Jump to content
IGNORED

What do you do


redkev

Recommended Posts

28 minutes ago, KegCity said:

I know. Hence why I said in my original post that we need to make players believe they can get to the Premier League with us.

Can't see it ever happening. If we get there, it will be striking it lucky via the playoffs. We're not set up to be challengers at this level, and we don't have the infrastructure to either. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, robinforlife2 said:

Can't see it ever happening. If we get there, it will be striking it lucky via the playoffs. We're not set up to be challengers at this level, and we don't have the infrastructure to either. 

Essentially that is the norm for non Parachute clubs under the current system.

Ipswich may yet break the mould but check the last few seasons..

2019-20..WBA (Parachute), Leeds- Bielsa superb, non Parachute. Won it.

2020-21..Norwich (Parachute), Watford (Parachute).

2021-22..Fulham (Parachute), Bournemouth (Parachute).

2022-23..Burnley (Parachute), Sheffield United (Parachute).

2019-20, Fulham as a Parachute side won playoffs v non Parachute Brentford. Cardiff and Swansea both Parachute clubs too.

2020-21..Non Parachute Brentford win playoffs, Swansea who they beat were Parachute bolstered. Losing semi finalists Barnsley and Bournemouth were non-Parachute and Parachute respectively.

2021-22..Nottingham Forest who were non-Parachute surged and won the playoffs. Huddersfield who they beat were Parachute. Losing semi finalists Luton and Sheffield United were non Parachute and Parachute respectively.

2022-23..In a refreshing change all of Coventry, Luton, Middlesbrough and Sunderland were non Parachute sides!!

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

I'd forgotten about the other half of the board.

Then again, I know absolutely nothing about him other than what I read on Linkedin.

Incidentally, I saw on Linkedin that Dave Barton has left as head of Comms for Bristol CIty to Head up Comms for Bristol Sport (or is it old news). They're looking for a replacement. Maybe JL was serious about improving the comms ? Or he's going to do it himself..

It’s old news for those who’ve known for a little while! 😉

It new news formally though!

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Can you quantify in financial terms the lack of ambition point..£22.2m, £28.5m and of course the Covid affected years of £38m and £10m in losses across the prior 4 seasons. 

Can you quantify how we should demonstrate this, either in financial or intent based terms.

⬇️⬇️⬇️

1 hour ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I think a big lose is no reflection on ambition. Much more a reflection of previous poor management. As I said they want to stay in the Championship to retain income level and maximise the chance of selling. £22.2 and 28.5 turned out to be the cost of staying in the championship.

My view too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, TV Tom said:

You’d think Semenyo & Scott (2 great players) would improve us massively though our finishing league positions the last two seasons might suggest otherwise or are we just over-achieving this season without them ?

On this seasons performances , the lack of creativity ( Scott brings to the table ) and a finisher and some pace / physicality ( Antoine ) brings , not saying everything would be rosy in the garden and we would be 2 points behind Leicester but I think we would be much more complete , 

perhaps our new one for the future ( yet another one ) will propel us to the promised land 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, TV Tom said:

You’d think Semenyo & Scott (2 great players) would improve us massively though our finishing league positions the last two seasons might suggest otherwise or are we just over-achieving this season without them ?

Yes , the majority of teams in this league are much of a muchness, you could toss a coin as to who will win , they all have well coached championship standard players and managers who know enough to set up their team to at least frustrate the opposition. Two quality players make a lot of difference, imo would have placed us top six.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, robinforlife2 said:

Can't see it ever happening. If we get there, it will be striking it lucky via the playoffs. We're not set up to be challengers at this level, and we don't have the infrastructure to either. 

So you don’t think we should even try ? In that case why do you go to the games?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Grey Fox said:

So you don’t think we should even try ? In that case why do you go to the games?

