Mr Popodopolous Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Tim Monaghan said: Yes, I certainly believe he would be exactly the right tactical fit. Either or has he can play both roles. He's actually deceptively quick and decent with his feet. Anyway, its a bit of a non debate as he won't be coming here. Let's stick with profile of Moore then rather than just Moore verbatim, if we find anyone of that profile. Lone striker, pair with Conway? Back 3..feels like it may unbalance the side unless the personnel spot on. If Conway is sold it's all academic. Edited February 22 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Geoff Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 40 minutes ago, Super said: We were 15th when he took over weren't we? What exactly were you expecting? 11th and 8th a week before. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said: 11th and 8th a week before. 11th is a key one because that was at the time of the changing of the guard. 1/3 of season gone, 21 Pts/15 games, 40% win ratio. QPR with 1 home win in nearly a year and our great recent record there..that is an opportunity. Especially with: *QPR Away *Middlesbrough Home *Southampton Away *Norwich Home *Huddersfield Away *Blackburn Away We got 11 points from those last year with not a penalty in sight. Solid platform? Edited February 22 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 I see @Mr Popodopolous and @Tim Monaghan have posted more on the Kieffer Moore “fit”. Imho we play very different to Ipswich. Manning has said he’s only playing one forward. So, had we signed Moore, it would be instead of Tommy. So, why question is - what is the tactical fit to an Liam Manning Bristol City for Kieffer Moore? I’m asking mainly because I’m not sure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WECANDO Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Either Moore or Conway. Former for me. Do a swop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 15 minutes ago, Davefevs said: I see @Mr Popodopolous and @Tim Monaghan have posted more on the Kieffer Moore “fit”. Imho we play very different to Ipswich. Manning has said he’s only playing one forward. So, had we signed Moore, it would be instead of Tommy. So, why question is - what is the tactical fit to an Liam Manning Bristol City for Kieffer Moore? I’m asking mainly because I’m not sure. Well on the basis Conway doesn't fit Manning's style of play one who does would have been a benefit whether that have been Moore or someone else 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galley is our king Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 5 minutes ago, WECANDO said: Either Moore or Conway. Former for me. Do a swop. Moore is 31...are you serious? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 2 minutes ago, Galley is our king said: Moore is 31...are you serious? 32 come August in fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 53 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said: You think he's doing a good job? He's doing OK certainly not shite as you think. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 5 minutes ago, Lrrr said: Well on the basis Conway doesn't fit Manning's style of play one who does would have been a benefit whether that have been Moore or someone else What exactly is Manning's style of play. Pressing with wingers front 3, sure yes get Moore in at least wingers can service as he might like. I was under the impression Manning liked possession..aging Moore age 31 and soon to he 32? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) Pring and Conway we just jettison? Roberts at LB is an interesting choice not that he's done anything wrong obvs. To service Moore, do we use Pring or Roberts to better effect. Edited February 22 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 47 minutes ago, Tim Monaghan said: The metric was in the OP. Please revisit that and the post it quoted. Why next season? Unlike yourself, I don't actually believe this squad is oven-ready, if by that you mean it's the complete squad capable of gaining promotion. I don't think it's far off, but certainly not oven-ready. Assuming we don't secure Twine on a permanent basis, I feel we need a left-sided player and a striker (and I agree with BT on this) in the mould of a Keiffer Moore. I was gutted when he moved to Ipswich; he seemed precisely the type of player we needed. Turns out, he's not doing too badly at the moment, scoring 4 in 5. Why next season? Because you have to give a manager time. I know that's not what you want to hear, and it's not what JL, BT, and GM said, but I've taken all of that with a pinch of salt. They're soundbites, not particularly clever ones, hence one of the reasons they've put pressure on themselves for next season. Maybe I'm not as knee-jerk as you, and maybe you're even right, but from my experience within the game (you know my history, it's well-documented), three months isn't long in football. It simply isn't long enough to make an impact. Of course, you will have the odd anomaly of a manager, and we can also cite names on the flip side that took seasons to properly bed in like Sir Alex. So, we are essentially saying the same thing, but we just have a different timescale. You think we have an oven-ready squad, and I don't think we're quite there yet. The reason I got on to you yesterday was that you weren't much on to Pearson after he joined when he arguably had a better squad. You didn't even question it. But I'm not having this conversation again, so we will just have to park that. Why am I excited about Manning and why do I think he's a good fit for the club? Because I believe he is a young, intelligent manager who wants to play the game the way I like to watch it. He also has a good history of working with youth players. We've seen flashes of how Manning likes to play in games vs Watford, Southampton, Coventry, all four FA Cup games, etc. This is the football I was looking for, and I was excited about Manning. But, we have also seen some of his tactical naivety; let's take the Leeds game and QPR as examples. However, if he got it right all of the time, he certainly wouldn't be managing Bristol City, and I'm happy to give him the allowance as I've mentioned; it's been three months, and he is still learning too. So, my metric as to why next season the pressure is on (although I've answered this already) is that you have to take the situation as a whole. The