Joe Williams

[BCFCOFSWEDEN]

Have we offered him a new contract?

If not, do it fast!

[Steve Watts]

No.

And too bloody right.  Should be an absolute top priority.  For me, currently player of the season by a country mile.

Edit: To clarify, I was responding to both your points, not saying it was too bloody right that we hadn't offered him a contract!!!

Edited February 8 by Steve Watts

[Cityboy1954]

4 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

No.

And too bloody right.  Should be an absolute top priority.  For me, currently player of the season by a country mile.

Edit: To clarify, I was responding to both your points, not saying it was too bloody right that we hadn't offered him a contract!!!

The experienced one to keep with the young ones next year get rid of the others .

[Steve Watts]

I'd be adding Andy King to that list but have accepted the fact that we won't.  Mr dependable whenever called upon and experience in droves.

[Davefevs]

I think Joe has been playing well all season, although for some perhaps it’s been noticeable under LM.  Had an injury (calf)neither side of the manager change, but I think he gives us something different, and is in his peak years.

I think he’s proved he’s over the hamstring injuries and would give good balance to the rest of the midfield next season…which will be a young central-midfield.

Williams (27 at start of season)

Knight (22)

Gardner-Hickman (22)

Bird (23)

Murphy (19)

+++++

Benarous (21)

Taylor-Clarke (20)

Backwell (21)

+++++

not included Stokes as I don’t see him playing any deeper roles, expect Kadji, James and King to be released, nor the wide midfielders.

But the 5 above is a good core imho.

[RedRoss]

The thinking at the start of this season would have been to not renew.

Now it's intirely a different story. Think he's got back to his Wigan form days. He's been brilliant.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

The thinking at the start of this season would have been to not renew.

Now it's intirely a different story. Think he's got back to his Wigan form days. He's been brilliant.

Imagine going into the summer knowing midfield is sorted. That would be really good.

[Tony Tootle]

I don't think he is that bothered about staying here TBH and will have offers from other clubs up North.

[RedRoss]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Imagine going into the summer knowing midfield is sorted. That would be really good.

Yeah not sure we've been in that position for a while now. We've had decent players but we'll have the strength in depth you've mentioned. To cover inevitable injuries, suspensions, form ect.

Across the board asides from the elusive striker position. Although it's an annoyance to look to next season already I do think we've got a good squad going forward.

[Redrascal2]

He is adding the bite to midfield which we have lacked for a long time. Really hope he stays. It would be madness to lose him now. But this is Bristol City and if they can leave us without any goal scoring strikers then they are more than capable of cocking this up.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, RedRoss said:

Yeah not sure we've been in that position for a while now. We've had decent players but we'll have the strength in depth you've mentioned. To cover inevitable injuries, suspensions, form ect.

Across the board asides from the elusive striker position. Although it's an annoyance to look to next season already I do think we've got a good squad going forward.

I know many will say “he’s one of our top earners, he’ll have to take a cut”, and I tend to agree, but in some respects you can treat him like a free transfer / academy player, virtually all of his fee amortisation is now sunk.  So if you have to pay a little more than his going rate, the fact you aren’t having to sign a new player makes it cheaper in the long run.

He’s been putting up good numbers all season.

[Clevedon Red]

5 minutes ago, Tony Tootle said:

I don't think he is that bothered about staying here TBH and will have offers from other clubs up North.

How do you deduce that?

[RedRoss]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I know many will say “he’s one of our top earners, he’ll have to take a cut”, and I tend to agree, but in some respects you can treat him like a free transfer / academy player, virtually all of his fee amortisation is now sunk.  So if you have to pay a little more than his going rate, the fact you aren’t having to sign a new player makes it cheaper in the long run.

He’s been putting up good numbers all season.

In fairness, I've been saying that too but each and every game he's played I've been more and more  convinced we've got to retain him. Especially if we're losing James and King.

I think Tinnion eluded to this in his RB interview. He said they are playing for their contracts and didn't sound convicing but picked Williams out specifically re the form he's in.

 

 

[LondonBristolian]

For me, beyond Williams' form, the big thing is trying to minimise the non-essential transfer business over the summer so we can focus on getting in an attacking midfielder and key striker, especially if the belief is we'll be losing Conway. Keeping Williams enables us to know our budget and focus it where needed. Even in terms of his wage, paying him a little more might avoid paying a transfer fee for someone else. 

[95red]

3 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

In fairness, I've been saying that too but each and every game he's played I've been more and more  convinced we've got to retain him. Especially if we're losing James and King.

I think Tinnion eluded to this in his RB interview. He said they are playing for their contracts and didn't sound convicing but picked Williams out specifically re the form he's in.

 

 

He ain't just become  a great player  always  have just been  unlucky  with injuries . Cost alot of money  to replace  his quality  

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

In fairness, I've been saying that too but each and every game he's played I've been more and more  convinced we've got to retain him. Especially if we're losing James and King.

