Season Ticket Renewal!

[mozo]

28 minutes ago, mattjb said:

You will need a large adjustable spanner at the very least I would suggest 

Post of the Day winner right there... 

[phantom]

13 hours ago, Andy082005 said:

As for the comparison to last year - again, its not really important but I just think it would give us a good idea on where the fan base are at when it comes to supporting the plebs that run this club 

or those that are aware of the chaotic fixture schedule ahead and are not buying because of that?

I still ask how people suddenly think the football is all of a sudden any worse than compared to the vast majority in the past

13 hours ago, frenchred said:

Why don't you?

Because meetings discuss sensitive and private information and not for me to disclose

[Marvin]

3 minutes ago, 8 men had a dream said:

Blimey - just checked my bank online, and there are now lots of pending BCFC charges!
For the £1.25 or £2.50 charges...

But still the transaction online wouldn't work

My charge has gone down to £1.25 as well. Attempted to change seats on my phone as well. Still telling me to phone customer services. 

[Sir Geoff]

44 minutes ago, Stockwood gate said:

Stupid question are you allowed to move seats in the south stand 

No

[Simple Red]

People seem to be having a problem switching seats due to the £1.25 fee not processing. Does anyone have a solution?

[internetjef]

Mate just got through on phone after an hour long hold in que 

tried to shift 4 of us to some different seats . Managed to do his, hold 3 seats for each of us next to him , but we all need to call up seperately in next 24 hours to confirm them 

so if that’s the way it’s going to work I imagine the phone lines will remain busy long into the day 

[HBsource]

I was stuck since 10am with the new seats in my basket but unable to make the £2.50 payment online. Then just got a message to say the items had 'unexpectedly been removed fom your basket' and those seats are now unavailable.

 

Bloody annoying.

[NcnsBcfc]

1 hour ago, eardun said:

Are you doing this?

”selecting your Season Ticket under the “Season Tickets” tab and then selecting the “Replace Seat” button.”

Yep, just moved by youngest's seat in E28, all went well.

A lot better than being in "queue position 52" for the next 3 hours....

[Simple Red]

I was ahead of the game. I rang the club a month ago and was told that I had to call Supporter services at 10am today to move my seat. I spent an hour on the phone queuing, having hit the call button. I was 20th in the queue. Eventually a very nice lady answered and I soon found out that it was a difficult process, due to me having paid by direct debit. She completed the process and told me that it would have been easier to do it online. I said that I was doing what I had been told and she said that it wasn’t communicated very well by the club! My mate is trying to move seats online and it won’t accept the £1.25 fee. It appears that neither of us was ahead of the game!

Whereas Tottenham fans say that their club is so “Spursy”, what would be the correct term for our fabulous club and its processes? I can’t think of a description that would get past the administrators.

[Henry]

10 minutes ago, Simple Red said:

I was ahead of the game. I rang the club a month ago and was told that I had to call Supporter services at 10am today to move my seat. I spent an hour on the phone queuing, having hit the call button. I was 20th in the queue. Eventually a very nice lady answered and I soon found out that it was a difficult process, due to me having paid by direct debit. She completed the process and told me that it would have been easier to do it online. I said that I was doing what I had been told and she said that it wasn’t communicated very well by the club! My mate is trying to move seats online and it won’t accept the £1.25 fee. It appears that neither of us was ahead of the game!

Whereas Tottenham fans say that their club is so “Spursy”, what would be the correct term for our fabulous club and its processes? I can’t think of a description that would get past the administrators.

‘Shitty’

[Jacs]

23 minutes ago, Henry said:

‘Shitty’

Harsh but probably fair

[glynriley]

44 minutes ago, Simple Red said:

I was ahead of the game. I rang the club a month ago and was told that I had to call Supporter services at 10am today to move my seat. I spent an hour on the phone queuing, having hit the call button. I was 20th in the queue. Eventually a very nice lady answered and I soon found out that it was a difficult process, due to me having paid by direct debit. She completed the process and told me that it would have been easier to do it online. I said that I was doing what I had been told and she said that it wasn’t communicated very well by the club! My mate is trying to move seats online and it won’t accept the £1.25 fee. It appears that neither of us was ahead of the game!