top brass have said what they've said. I feel like Manning needs time to fully bed in and get a grasp on what he needs and a summer transfer window to obtain those players. We have no pressure on FFP, and technically we could spend a decent amount bringing us to a point where Manning has to deliver due to what JL has ultimately promised, and there shouldn't be any excuse why this can't be done. I'm just not sure why my pre season expectations should change just because weve got a new guy at the helm? He came in here and his starting position was much better than any manager here has inherited for decades. He didn't need to get the players fit, didn't need to get rid of dead wood, didn't need to build a culture. All he had to do was "coach on the grass" and that's why (and you may find this unfair) my expectations were elevated. All the ground work had been done for him. The foundations had been built. In fact the house had been built, he just needed to put the roof on. There would have been a manager out there who could have got this squad to achieve my expections this season and that's why I think it's fair game to criticise Manning for not doing so. I suppose where I'm at, I've not seen anything that suggests that even with a pre season and being allowed to spend money, he'll be able to achieve success here. I think he's out of his depth personally right now. Can you name me 3 positives from Mannings time here so far? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Davefevs said: I see @Mr Popodopolous and @Tim Monaghan have posted more on the Kieffer Moore “fit”. Imho we play very different to Ipswich. Manning has said he’s only playing one forward. So, had we signed Moore, it would be instead of Tommy. So, why question is - what is the tactical fit to an Liam Manning Bristol City for Kieffer Moore? I’m asking mainly because I’m not sure. I'm not sure either Dave. Not sure I'd be getting rid of Tommy with so much potential growth too albeit only summer 2025 as it stands so there's that. Conway the better technical player than Moore? His first season and especially at Rotherham in October there were some goals self-created, scored out of nothing pretty much. Not all but some. Edited February 22 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Better Red Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 19 minutes ago, Tim Monaghan said: Agreed, Ipswich are a lot quicker than us moving the ball forward. But I believe that KM is as suited to a slower build up to, he just needs the service. Pring and Vyner are better. Max Bird will also likely start. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 6 minutes ago, Super said: He's doing OK certainly not shite as you think. No win Win No win No win No win No win Win Win Win No win No win No win No win No win No win Win Win No win 9 points from 9, 2 wins from 9, 6 wins from 18. Its not OK, it's shite. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rs Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, Galley is our king said: Still on going isn't it? Lies around the lad just arrived from Belgium. Shocking "leadership" What’s this about? Haven’t heard anything about that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 2 minutes ago, George Rs said: What’s this about? Haven’t heard anything about that When asked why Medube hadn’t played much in Belgium, both Tinnion and Manning said it was work permit issues - Liam said that DM hadn’t played for three months because of it. Anyway, turns out that was a straight out lie. The only permit issue was where Dire was one day late for a Turkish training camp due to it. He was able to play, not injured for his whole time at Westerlo - just wasn’t selected as he wasn’t deemed to be the best choice. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Tim Monaghan said: Good question, you won't agree with me, but: Defensive Improvement: Manning has emphasized a better defensive solidity IMO. Tactical Adaptation and Maturity: Despite not always converting chances into wins, Manning’s tactical approach has allowed us to dominate play and create more decent opportunities. The team’s maturity in handling challenging situations, as seen in their away performances, bodes well for our future development. Possession-Based Approach: I think we are more composed and thoughtful in possession. I love how Manning is encouraging the team to retain the ball and build up play patiently. This contrasts with more direct approaches seen in the past which sometimes was a bit hit and hope at times. High Press and Intensity: This has been maintained, but I think we actually do a better job under Liam. I'm finding that players engage opponents higher up the pitch. Set Pieces: We are far more dangerous I know you didn't ask for 4. Of course, let’s ignore the fact that when we’ve won games we’ve done it with less possession which makes points 2 and 3 frankly bizarre Edit - I think Fevs may also have analysis that shows Liams producing less xG! Edited February 22 by Silvio Dante 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Tim Monaghan said: Good question, you won't agree with me, but: Defensive Improvement: Manning has emphasized a better defensive solidity IMO. Tactical Adaptation and Maturity: Despite not always converting chances into wins, Manning’s tactical approach has allowed us to dominate play and create more decent opportunities. The team’s maturity in handling challenging situations, as seen in their away performances, bodes well for our future development. Possession-Based Approach: I think we are more composed and thoughtful in possession. I love how Manning is encouraging the team to retain the ball and build up play patiently. This contrasts with more direct approaches seen in the past which sometimes was a bit hit and hope at times. High Press and Intensity: This has been maintained, but I think we actually do a better job under Liam. I'm finding that players engage opponents higher up the pitch. Set Pieces: We are far more dangerous I know you didn't ask for 4. On the first point, we were always going to be solid with a back 4 of Pring, Dickie, Vyner, Tanner/McCrorie. As Dickie and McCrorie are here I'm have expected a bit of time for them to gel. So i'm not sure if that slight improvement is down to Manning or down to time. I think I'm going to have to refer the rest of my response on this to @Davefevs His article to the Bristol Live article was very interesting and also