Max O'Leary super keeper (or not)

[Citychuds]

In my opinion we have a cracking Championship keeper in Max O'leary. I liked Bentley and when he got dropped in favour of Max I was concerned it was a step backwards and maybe a cost cutting exercise. I now feel I was wrong, and wonder if the club just saw Max as the better keeper and therefore didnt need to pay Bentleys high wage. Now id take Max over Bentley any day and comparing him to other Champ keepers I feel we are in a good position. However its clear Max has always been a bit marmite and maybe some fans would happily see him replaced. 

I feel he is cracking at keeping the ball out the net, we dont ship loads of goals he has pulled off a number of excellent stops and has kept us in many games. Has made a few mistakes (Preston etc) but not many and in fairness his timing on coming out or punching is pretty good

The distribution issue is frustrating but I wonder if this fogs some fans overall view of him. Vyners distribution at points is interesting yet nobody seems to want him replaced. 

I also wonder if both his quieter demeanor, smaller stature and the fact he came through the youth setup (which rarely happens for keepers) none of which seem to affect his performances also fog our view of the player we have.

Ive not seen Bajic play so I dont know how good he is, is he a champ backup keeper? If not and we need to get a keeper in (which seems to be the consensus) id still argue we dont need a number one keeper.

Interested to know peoples thoughts?

[Port Said Red]

I wanted to start a new thread on this, not so much Max himself but the tactics of the distribution.

I don't quite understand the passing to the wings, it seems to me that it has a low success percentage, but it has been used by successive managers and goalkeepers. 

If the ball is over hit possession is given away, if it is under hit, you run the risk of an interception that takes the receiving player out of the defensive shape. That's before you have the issue of the likes of Bell and Mehmeti trying win the ball in the air. It's not so bad with Ross and Cam playing, but it still requires a degree of accuracy that few goalkeepers possess. 

Then you have the situation last night where, having made two good blocks and having the crowd calling his name, obviously gets a rush of adrenalin and hoofs the ball a mile out of play.

I don't quite see what the advantage is compared to playing through the middle, unless any of the coaches on here can explain it to me?

[38MC]

I think he gets a very rough ride from fans. He's a lot better than given credit for. All goalkeepers make mistakes and these tend to lead to goals. His tend to come in quick succession but ultimately over the course of the season I don't think he has more than his peers. In terms of his distribution it's clear he is asked to find players in the wider areas and this is always going to have a lower % of success. But he's following the process and I do think his distribution has improved and will continue to improve. 

He's also soon going to come into his prime. I've seen it said here that he's perfectly good enough for a mid table championship team, I agree with that as a baseline but think he wouldn't look out of place in a promotion chasing side, and I don't think the championship is his ceiling. 

[the1stknowle]

17 minutes ago, Citychuds said:

In my opinion we have a cracking Championship keeper in Max O'leary. I liked Bentley and when he got dropped in favour of Max I was concerned it was a step backwards and maybe a cost cutting exercise. I now feel I was wrong, and wonder if the club just saw Max as the better keeper and therefore didnt need to pay Bentleys high wage. Now id take Max over Bentley any day and comparing him to other Champ keepers I feel we are in a good position. However its clear Max has always been a bit marmite and maybe some fans would happily see him replaced. 

I feel he is cracking at keeping the ball out the net, we dont ship loads of goals he has pulled off a number of excellent stops and has kept us in many games. Has made a few mistakes (Preston etc) but not many and in fairness his timing on coming out or punching is pretty good

The distribution issue is frustrating but I wonder if this fogs some fans overall view of him. Vyners distribution at points is interesting yet nobody seems to want him replaced. 

I also wonder if both his quieter demeanor, smaller stature and the fact he came through the youth setup (which rarely happens for keepers) none of which seem to affect his performances also fog our view of the player we have.

Ive not seen Bajic play so I dont know how good he is, is he a champ backup keeper? If not and we need to get a keeper in (which seems to be the consensus) id still argue we dont need a number one keeper.

Interested to know peoples thoughts?

There seems more confirmation bias with people's opinions of keepers. It is the position where people seem less open to the idea of professional development - drop a few clangers and you are a dodgy keeper, not up to it, need to be shifted, a problem to solve. Whereas other positions are allowed to be inexperienced and develop, probably because their mistakes don't stand out as much. 

