The elephant in the room

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Two players there who would vastly improve Bristol City tactical flexibility because of their key technical qualities in key positions.

Think of good possession teams, and great ones, and their systems as ask yourself which ones don't have above average on the ball throughout that spine from GK - CB - CDM - CAM? It will be a short list. 

Thats where Liam Manning is. Working towards a model without yet his quarterbacks, the numerous players to dictate play and uphold the principles. BCFC's football is forming, its in an early developing stage. 

 

O'Leary could distribute a bit shorter to Vyner then one of Dickie or Atkinson. That CB position is a bit of a challenge when all 3 fit and in form.

In turn, to Naismith who can distribute to Scott and of more of a pressing, counter pressing emphasis Knight if you want to go a bit longer. Scott and the aforementioned about to carry and win free kicks in both halves..can break up or build pressure and perhaps reset some time in possession a bit.

This is purely counter factual as 1 is sold and 2 have rolling injures.

Scott and Naismith though, just IMO can in their own ways or could in their own ways have broken the lines I believe.

[Sleepy1968]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

If we had the same movement and passing angles created in the last third, that we often create in the first thirds, then it could be more productive.

 

This aspect of our play winds me up so much. Unless we've triggered to close down the defence, we are really static in the final third.

 

[Simon bristol]

The transfer window was pretty awful for manning, money spent but only one incoming who is likely to have much game time,, and hes injured.  Not signing a number 9 is a killer though. There have been some tremendous performances, and yet we could easily see what would happen against qpr, and it did, we were pathetic… I haven’t seen anything at this point to really say getting rid of pearson was worth it.

[reddogkev]

My elephant in the room is that Liam Manning is a nice guy, too nice to be a decent manager / coach.  You need to have that fire, that killer instinct to succeed, and he doesn't appear to have it.

I can guarantee now he will stay a few years and nothing will really change.  

We need the manager with aggression that transfer to the players, the sort of passion you see on the touchline.

Manning is definitely a bit too vanilla.

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

My elephant in the room is that Liam Manning is a nice guy, too nice to be a decent manager / coach.  You need to have that fire, that killer instinct to succeed, and he doesn't appear to have it.

I can guarantee now he will stay a few years and nothing will really change.  

We need the manager with aggression that transfer to the players, the sort of passion you see on the touchline.

Manning is definitely a bit too vanilla.

Yeah, good point. (I also have my doubts about some of his tactics for certain games and substitutions).

He doesn't really get into the officials tbh, he doesn't seem the sort of manager who could whip up a bit of a siege mentality. We need it as a club,we need to toughen up and smarten up a bit..we very seldom seem to get favours from anyone else in the game, or large and weird slices of luck falling our way.

[The Coach]

9 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

My elephant in the room is that Liam Manning is a nice guy, too nice to be a decent manager / coach.  You need to have that fire, that killer instinct to succeed, and he doesn't appear to have it.

I can guarantee now he will stay a few years and nothing will really change.  

We need the manager with aggression that transfer to the players, the sort of passion you see on the touchline.

Manning is definitely a bit too vanilla.

And that is what the Lansdown’s want.

We are simply a cosy club. We will not shake off that tag until under new ownership. 

[fisherrich]

NP was the best manager down here for years, that there is no doubt. No resources or financial backing offered by Lansdown. Lansdownes need to go.

[lenred]

5 minutes ago, The Coach said:

And that is what the Lansdown’s want.

We are simply a cosy club. We will not shake off that tag until under new ownership. 

Beat me to it.   It’s exactly what they want.  Same with LJ…….those that challenge fall by the way side.   But we all know those stories already…... really hope Manning betrays his nice person demeanour behind closed doors, as and when it’s needed. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

Joe Edwards another one sacked today after 18 games. 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Cifuentes and Rohl from the position they inherited have done well.

Rohl had 3 pts from 11 games, record breaking bad, Cifuentes one home win in 10 months or whatever, 8 points 14 games.

Plymouth would've kept Schumacher given the choice, he quit to go to Stoke.

Mowbray has begun fine but far too soon to glean long term trends. Now health issues will force his absence for a while.

In our case though, it perhaps reinforces the folly of the decision to change anyway.

Edited February 21 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 minutes ago, Gaseater said:

How many championship managerial changes this season has had the desired transformational effect that the op is demanding?

Brum - Rooney sacked, Mowbray limited

Blackburn - Eustace tbc

BCFC - Manning limited

Huddersfield - Moore sacked

Millwall - Edwards sacked

Plymouth - Foster limited 

QPR - Cifuentes limited

Rotherham - Richardson limited

Sheff Wed - Rohl limited

Sunderland - Beale Sacked

Swansea - Williams limited 

There hasn’t been a single championship managerial change that has had a significant impact on league position or upturn in fortunes, so you are asking Manning to achieve something that no one else in the league has been able to do. 

 

Rohl - 26 points

Manning - 23 points

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, Gaseater said:

I would argue they have done a very similar job to Manning - ok, nothing special. 

Nah you can't have that. Both have  improved their teams.

Ruhl especially has taken Sheffield Weds from a team that was going to be relegated before Valentine's Day to one that's got a half chance of staying up.

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, Gaseater said:

I would argue they have done a very similar job to Manning - ok, nothing special. 

Context is very important.

Under Ainsworth QPR looked doomed, Sheffield Wednesday looked in terrible trouble when Rohl came in..3 points from 11 games, 0 wins.

Rohl- 26 pts, 22 games.

Xisco- 2 pts, 10 games

Caretaker 1 pt, 1 game

Cifuentes- 24 pts, 19 games.

Ainsworth- 8 pts, 14 games

Pearson- 18 pts, 14

Fleming- 3 pts, 1 game

Manning 23 pts, 18 games

Edited February 21 by Mr Popodopolous

[ExiledAjax]

7 minutes ago, Gaseater said:

They have improved their sides, but it would’ve been very difficult not to wouldn’t it? 

So you admit they have had a positive effect, but belittle and downplay that by saying that it wasn't hard to improve them.

Btw I don't see what bearing other managerial changes have on the merit of our own. I know you didn't bring that into the conversation either. 

I really think it's quite irrelevant.