answers a lot of this. https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/bristol-city-liam-manning-achilles-9112040 Edited February 22 by W-S-M Seagull 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rs Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 27 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said: I'm just not sure why my pre season expectations should change just because weve got a new guy at the helm? He came in here and his starting position was much better than any manager here has inherited for decades. He didn't need to get the players fit, didn't need to get rid of dead wood, didn't need to build a culture. All he had to do was "coach on the grass" and that's why (and you may find this unfair) my expectations were elevated. All the ground work had been done for him. The foundations had been built. In fact the house had been built, he just needed to put the roof on. There would have been a manager out there who could have got this squad to achieve my expections this season and that's why I think it's fair game to criticise Manning for not doing so. I suppose where I'm at, I've not seen anything that suggests that even with a pre season and being allowed to spend money, he'll be able to achieve success here. I think he's out of his depth personally right now. Can you name me 3 positives from Mannings time here so far? Never (or extremely rarely) been “out of a game” only lost by a margin of more then 1 goal once. Played 4 games against premier league opposition and didn’t lose any of them. Has Joe Williams playing the best football of his city career, by a mile as well. Improved our gpg ratio from 1.07 to 1.22. Improved our defence as per stats shown on latest Bristol sport article. Majorly improved our ability to trigger a press and gain possession off the back of it. Do any of these things make him better than someone else who could’ve came in? Not necessarily. But stats and figures can be pulled from anywhere to suggest he’s out of his depth or suggest he’s doing a brilliant job. They don’t tell a full picture. And I don’t think you get a full picture without giving him a pre-season, I’d be inclined to do so over the alternative which could destabilise the team which is in the best position it’s been in for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rs Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 12 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: When asked why Medube hadn’t played much in Belgium, both Tinnion and Manning said it was work permit issues - Liam said that DM hadn’t played for three months because of it. Anyway, turns out that was a straight out lie. The only permit issue was where Dire was one day late for a Turkish training camp due to it. He was able to play, not injured for his whole time at Westerlo - just wasn’t selected as he wasn’t deemed to be the best choice. Ahh interesting, doesn’t really surprise me anymore. I thought he was injured for a while tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 3 minutes ago, George Rs said: Never (or extremely rarely) been “out of a game” only lost by a margin of more then 1 goal once. Played 4 games against premier league opposition and didn’t lose any of them. Has Joe Williams playing the best football of his city career, by a mile as well. Improved our gpg ratio from 1.07 to 1.22. Improved our defence as per stats shown on latest Bristol sport article. Majorly improved our ability to trigger a press and gain possession off the back of it. Do any of these things make him better than someone else who could’ve came in? Not necessarily. But stats and figures can be pulled from anywhere to suggest he’s out of his depth or suggest he’s doing a brilliant job. They don’t tell a full picture. And I don’t think you get a full picture without giving him a pre-season, I’d be inclined to do so over the alternative which could destabilise the team which is in the best position it’s been in for years. Problem is George, we're not in those games to win them either! Leeds game for example. We were never even it it to get a point despite losing by just the 1 goal. Prior to Mannings arrival this season we had only lost by a margin of more than 1 on two occasions with one being against Cardiff where we barely had 11 fit players. So is that really a positive? Joe Williams is a difficult one to quantify. It's undeniable that his time here has been hampered by injury and a lot of work has gone in to get him playing regularly. I think we would probably be saying the same output from Joe regardless of the manager because of the work to get him fit. Let's not pretend he's putting in 9s and 10s each week. The Bristol Live article shows we've changed our press and are now worse in the pressing stats as we are more happy to drop into the block rather than press. You mention the team is in the best position it has been for years and I agree. I'm of the opinion that giving him a pre season could destabilise the team because I think it's really scraping the barrel to find any real noticeable positives that have made a difference. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galley is our king Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 15 minutes ago, George Rs said: Ahh interesting, doesn’t really surprise me anymore. I thought he was injured for a while tbh. Terrible isn't it that you are lied to by a senior club official...and it doesn't surprise you.... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 36 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said: No win Win No win No win No win No win Win Win Win No win No win No win No win No win No win Win Win No win 9 points from 9, 2 wins from 9, 6 wins from 18. Its not OK, it's shite. @Super rather than face palming my reply, how about you try and defend this shite record? Instead of constantly using fsce palms and laughing reactions, debate my posts. If you can't, that says it all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said: Problem is George, we're not in those games to win them either! Leeds game for example. We were never even it it to get a point despite losing by just the 1 goal. Prior to Mannings arrival this season we had only lost by a margin of more than 1 on two occasions with one being against Cardiff where we barely had 11 fit players. So is that really a positive? Joe Williams is a difficult one to quantify. It's undeniable that his time here has been hampered by injury and a lot