I think Tinnion eluded to this in his RB interview. He said they are playing for their contracts and didn't sound convicing but picked Williams out specifically re the form he's in.

 

 

Yes, I suspect that if you’re like me, you’ve been waiting to see if there’s been a drop off (nope) or injury reoccurrence (nope) before committing your view.

[JP Hampton]

8 minutes ago, 95red said:

He ain't just become  a great player  always  have just been  unlucky  with injuries . Cost alot of money  to replace  his quality  

You’re right my OH and I have just been waiting for him to get back to what we saw early on. You can’t ask for more passion either while we’re at it. 

30 minutes ago, Tony Tootle said:

I don't think he is that bothered about staying here TBH and will have offers from other clubs up North.

What makes you think that?

[Shauntaylor85]

Tinnion has liked a post from another fan on X who asked him to sign up Williams to a new deal. 

[1960maaan]

It wasn't just an injury, it was getting injured after an injury and breaking down during come backs, must have absolutely smashed his confidence in his own body.
I think we ( him and us ) are reaping the benefit  of him being totally confident those problems are gone, or at least he can trust himself to be up to playing game after game. I think we are seeing the player we thought we had signed in the beginning . The only slight difference could be his mind, he's had a lot of time to think about things over the last few years and is starting to lead on the pitch. He looks a complete midfielder , goals apart maybe , he has just about everything . 
I really hope he stays. 

[Harry]

6 months ago I’d have happily said no extension. 
But to be fair, he’s really proving himself and for me he does now deserve a new deal. 
 

Question is, on what terms? 
 

As alluded to above, Joe is likely one of our highest earners. And if we take his total contract over his 4 years here so far, he’s not really given us value for money. 
It wouldn’t be unreasonable to suggest that he’s been earning around £1m per year over the last 4 years. Add the fee and we’re talking around £5m total. 
And we’ve only really seen any value from that in the last 4 months or so. 
So we’ve seen a fair amount of money down the drain, but of course through no fault of his own. 
 

I would imagine (well in fact I had actually heard it confirmed) that we will offer him a deal on reduced salary. 
I guess it depends how much we’ve reduced it. And he will of course be free to talk to other clubs to see if they can offer him anything better. 

I’d say it’s fair and reasonable for us to offer reduced terms. Whilst he may currently deserve at least the same as he’s on now, I’d be offsetting that against his 2.5 years of being unavailable, so reduced terms is fair, in my opinion (to re-accrue some of that lost money). 
 

But. Let’s say we offer him 3 years at his current rate. That’ll be £3m. 
Are there other players who we could bring in at half the salary and circa £1.5m fee? Maybe. 
But if none of those are available at that price and wage then I’d have no qualms in Joe sticking around. 

Edited February 8 by Harry

[Mr Popodopolous]

What was the fee in the end, somewhere between £1-2m iirc?

You can knock that amortisation off for a start with any new deal, that alone is a (non-cash) saving.

[Malago]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I think Joe has been playing well all season, although for some perhaps it’s been noticeable under LM.  Had an injury (calf)neither side of the manager change, but I think he gives us something different, and is in his peak years.

I think he’s proved he’s over the hamstring injuries and would give good balance to the rest of the midfield next season…which will be a young central-midfield.

Williams (27 at start of season)

Knight (22)

Gardner-Hickman (22)

Bird (23)

Murphy (19)

+++++

Benarous (21)

Taylor-Clarke (20)

Backwell (21)

+++++

not included Stokes as I don’t see him playing any deeper roles, expect Kadji, James and King to be released, nor the wide midfielders.

But the 5 above is a good core imho.

You writing off James staying Dave?

[Harry]

15 minutes ago, Malago said:

You writing off James staying Dave?

James won’t be staying. 
One reason for disagreement between Nige and “the club” was that Nige was pushing for James to stay but “the club” didn’t agree. 
I can’t see “the club” changing their mind even if Manning wants him to stay. 
Simply because his salary is too high and we won’t pay that level any more. 

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, Harry said:

6 months ago I’d have happily said no extension. 
But to be fair, he’s really proving himself and for me he does now deserve a new deal. 
 

Question is, on what terms? 
 

As alluded to above, Joe is likely one of our highest earners. And if we take his total contract over his 4 years here so far, he’s not really given us value for money. 
It wouldn’t be unreasonable to suggest that he’s been earning around £1m per year over the last 4 years. Add the fee and we’re talking around £5m total. 
And we’ve only really seen any value from that in the last 4 months or so. 
So we’ve seen a fair amount of money down the drain, but of course through no fault of his own. 
 

I would imagine (well in fact I had actually heard it confirmed) that we will offer him a deal on reduced salary. 
I guess it depends how much we’ve reduced it. And he will of course be free to talk to other clubs to see if they can offer him anything better. 

I’d say it’s fair and reasonable for us to offer reduced terms. Whilst he may currently deserve at least the same as he’s on now, I’d be offsetting that against his 2.5 years of being unavailable, so reduced terms is fair, in my opinion (to re-accrue some of that lost money). 
 