Edited February 21 by ExiledAjax

[pillred]

15 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Sunderland didn't consider it to be too soon for Beale. 1.17 ppg from 12 games. 

Currently Manning is on 1.27 ppg.

Manning was on 1.25 after 12 games.

Holden was sacked with a 1.44 ppg from 41 games.

Holden was also sacked from Charlton with a ppg of 1.28 from 32 games. 

Pearson was sacked with a higher PPG in the 18 games he managed this season. 18 games was enough to decide Pearsons future. 

It's OK to reserve judgment but to me there is a trend developing. 

But Pearson was given 3 years, not just the 18 games at the end. I would hope we have learned that chopping and changing managers does not usually work and it's not as if we need to panic as barring an unlikely set of results we are safe this season, perhaps if we were in relegation trouble your suggestion would carry more merit.

[IAmNick]

I think quite often teams who are playing very poorly for a time and fire their manager will then naturally improve purely by regression to the mean. Whether it was the new manager or not is hard to tell.

City weren't in some awful death spiral of results though, and have largely continued as we were. It's not really comparing apples to apples in a lot of these cases imo.

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, IAmNick said:

I think quite often teams who are playing very poorly for a time and fire their manager will then naturally improve purely by regression to the mean. Whether it was the new manager or not is hard to tell.

City weren't in some awful death spiral of results though, and have largely continued as we were. It's not really comparing apples to apples in a lot of these cases imo.

Yes, the infamous "bounce" is normally observed only in those underperforming teams. There was no reason to expect a bounce when Manning was appointed.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, IAmNick said:

I think quite often teams who are playing very poorly for a time and fire their manager will then naturally improve purely by regression to the mean. Whether it was the new manager or not is hard to tell.

City weren't in some awful death spiral of results though, and have largely continued as we were. It's not really comparing apples to apples in a lot of these cases imo.

Yep there is a lot of whataboutery creeping in here. The fact is taking over Sheffield Weds who were up shit creek is a different proposition from taking over Bristol City who were in a decent position with a motivated squad. On a similar basis, taking over City this season is a different challenge to taking over City post Holden where we were genuinely abysmal.

The basic fact is that managers typically take over a side in one of two circumstances - a sacking due to poor performance or the old manager being poached. It’s really unusual to take over a mid table side with aspirations of the playoffs mid season with nothing majorly wrong. 
 

And once again, that is why comparing Liams first x games to Niges first x games or to Sheffield Weds (worse position on takeover) is futile and really just muddies things. Why people want to do that, who knows?

It again comes down to the basic question: With what people have seen from Liam to date - and not comparing him with Nige - what confidence do they have that he’ll get it right bearing in mind what we’ve seen here and what he’s done elsewhere? And getting it right cannot be not progressing from the base and spending money to do so - you wouldn’t do that in any business. It has to be improvement.

Everything else is just noise.

[George Rs]

Think anyone who wants Manning gone in the summer needs to take a breath and calm down personally, that type of logic and irrationality put us in a hole so big our previous manager spent his whole tenure trying, and succeeding, to pull the club out of it. 
 

He’s got an upper mid/midtable squad to exactly that position. Whilst putting on some cracking performances in the cup. 
I could go on for quite a while about why I feel quite optimistic about Manning personally. 

[Silvio Dante]

3 minutes ago, George Rs said:

Think anyone who wants Manning gone in the summer needs to take a breath and calm down personally, that type of logic and irrationality put us in a hole so big our previous manager spent his whole tenure trying, and succeeding, to pull the club out of it. 
 

He’s got an upper mid/midtable squad to exactly that position. Whilst putting on some cracking performances in the cup. 
I could go on for quite a while about why I feel quite optimistic about Manning personally. 

Ummm…

Without saying he should go, we were in such a big hole that Pearson had to pull us out of precisely because we held onto a manager for too long and let him spend too much money, therefore ending up with a bloated and overpaid squad. The root cause was not making a quicker decision on Lee Johnson and ending up with too many players. Holden was then a continuation of that - we sacked him correctly quickly but the reason for the mess was entirely the opposite of what your post suggests.

[George Rs]

7 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Ummm…

Without saying he should go, we were in such a big hole that Pearson had to pull us out of precisely because we held onto a manager for too long and let him spend too much money, therefore ending up with a bloated and overpaid squad. The root cause was not making a quicker decision on Lee Johnson and ending up with too many players. Holden was then a continuation of that - we sacked him correctly quickly but the reason for the mess was entirely the opposite of what your post suggests.

Didn’t mean with manager hiring/firing specifically, just broader irrational decision making from senior staff. 

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, George Rs said:

Didn’t mean with manager hiring/firing specifically, just broader irrational decision making from senior staff. 

Ok - what was the irrational decision making from senior staff that led to the hole Pearson had to pull us out of? Because the answer genuinely is that we spent too much money and kept faith with a manager too long.

I’m not saying Manning should be sacked. What would lead us exactly down the same hole though is spending loads of money on “his players” if the club are in any doubt as to whether he’s the man long term. And as this thread displays, there is significant doubt over that amongst a lot of the fanbase currently.

The very worst case scenario is supporting him in the summer and then having to fire him by Christmas. Unless he improves his game management markedly, then that is a very plausible one though - and puts us down that hole.

[Superjack]

2 hours ago, reddogkev said:

My elephant in the room is that Liam Manning is a nice guy, too nice to be a decent manager / coach.  You need to have that fire, that killer instinct to succeed, and he doesn't appear to have it.

I can guarantee now he will stay a few years and nothing will really change.  

We need the manager with aggression that transfer to the players, the sort of passion you see on the touchline.

Manning is definitely a bit too vanilla.

And we all know why we keep ending up with 'vanilla'...

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Ok - what was the irrational decision making from senior staff that led to the hole Pearson had to pull us out of? Because the answer genuinely is that we spent too much money and kept faith with a manager too long.

I’m not saying Manning should be sacked. What would lead us exactly down the same hole though is spending loads of money on “his players” if the club are in any doubt as to whether he’s the man long term. And as this thread displays, there is significant doubt over that amongst a lot of the fanbase currently.

The very worst case scenario is supporting him in the summer and then having to fire him by Christmas. Unless he improves his game management markedly, then that is a very plausible one though - and puts us down that hole.