Where did I say that we shouldn't even try? People are complaining we have to sell our best assets and that we should keep them. The fact is, without a sale every couple of years, we would breach FFP, we can't recruit quality, as we can't justify the wages. It's not about trying, it's about living within our means. We financially can't compete with the teams that have been in the top flight in the last three years and other sides who generate higher income than us.

If we sold out 27K every home game charging £40 a ticket, that brings in 25m a year in revenue, but the fans would whinge and say its too expensive. You either want us to use the model we have to, to survive and hope to get lucky, or the club needs to make money to be able to increase the spend. So, do fans want cheap seats for kids, cheap games and members offers, or do they want sky high ticket prices to justify bigger budgets. You can't have everything. 

We are not an attractive revenue stream sadly. There isn't mass following or mass merchandise sales and our tickets are generally quite reasonable and we look after the younger supporters. 

We have to sell to survive or to fund the next influx. Maybe if we have 8-10 years of selling a player for 10-15m+ a year, and we don't spend much of the money, then in 10 years there could be a pot to go for it for a couple of seasons without risking financial ruin, but its not about trying, we just aren't financially able to compete.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, robinforlife2 said:

Where did I say that we shouldn't even try? People are complaining we have to sell our best assets and that we should keep them. The fact is, without a sale every couple of years, we would breach FFP, we can't recruit quality, as we can't justify the wages. It's not about trying, it's about living within our means. We financially can't compete with the teams that have been in the top flight in the last three years and other sides who generate higher income than us.

If we sold out 27K every home game charging £40 a ticket, that brings in 25m a year in revenue, but the fans would whinge and say its too expensive. You either want us to use the model we have to, to survive and hope to get lucky, or the club needs to make money to be able to increase the spend. So, do fans want cheap seats for kids, cheap games and members offers, or do they want sky high ticket prices to justify bigger budgets. You can't have everything. 

We are not an attractive revenue stream sadly. There isn't mass following or mass merchandise sales and our tickets are generally quite reasonable and we look after the younger supporters. 

We have to sell to survive or to fund the next influx. Maybe if we have 8-10 years of selling a player for 10-15m+ a year, and we don't spend much of the money, then in 10 years there could be a pot to go for it for a couple of seasons without risking financial ruin, but its not about trying, we just aren't financially able to compete.

We have a turnover of £36m or did in the last consolidated accounts.

For FFP you can lose £13m a year plus allowables if SL willing to fund it. Say £7m in allowables.

We can without the benefit of any sales run a cost base of up to £55-56m.

Wouldn't say subject to SL, we have a notable issue any time soon.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We have a turnover of £36m or did in the last consolidated accounts.

For FFP you can lose £13m a year plus allowables if SL willing to fund it. Say £7m in allowables.

We can without the benefit of any sales run a cost base of up to £55-56m.

Wouldn't say subject to SL, we have  a notable issue any time soon.

We are already running at 20m loss avg each year, there is no space to expand that, we need sales to comply.

A turnover of 36m is one thing, but that includes sales and investment, ticket sales, tv rights, the lot. Remove the big sales every couple of years and we breach FFP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, robinforlife2 said:

Can't see it ever happening. If we get there, it will be striking it lucky via the playoffs. We're not set up to be challengers at this level, and we don't have the infrastructure to either. 

Exactly as Steve mentioned in his nest egg interview our plan now seems to be striking lucky via play-offs. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, robinforlife2 said:

We are already running at 20m loss avg each year, there is no space to expand that, we need sales to comply.

A turnover of 36m is one thing, but that includes sales and investment, ticket sales, tv rights, the lot. Remove the big sales every couple of years and we breach FFP.

That impact of 13 months needs factoring in.

I expect the underlying loss this year to be about £18m and that is before the impact of the Scott sale...time will tell if I'm correct or otherwise but underlying loss of anything up to £20m is probably okay for P&S.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, robinforlife2 said:

Where did I say that we shouldn't even try? People are complaining we have to sell our best assets and that we should keep them. The fact is, without a sale every couple of years, we would breach FFP, we can't recruit quality, as we can't justify the wages. It's not about trying, it's about living within our means. We financially can't compete with the teams that have been in the top flight in the last three years and other sides who generate higher income than us.