But. Let’s say we offer him 3 years at his current rate. That’ll be £3m. 
Are there other players who we could bring in at half the salary and circa £1.5m fee? Maybe. 
But if none of those are available at that price and wage then I’d have no qualms in Joe sticking around. 

To some extent you have to forget what has happened in the past 3.5 (will be 4) years.  That money is sunk.  My guess is that Williams is on £15-18k p.w at the mo, but that’s kinda irrelevant come July 1st.

But the bit in bold is key.

As you say, we now have to think about replacing him, and the cost of that.  I’m assuming Bird is one piece in the James, Williams, King replacement jigsaw, so we need one more….one of which could be retain Williams.

Can we get someone in as good / better for what you're gonna outlay on Williams - let’s say over the next 2 / 3 years?  There is of course the thinking of the alternative player you bring in might have future value too.  So lots of things to consider.

For me he’s different to what we have (inc Bird) too, and that’s quite apppealing in what is likely to continue to be a young side.

22 minutes ago, Malago said:

You writing off James staying Dave?

Yes.  Don’t think he’ll be retained.

[RedRaw]

1 hour ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Tinnion has liked a post from another fan on X who asked him to sign up Williams to a new deal. 

What the “I’m off X” tinnion? 

[RedEyez]

Absolutely has to be kept around as the experienced head. Plus the boy can really play. 

[A Horse With No Name]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think Joe has been playing well all season, although for some perhaps it’s been noticeable under LM.  Had an injury (calf)neither side of the manager change, but I think he gives us something different, and is in his peak years.

I think he’s proved he’s over the hamstring injuries and would give good balance to the rest of the midfield next season…which will be a young central-midfield.

Williams (27 at start of season)

Knight (22)

Gardner-Hickman (22)

Bird (23)

Murphy (19)

+++++

Benarous (21)

Taylor-Clarke (20)

Backwell (21)

+++++

not included Stokes as I don’t see him playing any deeper roles, expect Kadji, James and King to be released, nor the wide midfielders.

But the 5 above is a good core imho.

Do you see Naismith as primarily a centre back?

[Merrick's Marvels]

10 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Do you see Naismith as primarily a centre back?

Personally, I think that should be "Do you see Naismith as primarily irrelevant?".

And I'd make it rhetorical.

[Curr Avon]

3 hours ago, BCFCOFSWEDEN said:

Have we offered him a new contract?

If not, do it fast!

Yes, and we've sent it by the same courier service we used for re-signing Liam Rosenior in 2003, Manwivnovan.

[Curr Avon]

6 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Personally, I think that should be "Do you see Naismith as primarily irrelevant?".

And I'd make it rhetorical.

No. It should be:

"Do you see Naismith?"

"No."

"Now try with your right eye."

Edited February 8 by Curr Avon

[Mihai]

Guys ? There are players earning more than 1 mil. pounds per year at City ?  If that so, Romanian football is cursed, Championship is the second league and we can't even match half of that for more than a few players and only at top teams,  and we are City not Southampton/Leicester because other teams which pay even more for sure... WAAAT is going wrong with football,  every player will loose his passion after a few years earning that much money. Most of them will see only the financial benefit and that will make this sport even more tactical than is already.

[steviestevieneville]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think Joe has been playing well all season, although for some perhaps it’s been noticeable under LM.  Had an injury (calf)neither side of the manager change, but I think he gives us something different, and is in his peak years.

I think he’s proved he’s over the hamstring injuries and would give good balance to the rest of the midfield next season…which will be a young central-midfield.

Williams (27 at start of season)

Knight (22)

Gardner-Hickman (22)

Bird (23)

Murphy (19)

+++++

Benarous (21)

Taylor-Clarke (20)

Backwell (21)

+++++

not included Stokes as I don’t see him playing any deeper roles, expect Kadji, James and King to be released, nor the wide midfielders.

But the 5 above is a good core imho.

It’s starting to be a worry for me. King & James have been brilliant in forging a strong dressing room , along with wells & wiemann . It looks as though at least three of them won’t be with us next season & I can see manning trying to move Nahki on as well. That’s a lot of good experienced pros out the door. I think it’s really important to keep Joe here. Not just because he’s a quality player , but he’ll be a senior player in the squad. We can’t lose all that experience at once imo . 

[Tony Tootle]

2 hours ago, Clevedon Red said:

How do you deduce that?

2 hours ago, JP Hampton said:

What makes you think that?

I just think he will leave. I don’t want him to but he’ll definitely have offers from elsewhere and I can see him moving back closer to the north west

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

James won’t be staying. 
One reason for disagreement between Nige and “the club” was that Nige was pushing for James to stay but “the club” didn’t agree. 
I can’t see “the club” changing their mind even if Manning wants him to stay. 
Simply because his salary is too high and we won’t pay that level any more. 