Pearson and Gould fwiw, they were a perfect team.

On that second point, I don't have confidence in the checks and balances combining finance and football with the current hierarchy as I did with that pair especially.

Edited February 21 by Mr Popodopolous

[Superjack]

Pearson was the right man and Manning isn't. That isn't Manning's fault. 

It's pointless debating it anyway, because we will go nowhere until the Lansdowns and their puppet leave. 

 

[George Rs]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Ok - what was the irrational decision making from senior staff that led to the hole Pearson had to pull us out of? Because the answer genuinely is that we spent too much money and kept faith with a manager too long.

I’m not saying Manning should be sacked. What would lead us exactly down the same hole though is spending loads of money on “his players” if the club are in any doubt as to whether he’s the man long term. And as this thread displays, there is significant doubt over that amongst a lot of the fanbase currently.

The very worst case scenario is supporting him in the summer and then having to fire him by Christmas. Unless he improves his game management markedly, then that is a very plausible one though - and puts us down that hole.

Yes agreed, didn’t explain my point very well there. 
 

I think they’ve already got the ball rolling though with the transfers we’ve completed in January. Bird, Murphy, stokes and Mebude (option) all seem like Manning signings based on their profile. And many of them have links to him that would verify it. 

Personally think he’s alright with game management as well, did it almost perfectly in our fa cup games. Changed things against borough, to the liking/disliking of many, but ultimately got the points in the bag. And managed the Southampton game very well. Don’t think the QPR match which to me just screamed of mental/physical fatigue should take away from those performances. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, Tim Monaghan said:

I'm trying to look at this with my neutral hat on, although unfortunately for @W-S-M Seagull, his bias towards NP and his feelings towards Manning are so far ingrained it's hard to read a post from you without the obvious agenda that is laced throughout the post.

"We’ve had a few flashes in the pan but ultimately we have not taken the steps forward that Manning was expected to do." - Whose expectation are we talking about here? The fans, JL, yours? I think we need to get rid of this "top 6" notion. Did anyone actually say this? The fans, well, I think anyone with any sense could tell that we didn't have a top 6 side. NP inherited a side which contained AS, AS, TK, and DB and we still weren't able to get top 6, let alone midtable.

"He's been here for 23 games and there has been very little sign that he has the ability to sort these issues out. Teams have figured us out and there is no plan B." - So are we at the point to judge a manager on 18 league games? Because NP won 2, drew 3, and lost 9 in the first 14 games he was in charge (only had 14 until the end of the season and I don't think it's fair to compare after NP had a summer transfer window and a whole offseason). Scoring 14 and conceding 25. Whereas Manning has a record of 4 wins, 5 draws, 5 losses. Scoring 17 and conceding 17. Bearing in mind we've played Southampton, Leeds, Sunderland, Hull, Preston, and Coventry all in those first 14 games too (All top 10 sides at present). I don't remember a single "Elephant in the room" when Pearson started like that, with a better side (as above). As you've said, shouldn't a coach/manager improve the players he's got? He had Alex Scott, Antoine Semenyo (who he dropped), Tomas Kalas, and Dan Bentley in the team ffs.

"I hear lots of people say "well he needs a preseason, he needs his own players" etc." - So you didn't want Pearson to have a preseason and get his own players in that summer then after that awful form when he took over tp the end of the season? In fact, you said about Pearson "Come the summer we are going to be in a very good place. Like we've finally managed to reset ourselves."

"9 points from the last 9 games / 2 wins from 9 is totally not acceptable." - I swear you're on a wind-up. I'll take Nigel Pearson's reign in blocks of 9 from the start:

1st block of 9 games - 8 points 2 wins from 9 - Not acceptable

2nd block of 9 games (1st 5 games 20/21 2nd 4 games 21/22 and a summer) - 5 points 1 win for 9 - Not acceptable

3rd block of 9 games - 12 points 3 wins from 9 - Acceptable?

4th block of 9 games - 11 points 3 wins from 9 - Acceptable?

5th Block of 9 games - 9 points - 3 wins from 9 - Not acceptable

6th block of 9 games - 7 points - 2 wins from 9 - Not Acceptable

Shall I go on?

Look, @W-S-M Seagull I admire your passion for Pearson and I actually respect it in an way, but I would respect you so much more as a poster if you weren't so ridiculously bias and hypocritical when it comes to the two managers. That's what this is all about, right? 

P.s It isn't "The elephant in the room" if its constantly talked about every second of the day, its actually the opposite.

You can keep trying to frame this as me having an agenda and that it's all about Nigel Pearson as much as you like. It doesn't make it true Tim. That shows your own agenda doesnt it? All you're trying to do is to create a smokescreen because you don't like the uncomfortable truths being spoken about. So you have to try and attack and belittle me in order to try to get me to stop talking about them.

Why do you and others like you have an inability to accept that fans have a genuine concern with how the club is run from the top down? Why is that an alien concept for you? Why does football fans caring about the club they pay to support, bother you so much? 

Once Pearson went I quickly moved on to who the replacement would be. From day one I said Manning was the wrong replacement and after 18 league games that opinion of mine has got even more robust. 

It was OK of course for me to be pissed off with JL, BT and GM about the ridiculous decision to sack a manager after a defeat to Ipswich and defeat to Cardiff with barely 11 fit first team players and to then also have a separate opinion on the replacement. 

Those two things are not mutually exclusive. But for some reason to you they are. 

Had we of appointed a manager that fitted the squad we have and then improved us, I'd not be posting this thread. 

I'm talking about the here and the now and the position we find ourselves in. My general observations is the only ones that keep talking about Pearson is those who were anti Pearson. 

It's hard to take posts like yours seriously when it's clear it's dripping in bias around your dislike for the previous manager. You want Manning to be a success because you want to be right about Pearson. I want Manning to be a success because I want success for Bristol City. That's the difference. 

Can we please stop with this bs about none of us actually thought we had a top 6 side. You're using that to play down Mannings underwhelming record. 

I posted a poll on here on Aug 3rd asking where posters where they think we'd finish

Here's the results -

Automatic - 1.82%

Play offs - 23.36% 

7th - 12th - 65.69%

13th - 21st - 8.76%

Relegation - 0.36%

The vast majority expected an improvement on last season. 