Whereas Tottenham fans say that their club is so “Spursy”, what would be the correct term for our fabulous club and its processes? I can’t think of a description that would get past the administrators.

Colour me surprised.

[Silvio Dante]

Story from the club on Twitter and the website. Copious quotes from Marshall but missing one detail 

 

[frenchred]

2 hours ago, phantom said:

or those that are aware of the chaotic fixture schedule ahead and are not buying because of that?

I still ask how people suddenly think the football is all of a sudden any worse than compared to the vast majority in the past

Because meetings discuss sensitive and private information and not for me to disclose

Wasn't aimed at you phants, it was aimed at the guy who said the info was divulged at senior reds

[paignton red]

54 minutes ago, Simple Red said:

I was ahead of the game. I rang the club a month ago and was told that I had to call Supporter services at 10am today to move my seat. I spent an hour on the phone queuing, having hit the call button. I was 20th in the queue. Eventually a very nice lady answered and I soon found out that it was a difficult process, due to me having paid by direct debit. She completed the process and told me that it would have been easier to do it online. I said that I was doing what I had been told and she said that it wasn’t communicated very well by the club! My mate is trying to move seats online and it won’t accept the £1.25 fee. It appears that neither of us was ahead of the game!

Whereas Tottenham fans say that their club is so “Spursy”, what would be the correct term for our fabulous club and its processes? I can’t think of a description that would get past the administrators.

Booby ...

[Marvin]

Seats moved. 53 minutes in the queue, and a minute to sort out and confirmation email received.  No fee charged.

[Davefevs]

So, as of last week, over 8,000 STs sold
 

(FBC pod the source / Gavin Marshall)

[REDOXO]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

So, as of last week, over 8,000 STs sold
 

(FBC pod the source / Gavin Marshall)

Is that about a 15-20% drop on last season Dave?

[Wedontplayinblue]

15 hours ago, frenchred said:

Why don't you?

On average 3000 season ticket holders per game do not attend, this has increased a lot since covid. 

This data was given by the club to the senior reds meal. 

[Swede]

I've renewed my ticket. Its a 50 - 60 mile round trip for me and I still work so I can't make all of the games especially some midweek games.

By renewing my season ticket I am supporting the club whether I attend all of the matches or not, its my choice. I really can't understand all of the fuss with people not attending and leaving seats empty. There's usually other areas not occupied so what's the problem? Non attendees are counted in the attendance anyway and if its a high profile match them I'm sure the non attendees would be minimal.

[Topper 123]

37 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So, as of last week, over 8,000 STs sold
 

(FBC pod the source / Gavin Marshall)

After the seat movers are included it’ll be about 10000 before general sale then a steady trickle over the summer plus half season tickets at Christmas will see us close to 15000 of this season COYR 

[eardun]

15 minutes ago, Swede said:

I've renewed my ticket. Its a 50 - 60 mile round trip for me and I still work so I can't make all of the games especially some midweek games.

By renewing my season ticket I am supporting the club whether I attend all of the matches or not, its my choice. I really can't understand all of the fuss with people not attending and leaving seats empty. There's usually other areas not occupied so what's the problem? Non attendees are counted in the attendance anyway and if its a high profile match them I'm sure the non attendees would be minimal.

I don’t have an issue with it either. What would be good though is if as some point City could launch a site where you could make your seat available to purchase by other fans when you can’t attend (as some other clubs do). Fans won’t always have a friend or family member who can go to the match concerned so the current forwarding option could not be used - a ticket exchange site would widen the pool of people who could take the seat. 

[Red-Robbo]

19 minutes ago, Swede said:

I've renewed my ticket. Its a 50 - 60 mile round trip for me and I still work so I can't make all of the games especially some midweek games.

By renewing my season ticket I am supporting the club whether I attend all of the matches or not, its my choice. I really can't understand all of the fuss with people not attending and leaving seats empty. There's usually other areas not occupied so what's the problem? Non attendees are counted in the attendance anyway and if its a high profile match them I'm sure the non attendees would be minimal.

My view as well. It's supposed to be an entertainment option, not being in the fricking Army!  If you can't go, you can't go.