I don't doubt you're right.

But this assumes James wants to sign on again for the same wage.

Have "the club" bothered to find out if there's a reduced wage he'd be prepared to sign on again for?

I'd bet not.

55 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 I’m assuming Bird is one piece in the James, Williams, King replacement jigsaw, so we need one more….one of which could be retain Williams.

Can we get someone in as good / better for what you're gonna outlay on Williams - let’s say over the next 2 / 3 years?

I'm not sure the criteria for new signings is "can we get someone in as good / better".

It seems to be younger / cheaper!

If our midfield loses King / James / Williams at the end of the season and we've replaced them for next season with TGH / Bird / Murphy then, imo, that's not increasing our quality but it has reduced age profile / wages.

My worry, going forward, is too much emphasis is put on signing young technical players and the team will lack both experience and a physical edge. For that reason, I'd be tempted to make Williams a good offer to stay, although in the back of our minds I'm sure we'd all worry about giving a new contract to a bloke who's suddenly found some form in the last few months of his contract.

Tinnion made a mess of his first opportunity to shape our squad to his liking, in the summer of 2005. I've a bad feeling he hasn't learnt much in the meantime.

[JP Hampton]

6 minutes ago, Tony Tootle said:

I just think he will leave. I don’t want him to but he’ll definitely have offers from elsewhere and I can see him moving back closer to the north west

I don't think he is that bothered about staying here TBH and will have offers from other clubs up North.

 It’s this part of your comment I was referring to?

[onlyotib]

25 minutes ago, Mihai said:

Guys ? There are players earning more than 1 mil. pounds per year at City ?  If that so, Romanian football is cursed, Championship is the second league and we can't even match half of that for more than a few players and only at top teams,  and we are City not Southampton/Leicester because other teams which pay even more for sure... WAAAT is going wrong with football,  every player will loose his passion after a few years earning that much money. Most of them will see only the financial benefit and that will make this sport even more tactical than is already.

If you think it’s bad now you should have seen what it was like before COVID. Times are changing for the best

[redkev]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Imagine going into the summer knowing midfield is sorted. That would be really good.

No doubt with our injury record that would be scuppered after 2 or 3 preseason friendlies 

[redkev]

7 minutes ago, JP Hampton said:

I don't think he is that bothered about staying here TBH and will have offers from other clubs up North.

 It’s this part of your comment I was referring to?

From what I have been told he is very happy in Bristol ( just what I’ve been told ) but agree northerners do like to go back up north 

[Mihai]

1 minute ago, onlyotib said:

If you think it’s bad now you should have seen what it was like before COVID. Times are changing for the best

I don't say is a bad thing. I want City to be competitive and to afford good salaries for good players, but my point was different. If a team wants to be succesfull is barely manageable without parachute payments. In the past it was not 100% the same. Poor contries can't keep they players at all I mean not only the poor but even a team from a rich country which is not in the top 5 nations can't keep their players. The European competitions are usually won only by teams from England, Germany, Spain, Italy, France ( and only the top teams stand a chance). In the good old days like 90's we saw some teams like Ajax, OM, Dortmund, Red Star Belgrade even my Romanian team in 86. They could win Uefa Champions League and now the last two Eastern European teams can't even play in the Group Stages of UCL. 

When you think Championship is a second tier league ( i know, probably better than a lot of first leagues in other countries, even League One is probably above let's say Bulgarian football ), and you see salaries of 70k per week, you start asking yourself if a "second world country" can stand in the next 100 years against teams from England.  But we had in Romania, Astra Giurgiu which humilated West Ham two times knocking them out of UEL, but inconsistent it was just a game like in some shock of FA CUP.

I am not trying to be negative but even for teams like our it becomes impossible to be competitive. We can't attract the best players because others are having toooo much money, more than it should be allowed in my opinion. And the teams comming from PL are always having the best chance, they still have players on parachute payments and we have to work with our academy or regular players.

[JP Hampton]

6 minutes ago, redkev said:

From what I have been told he is very happy in Bristol ( just what I’ve been told ) but agree northerners do like to go back up north 

Well that’s different to not “being bothered” about staying, it just seemed an odd thing to say unless one knows it for a fact. 

[Ashton Fete]

There’s so many variables in play I guess we’ll find out in time, ultimately they’re self employed in the conventional sense and will go where best fits personally and financially depending what’s on offer and so much goes on we’ll never know (always fun to speculate tho!)

However, if he wants to stay it’s a no brainer for me, it will cost money to replace him and then wages on top so fingers crossed he stays

A Joe Williams like last night could be captain next season he leads by example so much and dominated the midfield…all qualities other clubs want as well so round we go again

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Do you see Naismith as primarily a centre back?

Yes.

18 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I don't doubt you're right.

But this assumes James wants to sign on again for the same wage.

Have "the club" bothered to find out if there's a reduced wage he'd be prepared to sign on again for?

I'd bet not.