 

Please feel free to go back and look at the comments.

Why are you comparing Pearsons start here with Mannings? It's an incompatible comparison. 

It's already been discussed in this thread. Pearson came in and we were possibly heading for relegation with a shite squad that had many issues. The expectations were different. 

Manning came in and he had an oven ready squad to take it forward. He's failed to do that. Everything was in place for him to do that. He didn't need to come in and build a culture or improve the squad's fitness etc. It was all there. It does you no favours trying to suggest the two situations were similar when in fact it was night and day. The fact you're suggesting they are similar says a lot about your agenda. 

This is the team that played in the game Vs Boro when Pearson took over

Bentley - Kalas - Mariappa- Vyner - Towler - Nagy - Bakinson - Palmer - Hunt - Wells - Diedhiou 

To suggest that team is better than the one we have now to try and get the violins out for Manning is probably the most ridiculous thing I've read on here. Once again, I have to ask myself why are you saying that team is better? When it clearly wasn't. 

Pearson earned the right to have a pre season. All of us accepted that we needed to undergo a rebuild and patience was required. 

Most of us will agree that Pearson was successful with the rebuild at the same time as avoiding ffp punishment. 

Why are you providing random blocks of games in entirely different circumstances? Did Nigel have that oven ready squad then? No, so it's irrelevant. 

The only blocks relevant is this sesson once the reset had happened. 

This season 

Pearson

1st block of 9 - 12 points 3 wins

Next 5 games - 6 points 2 wins. Some may want to include the win Vs Sheffield Wed in that. 

You often ignore the context of how we had lots of injuries etc. 

Manning

1st block of 9 - 14 points 4 wins

2nd block of 9 - 9 points 2 wins

You also ignore the context that Manning has had greater squad availability. 

You can try and frame me as being biased all you want. But the cold hard facts are posted above which show that rather than me being biased, it's infact yourself. 

My post was about Manning and the future of Bristol City, you've made it about Pearson. Go figure. 

P.s I very clearly said in my post that the elephant in the room is about the summer. That doesn't get discussed on here. 

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, George Rs said:

Yes agreed, didn’t explain my point very well there. 
 

I think they’ve already got the ball rolling though with the transfers we’ve completed in January. Bird, Murphy, stokes and Mebude (option) all seem like Manning signings based on their profile. And many of them have links to him that would verify it. 

Personally think he’s alright with game management as well, did it almost perfectly in our fa cup games. Changed things against borough, to the liking/disliking of many, but ultimately got the points in the bag. And managed the Southampton game very well. Don’t think the QPR match which to me just screamed of mental/physical fatigue should take away from those performances. 

No problem, you know the drill, if you say something be prepared to justify it!

I’ve said elsewhere that I quite liked our January window. I had a problem with the Twine signing as it was just expensive vanity to get us a couple of places higher. It appears from limited evidence that Medube may not be up to it so no harm done. Bird I think looks good business and he’s been on radar (at least with @Mr Popodopolous!) long term as has Murphy. Stokes I agree Manning is the deciding factor - Tommy Widdrington confirmed in an interview this week that LM coached him previously. But the fact is that two of those are looking at an enormous step up and are punts at best, so we’ve only got one real first team signing confirmed in Bird. That means to shape LMs side the way he wants, we will have to spend money so we’re back to the question of how good an idea that is.

Id have to disagree on the management of games, and even a lot of “pro” LM posters have noted it could be better. You’ve missed from your list a load where IMO it’s been sub par (takes breath) including Millwall, Boro (H), QPR (A), Preston, Soton (A), Birmingham….we can agree to disagree but it’s been pretty glaring so far I’d say and it is an issue for him. It’s the thing that’ll do him in more than anything else and as long as the concern remains I’d be reticent to give him significant funds.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, pillred said:

But Pearson was given 3 years, not just the 18 games at the end. I would hope we have learned that chopping and changing managers does not usually work and it's not as if we need to panic as barring an unlikely set of results we are safe this season, perhaps if we were in relegation trouble your suggestion would carry more merit.

The first 2 and a bit years of Pearsons reign can be disregarded. 

This season Pearson and Manning have had the same squad. Results have not got better, we've regressed. 

This is with Manning having greater player availability too. 

My post is me talking about is Manning the correct guy to take us forward and based on what we've seen, do we want to take the gamble of giving him a summer. 

4 minutes ago, Gaseater said:

Ummm… Mark Ashton was the key factor here, not LJ or Holden.

Now I know you're Bristol Sport. 

[Super]

10 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

You can keep trying to frame this as me having an agenda and that it's all about Nigel Pearson as much as you like. It doesn't make it true Tim. That shows your own agenda doesnt it? All you're trying to do is to create a smokescreen because you don't like the uncomfortable truths being spoken about. So you have to try and attack and belittle me in order to try to get me to stop talking about them.

Why do you and others like you have an inability to accept that fans have a genuine concern with how the club is run from the top down? Why is that an alien concept for you? Why does football fans caring about the club they pay to support, bother you so much? 

Once Pearson went I quickly moved on to who the replacement would be. From day one I said Manning was the wrong replacement and after 18 league games that opinion of mine has got even more robust. 

It was OK of course for me to be pissed off with JL, BT and GM about the ridiculous decision to sack a manager after a defeat to Ipswich and defeat to Cardiff with barely 11 fit first team players and to then also have a separate opinion on the replacement. 

Those two things are not mutually exclusive. But for some reason to you they are. 

Had we of appointed a manager that fitted the squad we have and then improved us, I'd not be posting this thread. 

I'm talking about the here and the now and the position we find ourselves in. My general observations is the only ones that keep talking about Pearson is those who were anti Pearson. 

It's hard to take posts like yours seriously when it's clear it's dripping in bias around your dislike for the previous manager. You want Manning to be a success because you want to be right about Pearson. I want Manning to be a success because I want success for Bristol City. That's the difference. 

Can we please stop with this bs about none of us actually thought we had a top 6 side. You're using that to play down Mannings underwhelming record. 

I posted a poll on here on Aug 3rd asking where posters where they think we'd finish

Here's the results -

Automatic - 1.82%

Play offs - 23.36% 

7th - 12th - 65.69%

13th - 21st - 8.76%

Relegation - 0.36%

The vast majority expected an improvement on last season. 

