shortfall come from? Those figures are only wages, what about the upkeep of the stadium etc?

It’s no secret that we have been losing about £20 m per season, sometimes more. These transfer fees are just plugging a gap. As much as I want us to sign a striker, creative midfielder and a keeper, we’ve got to be realistic. It’s simple housekeeping.

Our revenue is more than season ticket sales.  It’s no longer more than our incomings.  There are two other cost buckets - amortisation (down from £12m peak to circa £2m this season) and the wonderfully named “other costs” which is everything else.

[Simon bristol]

1 hour ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

We need to go Johnny Foreigner, yes! At last, someone catches on (to what I have been pointing out, occasionally, on here, for many a year now). Steve needs to widen his search for his next head coach, people all over the planet manage and coach football  (who knew) and many of them (who knew) are better at it than our brave English Nigels and Lees/blokes (bless 'em). There's even studies and stats to back this up (feast yer eyes, Davefevs and that Ajax lad). Fact is, English blokes aren't that good and you don't need to "know the league." 

Look how international the Championship is now, then cast and eye over Bristol City: It’s like Brexit's last stand. Even Burnley have gone abroad.

Cant agree,, every transfer is a risk, especially given our record, but signings from abroad just increase the risk because we dont know how they settle… kodjia was a star, fam was decent, and so was elliasson, but weve made a number of non uk signings over the last few years and a lot of them have been hopeless, with at least one established international who wanted to leave cause he was home sick.

[Hello Dave]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Our revenue is more than season ticket sales.  It’s no longer more than our incomings.  There are two other cost buckets - amortisation (down from £12m peak to circa £2m this season) and the wonderfully named “other costs” which is everything else.

Obviously season ticket sales aren’t the only income, but does it cover the wage bill? If so, what do you think the expected loss will be this year?

[The Gasbuster]

5 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

Guess this is the owner shutting the wallet.

Seriously fear a tough season ahead, and Nige not wishing to extend his contract in such a situation

We went through a similar stage with McInness about 10 years ago.

He was challenged with reducing the wage bill, did so and we were duly relegated.

I don’t think that will happen this season because we have better players and a much better manager.

Still disappointing to see though, while shit clubs like Luton and Bournemouth do their thing in the P.L.

Rinse and repeat.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Hello Dave said:

Obviously season ticket sales aren’t the only income, but does it cover the wage bill? If so, what do you think the expected loss will be this year?

Expected loss?  My guess c£10m profit

Operational loss (no Scott money)?  My guess? c£13m loss

(Very crude guesses)

I actually think football revenue vs football wages might be quite similar for once.

[Rob k]

1 minute ago, The Gasbuster said:

We went through a similar stage with McInness about 10 years ago.

He was challenged with reducing the wage bill, did so and we were duly relegated.

I don’t think that will happen this season because we have better players and a much better manager.

Still disappointing to see though, while shit clubs like Luton and Bournemouth do their thing in the P.L.

Rinse and repeat.

And watch Ipswich go straight through the championship too - that will be sickening 

[Kid in the Riot]

1 minute ago, Rob k said:

And watch Ipswich go straight through the championship too - that will be sickening 

Finishing below Plymouth etc 

[Cityboy1954]

6 hours ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Do we need to consider letting or or two go to bring in better? For example some of the higher earners? Williams is the standout for me, we could trade him for a more creative midfield player which we desperately need! Maybe we also need to accept Cornick/Wells to be sacrificed for a better forward player until Tommy returns. 

Trouble is who would want them .

[Hello Dave]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Expected loss?  My guess c£10m profit

Operational loss (no Scott money)?  My guess? c£13m loss

(Very crude guesses)

I actually think football revenue vs football wages might be quite similar for once.

Do you think the Scott money would be paid up front or over a period of a few seasons? We’re still losing money, even if it is less than previous years. We’ve made a profit once in the last 20 years( think it was when we sold Webster and others), surely people can see that there needs to be some belt tightening?

[Redrascal2]

12 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Cant agree,, every transfer is a risk, especially given our record, but signings from abroad just increase the risk because we dont know how they settle… kodjia was a star, fam was decent, and so was elliasson, but weve made a number of non uk signings over the last few years and a lot of them have been hopeless, with at least one established international who wanted to leave cause he was home sick.

Isn't the biggest risk those people who chose the players to sign and then agree the fees and wages. We get idiots like Johnson and Ashton signing players and it doesn't really matter where they are from. Look how well Brighton and Brentford recruit both in and out of the Premiership. Clearly a good recruitment and management team at work there. And they sign lots of foreign players 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Hello Dave said:

Do you think the Scott money would be paid up front or over a period of a few seasons? We’re still losing money, even if it is less than previous years. We’ve made a profit once in the last 20 years( think it was when we sold Webster and others), surely people can see that there needs to be some belt tightening?

It makes no difference what the payment terms are, the sale is added to the books immediately.