It’s not all about wages though is it?  The club might think his performances are degrading / will degrade or that he’s not suited to how we want to play.  Personally, his performance levels are still absolutely fine, but when do they start to drop off?  I dunno, but that will be part of the equation.

I'm not sure the criteria for new signings is "can we get someone in as good / better".

It seems to be younger / cheaper!

Doesn’t mean worse though does it?  Knight, Sykes, Atkinson, etc were all younger.  Dickie wasn’t.  So I’m not sure I agree tbh.  Recruitment has improved.  Don’t judge on Stokes and Murphy, those are different profile signings to Bird for example, and Twine (or whoever we go for if we don’t get him).

If our midfield loses King / James / Williams at the end of the season and we've replaced them for next season with TGH / Bird / Murphy then, imo, that's not increasing our quality but it has reduced age profile / wages.

You, like me, will have to wait and see how next season’s midfield functions. Who knows if it will be better or not?

My worry, going forward, is too much emphasis is put on signing young technical players and the team will lack both experience and a physical edge. For that reason, I'd be tempted to make Williams a good offer to stay, although in the back of our minds I'm sure we'd all worry about giving a new contract to a bloke who's suddenly found some form in the last few months of his contract.

So do I.

So would I.

But that’s not to say that if we don’t re contract Williams we will be worse off though.

Tinnion made a mess of his first opportunity to shape our squad to his liking, in the summer of 2005. I've a bad feeling he hasn't learnt much in the meantime.

Then don’t rely on “bad feelings”, judge on what happens.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Ashton Fete said:

A Joe Williams like last night could be captain next season he leads by example so much and dominated the midfield…all qualities other clubs want as well so round we go again

When he signed I saw him as captain material.

[BLRed]

Not for me. Hasn’t done enough in his whole time playing here. Funny his performances start improving when playing for a new contract…. Too often we have fallen foul to that only to be hamstrung by having a player on a long contract we don’t want and can’t move on.

with TGH, knight, bird, stokes and Murphy, along with possibly Benarous and twine, we have enough cover to move Williams on along with king and James.

Our fan base are far too easily won over by short term performance. Perfect case in point would be the amount of players suggested we purchase having seen one half decent cup performance on tv!

williams is injury prone, is on a decent contract and has been missing for 65-70% of his time here, whether that be due to injury, suspension or just not performing to an appropriate level

[Shauntaylor85]

4 minutes ago, BLRed said:

Not for me. Hasn’t done enough in his whole time playing here. Funny his performances start improving when playing for a new contract…. Too often we have fallen foul to that only to be hamstrung by having a player on a long contract we don’t want and can’t move on.

with TGH, knight, bird, stokes and Murphy, along with possibly Benarous and twine, we have enough cover to move Williams on along with king and James.

Our fan base are far too easily won over by short term performance. Perfect case in point would be the amount of players suggested we purchase having seen one half decent cup performance on tv!

williams is injury prone, is on a decent contract and has been missing for 65-70% of his time here, whether that be due to injury, suspension or just not performing to an appropriate level

I agree with this. Far too inconsistent, offers little in way of assists and goals too. Set piece delivery poor, I agree has much improved but is he worth the wages? Not so sure  

 

[JP Hampton]

17 minutes ago, BLRed said:

Not for me. Hasn’t done enough in his whole time playing here. Funny his performances start improving when playing for a new contract…. Too often we have fallen foul to that only to be hamstrung by having a player on a long contract we don’t want and can’t move on.

with TGH, knight, bird, stokes and Murphy, along with possibly Benarous and twine, we have enough cover to move Williams on along with king and James.

Our fan base are far too easily won over by short term performance. Perfect case in point would be the amount of players suggested we purchase having seen one half decent cup performance on tv!

williams is injury prone, is on a decent contract and has been missing for 65-70% of his time here, whether that be due to injury, suspension or just not performing to an appropriate level

I can see why people could hold that idea and each to his own,  but actually if you take what you wrote (in bold) he’s had a lot of injuries so he can’t play, so can’t be judged through that time, suspension again can’t play, so that leaves us with not performing to an appropriate level. 

  I think most if not every player who returns from injury takes a lot of time to get back to an “appropriate level” some never do. This is possibly one of his longest spells, he’s getting more game time, doing well and that increases confidence. Success breeds success. Not saying he’s not also playing for his contract,(why wouldn’t he) but I don’t put this recent run of play, simply down to that. 

Edited February 8 by JP Hampton

[FNQ]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think Joe has been playing well all season, although for some perhaps it’s been noticeable under LM.  Had an injury (calf)neither side of the manager change, but I think he gives us something different, and is in his peak years.

I think he’s proved he’s over the hamstring injuries and would give good balance to the rest of the midfield next season…which will be a young central-midfield.

Williams (27 at start of season)

Knight (22)

Gardner-Hickman (22)

Bird (23)

Murphy (19)

+++++

Benarous (21)

Taylor-Clarke (20)

Backwell (21)

+++++

not included Stokes as I don’t see him playing any deeper roles, expect Kadji, James and King to be released, nor the wide midfielders.