 

Please feel free to go back and look at the comments.

Why are you comparing Pearsons start here with Mannings? It's an incompatible comparison. 

It's already been discussed in this thread. Pearson came in and we were possibly heading for relegation with a shite squad that had many issues. The expectations were different. 

Manning came in and he had an oven ready squad to take it forward. He's failed to do that. Everything was in place for him to do that. He didn't need to come in and build a culture or improve the squad's fitness etc. It was all there. It does you no favours trying to suggest the two situations were similar when in fact it was night and day. The fact you're suggesting they are similar says a lot about your agenda. 

This is the team that played in the game Vs Boro when Pearson took over

Bentley - Kalas - Mariappa- Vyner - Towler - Nagy - Bakinson - Palmer - Hunt - Wells - Diedhiou 

To suggest that team is better than the one we have now to try and get the violins out for Manning is probably the most ridiculous thing I've read on here. Once again, I have to ask myself why are you saying that team is better? When it clearly wasn't. 

Pearson earned the right to have a pre season. All of us accepted that we needed to undergo a rebuild and patience was required. 

Most of us will agree that Pearson was successful with the rebuild at the same time as avoiding ffp punishment. 

Why are you providing random blocks of games in entirely different circumstances? Did Nigel have that oven ready squad then? No, so it's irrelevant. 

The only blocks relevant is this sesson once the reset had happened. 

This season 

Pearson

1st block of 9 - 12 points 3 wins

Next 5 games - 6 points 2 wins. Some may want to include the win Vs Sheffield Wed in that. 

You often ignore the context of how we had lots of injuries etc. 

Manning

1st block of 9 - 14 points 4 wins

2nd block of 9 - 9 points 2 wins

You also ignore the context that Manning has had greater squad availability. 

You can try and frame me as being biased all you want. But the cold hard facts are posted above which show that rather than me being biased, it's infact yourself. 

My post was about Manning and the future of Bristol City, you've made it about Pearson. Go figure. 

P.s I very clearly said in my post that the elephant in the room is about the summer. That doesn't get discussed on here. 

WTF are you on about you turn everything into a  Pearson v Manning debate. It's boring now. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

9 minutes ago, Super said:

WTF are you on about you turn everything into a  Pearson v Manning debate. It's boring now. 

What I said to Tim applies to you too. 

My post was about Manning. No mention of Pearson. Yet here you are talking about Pearson. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

9 minutes ago, Gaseater said:

I think you have a very strange obsession. Genuinely, I think you need to take a step back and reflect on your mindset because it’s really quite bizarre.

If wanting Bristol City to be successful is a strange obsession then I'm happy to have that strange obsession. 

I'm not quite sure how calling out below par performances is a bizarre mindset. I'd suggest its actually a high performance mindset to not accept mediocrity. 

[RollsRoyce]

10 minutes ago, Gaseater said:

I think you have a very strange obsession. Genuinely, I think you need to take a step back and reflect on your mindset because it’s really quite bizarre.

I think he makes interesting points, but you keep dragging him back to talk about Pearson. That is also bizarre, as the topic has zero to do with Pearson. 

[George Rs]

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

No problem, you know the drill, if you say something be prepared to justify it!

I’ve said elsewhere that I quite liked our January window. I had a problem with the Twine signing as it was just expensive vanity to get us a couple of places higher. It appears from limited evidence that Medube may not be up to it so no harm done. Bird I think looks good business and he’s been on radar (at least with @Mr Popodopolous!) long term as has Murphy. Stokes I agree Manning is the deciding factor - Tommy Widdrington confirmed in an interview this week that LM coached him previously. But the fact is that two of those are looking at an enormous step up and are punts at best, so we’ve only got one real first team signing confirmed in Bird. That means to shape LMs side the way he wants, we will have to spend money so we’re back to the question of how good an idea that is.

Id have to disagree on the management of games, and even a lot of “pro” LM posters have noted it could be better. You’ve missed from your list a load where IMO it’s been sub par (takes breath) including Millwall, Boro (H), QPR (A), Preston, Soton (A), Birmingham….we can agree to disagree but it’s been pretty glaring so far I’d say and it is an issue for him. It’s the thing that’ll do him in more than anything else and as long as the concern remains I’d be reticent to give him significant funds.

Yep there’s been some obvious poor at best examples as well, no doubt about it. I would say my opinions are coupled with a hearty amount impatience which will probably show some flaws but overall I feel;

I don’t think we at risk of going down under Manning 

In his tenure he has shown an ability to go into the game as the “underdogs” and win (West Ham, Southampton, should’ve happened at Forest (A) as well) 

Has shown he can improve players (Williams, bell etc) 

No matter the opponent keeps us in games (only lost 1 by a margin of more then 1 goal) 

There are other plus points as well as some negative ones of course. But imo i think based on them he deserves a pre-season and a couple of his own signings. Not loads as I agree with your point that come November it could all be different and we would’ve repeated that previous poor decision making. But 2 maybe 3 players of proven championship quality? Especially if Tommy were to go. 
 

Might read this and think I sound slightly naive, there’s a good chance I will as well , I would just love some success for a change and think we have a good a chance as any with Manning at the helm and with the make up of the league next season. 

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

I disagree with your last point.  A striker can help create chances for others and bring others into play more. We don’t have that type of striker right now 

Right now, we don’t play through or off of a central striker, so their involvement (generalisation) is predominantly to get on the end of chances.  If any striker isn’t fed because they’re screened by a low block, it doesn’t matter how good they are (that’s me trying to be simple).

If however you think Manning might change his approach if we had a different striker, then maybe.  But I’m struggling to agree based on what I’ve seen from LM and what he’s said about his “one up top”.  Think we are gonna have to wait until the summer and preseason to find out whether a different type will be a game-changer.

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, RollsRoyce said:

I think he makes interesting points, but you keep dragging him back to talk about Pearson. That is also bizarre, as the topic has zero to do with Pearson. 

It's a continued frustration of mine. 

There are certain posters that always bring it back to Pearson. Why they do that, I don't quite know. So I then respond to them and that gives the illusion I'm always talking about Pearson when in fact I'm just responding to it. 