Max is clearly a good keeper and is demonstrably improving in performance, confidence and presence (same as the two centre backs in front of him). Not only do I not think he needs to be moved on. I also think he is nowhere near his ceiling and he could get very good. Hopefully fans on here can give him some space and not copy and paste the 'we need new keeper to progress' thread after every defeat.

[The Coach]

Good keeper at this level. Not bad, not amazing.

[Severn Beach Pigeon]

I think he's got a fan club on here that drastically overrate him and are incredibly touchy about any perceived criticism of him.

That said, Max isn't a bad goalkeeper. He's a pretty average one for the Championship who excels at reaction type saves, but lacks in a few other areas.

It's not a position that urgently needs upgrading, but I think an upgrade would be needed if we want promotion.

Edited February 14 by transfer reader

[GrahamC]

10 minutes ago, transfer reader said:

 

It's not a position that urgently needs upgrading, but I think an upgrade would be needed if we want promotion.

So just like everyone else then.

I think he’s improved significantly this season & looks assured now.

The kicking stuff is minor & the margin of error small.

I doubt very much we are looking to replace him, maybe provide cover but that’s entirely different.

[Sheltons Army]

Max is an interesting one and more and more I’m convinced that something about Max’s look or presence gives a (false) overall ‘impression’ of him

And yep , makes the odd error as every keeper 

Hes a lean lad , like many keepers but it’s simply a thing about how naturally we stand or walk , some have ‘a presence’ , a look that in reality has no actual relevance to ability

I think it may have tinged my own thoughts about Max for a long while , but you have to say if you put that aside , that there aren’t too many keepers that are actually better than him at this level - some may ‘appear’ to be the part , have the look and can impress ... but better ? 
 

His positioning for example is as good as anyone at this level IMO

[Riaz]

Good shot stopper. Makes plenty of saves

But the rest of his game is a bit iffy. Distribution and commanding his area.

For me he's a bottom half championship keeper.

 

[Red Ferret]

That save last night with his left leg from the fierce volley shot was immense. Guys a good goalie 

[Littlesh*t]

24 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I wanted to start a new thread on this, not so much Max himself but the tactics of the distribution.

I don't quite understand the passing to the wings, it seems to me that it has a low success percentage, but it has been used by successive managers and goalkeepers. 

If the ball is over hit possession is given away, if it is under hit, you run the risk of an interception that takes the receiving player out of the defensive shape. That's before you have the issue of the likes of Bell and Mehmeti trying win the ball in the air. It's not so bad with Ross and Cam playing, but it still requires a degree of accuracy that few goalkeepers possess. 

Then you have the situation last night where, having made two good blocks and having the crowd calling his name, obviously gets a rush of adrenalin and hoofs the ball a mile out of play.

I don't quite see what the advantage is compared to playing through the middle, unless any of the coaches on here can explain it to me?

Most clubs do it and last night as an example is why.... Max cleared it straight down the middle and there player won the header and the ball landed straight at the feet of the midfielder who the broke straight onto our defence. 

If you play it to the wing the likelihood of being under pressure is low if you don't win it.

Also straight down the middle a defending team has a major advantage of winning it as you are coming onto the ball where attacking team have to try and flick it on. Put it to the wing as all of a sudden it 50/50 rather than 70/30

[Major Isewater]

Max is the business. No question. As others have said he isn’t at his peak yet. This is , astonishingly, his first  full season as a number one keeper. Bloke’s a novice. 
 

[cheese]

If only he could save penalties!  

Edited February 14 by cheese
Typo

[Super]

3 minutes ago, cheese said:

If only he could save penalties!  

Nearly as bad as Shilton in WC90!

[Selred]

He's a bottom third of the Championship keeper for me.

If we want to hit play offs I don't believe he's the right man between the sticks.

Good shot stopper, but can be flappy, makes a few basic errors from long shots (particularly at near post), and poor kicking.

Depends how ambitious we are.

[Davefevs]

36 minutes ago, Riaz said:

commanding his area.

Depends how you define it I guess.

I don’t want my keeper coming for everything, what I want is a keeper who shouts he’s coming to come, and one who communicated he’s not, to stay on his line.  Max does that pretty well.  When he comes and can catch, he tries to.  If he comes to punch, he punches.

He’s generally a good decision maker, and decisive in his actions.  I think he understands he doesn’t have build to “come through everyone”, so chooses when to do so, wisely.

The soundbites you from the manager (both Nige and LM) is that he is a calming influence on those in-front of him.

Overall I think he is a more than capable Champ keeper.  When I see Patterson at Sunderland lauded, I don’t see him being any better than Max.