But the 5 above is a good core imho.

In addition, didn’t I read somewhere that Tinnion said that if Twine is not here next season then we would be seeking a Twine type replacement?

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, FNQ said:

In addition, didn’t I read somewhere that Tinnion said that if Twine is not here next season then we would be seeking a Twine type replacement?

As per Stokes (above), not deemed a CM in my books, nor in the eyes of recruitment…Twine is a 10.  I’m just referring to CMs.

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Yes.

It’s not all about wages though is it?  The club might think his performances are degrading / will degrade or that he’s not suited to how we want to play.  Personally, his performance levels are still absolutely fine, but when do they start to drop off?  I dunno, but that will be part of the equation.

"Degrade"? You make him sound like he's 103  He can't run anyway and his touch, passing, nouse and experience won't degrade. And the leadership qualities he brings to a naive, green, wet behind the ears squad are invaluable. Much like King. All of which you know!  

Doesn’t mean worse though does it?  Knight, Sykes, Atkinson, etc were all younger.  Dickie wasn’t.  So I’m not sure I agree tbh.  Recruitment has improved.  Don’t judge on Stokes and Murphy, those are different profile signings to Bird for example, and Twine (or whoever we go for if we don’t get him).

You've moved the goalposts! I'm not talking about Knight, Sykes, Atkinson, Dickie - they're already here. I specifically said - replacing midfielders King, James and Williams with TGH, Bird and Murphy which is what is likely to happen, is unlikely to improve our quality next season. Unless, of course, we're being asked to wait and see what happens in 2,3,4 years... jam tomorrow.... blah, blah, blah

You, like me, will have to wait and see how next season’s midfield functions. Who knows if it will be better or not?

We will and my opinion is - replacing King, James and Williams with TGH, Bird and Murphy puts the emphasis too much on tippy tappy technical ability and not enough on the harsh realities of Sat-Tues-Sat football which requires, above all, physicality. Without physicality - all over the pitch - we won't be better. That's a dead cert, in this division

Then don’t rely on “bad feelings”, judge on what happens.

Not everyone relies on data and graphs to form an opinion  I'm happy with my "feelings" on this one - i.e. I'm not betting on Brian Tinnion - a failed manager and someone who since then has been employed by no-one except Steve Lansdown (again!) - to know what a promotion winning Championship team looks like. 

Rather, I'll bet he talks a good game but he won't deliver. Fancy a wager?  

Edited February 8 by Merrick's Marvels

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

It’s not all about wages though is it?  The club might think his performances are degrading / will degrade or that he’s not suited to how we want to play.  Personally, his performance levels are still absolutely fine, but when do they start to drop off?  I dunno, but that will be part of the equation.

"Degrade"? You make him sound like he's 103  He can't run anyway and his touch, passing, nouse and experience won't degrade. And the leadership qualities he brings to a naive, green, wet behind the ears squad are invaluable. Much like King. All of which you know!  

Doesn’t mean worse though does it?  Knight, Sykes, Atkinson, etc were all younger.  Dickie wasn’t.  So I’m not sure I agree tbh.  Recruitment has improved.  Don’t judge on Stokes and Murphy, those are different profile signings to Bird for example, and Twine (or whoever we go for if we don’t get him).

You've moved the goalposts! I'm not talking about Knight, Sykes, Atkinson, Dickie - they're already here. I specifically said - replacing midfielders King, James and Williams with TGH, Bird and Murphy which is what is likely to happen, is unlikely to improve our quality next season. Unless, of course, we're being asked to wait and see what happens in 2,3,4 years... jam tomorrow.... blah, blah, blah

You, like me, will have to wait and see how next season’s midfield functions. Who knows if it will be better or not?

We will and my opinion is - replacing King, James and Williams with TGH, Bird and Murphy puts the emphasis too much on tippy tappy technical ability and not enough on the harsh realities of Sat-Tues-Sat football which requires, above all, physicality. 

Then don’t rely on “bad feelings”, judge on what happens.

Not everyone relies on data and graphs to form an opinion  I'm happy with my "feelings" on this one - i.e. I'm not betting on Brian Tinnion - a failed manager and someone who since then has been employed by no-one except Steve Lansdown (again!) - to know what a promotion winning Championship team looks like. 

Rather, I'll bet he talks a good game but he won't deliver. Fancy a wager?  

All I’m trying to say with Jamo is the club might think differently or consider different things to you or I.  I thought he had a fantastic game against PL West Ham.  So I don’t think he’s “degraded”…yet.  But he will at some point.  The good things about Matty James is he’s never been quick, he doesn’t need to be, he’s all about positioning himself and that he’s not had a heavy career in terms of appearances.  Ok, that’s in part down to injury, but I sense he still has the desire to play plenty more yet.