I'm trying to focus on the here and the now and the not too distant future but time and time again it always gets brought back to Pearson. 

Edited February 21 by W-S-M Seagull

[RollsRoyce]

 

13 minutes ago, Super said:

WTF are you on about you turn everything into a  Pearson v Manning debate. It's boring now. 

He was not talking about Pearson until someone dragged it up. It is about the future not the past and has been interesting. If you are bored, just block him or do not read the thread. It is a forum for opinions. It is very evident that some get personal, and start using **** or WTF when they are unable to cope with an opinion that is not their own. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

18 minutes ago, George Rs said:

Yep there’s been some obvious poor at best examples as well, no doubt about it. I would say my opinions are coupled with a hearty amount impatience which will probably show some flaws but overall I feel;

I don’t think we at risk of going down under Manning 

In his tenure he has shown an ability to go into the game as the “underdogs” and win (West Ham, Southampton, should’ve happened at Forest (A) as well) 

Has shown he can improve players (Williams, bell etc) 

No matter the opponent keeps us in games (only lost 1 by a margin of more then 1 goal) 

There are other plus points as well as some negative ones of course. But imo i think based on them he deserves a pre-season and a couple of his own signings. Not loads as I agree with your point that come November it could all be different and we would’ve repeated that previous poor decision making. But 2 maybe 3 players of proven championship quality? Especially if Tommy were to go. 
 

Might read this and think I sound slightly naive, there’s a good chance I will as well , I would just love some success for a change and think we have a good a chance as any with Manning at the helm and with the make up of the league next season. 

Bell started the season quite well under NP at least in respect of goals. I'd also say the run of injuries to Williams abating is also a useful factor and a benefit for whoever is manager.

Just checked, Bell got 4 goals by the end of September.

Now if the all-round game and tactical side are improving that is to the credit of Manning but young players can develop as well.

Edited February 21 by Mr Popodopolous

[George Rs]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Bell started the season quire well under NP at least in respect of goals and assists, I'd also say the run of injuries to Williams abating is also a useful factor and a benefit for whoever is manager.

Oh I agree Bell started the season well, his raw traits makes him very useful on the counter, which made him very useful under Pearson. 
 

When Manning came in and for the most part we switched to this more methodical slower build up he became less effective very quickly and I struggled to see how that would change, since then and especially over the last month I feel he’s improved in a variety of areas that I think our down to Manning. 
 

Williams still played 38 games last season and 11 this season under Pearson, plenty of time to show progression imo which didn’t happen until Manning arrived and he’s gone basically from strength to strength since. 

Edited February 21 by George Rs

[JAWS]

One thing is for sure & that is lansclown has (needlessly) divided what was recently a pretty united fan base  and it's not the first time! 

[Ivorguy]

8 hours ago, Tomo said:

Let's hope that the start of MK Dons 22/23 season is not replicated for us in 24/25

Quote: 'Following an awful start to the season that found his side in the relegation zone, Manning was sacked on 11 December 2022 having accumulated just fifteen points from twenty matches, six points from safety and only off the bottom on goal difference'

 

My fear too.  As they say another LJ

[Superjack]

I think people should give @W-S-M Seagull a break. Yes, he's pro-Pearson, but that doesn't mean that whenever he expresses concern about Manning, he isn't doing it objectively. 

I don't think that he is "always dragging things back to Pearson" at all. 

I will though. Because his sacking was a ****ing disgrace.

[And Its Smith]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Right now, we don’t play through or off of a central striker, so their involvement (generalisation) is predominantly to get on the end of chances.  If any striker isn’t fed because they’re screened by a low block, it doesn’t matter how good they are (that’s me trying to be simple).

If however you think Manning might change his approach if we had a different striker, then maybe.  But I’m struggling to agree based on what I’ve seen from LM and what he’s said about his “one up top”.  Think we are gonna have to wait until the summer and preseason to find out whether a different type will be a game-changer.

I remember a fair few long balls up to Conway and Wells and then we lose possession. 

[Natchfever]

23 minutes ago, RollsRoyce said:

I think he makes interesting points, but you keep dragging him back to talk about Pearson. That is also bizarre, as the topic has zero to do with Pearson. 

Well said.

People mention the previous manager and when wsm responds they are accused of having an obsession.

He doesnt rate Manning.

Pearson is history.

Possibly another shit appointment but time will tell. Time (and budget I suspect) will be afforded to the current HC but he should be open to scrutiny.

[Davefevs]

@Tim Monaghan 

Gavin Marshall mentioned Promotion this season in his itv (Ross someone) interview.  

Jon Lansdown mentioned Promotion this season in his Joe Sims interview.

You can imply top 6 from these two because you can’t get promoted by finishing 7th or below.  And I think most of us would accept top 6 / playoffs even if we didn’t get promoted.  That would be a grand effort.

Jon Lansdown mentioned top-end in his club interview.

Brian Tinnion mentioned top-end in his club interview.  He’s the smart one, he never mentioned it at all!!!

How you want to take these second two is subjective, so in some respects we might as well ignore their ambiguity.  But people are clinging to a notion that it was never mentioned as an easy dig at WSM (and others).

+++++

So my preference is that we stop using “they never said playoffs or promotion” as a defence, because they actually did.  But I don’t make the rules, nor do I enforce them, so each to his own.  But anyone that does undermines their argument imho.  However I’d also prefer that we don’t posts about holding them to it either, because Jon Lansdown also said words to the effect that “not getting promoted isn’t a reason to sack either”.

So, Manning won’t be sacked based on that objective alone.

But his success / failure can be judged in many ways.  Ultimately it will be the Board’s evaluation and judgment, not us fans.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

I remember a fair few long balls up to Conway and Wells and then we lose possession. 

So do I, but the point is, that’s not how Manning is trying to play.  It’s done out of necessity, not design.

[Robbored]

Just now, Natchfever said:

Possibly another shit appointment but time will tell. Time (and budget I suspect) will be afforded to the current HC but he should be open to scrutiny.

Every manager is open to scrutiny - it goes with the job. The press, the fans and the owners all assessing how the job is going.

We all know that every managerial appointment is a gamble - there is was no guaranteed success strategy.