I missed three home games this season and haven't had any away days - which is very unusual. But work, holidays, family, comes first.

I've renewed. I always do. My dad had a season ticket for almost 50 years and I hope I will too. 

[Roger Red Hat]

'The successful role out of digital tickets'.

Mine hasn't worked once! Always have to be flashed in by the operative at the turnstile.

[BrizzleRed]

20 minutes ago, eardun said:

I don’t have an issue with it either. What would be good though is if as some point City could launch a site where you could make your seat available to purchase by other fans when you can’t attend (as some other clubs do). Fans won’t always have a friend or family member who can go to the match concerned so the current forwarding option could not be used - a ticket exchange site would widen the pool of people who could take the seat. 

That single match sale of vacant ST seats is the perfect solution.  That would involve some extra effort from the club to make that possible though.  At present, they seem to prefer putting their effort into pointing a finger at non-attendees, even though the club have already been paid for that seat.

The only time these vacant seats really become a problem is on the rare occasions of a sell-out match.

Seems like a lot of noise from the club about nothing.

[Cov 77]

1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

Is that about a 15-20% drop on last season Dave?

That was last week , it was 10k sold a year ago tomorrow so we will see soon as a lot will have done it late for various reasons , I do hope any drop is not greeted on here with glee , we are City fans at the end of the day and more people in the ground helps us whatever people’s agendas 

[Silvio Dante]

34 minutes ago, eardun said:

I don’t have an issue with it either. What would be good though is if as some point City could launch a site where you could make your seat available to purchase by other fans when you can’t attend (as some other clubs do). Fans won’t always have a friend or family member who can go to the match concerned so the current forwarding option could not be used - a ticket exchange site would widen the pool of people who could take the seat. 

It will happen - but will only happen when games sell out constantly. From the clubs perspective they’ve sold your seat to you and have the money for it - they’d rather sell the other seats in the ground then have to resell yours (and possibly give you a cut)

[Davefevs]

39 minutes ago, Topper 123 said:

After the seat movers are included it’ll be about 10000 before general sale then a steady trickle over the summer plus half season tickets at Christmas will see us close to 15000 of this season COYR 

I’m sure the “over 8000” isn’t the final number for all the reasons you suggest.  Although a week ago you yourself said it was 12000.  But we’ll pretend you never posted that, eh?

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

Is that about a 15-20% drop on last season Dave?

I dunno.  I think someone posted last week the various comms that went out last season as a comparison.

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, Davefevs said:

I dunno.  I think someone posted last week the various comms that went out last season as a comparison.

I’d be surprised if we didn’t hit 10k - the 8k mentioned by Marshall was as at Thursday, and many left it late to renew as we know.

But I’d be equally surprised if there was a large number of seat moves. People will be reticent to move from the South Stand as they can’t get back there now. Possibly a few hundred overall.

The number of 15000 mentioned as this seasons figure on the pod and ambition to grow it do feel unlikely for a number of reasons. Ultimately ST holders miss odd games but the volume missing from several recent games does suggest a degree of disillusion.

My guess is we hit around 12-13k sales overall. Down on last year due to several reasons:

- Disillusion and dissatisfaction with club hierarchy (think that’s #1)

- Cost of living crisis remains ongoing and it becomes a necessary or reasonable sacrifice

- Unhappiness with management/style in some quarters 

- The new TV deal (I think that’s a tiny factor - the club haven’t publicised and it won’t be known unless you look)

It’s still a decent number and bigger than our neighbours capacity. Won’t be any joy from me if the number is down but if the hierarchy think the main reason is anything but them then I think they’re probably not reading the room

[Sleepy1968]

16 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

It will happen - but will only happen when games sell out constantly. From the clubs perspective they’ve sold your seat to you and have the money for it - they’d rather sell the other seats in the ground then have to resell yours (and possibly give you a cut)

I heard on The Price of Football recently, that one club were taking your season ticket back - or at least not allowing you to renew - if you missed three games.

If we ever get that arrogant I'm off. I don't care that we'd probably be in the Premier League for that to have a chance of happening.