Re replacing King, James and Williams, I think there will be one more to go alongside TGH, Bird and Murphy (who I think is long term anyway).  That could be Williams staying, it could be another addition.  I don’t see why that has to be weaker / seen to be weaker.  For example if it’s Bird, TGH, Murphy + Williams, does that feel weaker?

On physicality, that’s where if we do let Williams go, we need to think about the balance.  You’re right, we can’t have all tippy tappy, but I don’t see TGH as that per se anyway.  And of course that can be supplemented elsewhere in the “team”.  We will see LM and TMs team-building tested this summer.  If we look at recruitment is isolation it’s been good, but the key is to find players that make the team better.

+++++

FWIW, I don’t rely on data and graphs to form opinions either…they are just a visual aid that support (most of the time) what I see in players.  What I was suggesting was “watching” first rather than going on “gut feel”.

[RollsRoyce]

Playing for a new contract somewhere. He has been great these last months but you cannot forget the past . He has not been on a million . 

[YorkshireSection]

5 hours ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Tinnion has liked a post from another fan on X who asked him to sign up Williams to a new deal. 

Im sure Crayola will manage to intervene and uff it up.

[fgrsimon]

If he gets through the rest of the season without injury then for me he has to stay. Otherwise too much of a risk.

[alexukhc]

2 years + 1 for me

[RedEyez]

44 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

2 years + 1 for me

I’d rather we gave it to Williams

[ExiledAjax]

13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

When he signed I saw him as captain material.

Honestly I'd say he's a touch hotheaded to be captain. A vice-captain or lieutenant . Yes absolutely but seeing how he sometimes gets riled up and "sticks one in" on someone, then gets all Scouse gobby with the ref...not the guy to wear the armband for me.

To clarify - I love him, I love that we have at least one annoying, gobby little toerag on the pitch, but I'd not trust him to have the calm composure that is occasionally required of the captain.

[Riaz]

Sign him on!

[The Coach]

Somewhat fearful we are losing players not just with the experience. But the personalities and characters who are driven and want to be successful.

I do fear we will go back to onboarding players who are “quiet and nice lads” but don’t have the fight and drive to want to push on. Ie the O’Dowda’s and Patterson’s etc.

[alexukhc]

24 minutes ago, RedEyez said:

I’d rather we gave it to Williams

I’ll take a month with what he’s on, maybe a week will be enough

[petehinton]

5 minutes ago, The Coach said:

Somewhat fearful we are losing players not just with the experience. But the personalities and characters who are driven and want to be successful.

I do fear we will go back to onboarding players who are “quiet and nice lads” but don’t have the fight and drive to want to push on. Ie the O’Dowda’s and Patterson’s etc.

I think this is where I’m at too. 
 

King, James, Weimann, Williams all going are huge leaders and personalities in the dressing room.
 

On yesterday’s Stick to Football, Neville & Keane made a huge point about how important it was for them to have senior successful pros to look up to, who they could aspire to try to replicate. Even put United’s recent downfall to having none of those characters over the last 10 years. 
 

If they are all to go, of which Weimann King & James are basically guaranteed to be off - that leaves Wells, Naismith and Cornick as the most senior experienced pros….

 

It’s a hell of a risk. 
 

Sunderland have an extremely young squad, but that was built with again some sprinklings of older quality, and ultimately just having extremely talented young players, more so than us. 
 

We all already knew we had a small squad, so I personally don’t see how recruiting Bird & the two young lads in cm (tbc on if they’d even be first team starters next season anyway), but letting 2 potentially 3 CMs go, strengthens us in any way possible.
 

Would require further CM shopping, as well as more than likely spending a decent chunk of cash on a new striker, and either doing the same for a GK or continue being weak in that department too. 
 

Over to Tinns, I guess!

[RedRoss]

The talk about losing characters and experience is overlooking likely due to their age. The experience/characters we'll have with just Knight and Bird.

This Derby interview with them both at 150 appearances each a year ago shows this:

 

[Simon bristol]

14 hours ago, BLRed said:

Not for me. Hasn’t done enough in his whole time playing here. Funny his performances start improving when playing for a new contract…. Too often we have fallen foul to that only to be hamstrung by having a player on a long contract we don’t want and can’t move on.

with TGH, knight, bird, stokes and Murphy, along with possibly Benarous and twine, we have enough cover to move Williams on along with king and James.

Our fan base are far too easily won over by short term performance. Perfect case in point would be the amount of players suggested we purchase having seen one half decent cup performance on tv!

williams is injury prone, is on a decent contract and has been missing for 65-70% of his time here, whether that be due to injury, suspension or just not performing to an appropriate level

Have to agree,,, though if he can maintain this level til the end of the season id maybe consider a 1+1 just in case the injuries start again. Apart from the last 2 months, he just has hasnt been worth the transfer fee and wages.

[Davefevs]

46 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

The talk about losing characters and experience is overlooking likely due to their age. The experience/characters we'll have with just Knight and Bird.