[George Rs]

1 minute ago, Gaseater said:

His sacking wasn’t a disgrace, he was the 2nd longest serving manager in the league and there were plenty of occasions where he could’ve been sacked previously, Pearson said so himself. The sacking was harsh and the lack of investment after Scott sale shows the club didn’t feel he was going to be here long term - harsh but fair. I liked Pearson and think he did a good job in rebuilding the club, but he also failed to get the best out of a number of players who are now improving under Manning. I would’ve loved the Pearson from 10 years ago, but thaT  wasn’t to be….the notion that his sacking was “a disgrace” is well OTT though. 

@W-S-M Seagull and apparently your the obsessed one

[Superjack]

10 minutes ago, Gaseater said:

His sacking wasn’t a disgrace, he was the 2nd longest serving manager in the league and there were plenty of occasions where he could’ve been sacked previously, Pearson said so himself. The sacking was harsh and the lack of investment after Scott sale shows the club didn’t feel he was going to be here long term - harsh but fair. I liked Pearson and think he did a good job in rebuilding the club, but he also failed to get the best out of a number of players who are now improving under Manning. I would’ve loved the Pearson from 10 years ago, but thaT  wasn’t to be….the notion that his sacking was “a disgrace” is well OTT though. 

I think that you will find yourself in a minority in your opinion. 

Unless you frequent the inner sanctum of the 'boardroom' of course. 

It was a disgrace.

 

[Natchfever]

14 minutes ago, Gaseater said:

His sacking wasn’t a disgrace, he was the 2nd longest serving manager in the league and there were plenty of occasions where he could’ve been sacked previously, Pearson said so himself. The sacking was harsh and the lack of investment after Scott sale shows the club didn’t feel he was going to be here long term - harsh but fair. I liked Pearson and think he did a good job in rebuilding the club, but he also failed to get the best out of a number of players who are now improving under Manning. I would’ve loved the Pearson from 10 years ago, but thaT  wasn’t to be….the notion that his sacking was “a disgrace” is well OTT though. 

Who do you reckon Manning is getting a tune out of who Pearson didnt?

Genuine question

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, Tim Monaghan said:

I like your posts Dave, I do, but I just don't get why you were so lenient with Pearson and so harsh with Manning, its just confusing. 

Quite simple - context of situation - what Pearson was handed over, what Manning was handed over.  Chalk and cheese, and therefore different expectations along the way.

This season I’ve been quite critical at times of Nige, especially the way he played the front-three.  Before this season I had higher expectations.  Some of the criticism was tempered by injuries in the squad.

I’m not harsh (imho) on Manning, over-analytical, maybe, but that’s my method.  I set my expectations of Manning clearly up front.  I don’t recall anyone saying - ”Fevs those are completely unrealistic”.

Here they are again.

 

and that’s what I’ve measured him against at the high level.  I’ve then gone into lower detail in terms of different aspects of his style - attacking, defending, pressing / blocking, build-up / passing.

I don’t think anyone could’ve been more complimentary of his press / block than me.  After a few games of wobbly defending (small sample) he’s settled that down nicely for it to be performing at a nice level.  But my criticisms to balance the two positives are in our attacking play.  That was the area I expected him to make more if an impact.

I’ve praised his interviews, his beliefs, his ability to answer tough Qs on the spot.

I’ve criticised some of his game management.

I don’t think I’ve been harsh at all.

Had he had to take over in a relegation battle for example, I’d have a very different set of expectations and be measuring differently.

Have I really been harsh…or just shoeing consistency to my expectations and my method?

If you think I have, that’s fine. Ta.

Edited February 21 by Davefevs

[Superjack]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Quite simple - context of situation - what Pearson was handed over, what Manning was handed over.  Chalk and cheese, and therefore different expectations along the way.

This season I’ve been quite critical at times of Nige, especially the way he played the front-three.  Before this season I had higher expectations.  Some of the criticism was tempered by injuries in the squad.

I’m not harsh (imho) on Manning, over-analytical, maybe, but that’s my method.  I set my expectations of Manning clearly up front.  I don’t recall anyone saying - ”Fevs those are completely unrealistic”.

Here they are again.

 

and that’s what I’ve measured him against at the high level.  I’ve then gone into lower detail in terms of different aspects of his style - attacking, defending, pressing / blocking, build-up / passing.

I don’t think anyone could’ve been more complimentary of his press / block than me.  After a few games of wobbly defending (small sample) he’s settled that down nicely for it to be performing at a nice level.  But my criticisms to balance the two positives are in our attacking play.  That was the area I expected him to maje more if an impact.

I’ve praised his interviews, his beliefs, his ability to answer tough Qs on the spot.

I’ve criticised some of his game management.

I don’t think I’ve been harsh at all.

Had he had to take over in a relegation battle for example, I’d have a very different set of expectations and be measuring differently.

Have a really been harsh…or just shoeing consistency to my expectations and my method?

If you think I have, that’s fine. Ta.

Level-headed as usual Dave.

Apart from the bit about his interviews. They are just mind numbing.

Anyone can answer a difficult question on the spot if they have spent all week thinking of the answer.

[Mr Popodopolous]

You could make a case that Mehmeti has been a bit more productive under Manning.

He was not too bad in some of the Cup games, the assist v Southampton and the goal v Hull are good, hitting the post v Sunderland. Fine margins.

Not saying he is dazzling but is he showing a bit more? Maybe.

Can't think of anyone else though.

Edited February 21 by Mr Popodopolous

[Maltshoveller]

22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah, he’s not going anywhere, nor should he be at this point.

But I also think it’s fine for WSM to have his view too.  And yes, he’s gone early, and we can all have a good laugh when he’s proved wrong, can’t we.  But what if WSM has got it right?

He cant lose can he

If he is wrong it means City are doing well

If he is right He can say "I told you so"

I have a feeling He wants it to be the latter 

[Natchfever]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You could make a case that Mehmeti has been a bit more productive under Manning.

He was not too bad in some of the Cup games, the assist v Southampton and the goal v Hull are good, hitting the post v Sufnrland. Fine margins.

Not saying he is dazzling but is he showing a bit more? Maybe.

Can't think of anyone else though.

Agreed Mr P, only one I can think of at present but he drives me nuts more than impresses me !