[Topper 123]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m sure the “over 8000” isn’t the final number for all the reasons you suggest.  Although a week ago you yourself said it was 12000.  But we’ll pretend you never posted that, eh?

Oh yes I did I was told it was estimated they’d be around that figure and so what 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Topper 123 said:

Oh yes I did I was told it was estimated they’d be around that figure and so what 

So what indeed.  It was just the conviction in your post, it stood out!

[Ian M]

14 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’d be surprised if we didn’t hit 10k - the 8k mentioned by Marshall was as at Thursday, and many left it late to renew as we know.

But I’d be equally surprised if there was a large number of seat moves. People will be reticent to move from the South Stand as they can’t get back there now. Possibly a few hundred overall.

The number of 15000 mentioned as this seasons figure on the pod and ambition to grow it do feel unlikely for a number of reasons. Ultimately ST holders miss odd games but the volume missing from several recent games does suggest a degree of disillusion.

My guess is we hit around 12-13k sales overall. Down on last year due to several reasons:

- Disillusion and dissatisfaction with club hierarchy (think that’s #1)

- Cost of living crisis remains ongoing and it becomes a necessary or reasonable sacrifice

- Unhappiness with management/style in some quarters 

- The new TV deal (I think that’s a tiny factor - the club haven’t publicised and it won’t be known unless you look)

It’s still a decent number and bigger than our neighbours capacity. Won’t be any joy from me if the number is down but if the hierarchy think the main reason is anything but them then I think they’re probably not reading the room

I also think a small factor to add to your point about the Cost of Living crisis, there may be non-season ticket holders who fancy picking one up but because the club are saving the freed spots in the South Stand for individual matchday sales, are priced out of it.

[Sleepy1968]

35 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

'The successful role out of digital tickets'.

Mine hasn't worked once! Always have to be flashed in by the operative at the turnstile.

I sometimes have to wait a few seconds or try it again, but it's always worked for me eventually.

Have you asked to have a physical card next season cus that process seems to be a pain. Unless you like getting flashed of course.

[BCFC1512]

So I can’t move seats in the south stand?? Showing as nothing available, surely it’s not sold out!!

[Ian M]

Just now, BCFC1512 said:

So I can’t move seats in the south stand?? Showing as nothing available, surely it’s not sold out!!

No new sales are allowed. If you're already in the SS, you might get some success if you directly contact Supporter Services as common sense dictates you'd just be moving from one part to another. But do they have common sense?

[REDOXO]

29 minutes ago, Cov 77 said:

That was last week , it was 10k sold a year ago tomorrow so we will see soon as a lot will have done it late for various reasons , I do hope any drop is not greeted on here with glee , we are City fans at the end of the day and more people in the ground helps us whatever people’s agendas 

Glee? Not sure that too many could be accused of that if sales are down (There are always one or two odd balls on any subject)

I agree the more fans in the ground the better.

Nonetheless what happened this season in respect of the firing of the previous manager, making statements that were plainly not accurate and the employing of a new one giving him a very clear promotion mandate comes at several prices. 
 

The main one being many will hang on to their money until BT JL and to an extent LM have not only spoken about intent for the season, but have been seen to have backed that up in some way. I think that’s fair! 
 

I haven’t listened to the FBC  podcast out today, yet! But I’m hoping that the vocalization of that intent is clear
 

 

 

[Roger Red Hat]

9 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

I sometimes have to wait a few seconds or try it again, but it's always worked for me eventually.

Have you asked to have a physical card next season cus that process seems to be a pain. Unless you like getting flashed of course.

I like not having a physical card, and my phone is always with me. As long as they keep letting me in I'm ok. I've tried it all ways round, cover on cover off, phoned them up, been to the ticket office, all no use. The reader on the turnstile acknowledges it but doesn't turn green!

[elhombrecito]

2 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

I like not having a physical card, and my phone is always with me. As long as they keep letting me in I'm ok. I've tried it all ways round, cover on cover off, phoned them up, been to the ticket office, all no use. The reader on the turnstile acknowledges it but doesn't turn green!

Have you tried using the QR code and just scanning that? @Frankie'sFingers has the same problem as you but simply scans the QR code, and it works absolutely fine.