As of yet, we don’t know whether Max is reliable should we push on.

Without getting carried away, we might get a chance to see over the remaining 14 league games.

 

[Citychuds]

59 minutes ago, transfer reader said:

I think he's got a fan club on here that drastically overrate him and are incredibly touchy about any perceived criticism of him.

That said, Max isn't a bad goalkeeper. He's a pretty average one for the Championship who excels at reaction type saves, but lacks in a few other areas.

It's not a position that urgently needs upgrading, but I think an upgrade would be needed if we want promotion.

You say lacks in a few areas? Only things I can pinpoint are distribution and penalty stopping. Interested to know where you think he lacks. I say it because I think I underrated him because I thought he lacked a lot more than he seems to when I think about it. Im probably really tempting fate here but I actually believe this is the best ive felt about a keeper and pair of centre backs in a while. 

[ExiledAjax]

He's not the greatest keeper we've ever had but so long as the outfield players are good enough to screen/protect him he's absolutely good enough to be a keeper in a top 6 finish.

He's also a big fat £0 in the amortisation column.

Edited February 14 by ExiledAjax

[cityexile]

As somebody who moons ago plied their trade between the sticks, he gets a rough press, and the No 1 usually does. A striker misses three then pops one in, it’s the goal that gets remembered. A goalie makes three great saves then messes one up it’s the mistake people talk about.

Bentley was decent but for me got stuck on his line far too often. Max will come when he thinks he can win it, and is having I suspect to learn the role of sweeper keeper which he is making a good fist of. That one particularly he will look a wally if and when it goes wrong, as it does for every keeper now and again. His positioning is also good, and often you may think ‘the forward has hit is straight at him, but a good % of that is where he has got himself in the right place. Defence is also about partnerships, and the others around him now know him and what he will do, which is also important.  

As for distribution, it’s not always great but he sometimes has to play low % balls to get us out of trouble, or a high press means no easier pass is on.

He is fine. Every goalie messes up, it’s how often. My only concern is the cover one as I have no idea if we really have a number 2 who is Championship ready.

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

I wanted to start a new thread on this, not so much Max himself but the tactics of the distribution.

I don't quite understand the passing to the wings, it seems to me that it has a low success percentage, but it has been used by successive managers and goalkeepers. 

If the ball is over hit possession is given away, if it is under hit, you run the risk of an interception that takes the receiving player out of the defensive shape. That's before you have the issue of the likes of Bell and Mehmeti trying win the ball in the air. It's not so bad with Ross and Cam playing, but it still requires a degree of accuracy that few goalkeepers possess. 

Then you have the situation last night where, having made two good blocks and having the crowd calling his name, obviously gets a rush of adrenalin and hoofs the ball a mile out of play.

I don't quite see what the advantage is compared to playing through the middle, unless any of the coaches on here can explain it to me?

Sat with a Southampton fan last night and I made these comments to him about Max's distribution - he said he thought he'd been pretty good all night (and better than theirs) and only kicked one out of play all night.

It's quite obvious that Southampton in particular were leaving a lot of space for our wingers, it's definitely the outball for a keeper if a short feet option isn't on.

[Rob k]

1 hour ago, Red Ferret said:

That save last night with his left leg from the fierce volley shot was immense. Guys a good goalie 

But still a shot that you would expect a competent championship keeper to make. I’d have been disappointed if that had gone in.

[Open End Numb Legs]

I am happy with Max. As for saying what his level is, anyone who saw the West Ham game v Arsenal would wonder how Areola gets that job, he was poor.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, The Coach said:

Good keeper at this level. Not bad, not amazing.

How I see it too. Not a "super keeper" but is a competent Championship shot-stopped that I'm happy to have in place next season. The question is whether Bajic is good enough to step in if called upon.

We've been lucky with Max staying uninjured, but it's a position that gets lots of heavy impacts. Goalies, like everyone else, can lose form too.

 

[Dr Balls]

Considering Southampton reportedly paid £12 million for Bazunu and other than that one save when he came out to stop Mehmeti in the first half, did nothing much, I would say Max was at least as good as him, if not better. Interesting as they are both Republic of Ireland keepers. In fact across both teams there were a few Irish internationals last night.

[Pip King]

Has his flaws but a few weeks ago people were saying on here that a new keeper was top of the shopping list in the summer, which is absolute rubbish. Some questionable distribution yesterday but keeps us in the game regularly.