[Superjack]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You could make a case that Mehmeti has been a bit more productive under Manning.

He was not too bad in some of the Cup games, the assist v Southampton and the goal v Hull are good, hitting the post v Sufnrland. Fine margins.

Not saying he is dazzling but is he showing a bit more? Maybe.

Can't think of anyone else though.

I could counter that Mehmeti is (currently) one of those frustrating 'one game in five' players. 

So if you constantly play him, something good will happen eventually. 

I actually quite like him for that reason. 

[Galley is our king]

9 hours ago, RedRoss said:

Don't worry just ignore it. Every new user on here who isn't wholly negative is called a BS employee. Unfortunately this place resembles the paranoia of gaschat when they accuse everyone of being a city fan.

Unfortunately, OTIB was infiltrated by Bristol Sport EMPLOYEES the day Pearson was sacked! This was proved!

Each rubbishing Pearson in a shocking way while being paid by Bristol Sport!

Typical of crayon boy and snake who obviously knew there would be a backlash to his sacking!

Those employees need to have a bloody good look at themselves as do us supporters. 

Putin esq propaganda has no place within our club. This is just yet another reason that I will NOT renew my season ticket!

62 years man and boy and never felt so disheartened about the club.

2 things life has taught me....

I don't suffer fools gladly.

I can't tolerate liars.

 

[Superjack]

1 minute ago, Galley is our king said:

Unfortunately, OTIB was infiltrated by Bristol Sport EMPLOYEES the day Pearson was sacked! This was proved!

Each rubbishing Pearson in a shocking way while being paid by Bristol Sport!

Typical of crayon boy and snake who obviously knew there would be a backlash to his sacking!

Those employees need to have a bloody good look at themselves as do us supporters. 

Putin esq propaganda has no place within our club. This is just yet another reason that I will NOT renew my season ticket!

62 years man and boy and never felt so disheartened about the club.

2 things life has taught me....

I don't suffer fools gladly.

I can't tolerate liars.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

22 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

Agreed Mr P, only one I can think of at present but he drives me nuts more than impresses me !

He's definitely frustrating Natch. Also who knows how sustained as when he first entered he was exciting, but woodwork 2-3 times iirc.

Feel sorry for whoever is behind him at fullback too, Mehmeti's defensive work..can be sketchy.

[And Its Smith]

45 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So do I, but the point is, that’s not how Manning is trying to play.  It’s done out of necessity, not design.

If the necessity continues then we would benefit from a different kind of striker

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

I loved that the keepers used to take Wendy around for a stroll. People used to give her buns which they said was unhealthy but she lived a long long life.

[Superjack]

2 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I loved that the keepers used to take Wendy around for a stroll. People used to give her buns which they said was unhealthy but she lived a long long life.

Buns = Happiness.

Happiness = Long life. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, Gaseater said:

Mehmeti, Williams, Tanner, Roberts, Knight have improved under Manning, that’s not to say that Pearson didn’t get a tune out of them, he did…..but they have improved in my view. 

Knight may have more goals, would have to check but in his younger days at Derby he did chip in with some.

With the exception of Mehmeti the jury is out.

Indeed, Tanner..to what extent Manning and what to what extent having to push a bit further in all areas as McCrorie was finally back?

[W-S-M Seagull]

57 minutes ago, Gaseater said:

His sacking wasn’t a disgrace, he was the 2nd longest serving manager in the league and there were plenty of occasions where he could’ve been sacked previously, Pearson said so himself. The sacking was harsh and the lack of investment after Scott sale shows the club didn’t feel he was going to be here long term - harsh but fair. I liked Pearson and think he did a good job in rebuilding the club, but he also failed to get the best out of a number of players who are now improving under Manning. I would’ve loved the Pearson from 10 years ago, but thaT  wasn’t to be….the notion that his sacking was “a disgrace” is well OTT though. 

Why do I feel like I've read this post a thousand times before? 

Is it a copy and paste job? 

[Superjack]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Why do I feel like I've read this post a thousand times before? 

Is it a copy and paste job? 

Maybe. 

Maybe he works in some sort of office... 

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

27 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

He cant lose can he

If he is wrong it means City are doing well

If he is right He can say "I told you so"

I have a feeling He wants it to be the latter 

I so want to be wrong. 

I go to every game with my kids. They've never seen us have any sort of success. It's been a hard sell at times but we relentlessly go. I want to be able to experience running on the pitch celebrating promotion with my kids. That's the dream of mine. 

I want to be able to take my kids to watch us challange ourselves against the best teams in the world home and away. I want them priceless memories. 

You won't here me saying "I told you so" it would be more like "We've lost another good opportunity and wasted more time" because that's how I see it. 

If anyone actually wants Bristol City to do badly so they can be right on a forum then they need their heads seeing to. For me it's all about us being successful. I don't spend over a grand a year to be able to say on a forum "I was right" I'd be surprised if anyone did. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 minutes ago, Superjack said:

Maybe. 

Maybe he works in some sort of office... 

 

An office in Russia? 

[RedRoss]

31 minutes ago, Galley is our king said:

Unfortunately, OTIB was infiltrated by Bristol Sport EMPLOYEES the day Pearson was sacked! This was proved!

Each rubbishing Pearson in a shocking way while being paid by Bristol Sport!

Typical of crayon boy and snake who obviously knew there would be a backlash to his sacking!

Those employees need to have a bloody good look at themselves as do us supporters. 

Putin esq propaganda has no place within our club. This is just yet another reason that I will NOT renew my season ticket!

62 years man and boy and never felt so disheartened about the club.

2 things life has taught me....

I don't suffer fools gladly.

I can't tolerate liars.

 

Thanks for proving the point.

Like I said some are as paranoid as the gas of 'ted' infiltration on gaschat.

It's very weird.

[Galley is our king]

22 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I loved that the keepers used to take Wendy around for a stroll. People used to give her buns which they said was unhealthy but she lived a long long life.

Well hello, missed you at the weekend.

This is though a football forum. How did you think we played on Saturday?

[Galley is our king]

1 minute ago, RedRoss said:

Thanks for proving the point.

Like I said some are as paranoid as the gas of 'ted' infiltration on gaschat.

It's very weird.

It's not paranoia if proved.

It's FACT!