If we sold out 27K every home game charging £40 a ticket, that brings in 25m a year in revenue, but the fans would whinge and say its too expensive. You either want us to use the model we have to, to survive and hope to get lucky, or the club needs to make money to be able to increase the spend. So, do fans want cheap seats for kids, cheap games and members offers, or do they want sky high ticket prices to justify bigger budgets. You can't have everything. 

We are not an attractive revenue stream sadly. There isn't mass following or mass merchandise sales and our tickets are generally quite reasonable and we look after the younger supporters. 

We have to sell to survive or to fund the next influx. Maybe if we have 8-10 years of selling a player for 10-15m+ a year, and we don't spend much of the money, then in 10 years there could be a pot to go for it for a couple of seasons without risking financial ruin, but its not about trying, we just aren't financially able to compete.

Just as well know one told Luton Town that , or Burnley , or Brentford , or at the time of promotion Brighton or Crystal Palace , Bournemouth etc etc. 
Remember , negative people have a problem for every solution 😊

We are Bristol City not Cheltenham Town and absolutely should be challenging the biggest and the best, we should at least f*****( try.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Around 20 years ago we played Brighton at the Millenium Stadium, and we actually appeared at one time to have a certain symbiotic relationship with the South Coast side.  We lost that day to a late goal, and   from then on in   our trajectory's have veered in very different directions?  We had the major advantage of a Millionaire.....subsequently...... Billionaire owner, yet Brighton, 20 years on, are playing in Europe and sitting comfortably in 7 th place in the Premiership, while we continue to languish as a mid table Championship side, seemingly no closer to the Prem than we were 20 years ago?

 It seems to me that the difference between Brighton and Bristol City appears at first sight......... to be all about....recruitment, recruitment and recruitment?   Choosing the right manager, and having the right scouting system,  which allowed them to identify and recruit exactly the right type of player, whom they then sold on, and then continued to replace   with other excellent footballers, and in the meantime seek out outstanding manager/coaches to keep their ambitions nicely simmering away?

Is it that simple?  Is it purely their ability to find and recruit exactly the right players and management over the   years, which has allowed them to leave us in their slipstream, and all this, despite Bristol City seemingly   having all the advantages and support that should have allowed us to also reach and thrive in the Premiership, as they have?    What is the fundamental difference between our two sides, that has eventually ended up with such a massive disparity in our current positions?  Is it really all about buying the right players and employing the perfect manager/coach, or is there more to it?          I WANT to know?   Ha!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Is it that simple?

Simple answer: yes! 😉

When @headhunter interviewed Joe Royle last year he used the same words as you, even the same number!

48 minutes ago, maxjak said:

recruitment, recruitment and recruitment

It’s a major part.

The others are - Academy - to avoid the need to pay to recruit, and selling players to recruit the next lot.

FWIW I do think recruitment has improved.  I hope it continues to.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Simple answer: yes! 😉

When @headhunter interviewed Joe Royle last year he used the same words as you, even the same number!

It’s a major part.

The others are - Academy - to avoid the need to pay to recruit, and selling players to recruit the next lot.

FWIW I do think recruitment has improved.  I hope it continues to.

I honestly have not heard the Joe interview....I will seek it out, is that The Forever podcast?  I was there when JR scored all 4 against M'boro, always loved the guy.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Grey Fox said:

Just as well know one told Luton Town that , or Burnley , or Brentford , or at the time of promotion Brighton or Crystal Palace , Bournemouth etc etc. 
Remember , negative people have a problem for every solution 😊

We are Bristol City not Cheltenham Town and absolutely should be challenging the biggest and the best, we should at least f*****( try.

Luton have sold their best players many a times, but have players on next to no money.