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

I wanted to start a new thread on this, not so much Max himself but the tactics of the distribution.

I don't quite understand the passing to the wings, it seems to me that it has a low success percentage, but it has been used by successive managers and goalkeepers. 

If the ball is over hit possession is given away, if it is under hit, you run the risk of an interception that takes the receiving player out of the defensive shape. That's before you have the issue of the likes of Bell and Mehmeti trying win the ball in the air. It's not so bad with Ross and Cam playing, but it still requires a degree of accuracy that few goalkeepers possess. 

Then you have the situation last night where, having made two good blocks and having the crowd calling his name, obviously gets a rush of adrenalin and hoofs the ball a mile out of play.

I don't quite see what the advantage is compared to playing through the middle, unless any of the coaches on here can explain it to me?

I was about to highlight those same two incidents! One minute chanting his name, the next a collective groan!

Down the middle, I guess, equals two or three giant central defenders heading it straight back! Full backs tend to be smaller - and to be fair, when the ball doesn’t sail over his head Bell in particular wins a fair few of them. But I’m no coach!

[italian dave]

12 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Considering Southampton reportedly paid £12 million for Bazunu and other than that one save when he came out to stop Mehmeti in the first half, did nothing much, I would say Max was at least as good as him, if not better. Interesting as they are both Republic of Ireland keepers. In fact across both teams there were a few Irish internationals last night.

I was fascinated by Bazunu last night: surprised it’s not been mentioned more.

Much of the time he seemed to be playing what I knew in my younger days as a sweeper! And some sweepers played even deeper than he did!

The Middlesbrough keeper on Saturday was similar, if a bit less extreme. It felt like we’d talked about that because we tried to lob him from distance a couple of times, but didn’t seem to try that last night

I can see the benefits - but there are obvious risks too…..has he been caught out this season? 

[Open End Numb Legs]

Much like a good wicket keeper in cricket, a good goalie makes the team look better than maybe they are. They are both individual positions and mistakes are glaringly obvious.

Let's get behind Max when he plays (not literally ) as confidence is a key factor.

[Firstyardleftinbed]

 

30 minutes ago, cityexile said:

As somebody who moons ago plied their trade between the sticks, he gets a rough press, and the No 1 usually does. A striker misses three then pops one in, it’s the goal that gets remembered. A goalie makes three great saves then messes one up it’s the mistake people talk about.

Bentley was decent but for me got stuck on his line far too often. Max will come when he thinks he can win it, and is having I suspect to learn the role of sweeper keeper which he is making a good fist of. That one particularly he will look a wally if and when it goes wrong, as it does for every keeper now and again. His positioning is also good, and often you may think ‘the forward has hit is straight at him, but a good % of that is where he has got himself in the right place. Defence is also about partnerships, and the others around him now know him and what he will do, which is also important.  

As for distribution, it’s not always great but he sometimes has to play low % balls to get us out of trouble, or a high press means no easier pass is on.

He is fine. Every goalie messes up, it’s how often. My only concern is the cover one as I have no idea if we really have a number 2 who is Championship ready.

As another older member of the keepers union I agree with all of this.

Max is good all round keeper, he's not the world class shot stopper that some people expect him to be but he does a lot of the 'ugly' stuff well and is pretty consistent. He does make mistakes like any keeper at this level but the more he plays the better he will get and less we'll see any mistakes. By the end of next season, with another full season behind him I think we'll start to see a very good keeper and possibly do well to hold on to him. A bit more pressure from whoever is his # 2 should help this as well 

[Shauntaylor85]

He has improved for sure but no doubt a new keeper is going to be on the list this summer. Someone stronger with ball at feet and genuinely more commanding. 

[Numero Uno]

2 hours ago, transfer reader said:

I think he's got a fan club on here that drastically overrate him and are incredibly touchy about any perceived criticism of him.

That said, Max isn't a bad goalkeeper. He's a pretty average one for the Championship who excels at reaction type saves, but lacks in a few other areas.

It's not a position that urgently needs upgrading, but I think an upgrade would be needed if we want promotion.

The issue, and it’s OTIB in a nutshell, is he makes a mistake and gets labelled by a few idiots as  “the in goal” so when he has a good game other posters rush to his defence more or less labelling him “Prime Buffon”. He’s not a League 1 keeper and he won’t be leaving for a regular game in the Prem either.

The question for me is that if we are serious about being top end does he need GENUINE competition for his place like everyone else and not just “cover”.