of work has gone in to get him playing regularly. I think we would probably be saying the same output from Joe regardless of the manager because of the work to get him fit. Let's not pretend he's putting in 9s and 10s each week. The Bristol Live article shows we've changed our press and are now worse in the pressing stats as we are more happy to drop into the block rather than press. You mention the team is in the best position it has been for years and I agree. I'm of the opinion that giving him a pre season could destabilise the team because I think it's really scraping the barrel to find any real noticeable positives that have made a difference. Leeds have taken plenty of teams apart so that's complete nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 36 minutes ago, Tim Monaghan said: Agreed, Ipswich are a lot quicker than us moving the ball forward. But I believe that KM is as suited to a slower build up to, he just needs the service. I think that’s my point…how does he get the service that Tommy isn’t? Or are you suggesting we play differently because we have a Moore-type? This is the bit I can’t get my head around. Not your problem…LMs! 7 minutes ago, Tim Monaghan said: Good question, you won't agree with me, but: Defensive Improvement: Manning has emphasized a better defensive solidity IMO. Tactical Adaptation and Maturity: Despite not always converting chances into wins, Manning’s tactical approach has allowed us to dominate play and create more decent opportunities. The team’s maturity in handling challenging situations, as seen in their away performances, bodes well for our future development. Possession-Based Approach: I think we are more composed and thoughtful in possession. I love how Manning is encouraging the team to retain the ball and build up play patiently. This contrasts with more direct approaches seen in the past which sometimes was a bit hit and hope at times. High Press and Intensity: This has been maintained, but I think we actually do a better job under Liam. I'm finding that players engage opponents higher up the pitch. Set Pieces: We are far more dangerous I know you didn't ask for 4. This is where we are seeing cause and effect of Manning-ball. We are slightly more solid defensively because we retreat into a block more readily. But in doing so (setting up so structured without the ball) we are reliant on teams that overcommit (Southampton) to benefit on the counter, when we win it back. Against other structured sides that opportunity isn’t there. And we aren’t creating hardly anything from build-up back to front, against any style team. So whilst we might be more composed in possession, to what gain? That’s the biggest disappointment for me…so far. +++++ We really aren’t creating more decent opportunities. We are creating slightly less chances , and slightly worse chances - a double whammy. Defensively we are conceding slightly less chances and less good ones - the opposite double whammy! +++++ Anyone who doesn’t like data, look away! On Saturday against QPR we had 22 10+ pass sequences and our most “build-up” attacks under LM - 6. Build-up attacks are - 10+ pass sequences that end up with a shot or a touch in the opposition penalty area. We had 0 Direct attacks. Our 9 open play shots throughout the match earned us 0.43 xG (less than 0.05 per shot). 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Just now, W-S-M Seagull said: @Super rather than face palming my reply, how about you try and defend this shite record? Instead of constantly using fsce palms and laughing reactions, debate my posts. If you can't, that says it all. I just laugh at your absolute bollox. Once you stop grieving over Pearson you'll see things differently. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 minute ago, Super said: I just laugh at your absolute bollox. Once you stop grieving over Pearson you'll see things differently. Some of it isn’t absolute bollax though is it? 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 1 minute ago, Davefevs said: Some of it isn’t absolute bollax though is it? Which bits? He's always had an agenda against Manning so his views are blinkered and irrelevant Edited February 22 by Super Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 minute ago, Super said: Leeds have taken plenty of teams apart so that's complete nonsense. Did you watch the game Super? They took us apart. They just didn't have their shooting boots on that day. We didn't even lay a glove on them. They didn't even need to get out of 1st gear. Here you are again trying to downplay something. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Just now, Super said: Which bits? The bits about our attacking play, that our press isn’t as intense, etc. I don’t agree with every bit, but there’s plenty that is well-founded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Even Liam Manning agrees with some of his points….let that sink in! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 5 minutes ago, Super said: I just laugh at your absolute bollox. Once you stop grieving over Pearson you'll see things differently. How am I supposed to see this any differently Super? No win Win No win No win No win No win Win Win Win No win No win No win No win No win No win Win Win No win Why are you mentioning Pearson AGAIN? I think you have a strange obsession with the guy mate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveInSA Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 I’m negative, because we should absolutely and completely be beating QPR. And we should absolutely and completely beaten Norwich at home (the last game I saw in person). There are countless other games we should have done better in, and of course the reverse is also true (we’ve won a couple we should have lost). I want to see a level of arrogance and confidence that we can beat any team in this league. We’ve shown we can do it. But we’re so inconsistent it isn’t even funny. The players need to find a way to win more games. I want to see attacking football with a bit of grit and guile in it. I want to see a bit of commitment and passion and big tackles. I want to be entertained. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said: How am I supposed to see this any differently Super? No win Win No win No win No win No win Win Win Win No win No win No win No win No win No win Win Win No win Why are you mentioning Pearson AGAIN? I think you have a strange obsession with the guy mate. Well for one you think he was doing a fine job yet Manning is doing a shite one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 16 minutes ago, Davefevs said: We really aren’t creating more decent opportunities. We are creating slightly less chances , and slightly worse chances - a double whammy. ? We're going at 4 shots on target per game v 3 under Pearson this season. Raw shots is 0.5 per game higher as well. Raw shots is marginal but shots on target up by 33% is g negligible. Total xG for is ever so slightly more in Pearson's games but it's a difference of 0.02 average per game so not really anything. Manning's I guess includes two penalties whereas Pearson never got penalties so take from that what you will. Average xG per shot under both of them is basically 0.099 per shot. It's nothing to get too excited about but it's also not, in my opinion, something to level against the current set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galley is our king Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 11 minutes ago, Super said: Well for one you think he was doing a fine job yet Manning is doing a shite one. He was doing a fine job considering squad availability ( check the team and squad available v Cardiff and many previous games). With the squad now available and the players that have returned to fitness I would have expected us to be in a much better position than we are now. Thanks for not replying to my post re: lyers. Shame you are quite happy to roll over and have your tummy tickled and happily put up with it. I won't... 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, Better Red said: Pring and Vyner are better. Max Bird will also likely start. Good spot. I also forgot about Vyner out Atkinson in. If all fit and in form it can be a nice problem to have however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 7 minutes ago, Galley is our king said: He was doing a fine job considering squad availability ( check the team and squad available v Cardiff and many previous games). With the squad now available and the players that have returned to fitness I would have expected us to be in a much better position than we are now. Thanks for not replying to my post re: lyers. Shame you are quite happy to roll over and have your tummy tickled and happily put up with it. I won't... No idea what post you are on about 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollsRoyce Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 53 minutes ago, Super said: I just laugh at your absolute bollox. Once you stop grieving over Pearson you'll see things differently. It’s not bollox though . Pearson has gone but you seem as obsessed with him as you claim WSM is . im struggling to understand what it is you think we should be seeing differently , as many are looking to the future now but you keep looking to the past . 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollsRoyce Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 47 minutes ago, Super said: Well for one you think he was doing a fine job yet Manning is doing a shite one. Manning is very average. That has nothing to do with Pearson. You are obsessed with Nige . Nige has gone , finished . Manning is now. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Balls Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 5 hours ago, FNQ said: At half time versus QPR, surely a most exciting managerial appointment should have been able to affect the game more? We weren’t playing Real Madrid. At half time the rest of our entire season was on the line, not that in any way you would have thought so. And I’m not sure that next year will be any more interesting than this one, Burnley, Luton and Sheffield Utd will occupy the top three positions and progressive teams like Hull, Coventry and Sunderland will be in with a shout making up the top 6, we’ll continue to reduce our losses by selling Tommy and JL and BT will still be here spouting the same crap planning for the following season… This is the recurring concern about Manning. He might be a good coach on the training pitch but that doesn’t mean he is necessarily any good at dealing with tactics and substitutions during a game. He’s a novice at this level but he’s not completely inexperienced. Admittedly he didn’t plan for Bell to pull his hamstring midway through the first half, but that still doesn’t explain the lack of impetus in the second half and then making those 3 substitutions just while we were applying some pressure on QPR. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 9 hours ago, Sheltons Army said: For me , I don’t think we can afford to assemble a ready made squad to play that way So , to think of a run at promotion by any means , Manning either needs to prove to be an exceptional ,or at least excellent coach in drilling 11 v 11 on training ground , significantly improving / developing players we can afford , and be very good tactically in game Or We we find a more pragmatic way to win games , probably more Luton than Burnley (I cant see Manning ever considering this) I haven’t looked at any stats and only watched them casually , and Fevs will correct me if I’m wrong , but I don’t see them as possession based at all Id certainly describe their football as front foot , which we certainly are not , for all the spout by Tinnion Ipswich have more possession than opponents generally, but its not high. The teams approach differs through the thirds starkly. Their keeper is very good on the ball, they use a double pivot in a 4 - 2 -3 -1 and build up play in the first third that guarantees possession. This intent alters in the second and last third - They become aggressive looking to play up back and through quickly, quick combinations attempting to penetrate, and play a lot of bounce passes bringing opponents onto them and hitting spaces in behind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 11 minutes ago, RollsRoyce said: It’s not bollox though . Pearson has gone but you seem as obsessed with him as you claim WSM is . im struggling to understand what it is you think we should be seeing differently , as many are looking to the future now but you keep looking to the past . The point is Manning is bring treated very differently to Pearson. Edited February 22 by Super Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 43 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: ? We're going at 4 shots on target per game v 3 under Pearson this