For years Brentford, Brighton and even Palace were selling clubs until they got to the Premier League and Brighton are still a feeder for top six clubs. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, maxjak said:

Around 20 years ago we played Brighton at the Millenium Stadium, and we actually appeared at one time to have a certain symbiotic relationship with the South Coast side.  We lost that day to a late goal, and   from then on in   our trajectory's have veered in very different directions?  We had the major advantage of a Millionaire.....subsequently...... Billionaire owner, yet Brighton, 20 years on, are playing in Europe and sitting comfortably in 7 th place in the Premiership, while we continue to languish as a mid table Championship side, seemingly no closer to the Prem than we were 20 years ago?

 It seems to me that the difference between Brighton and Bristol City appears at first sight......... to be all about....recruitment, recruitment and recruitment?   Choosing the right manager, and having the right scouting system,  which allowed them to identify and recruit exactly the right type of player, whom they then sold on, and then continued to replace   with other excellent footballers, and in the meantime seek out outstanding manager/coaches to keep their ambitions nicely simmering away?

Is it that simple?  Is it purely their ability to find and recruit exactly the right players and management over the   years, which has allowed them to leave us in their slipstream, and all this, despite Bristol City seemingly   having all the advantages and support that should have allowed us to also reach and thrive in the Premiership, as they have?    What is the fundamental difference between our two sides, that has eventually ended up with such a massive disparity in our current positions?  Is it really all about buying the right players and employing the perfect manager/coach, or is there more to it?          I WANT to know?   Ha!!

Brighton, also have Tony Bloom, a self made Billionaire and the heir of American Express through marriage! Those links have seen a stadium funded by sponsorship, and a big kick into the American Merchandise market. Like I have tried to say before, the wealth of an owner is not the only important thing, but the links they have and bring with it. We have a passionate local Billionaire, but he's brought no friends and links to the party to bring in outside money and help us build better.

SL may be wealthier at present than Tony Bloom, but Tony, is far more resourceful and connected, than SL will ever be. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, maxjak said:

Around 20 years ago we played Brighton at the Millenium Stadium, and we actually appeared at one time to have a certain symbiotic relationship with the South Coast side.  We lost that day to a late goal, and   from then on in   our trajectory's have veered in very different directions?  We had the major advantage of a Millionaire.....subsequently...... Billionaire owner, yet Brighton, 20 years on, are playing in Europe and sitting comfortably in 7 th place in the Premiership, while we continue to languish as a mid table Championship side, seemingly no closer to the Prem than we were 20 years ago?

 It seems to me that the difference between Brighton and Bristol City appears at first sight......... to be all about....recruitment, recruitment and recruitment?   Choosing the right manager, and having the right scouting system,  which allowed them to identify and recruit exactly the right type of player, whom they then sold on, and then continued to replace   with other excellent footballers, and in the meantime seek out outstanding manager/coaches to keep their ambitions nicely simmering away?

Is it that simple?  Is it purely their ability to find and recruit exactly the right players and management over the   years, which has allowed them to leave us in their slipstream, and all this, despite Bristol City seemingly   having all the advantages and support that should have allowed us to also reach and thrive in the Premiership, as they have?    What is the fundamental difference between our two sides, that has eventually ended up with such a massive disparity in our current positions?  Is it really all about buying the right players and employing the perfect manager/coach, or is there more to it?          I WANT to know?   Ha!!

Simply the difference is that Lansdown is an accountant without one ounce of football knowledge and also he hasn't employed football people to run the club. Eg. his son!

And when he has employed football people, they don't last long enough to change and improve the FOOTBALL CLUB before he gets rid of them. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, maxjak said:

I honestly have not heard the Joe interview....I will seek it out, is that The Forever podcast?  I was there when JR scored all 4 against M'boro, always loved the guy.

Yes, FBC, @headhunter will point you at it I’m sure.