[Roger Red Hat]

1 hour ago, Selred said:

He's a bottom third of the Championship keeper for me.

If we want to hit play offs I don't believe he's the right man between the sticks.

Good shot stopper, but can be flappy, makes a few basic errors from long shots (particularly at near post), and poor kicking.

Depends how ambitious we are.

Please list the two thirds who are better.

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, cheese said:

If only he could save penalties!  

Max is an excellent keeper. I have never understood what some don’t see with others that see what is not there. 
 

He is decent in most areas and is up there with all of the top keepers in the division. 
 

However if I was going to be super pedantic I would suggest a penalty save would do him and us some good. 
 

 

[David Brent]

Don’t want to get told off for being positive about Max again but he’s perfectly good enough for us. Certainly not a priority for recruitment. 

[Severn Beach Pigeon]

1 hour ago, Citychuds said:

You say lacks in a few areas? Only things I can pinpoint are distribution and penalty stopping. Interested to know where you think he lacks. I say it because I think I underrated him because I thought he lacked a lot more than he seems to when I think about it. Im probably really tempting fate here but I actually believe this is the best ive felt about a keeper and pair of centre backs in a while. 

Certainly distribution, and that's even taking into account that he's instructed to play it to the wings which itself is an action more likely to turnover possession.

Commanding the box a bit. I admit to having the same bias that Sheltons Army has with his built, so won't go overboard there, and as Davefevs says, communication with the backline is more important so long as the right decisions are made.

But there's also been a couple of times in recent games where he's come charging out of the area needlessly presumably from poor communication. We got away with that in the Boro game. Might have been one in the Leeds game too.

Now the communication for that may not have been entirely Max's fault. 

[Riaz]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Depends how you define it I guess.

I don’t want my keeper coming for everything, what I want is a keeper who shouts he’s coming to come, and one who communicated he’s not, to stay on his line.  Max does that pretty well.  When he comes and can catch, he tries to.  If he comes to punch, he punches.

He’s generally a good decision maker, and decisive in his actions.  I think he understands he doesn’t have build to “come through everyone”, so chooses when to do so, wisely.

The soundbites you from the manager (both Nige and LM) is that he is a calming influence on those in-front of him.

Overall I think he is a more than capable Champ keeper.  When I see Patterson at Sunderland lauded, I don’t see him being any better than Max.

As of yet, we don’t know whether Max is reliable should we push on.

Without getting carried away, we might get a chance to see over the remaining 14 league games.

 

For me he is prone to dropping the ball and he also punches it too often, when he can catch it.

I'm not saying he's sh!t, by any means. But i do think he's one of the weaker players.

[Selred]

10 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Please list the two thirds who are better.

Well he's only rated 31st in WhoScored this season...

[Glen hump]

2 hours ago, Red Ferret said:

That save last night with his left leg from the fierce volley shot was immense. Guys a good goalie 

Sorry mate but that save wasn’t immense, it was a bog standard save any keeper at a half decent level should save , imo of course.

[italian dave]

21 minutes ago, Selred said:

Well he's only rated 31st in WhoScored this season...

In the Championship??

[Selred]

1 minute ago, italian dave said:

In the Championship??

Yes. Caveats though, it includes some keepers who play 1 game, its based on average rating

[Bristol Oil Services]

2 hours ago, Riaz said:

Good shot stopper. Makes plenty of saves

But the rest of his game is a bit iffy. Distribution and commanding his area.

For me he's a bottom half championship keeper.

 

Bottom half? Well, he's part of a top six defence though, along with Zak, Dickie & co. I don't know how many shots we allow the opposition and all that but only five other sides have conceded fewer. Max must've played his part.

Big Nige certainly left us with a decent, one could say top end defence, a very solid base for Liam Manning to build upon and deliver or add the desired front foot/"sexy" football  (which was perhaps not Nige's forte).

[Robinsfan]

The likelihood is most fans probably don't watch enough of the other keepers in the championships to get an idea of how good they are. The only goalkeeper I've heard being universally lauded in this division is Viktor Johansson, but that's primarily as a shot-stopper.

[ExiledAjax]

 

30 minutes ago, Selred said:

Yes. Caveats though, it includes some keepers who play 1 game, its based on average rating

Fbref hide players that haven't played many games. You'll have to decided your own "rating" but they provide some good basic numbers.

https://fbref.com/en/comps/10/keepers/Championship-Stats

Max is:

• 7th best for goals conceded per 90
• 4th best for saves per 90
• 3rd best for save %
• and all whilst facing the 5th highest number of shots on target.