This Derby interview with them both at 150 appearances each a year ago shows this:

 

And we know Knight is a “standards setter” too.

[RedRoss]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And we know Knight is a “standards setter” too.

For both of them to reach that many appearances already, both to captain Derby at times and Knight to represent his country 24 caps and captain us already should say everything.

[GrahamC]

I think what this season has shown is trying to run with the smallest senior squad in the division doesn’t work.

With King clearly on his way (& his effectiveness as a squad option likely to decrease) then keeping one of Williams or James makes a lot of sense.

Relying on Murphy or Stokes to make any sort of contribution seems a stretch & then if one of Bird, TGH or Knight are unavailable we’re short again.

Personally I’m not bothered whether that is Williams or James but you don’t have to be a genius to work out that one of these two is clearly edging towards the out door.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

I think what this season has shown is trying to run with the smallest senior squad in the division doesn’t work.

With King clearly on his way (& his effectiveness as a squad option likely to decrease) then keeping one of Williams or James makes a lot of sense.

Relying on Murphy or Stokes to make any sort of contribution seems a stretch & then if one of Bird, TGH or Knight are unavailable we’re short again.

Personally I’m not bothered whether that is Williams or James but you don’t have to be a genius to work out that one of these two is clearly edging towards the out door.

We're perhaps 2 light IMO, and yet imbalanced in the odd area overall.

3-4 GKs now..As in 2-3 to cover or compete wirh O'Leary.

Remove 2 of Bajic, Thomas, Wiles-Richards and get one more in to truly compete with O'Leary.

Think we're one CB light too ans maybe the odd area, but at the same time some of the absentees have been rolling and ridiculous..McCrorie joins summer, cannot feature until early January and then  Twine joins, across and is out injured.

[bcfc01]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And we know Knight is a “standards setter” too.

As an aside, Knight has now racked up over 200 EFL appearances and 24 full internationals at the age of 22 (23 next week).

He's scored 14 for Deby in 166 appearances (7 assists) and 5 for us in 36 appearances (4 assists) - we seem to be getting a lot more out of him in that respect, and more to come.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/jason-knight/leistungsdaten/spieler/530780

[RedRoss]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We're perhaps 2 light IMO, and yet imbalanced in the odd area overall.

3-4 GKs now..As in 2-3 to cover or compete wirh O'Leary.

Remove 2 of Bajic, Thomas, Wiles-Richards and get one more in to truly compete with O'Leary.

Think we're one CB light too ans maybe the odd area, but at the same time some of the absentees have been rolling and ridiculous..McCrorie joins summer, cannot feature until early January and then  Twine joins, across and is out injured.

It won't be Thomas he's extended for 18 months.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/bristol-city-goalkeeper-signs-new-9081438

I do agree though. Keep him as third keeper, move on (if possible) Bajic and let go HWR if not deemed good enough and get in proper competition for Max.

[GrahamC]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We're perhaps 2 light IMO, and yet imbalanced in the odd area overall.

3-4 GKs now..As in 2-3 to cover or compete wirh O'Leary.

Remove 2 of Bajic, Thomas, Wiles-Richards and get one more in to truly compete with O'Leary.

Think we're one CB light too ans maybe the odd area, but at the same time some of the absentees have been rolling and ridiculous..McCrorie joins summer, cannot feature until early January and then  Twine joins, across and is out injured.

Think it is pretty clear there will be some changes in the goalkeeping department behind Max this summer.

Harvey Wiles-Richards appears to have told people he’s being released, James Piercy hinted this week that Bajic will look to move on this summer.

The surprising decision to offer a 26 year old lower league keeper in Lewis Thomas an 18 month contract has to be linked to this.

The club clearly rate both Duncan & Casa-Grande so whether they are thinking about putting one on the bench next season knowing they have the insurance of a far more experienced number 3 keeper available is a possibility.

Other alternative is we look to loan them out & bring someone in.

Assuming Atkinson’s ACL issues are over & that we don’t loan Knight-Lebel out, I think we are ok at CB, Naismith another option too, if he stays for the final year of his contract.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

As an aside, Knight has now racked up over 200 EFL appearances and 24 full internationals at the age of 22 (23 next week).

He's scored 14 for Deby in 166 appearances (7 assists) and 5 for us in 36 appearances (4 assists) - we seem to be getting a lot more out of him in that respect, and more to come.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/jason-knight/leistungsdaten/spieler/530780

Glad you brought that up.

As everyone will know, I’m a huge Knight fan.  That’s not to say I don’t think he’s had some off-days, but generally he’s been one of our better players this season imho.  But there is lots of talk of lack of end product, but 5 goals / 4 assists in 36 appearances is a good return, especially (again imho) playing in a position where we don’t make best use of his ability to arrive late in the box.  He doesn’t really want to be playing facing away from goal or side-on, he wants to be driving into the box.

16 games left, I hope he can add another few to his tally.