1 hour ago, robinforlife2 said:

Brighton, also have Tony Bloom, a self made Billionaire and the heir of American Express through marriage! Those links have seen a stadium funded by sponsorship, and a big kick into the American Merchandise market. Like I have tried to say before, the wealth of an owner is not the only important thing, but the links they have and bring with it. We have a passionate local Billionaire, but he's brought no friends and links to the party to bring in outside money and help us build better.

SL may be wealthier at present than Tony Bloom, but Tony, is far more resourceful and connected, than SL will ever be. 

That’s hardly a ringing endorsement is it!

As for Bloom he brought in “bespoke data capabilities” to the club to underpin recruitment, just like Benham at Brentford.  There is a trend in there! 😉😉😉

Small club - recruit brilliantly - do well. 🤣

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, robinforlife2 said:

Luton have sold their best players many a times, but have players on next to no money.

For years Brentford, Brighton and even Palace were selling clubs until they got to the Premier League and Brighton are still a feeder for top six clubs. 

So your big plan for the future, is ………., to keep selling at every opportunity, and hope that one year we get lucky ?

Really ??????????

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, maxjak said:

I honestly have not heard the Joe interview....I will seek it out, is that The Forever podcast?  I was there when JR scored all 4 against M'boro, always loved the guy.

Here is a link to the Joe Royle interview that @Davefevs referred to: https://foreverbristolcity.podbean.com/e/in-conversation-with-joe-royle/ 

We [FBC] have done quite a few one-to-one interviews including Alan Dicks & Gary Shelton to name just two. Here are links to their interviews:

https://foreverbristolcity.podbean.com/e/in-conversation-with-former-city-manager-alan-dicks/

https://foreverbristolcity.podbean.com/e/in-conversation-with-gary-shelton-89-94-150-apps-24-goals/

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, robinforlife2 said:

Brighton, also have Tony Bloom, a self made Billionaire and the heir of American Express through marriage! Those links have seen a stadium funded by sponsorship, and a big kick into the American Merchandise market. Like I have tried to say before, the wealth of an owner is not the only important thing, but the links they have and bring with it. We have a passionate local Billionaire, but he's brought no friends and links to the party to bring in outside money and help us build better.

SL may be wealthier at present than Tony Bloom, but Tony, is far more resourceful and connected, than SL will ever be. 

Well yeah…isn't that what may people have been saying for ages? The club needs experienced people at the helm. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

TBF at the moment even the rugby players can't do well at rugby. 

The whole Bristol Sport thing is a malaise at present. If it was down to me we wouldn't even be a part of it at all but that's a different discussion.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Grey Fox said:

So your big plan for the future, is ………., to keep selling at every opportunity, and hope that one year we get lucky ?

Really ??????????

No, as said, we need to spend 8-10 years selling at least one prized asset for 10m+ every 18 months to 2 years. In doing this the club will reach a point where it is sustainable and not operating at catastrophic losses. In doing this, we will have built a bank or nest egg, which allow us to have a proper crack at it over a couple of seasons, where other clubs may not be able to do so, as they have gambled and lost. Because the money would also be from being sustainable, it would not have a adverse reaction like it did after LJ and MA's time at the helm.

The other alternative, is that the club comes into money via investment and links.

Lets look at it this way, It costs £3,500 to sponsor a match at Bristol City, which generates 80K a year for the club. A client of mine sponsored a match at Leeds this season and it cost him £12,000. So there's a huge different in money the club makes from corporate clients, to leading clubs in this league.

Brighton a club previously mentioned, had Amex a stadium sponsor at £10m a year for 5 years, and this is a lucrative deal. If we attracted a big investor who represented a big company, we could equally do such deals, which add more money into what we can spend. However, this won't happen whilst Lansdown is our owner, so route one of gradual progression and in a long period of time, be financially positioned to go for it. 