Why are the numbers so good? Because we screen him really well. He faces a high number of shots, but they're from low quality chances. He's faced quite a low xG per shot on target against him. On average he's being asked to make, and is then making, easy saves.

This is borne out by the fact that his variance between goals conceded and expected goals conceded is just +0.3 for the whole season. He's saved just 0.3 goals more than you might expect. He's doing his job. Not overachieving not underachieving.

This is why I say that right now he's perfectly ok as a base on which to build a team that can seriously challenge for top 6 if we continue to protect him. The defence is a unit and if we defend well then we don't need an expensive and perfect goalkeeper. Were we not so good at the protection element then we'd need an upgrade for sure.

I'd expect us to upgrade if we were going for the title or if we ever do get promoted - but you don't need a perfect keeper to finish in the playoffs.

Edited February 14 by ExiledAjax

[Dredd]

1 hour ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

He has improved for sure but no doubt a new keeper is going to be on the list this summer. Someone stronger with ball at feet and genuinely more commanding. 

I actually do doubt that theres a keeper on the shopping list this year, not a number 1 anyway. Maxs distribution in our third is generally very good, it's when he has to hit it longer then he has a bit of a weakness (though he did easily hit halfway last night with a monster throw). 
I also think it's a myth he isn't commanding. Very rarely is there any sort of mix up with him and the defence, he's more than happy to come clear the ball outside of the box and has caught more crosses this season than Bentley did in his entire stay with us. His stature probably gives the impression he isn't commanding but he actually marshals the box very well

1 hour ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Edited February 14 by Dredd

[And Its Smith]

I think a lot of fans can’t judge a keeper correctly.  Take Palace’s goal on Monday…as soon as it goes in it’s a keeper error in my view.  A lot of fans wouldn’t understand why but then Cech explains it well at half time.  If the Chelsea keeper had done better he would have saved it and then some fans would say “that’s his job”

Max is a very good championship keeper. 

[And Its Smith]

1 hour ago, Riaz said:

For me he is prone to dropping the ball and he also punches it too often, when he can catch it.

I'm not saying he's sh!t, by any means. But i do think he's one of the weaker players.

Keepers are coached and told to punch a lot more now.  That’s probably why he does it 

[Midred]

And if all players were perfect there'd be some boring matches.

[Severn Beach Pigeon]

11 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

I think a lot of fans can’t judge a keeper correctly.  Take Palace’s goal on Monday…as soon as it goes in it’s a keeper error in my view.  A lot of fans wouldn’t understand why but then Cech explains it well at half time.  If the Chelsea keeper had done better he would have saved it and then some fans would say “that’s his job”

Max is a very good championship keeper. 

No, the Palace goal was a good hit. Although Petrovic's positioning was a bit suspect.

However if he'd saved it it would have been lauded as a good save.

 

And with all that said, the chance should never have been allowed, but a defender dawdled on the ball losing it cheaply in a dangerous position.

 

 

And all of that is very different the the people on here that pretend that when a shot is hit straight at Max he's pulled of a save akin to Banks vs Pele

Edited February 14 by transfer reader

[IAmNick]

1 hour ago, David Brent said:

Don’t want to get told off for being positive about Max again but he’s perfectly good enough for us. Certainly not a priority for recruitment. 

I think it's a more complex question than that though. He's good enough for us in the literal sense - in that we're a mid table Championship side which he's clearly more than capable of performing well in.

The question is though, is he what Manning wants in a keeper? If his possession based, building from the back game is highly important and it's acknowledged that distribution is perhaps one of the weaker areas of Max's game (not saying he's poor, it's just not a strength) then perhaps we'll change. Not for one who is overall "better" in every department, but for one whose strengths compliment what Manning wants.

It's like how say, Williams is clearly a good Championship midfielder, but is he what Manning wants from a Championship midfielder?

[Middlesbrough Robin]

3 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

It's like how say, Williams is clearly a good Championship midfielder, but is he what Manning wants from a Championship midfielder?

The way he was spreading around the play, setting up attacks and taking good free kicks yesterday, probably yes.

[IAmNick]

Just now, Middlesbrough Robin said:

The way he was spreading around the play, setting up attacks and taking good free kicks yesterday, probably yes.

I agree, he was excellent, it was just an example.

[And Its Smith]

8 minutes ago, transfer reader said:

No, the Palace goal was a good hit. Although Petrovic's positioning was a bit suspect.