season. Raw shots is 0.5 per game higher as well. Raw shots is marginal but shots on target up by 33% is g negligible. Total xG for is ever so slightly more in Pearson's games but it's a difference of 0.02 average per game so not really anything. Manning's I guess includes two penalties whereas Pearson never got penalties so take from that what you will. Average xG per shot under both of them is basically 0.099 per shot. It's nothing to get too excited about but it's also not, in my opinion, something to level against the current set up. You’ll know that my team data I take from Opta which is Non-Pen Shots / Goals….both attack and defence. For some reason I can’t attach my stats summary (some will be relieved)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 7 minutes ago, Cowshed said: Ipswich have more possession than opponents generally, but its not high. The teams approach differs through the thirds starkly. Their keeper is very good on the ball, they use a double pivot in a 4 - 2 -3 -1 and build up play in the first third that guarantees possession. This intent alters in the second and last third - They become aggressive looking to play up back and through quickly, quick combinations attempting to penetrate, and play a lot of bounce passes bringing opponents onto them and hitting spaces in behind. Those “bounce passes” are where they really break forward from settled possession to what almost appears to be a counterattack - but not from a regain. The number of times they play into Chaplin in the middle third, and then he either: rolls his man and then goes quickly wide to Davis (or Burns or Clarke) usually because Broadhead has sucked a player infield is so evident, or he lays off and someone else makes the pass instead, but it’s done quickly. Although you say “guarantees possession” I think they are incredibly brave (trust the process) too. I’m still surprised teams get sucked in, their patterns are so repeatable, albeit superbly executed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollsRoyce Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 minute ago, Super said: The point is Manning is bring treated very differently to Pearson. By whom ? I loved Nige , would never have sacked him . But I’m looking at Manning and I am deeply concerned . Zero to do with Nige. I am looking at Manning and there is more that worries me that convinces me . Why is Manning being treated different ? He has not got a squad of wasters , has no need to reduce the wage bill by a third , or create a £30 M transfer profit . Lucky for him . He has a different scenario and is judged against that . He has a very different challenge . I cannot see his role remotely comparable to Pearson. I have no idea why you keep talking about Pearson . Manning is Manning . Nige is gone . Manning has run this team for more games this season . I am looking at his impact on the squad . I’m not convinced . I wa t to see much better for the last games . 4 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 3 minutes ago, RollsRoyce said: By whom ? I loved Nige , would never have sacked him . But I’m looking at Manning and I am deeply concerned . Zero to do with Nige. I am looking at Manning and there is more that worries me that convinces me . Why is Manning being treated different ? He has not got a squad of wasters , has no need to reduce the wage bill by a third , or create a £30 M transfer profit . Lucky for him . He has a different scenario and is judged against that . He has a very different challenge . I cannot see his role remotely comparable to Pearson. I have no idea why you keep talking about Pearson . Manning is Manning . Nige is gone . Manning has run this team for more games this season . I am looking at his impact on the squad . I’m not convinced . I wa t to see much better for the last games . Squad of wasters is a tad harsh, I think many individually and collectively had run their course, injuries were huge, morale was on the floor. Albeit there were definitely some and it was an almighty task to keep us afloat, steadily improve our baseline and along with Gould steer us clear of FFP sanctions under huge Regulatory constraints (Regulatory constraints I'm not wholly convinced other clubs approaching the 3 year line to this season are under to the same degree). The task now is to build, build on a solid base with a good culture but perhaps a lack of flair or high Championship quality in some areas. Edited February 22 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Geoff Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 16 minutes ago, Super said: The point is Manning is bring treated very differently to Pearson. If Pearsons results had been the same as Mannings have since October I can assure you that you would not see anyone on here giving as much love to him as you're to Manning. 2 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 3 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Those “bounce passes” are where they really break forward from settled possession to what almost appears to be a counterattack - but not from a regain. The number of times they play into Chaplin in the middle third, and then he either: rolls his man and then goes quickly wide to Davis (or Burns or Clarke) usually because Broadhead has sucked a player infield is so evident, or he lays off and someone else makes the pass instead, but it’s done quickly. Although you say “guarantees possession” I think they are incredibly brave (trust the process) too. I’m still surprised teams get sucked in, their patterns are so repeatable, albeit superbly executed. Having a footballing goal keeper gives Ipswich a consistent overload at the back, and he can with ease take part in the patterns of play, he also can pop balls efficiently over the top into team mates. When you have that behind the lines providing balance it makes teams bolder. They can ping it about, and put their foot on it, and their CBs can drive to release. he lays off and someone else makes the pass instead, but it’s done quickly - Up back and through. It appears relentless. If they don't go up, second season may see teams letting them have it. 4-2-4-1 they have quite frequently five players behind the ball, let them have it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 3 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said: Sorry Super but I do not for one minute believe you went into this season expecting us to be mid table and to equal last years total. The vast majority were expecting progression. Once again I think you're moving the goal posts to down play down the shite job Manning has done. Because we have a lot of teams below us to play and Saturday proved Manning does not have a clue how to beat those sides. JL clearly expected progression despite all the kids we giving debuts to. We had a bench packed full of quality “on paper” last Saturday and we were utter shite. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 9 minutes ago, Cowshed said: Having a footballing goal keeper gives Ipswich a consistent overload at the back, and he can with ease take part in the patterns of play, he also can pop balls efficiently over the top into team mates. When you have that behind the lines providing balance it makes teams bolder. They can ping it about, and put their foot on it, and their CBs can drive to release. he lays off and someone else makes the pass instead, but it’s done quickly - Up back and through. It appears relentless. If they don't go up, second season may see teams letting them have it. 4-2-4-1 they have quite frequently five players behind the ball, let them have it. It’s probably the tactic a lot of Lg1 teams used, get behind the ball, but Ipswich’s quality told in a lot of games last season, but they did have a wobble for a spell. Their results against the top 6 were excellent though, think they only lost 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 2 hours ago, Cowshed said: . 4-2-4-1 2 hours ago, Davefevs said: It’s probably the tactic a lot of Lg1 teams used, get behind the ball, but Ipswich’s quality told in a lot of games last season, but they did have a wobble for a spell. Their results against the top 6 were excellent though, think they only lost 1. Looking at my typo that's one way of getting at teams getting behind the ball. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Just now, Cowshed said: Looking at my typo that's one way of getting at teams getting behind the ball. I did wonder whether you were playing the goalie up top, or modern methods now quoted the keeper in formations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 37 minutes ago, Tim Monaghan said: Did you actually read what I wrote? “I think we are more composed and thoughtful in possession. I love how Manning is encouraging the team to retain the ball and build up play patiently. This contrasts with more direct approaches seen in the past which sometimes was a bit hit and hope at times.” Just because you automatically think Sky Sports possession percentages, when you hear the word possession, I get why you think that would sound “bizarre”, so let me help you out. Just because you’re more thoughtful in possession doesn’t mean you have more of it, you’re looking at it really simplistically. You don’t have to have a higher percentage than your opposition to be more effective whilst you have it. Fun fact, depending on what’s happening within the game, I’ll keep it easy, sometimes you’re okay with the opponents having the ball believe it or not. So when people talk about possession, there is so much more to it than simple “we’ve got the ball” longer than you. The fact you think that is bizarre. Tim, have you considered that teams also allow us to have the ball? Knowing that we can't break teams down who sit in a low/med block? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FNQ Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 3 hours ago, Super said: The point is Manning is bring treated very differently to Pearson. By JL certainly.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, FNQ said: By JL certainly.. And BT. In LM's press conference he was asked about the recent sackings in the Championship. He said that BT came down and spoke to him about them. All very matey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garland-sweden Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Its hard to be optimistic when we going down the table and our football is tothless. No speed, creative, pace, seldom wins and so on. Teams know how to play against us, they sit back and dont have to fight for there lifes for 3 points. This is a buisness of result, our way of playing football dont get it. Many games are so boring, ball betwen our players, playing back and then same thing again. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 8 hours ago, Davefevs said: You’ll know that my team data I take from Opta which is Non-Pen Shots / Goals….both attack and defence. For some reason I can’t attach my stats summary (some will be relieved)! Yep. Also, we don't create enough. That is true. We didn't create enough at the start of the season either. It is something that needs fixing if we're going to be a serious top 6 perspect. Shots for should be around 14 or 15, not 11 like it is now. Shots on target needs another increase to 5 rather than 4. That's what you see the big boys put down, and somehow - and I don't know enough abouts tactics and shapes and passing etc to say how - we need to match that. We're not doing it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 6 hours ago, Tim Monaghan said: Did you actually read what I wrote? “I think we are more composed and thoughtful in possession. I love how Manning is encouraging the team to retain the ball and build up play patiently. This contrasts with more direct approaches seen in the past which sometimes was a bit hit and hope at times.” Just because you automatically think Sky Sports possession percentages, when you hear the word possession, I get why you think that would sound “bizarre”, so let me help you out. Just because you’re more thoughtful in possession doesn’t mean you have more of it, you’re looking at it really simplistically. You don’t have to have a higher percentage than your opposition to be more effective whilst you have it. Fun fact, depending on what’s happening within the game, I’ll keep it easy, sometimes you’re okay with the opponents having the ball believe it or not. So when people talk about possession, there is so much more to it than simple “we’ve got the ball” longer than you. The fact you think that is bizarre. I did read what you wrote. You appear to have a “background” as you stated earlier in the thread as a reason as to why you think you’re right - which again, Mr Rider, on a public forum, is again bizarre. Your somewhat uppity response here suggests you don’t like people questioning you as you have that unknown “background”. Tough that in a public forum. So I’ll make it really simple for you. I don’t look at the Sky Sports stats (but thanks). You can love how Liam has us more patient in possession, and I’ll never knock anyone for preferring style A to style B, but that doesn’t mean we’re more patient and thoughtful - we’re actually more slow and ponderous. Our speed of movement, our speed of thought, is less. When we are more instinctive we’re better (and that based on results is a stone cold fact), such as in the Soton game. Take the Cornick goal - that isn’t patient and thoughtful possession. Thats incisive, quick play. Where you are correct is in your fun fact. Sometimes opponents are happy to let you have the ball. And that’s why we are more “patient and thoughtful”. Opponents are letting us have it, because they know when we do play that way, we have been evidenced not to get results. And it’s perfectly fine for you to love that. But it is bizarre. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 7 hours ago, Davefevs said: I did wonder whether you were playing the goalie up top, or modern methods now quoted the keeper in formations! I have seen this refereed to as 4-2-5. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan11 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 11 hours ago, Cowshed said: Having a footballing goal keeper gives Ipswich a consistent overload at the back, and he can with ease take part in the patterns of play, he also can pop balls efficiently over the top into team mates. When you have that behind the lines providing balance it makes teams bolder. They can ping it about, and put their foot on it, and their CBs can drive to release. he lays off and someone else makes the pass instead, but it’s done quickly - Up back and through. It appears relentless. If they don't go up, second season may see teams letting them have it. 4-2-4-1 they have quite frequently five players behind the ball, let them have it. It's quite funny because we sort of stumbled on this by virtue of Walton being injured at the start of the season. Walton is a superior goalkeeper to Hladky in every facet other than with his feet and played all 46 league games in L1 last season. Ipswich fans would have laughed in August if you suggested Walton wouldn't come straight back in. But Hladky has become so important to us now with how most Championship teams look to press us high, and we kind of accept the odd soft goal against or flap from a cross that Walton would have dealt with better. In L1 you couldn't get away with having a keeper that couldn't deal with aerial bombardment. Edited February 23 by Dan11 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 2 hours ago, Tim Monaghan said: Yes, Dave. So you've considered it and have then decided that other teams allowing us to have the ball is a positive for Manning as head coach. Strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said: Yep. Also, we don't create enough. That is true. We didn't create enough at the start of the season either. It is something that needs fixing if we're going to be a serious top 6 perspect. Shots for should be around 14 or 15, not 11 like it is now. Shots on target needs another increase to 5 rather than 4. That's what you see the big boys put down, and somehow - and I don't know enough abouts tactics and shapes and passing etc to say how - we need to match that. We're not doing it now. Will DM you, can’t seem to copy and paste pics at the mo’ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorenzos Only Goal Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 I think overtime we will see less of Pearsons influence on the team which I think is a bad thing because we've spent a long time pivoting the team in that direction. I think Manning in my opinion needs to grow as a manager at this level, he doesn't have all the answers yet. And then we will need pivot the team again to suit a different style of play. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said: Also, we don't create enough. That is true. We didn't create enough at the start of the season either. It is something that needs fixing if we're going to be a serious top 6 perspect. We're not doing it now. I’m sure Manning and Hogg are aware of that fact. Taking a simplistic view - we don’t have enough creative midfielders.TGH is more creative than James, Williams but but he doesn’t start every game. Nor do we have a powerful CF to occupy and bully defenders. The number of times City have go into decent crossing positions only to have limited options - very frustrating to watch. I’ve pretty much written off the season already and unless City go on an unlikely run of wins, mid table obscurity is the best we can hope for. Hopefully Manning will be addressing the squad deficiencies in the summer window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeRed Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 15 minutes ago, Robbored said: Hopefully Manning will be addressing the squad deficiencies in the summer window. Tinnion is already on it and has said he's looking for a striker with the following attributes: *A big strong No 9 who can bully defenders *Quick enough to run in behind *Able to run and press all game *A player with a proven goals and assist record *Under 23 but with 150 - 200 game experience *Available for a modest fee and wage. *Able to improve and further develop sufficiently to be sold to Bournemouth within 2 years for >£15M Should be quite easy to find , Trust Me on Tinnion 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, CodeRed said: Tinnion is already on it and has said he's looking for a striker with the following attributes: *A big strong No 9 who can bully defenders *Quick enough to run in behind *Able to run and press all game *A player with a proven goals and assist record *Under 23 but with 150 - 200 game experience *Available for a modest fee and wage. *Able to improve and further develop sufficiently to be sold to Bournemouth within 2 years for >£15M Should be quite easy to find , Trust Me on Tinnion Haaland then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeRed Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said: Haaland then Only if we can buy him for £2M and pay him 10 grand a week. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said: Haaland then No sure City can afford his £800k pw wages……. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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