  • Hmmm 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 03/01/2024 at 11:54, exAtyeoMax said:

Perhaps if the club had a better infrastructure players wouldn't be so keen to leave. The poor way the club is structured and the lack of cohesive plan will ultimately backfire. 

We need new owners, new infrastructure, with a development path that the top players buy in to. Other clubs have done it.
Not what we currently have under the Lansdowns and never will have.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, robinforlife2 said:

No, as said, we need to spend 8-10 years selling at least one prized asset for 10m+ every 18 months to 2 years. In doing this the club will reach a point where it is sustainable and not operating at catastrophic losses. In doing this, we will have built a bank or nest egg, which allow us to have a proper crack at it over a couple of seasons, where other clubs may not be able to do so, as they have gambled and lost. Because the money would also be from being sustainable, it would not have a adverse reaction like it did after LJ and MA's time at the helm.

The other alternative, is that the club comes into money via investment and links.

Lets look at it this way, It costs £3,500 to sponsor a match at Bristol City, which generates 80K a year for the club. A client of mine sponsored a match at Leeds this season and it cost him £12,000. So there's a huge different in money the club makes from corporate clients, to leading clubs in this league.

Brighton a club previously mentioned, had Amex a stadium sponsor at £10m a year for 5 years, and this is a lucrative deal. If we attracted a big investor who represented a big company, we could equally do such deals, which add more money into what we can spend. However, this won't happen whilst Lansdown is our owner, so route one of gradual progression and in a long period of time, be financially positioned to go for it. 

Jesus wept 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

SL could bolster our turnover legitimately if he saw fit.

Provided they are fair market value and cleared as such, the following areas remain untouched:

A) Stadium Naming Rights

B) Stand Naming Rights

C) HPC Naming Rights

Maybe even medium term the Sporting Quarter could enhance Group Commercial Revenue or Naming Rights.

The other aspect of a)-c) especially is that SL has or has interest in a range of other companies, said it before but they could be promoted via naming rights while simultaneously boosting our Commercial Revenue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, robinforlife2 said:

No, as said, we need to spend 8-10 years selling at least one prized asset for 10m+ every 18 months to 2 years. In doing this the club will reach a point where it is sustainable and not operating at catastrophic losses. In doing this, we will have built a bank or nest egg, which allow us to have a proper crack at it over a couple of seasons, where other clubs may not be able to do so, as they have gambled and lost. Because the money would also be from being sustainable, it would not have a adverse reaction like it did after LJ and MA's time at the helm.

The other alternative, is that the club comes into money via investment and links.

Lets look at it this way, It costs £3,500 to sponsor a match at Bristol City, which generates 80K a year for the club. A client of mine sponsored a match at Leeds this season and it cost him £12,000. So there's a huge different in money the club makes from corporate clients, to leading clubs in this league.

Brighton a club previously mentioned, had Amex a stadium sponsor at £10m a year for 5 years, and this is a lucrative deal. If we attracted a big investor who represented a big company, we could equally do such deals, which add more money into what we can spend. However, this won't happen whilst Lansdown is our owner, so route one of gradual progression and in a long period of time, be financially positioned to go for it. 

so after 20 years of ownership…we have to wait another 20 years…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

SL could bolster our turnover legitimately if he saw fit.

Provided they are fair market value and cleared as such, the following areas remain untouched:

A) Stadium Naming Rights

B) Stand Naming Rights

C) HPC Naming Rights

Maybe even medium term the Sporting Quarter could enhance Group Commercial Revenue or Naming Rights.

The other aspect of a)-c) especially is that SL has or has interest in a range of other companies, said it before but they could be promoted via naming rights while simultaneously boosting our Commercial Revenue.

Or stock the club shop with something worth buying, or just stock it ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Grey Fox said:

Or stock the club shop with something worth buying, or just stock it ?

Many things.

Think we have grown the Commercial base well post rebuild but we can always do more, do better- no room for complacency or satisfaction on the part of the hierarchy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...