[Roger Red Hat]

6 minutes ago, elhombrecito said:

Have you tried using the QR code and just scanning that? @Frankie'sFingers has the same problem as you but simply scans the QR code, and it works absolutely fine.

Where is the QR code?

[elhombrecito]

3 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Where is the QR code?

I only know how to do this on Google Wallet, but assume it's similar for Apple. 

But when you click into your season ticket, it says "Show Code" at the bottom. Click this and a QR code appears that you can use on the barcode scanner.

[Roger Red Hat]

1 minute ago, elhombrecito said:

I only know how to do this on Google Wallet, but assume it's similar for Apple. 

But when you click into your season ticket, it says "Show Code" at the bottom. Click this and a QR code appears that you can use on the barcode scanner.

Mine is in my Apple wallet, and it doesn't have the 'show code' statement! And "SEASON TICKET" is very near the top of the it. Looks like a different design.

[elhombrecito]

4 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Mine is in my Apple wallet, and it doesn't have the 'show code' statement! And "SEASON TICKET" is very near the top of the it. Looks like a different design.

Ah well, I tried 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Will try and extrapolate from last year. Hopefully we are at least in par and a string summer window you never know but..It'll mainly be posted in Tweets.

Spring 2023

Next section should contain the relevant 2024 landmarks...

Spring 2024

 

 

Edited April 24 by Mr Popodopolous

[Roger Red Hat]

3 minutes ago, elhombrecito said:

Ah well, I tried 

Yep, thanks.

[frenchred]

1 hour ago, Topper 123 said:

Oh yes I did I was told it was estimated they’d be around that figure and so what 

Probably means your talking shit again?

[phantom]

2 hours ago, eardun said:

I don’t have an issue with it either. What would be good though is if as some point City could launch a site where you could make your seat available to purchase by other fans when you can’t attend (as some other clubs do). Fans won’t always have a friend or family member who can go to the match concerned so the current forwarding option could not be used - a ticket exchange site would widen the pool of people who could take the seat. 

As I have touched on previously, there are ongoing discussions between the SC&T and club, these will ramp up over the coming weeks and months but will depend on the buy in from our board.

One of the items raised already is this

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

It will happen - but will only happen when games sell out constantly. From the clubs perspective they’ve sold your seat to you and have the money for it - they’d rather sell the other seats in the ground then have to resell yours (and possibly give you a cut)

In current discussions it has been raised that if if happens it will be from the point of being unavailable to attend the game

1 hour ago, Sleepy1968 said:

I heard on The Price of Football recently, that one club were taking your season ticket back - or at least not allowing you to renew - if you missed three games.

If we ever get that arrogant I'm off. I don't care that we'd probably be in the Premier League for that to have a chance of happening.

That is likely to be a team that has a buyback scheme and "sells out" but has unused seats

I would say it is a good thing if someone doesn't attend but also doesn't offer their seat to be resold

[Sleepy1968]

4 minutes ago, phantom said:

As I have touched on previously, there are ongoing discussions between the SC&T and club, these will ramp up over the coming weeks and months but will depend on the buy in from our board.

One of the items raised already is this

In current discussions it has been raised that if if happens it will be from the point of being unavailable to attend the game

That is likely to be a team that has a buyback scheme and "sells out" but has unused seats

I would say it is a good thing if someone doesn't attend but also doesn't offer their seat to be resold

I have a *feeling* that it included the ticket being resold officially as non attendance by the holder. I do remember thinking, 'Jesus, that can't be right, can it?'

Unfortunately, there are too many TPOF pods to go back and check. I might see if anyone does show transcripts that I can search ...

[Andy082005]

5 hours ago, phantom said:

or those that are aware of the chaotic fixture schedule ahead and are not buying because of that?

I still ask how people suddenly think the football is all of a sudden any worse than compared to the vast majority in the past

Because meetings discuss sensitive and private information and not for me to disclose

A majority of people - If they really wanted to go - they would. My job has seriously impacted me in recent years but if I really wanted to get to games, I could 

And the football isn’t any worse. You are right. However I don’t think that’s why people are staying away. They are staying away because it’s not got any better and there has been nothing to suggest things will improve next year. People are sick of the constant bullshit and bluster that comes from Tinnion and Junior

They are both clueless and it’s been widely accepted that as long as those two cabbages are at the helm, we will never move above mid-table in this league 

I’m sure the “a true supporter would support never do that” brigade will be out in full force but **** them. Until people start speaking with their feet nothing will ever change - why would it?