However if he'd saved it it would have been lauded as a good save.

 

And with all that said, the chance should never have been allowed, but a defender dawdled on the ball losing it cheaply in a dangerous position.

 

 

And all of that is very different the the people on here that pretend that when a shot is hit straight at Max he's pulled of a save akin to Banks vs Pele

If Petrovic had a better starting position and moved his feet better it would have looked reasonably comfortable.  It wouldn’t have been but it would have looked it. We will never agree on Max or keeping in general I’m sure!

[Davefevs]

Max’s data compared to all Championship keepers:

All of you typical technical goalkeeping stuff he’s pretty much better than average.

Passing lets him down.

[Grey Fox]

Good keeper , who has grown into the role , and is still improving. Absolute keep.

[Red from afar]

If he was in a play-off chasing team, I'd be fairly confident he wouldn't be the reason for us not making the playoffs over a whole season.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Red from afar said:

If he was in a play-off chasing team, I'd be fairly confident he wouldn't be the reason for us not making the playoffs over a whole season.

That’s a far better use of words to describe what I was trying to say the other day.  We may have 14 games to prove / disprove!

[Rob k]

4 minutes ago, Red from afar said:

If he was in a play-off chasing team, I'd be fairly confident he wouldn't be the reason for us not making the playoffs over a whole season.

That all Depends how far off the play offs we were!! 

[Supersonic Robin]

35 minutes ago, Red from afar said:

If he was in a play-off chasing team, I'd be fairly confident he wouldn't be the reason for us not making the playoffs over a whole season.

Worth noting that I think this is probably true of almost any goalkeeper in the Championship though, given that play-off sides are generally characterised by the fact their GK doesn't have to do too much.

[Sleepy1968]

I used to go mental when crosses were put into our box during Dan Bentley's regin - he'd usually stay rooted to his line.

For that reason alone I'm content to see Max in goal, whilst at the same time conceding that there are parts of his game that could be better.

Edited February 14 by Sleepy1968

[Supersonic Robin]

IMO, Max falls into the category of "fine".

He's perfectly acceptable for where we are, but if we want to push towards the top 6 then we need to be ruthless in saying that we want more than "fine".

Unfortunately for him, when I look at our theoretical best XI, goalkeeper looks like one of the clearest positions for improvement (wide players probably being the priority assuming we continue with a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1).

FWIW, I think Max's resilience across his time at the club is commendable. As a player who has served years as a back-up and had a season as our first choice Championship goalkeeper, I think he can be considered a success of the academy.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

FWIW, I think Max's resilience across his time at the club is commendable. As a player who has served years as a back-up and had a season as our first choice Championship goalkeeper, I think he can be considered a success of the academy.

Yep, brilliant really isn’t it?

And to think Wollacott has had a decent pro career too.

[Cowshed]

5 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

I wanted to start a new thread on this, not so much Max himself but the tactics of the distribution.

I don't quite understand the passing to the wings, it seems to me that it has a low success percentage, but it has been used by successive managers and goalkeepers. 

If the ball is over hit possession is given away, if it is under hit, you run the risk of an interception that takes the receiving player out of the defensive shape. That's before you have the issue of the likes of Bell and Mehmeti trying win the ball in the air. It's not so bad with Ross and Cam playing, but it still requires a degree of accuracy that few goalkeepers possess. 

Then you have the situation last night where, having made two good blocks and having the crowd calling his name, obviously gets a rush of adrenalin and hoofs the ball a mile out of play.

I don't quite see what the advantage is compared to playing through the middle, unless any of the coaches on here can explain it to me?

The passing to the what are wide positions is due to the intent of the team, they are part of the build up patterns as an out ball. The low success % playing to flanks (30 -35M) is still more advantageous than playing longer centrally (+40m) where the % success for O'leary is notably very low  and the risk from lost possession increases. In possession the team is opening out, numerical superiority is conceded centrally and if the ball is then played centrally the team is in a very poor position to defend against a counter attack.

In regards to accuracy its a competency you would expect a keeper in a  possession based team to have. O'leary's passing range (length x variety of pass) and its accuracy is on the low side, and very low v Keepers playing in teams playing out through the thirds.

[Fuber]

He's slightly inconsistent.

But it's worth pointing out that, rather than age, for the period in his career he is at that he actually doesn't have that many first team appearances. Inconsistency would reflect that, Imo.