If SL genuinely wants total sustainability, ie to run the club as profit or break even, then he should communicate that to the fans, and why he’s changed his strategy.  The best tightening by Nige has been huge.  We are back to playing budgets in the first year or so back in the Championship!  Expecting us to challenge in the top half of the Championship on a budget of 7 years ago is ridiculous.

[Hello Dave]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It makes no difference what the payment terms are, the sale is added to the books immediately.

If SL genuinely wants total sustainability, ie to run the club as profit or break even, then he should communicate that to the fans, and why he’s changed his strategy.  The best tightening by Nige has been huge.  We are back to playing budgets in the first year or so back in the Championship!  Expecting us to challenge in the top half of the Championship on a budget of 7 years ago is ridiculous.

I totally agree we can’t challenge on a minimal budget, but, playing devils advocate, perhaps Lansdown is pissed off with losing money every year and  getting slagged off for it, hence the belt tightening.

I also agree that, if it is his intention is to try and break even, he should stop putting unrealistic expectations on the manager(s).

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Hello Dave said:

I totally agree we can’t challenge on a minimal budget, but, playing devils advocate, perhaps Lansdown is pissed off with losing money every year and  getting slagged off for it, hence the belt tightening.

I also agree that, if it is his intention is to try and break even, he should stop putting unrealistic expectations on the manager(s).

He should be thanking Nige not praising Mark Robins for reducing the need for him to put money in then

[Sir Geoff]

16 minutes ago, Hello Dave said:

I totally agree we can’t challenge on a minimal budget, but, playing devils advocate, perhaps Lansdown is pissed off with losing money every year and  getting slagged off for it, hence the belt tightening.

I also agree that, if it is his intention is to try and break even, he should stop putting unrealistic expectations on the manager(s).

I think he's getting off lightly at the moment. Just wait for 12/18 months time after he has allowed NP to leave and we are staring at a return to League one.

[Simon bristol]

57 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

Isn't the biggest risk those people who chose the players to sign and then agree the fees and wages. We get idiots like Johnson and Ashton signing players and it doesn't really matter where they are from. Look how well Brighton and Brentford recruit both in and out of the Premiership. Clearly a good recruitment and management team at work there. And they sign lots of foreign players 

Brentford and brighton have been fantastic with their signings, but even now with Johnson and ashton long gone i still wouldnt trust half of our signings, though hopefully knight and gardner hickman will come in and be stars. Our best players with a few honourable exceptions over the last 5 years or so have been academy players, we signed 2 non uk keepers in the last year and they played 1 game between them and certainly cant/ couldnt compete with max for a starting spot, but we still had to pay them!

 

[ChippenhamRed]

1 hour ago, Hello Dave said:

You say the wage bill has been slashed, but it’s still more than our incomings. Let’s say we have 15000 season ticket holders at an average of £500. That’s only £7.5m. Where does the shortfall come from? Those figures are only wages, what about the upkeep of the stadium etc?

It’s no secret that we have been losing about £20 m per season, sometimes more. These transfer fees are just plugging a gap. As much as I want us to sign a striker, creative midfielder and a keeper, we’ve got to be realistic. It’s simple housekeeping.

Our income isn’t solely down to season ticket sales - you’re forgetting lots of other revenues streams - hospitality, merchandise, TV income for example.

And the questions still stand - if our “simple housekeeping” requires us to sell a £25 million pound player and not spend a penny of it - how the hell is that in any way sustainable, what happens when we don’t have a £25 million pound player to sell, and how are other clubs competing without enormous transfer receipts?

[Mr Popodopolous]

21 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Our income isn’t solely down to season ticket sales - you’re forgetting lots of other revenues streams - hospitality, merchandise, TV income for example.

And the questions still stand - if our “simple housekeeping” requires us to sell a £25 million pound player and not spend a penny of it - how the hell is that in any way sustainable, what happens when we don’t have a £25 million pound player to sell, and how are other clubs competing without enormous transfer receipts?

Our income should be around £30m.

I expect our total cost base this season to be- talking the consolidator nor the club in isolation- in the £45-50m bracket.

Without the Scott sale? Perhaps a £15-20m loss before tax.

It's not really the Profit or loss before Tax, sure it's important and sure it is the benchmark for FFP/P&S but it is the Cash Flow that is decisive for businesses.

Simple theory of mine and others I dare say is that SL perhaps isn't so keen to stick in £10-15m per year in cash losses and is running the club accordingly. The payment structure for Scott will very much help with this.

I don't support the not reinvesting a healthy proportion of it side, just outlining one theory as to what maybe happening.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Kid in the Riot]

Our revenue is one of the highest in the Championship.

Even including clubs that have dropped down from the Premier League, we are in the top 8 in the Championship in terms of revenue.

Our off-field commercial success is a real success story compared to where we were five years ago.

There's no excuse for this Lansdown imposed austerity on the playing side.