 

[Lew-T]

 

[elhombrecito]

1 minute ago, Lew-T said:

 

Surely, considering there's no new season tickets being sold in the South Stand, even if only one person renewed, it would technically be sold out...

[Red Army 75]

Decent to be fair. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

12k at this stage, that is an improvement?

@Topper 123 may have had better info than assumed.

A late rush between last week and now? GM mentioned 8,000.

 

[Davefevs]

Fair play to the late splurge!

[Aaron-Bcfc]

4 minutes ago, elhombrecito said:

Surely, considering there's no new season tickets being sold in the South Stand, even if only one person renewed, it would technically be sold out...

Yep very poor from the club to try and spin that to try and generate further sales. 

[JBFC II]

More season tickets sold than the capacity of that other club across the river and a sell out crowd for the last game of the season.

Considering how frustrating things have been this season, fair play to all those making such big financial commitments. Let's just hope the board realise our support doesn't detract from the discontent around so many decisions that have been made

[Davefevs]

Just now, JBFC II said:

More season tickets sold than the capacity of that other club across the river and a sell out crowd for the last game of the season.

Considering how frustrating things have been this season, fair play to all those making such big financial commitments. Let's just hope the board realise our support doesn't detract from the discontent around so many decisions that have been made

OTIB 

QED

[Stockwood gate]

1 hour ago, BCFC1512 said:

So I can’t move seats in the south stand?? Showing as nothing available, surely it’s not sold out!!

Yes you can but only by telephone I did it this afternoon no problem at all, moved a block over 

[ExiledAjax]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Fair play to the late splurge!

The club must be so happy that we've managed to put a little run of results just at the right time.

[Topper 123]

1 hour ago, frenchred said:

Probably means your talking shit again?

Oh yes 

[Topper 123]

22 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

 

No can’t be I’m talking shit again

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

The club must be so happy that we've managed to put a little run of results just at the right time.

Not just results but improved, intent and performances in 3 if not 4..

I don't think the Swansea result e.g. would've had people rushing back, this six game run has had 3 if not 4 positive performances too and that can inspire hope.

[Topper 123]

19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

12k at this stage, that is an improvement?

@Topper 123 may have had better info than assumed.

A late rush between last week and now? GM mentioned 8,000.

 

Thank you sir

[Redshorts]

3 minutes ago, Topper 123 said:

Thank you sir

Credit where it's due, you called it. People tried to knock you down but you come good! 

[mozo]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not just results but improved, intent and performances in 3 if not 4..

I don't think the Swansea result e.g. would've had people rushing back, this six game run has had 3 if not 4 positive performances too and that can inspire hope.

It's also possible that many fans were like me in thinking that City weren't as bad pre-Easter as some were making out. 

Who knows 

I'm sure there are lots of factors, but the main one could be that the matchday is a big part of their lives.

[Ian M]

23 minutes ago, Stockwood gate said:

Yes you can but only by telephone I did it this afternoon no problem at all, moved a block over 

Yay, common sense exists in Supporter Services!

[cidercity1987]

12k wow our fanbase is too big for this bloody club 

[Silvio Dante]

4 minutes ago, mozo said:

It's also possible that many fans were like me in thinking that City weren't as bad pre-Easter as some were making out. 

Who knows 

I'm sure there are lots of factors, but the main one could be that the matchday is a big part of their lives.

I think the last point is entirely it. I’ve said I’m pissed off with the hierarchy- and I am - and still want change. But I was here before them and I’ll be here after them. It isn’t like a normal product 

[W-S-M Seagull]

22 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I don't think the Swansea result e.g. would've had people rushing back, this six game run has had 3 if not 4 positive performances too and that can inspire hope.

The Swansea game was the final nail in the coffin for me. 

I remember just sitting there thinking how incredibly shite it was. Yes we won but it was probably one of the worst games I've ever watched where we've won.