[LondonBristolian]

For me, it comes down to two questions:

1) is the goalkeeper where I’d want us to spend (inevitably finite) resources over the summer?

2) if we did spend money on a goalkeeper, am I confident any player we bring in will be a significant upgrade on Max?

I would answer “no” to both questions. I’d rather we focused our resources on the best striker and creative midfielder we could attract and I think we would inevitably bring in either an upcoming keeper from a less high standard of league, a promising player from a premier league u-23 team, or someone not getting games at a championship club. In all cases, I’d not be confident they would be better than Max. 

You could argue we need greater competition but that very much depends on Manning’s view of Bajic and I have no idea what that view is, or what level Bajic is currently at.

Don’t get me wrong - I’d happily take Ederson, Allison or even Pickford if they’re about to come available and ready to move to BS3 on 10% of their wage due to their secret burning ambitions to play  for Bristol City but, in the absence of that scenario, I simply don’t see upgrading on Max as a priority.

[UREDS_91]

My main issue with Max is for all of the excellent saves he makes. He makes some equally questionable passes/mistakes.

For example, on Tuesday. A brilliant save with his legs, to then follow up with a simple collection which he nearly parried out to an opponent. 
 

in short, is fine for what we need in the mid-championship level. Not a top champ team keeper for me. 

[MelksRed]

The guy has made saves that have been as good as a goal at the other end. We have points we otherwise wouldn't have had due to his performances. 

Yes, distribution is at times lacking (this genuinely annoys me)...and yes, He is prone to a moment of madness (as all keepers are). 

People have seemingly forgotten that Max ousted Bents from the sticks whilst he was still here. Maybe due to a character clash with NP, maybe not.

Given the choice between spending money on a striker or Keeper..I'd keep Max and spend on being more clinical at the other (business) end of the pitch.

In short, he continues to grow in strength and stature for me.

Edited February 15 by MelksRed

[SydneyCity]

Keeper is an insane position.

You could be one of the best keepers in the league but still not play as you’re not THE best at your club. 

I rate Max a lot… but for all we know Bajic may be even better. Someone in France felt he was the best at his age - and the French know football. Hopefully he’s providing solid competition for Max.

Let’s be honest, we were all a little bit doubtful when Max stepped in for Bents, but he’s done very well.

[reddogkev]

Amazing to think he's been at City since 2013.  He is now without a doubt good enough to be our number 1.

Before this season I had doubts about whether he would make it at this level, but I don't have those doubts anymore.  He's a quality keeper and will be even better next year.

I also feel that Bajic should have played some first team games to see his ability.  Not to replace Max, but to see if he's also good enough for this level, otherwise it does seem like a waste of a salary.

Being a number 2 keeper and never playing must be the most frustrating thing on the planet.

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

For me, it comes down to two questions:

1) is the goalkeeper where I’d want us to spend (inevitably finite) resources over the summer?

2) if we did spend money on a goalkeeper, am I confident any player we bring in will be a significant upgrade on Max?

I would answer “no” to both questions. I’d rather we focused our resources on the best striker and creative midfielder we could attract and I think we would inevitably bring in either an upcoming keeper from a less high standard of league, a promising player from a premier league u-23 team, or someone not getting games at a championship club. In all cases, I’d not be confident they would be better than Max. 

You could argue we need greater competition but that very much depends on Manning’s view of Bajic and I have no idea what that view is, or what level Bajic is currently at.

Don’t get me wrong - I’d happily take Ederson, Allison or even Pickford if they’re about to come available and ready to move to BS3 on 10% of their wage due to their secret burning ambitions to play  for Bristol City but, in the absence of that scenario, I simply don’t see upgrading on Max as a priority.

Man City could easily get an upgrade to Edersons modest shot stopping ability.

His passing ability? No. Not only does Ederson skills base fit Man City's key possession principle he advances the sub principles as to how they will play e.g. width and extreme depth and playing positionally.

Man City made a compromise to advance their football by putting a exceptional talent with the ball at his feet in one of the fundamental positions for a team playing possession and positional football.

 

[SydneyCity]

29 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Being a number 2 keeper and never playing must be the most frustrating thing on the planet.

It must be. There’s a thing over here in Australia with swimmers. You could be the fifth best swimmer in the world, but nobody will ever know because you’re not the fourth best swimmer in Australia, and will never make an international squad. Regionals, yes. But no Nationals, no Commonwealths, no Olympics, even though you could still beat almost everyone in the world given the chance.

Keepers are a rare breed.