Who Will Be The New Old Heads?

[SecretSam]

'Senior' doesn't necessarily mean 'old'.

Experience is the key.

Vyner is 'senior', as he's played a lot of games.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'd say Vyner and some others are mid range experience. The higher level stuff is or can be invaluable.

The high end experience of James, King, Weimann..

Williams being regularly and in peak years is another issue.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

34 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Naismith 

Wells 

Cornick 

James 

King 

Williams 

Seems to be where we are at right now.

Yup at a stretch you could add Vyner and Dickie but we seem lite on senior pros in defence and midfield.

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'd say Vyner and some others are mid range experience. The higher level stuff is or can be invaluable.

The high end experience of James, King, Weimann..

Williams being regularly and in peak years is another issue.

Yep, there’s a difference between how many games played in total and at what level.

Just gonna have to wait and see how it pans out.

 

[GrahamC]

11 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Yup at a stretch you could add Vyner and Dickie but we seem lite on senior pros in defence and midfield.

It really isn’t a stretch to add Dickie (28) & with over 150 Championship games behind him or Vyner (27) with nearly 200 as senior pros.

[Davefevs]

[SecretSam]

45 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

What about total appearances, @Davefevs? That's the real metric that matters.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, SecretSam said:

What about total appearances, @Davefevs? That's the real metric that matters.

Feel free to use Google!

[SecretSam]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Feel free to use Google!

That's a bit salty, Dave, I feel hurt. I was assuming your vast knowledge meant this was just a click away.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

That's a bit salty, Dave, I feel hurt. I was assuming your vast knowledge meant this was just a click away.

Nah, City-only in my spreadies…

[SecretSam]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Nah, City-only in my spreadies…

TBH, that conjures up an image that is quite distressing

[INCRED]

21 hours ago, SecretSam said:

'Senior' doesn't necessarily mean 'old'.

Experience is the key.

Vyner is 'senior', as he's played a lot of games.

I’m not sure age qualifies a player to be that leader or old head that is probably required. Certain players are natural leaders and can galvanise a squad by their actions and not just what they say on or off the pitch. 
 

LM quite clearly sees Knight as a leader having given him the captains armband on numerous occasions but I am sure there are others in the squad that also help guide the younger players. With King & James gone, I would like to see Williams retained as he appears to be a big character who is well liked. 
 

Dickie, Wells, Naismith & maybe McCrorrie are the ones who are likely to be the others who could step up regards passing on experience to those coming into the squad over the summer with Bird, Murphy & Stokes all new to the squad and bedding them in over pre season 

I also think we shouldn’t underestimate 2 former players at the club who are in important roles Tinnion and Scotty Murray 

Murray is not only a character but he is someone all the players trust & enjoy having around 

Im sure LM and the coaching staff have their own ideas on the dynamic of the squad and will manage it wisely 

[ExiledAjax]

On 26/05/2024 at 12:52, Mr Popodopolous said:

The higher level stuff is or can be invaluable.

How? Why? Why does a Premier League game give a player better "experience" than a Championship one?

On 26/05/2024 at 12:52, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'd say Vyner and some others are mid range experience.

Vyner played the most minutes of all CBs in 2022/23, he did another 3,000 this season. He's 27 and has nearly 16,000 minutes of Championship level football under his belt, across 6 main seasons. Plus 1,300 minutes of SPL with Aberdeen. That's the best part of 200 full 90 minute games at roughly our level.

If that isn't experienced then what is?

Cornick, Knight, Dickie, O'Leary, Mehmeti, TGH, Naismith all have either 80+ appearances or 10,000 minutes at this level. Conway and Williams as well although we may lose both before September. Wells of course is streets ahead with nearly 400 appearances and nearly 25,000 minutes.

It's not a squad of rookies. It's not a young squad anymore (whatever Tinnion wants us to believe).

The excuse of "no experience", "still learning" or "young squad" won't wash next season. It just won't. 

Edited May 27 by ExiledAjax

[Davefevs]

Age does not equal experience

Experience does not equal leadership

Etc.

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

How? Why? Why does a Premier League game give a player better "experience" than a Championship one?

Vyner played the most minutes of all CBs in 2022/23, he did another 3,000 this season. He's 27 and has nearly 16,000 minutes of Championship level football under his belt, across 6 main seasons. Plus 1,300 minutes of SPL with Aberdeen. That's the best part of 200 full 90 minute games at roughly our level.

If that isn't experienced then what is?

Cornick, Knight, Dickie, O'Leary, Mehmeti, TGH, Naismith all have either 80+ appearances or 10,000 minutes at this level. Conway and Williams as well although we may lose both before September. Wells of course is streets ahead with nearly 400 appearances and nearly 25,000 minutes.

It's not a squad of rookies. It's not a young squad anymore (whatever Tinnion wants us to believe).

The excuse of "no experience", "still learning" or "young squad" won't wash next season. It just won't. 

Experience of a higher level or promotion to a higher level can really help to bring young players on.

I'm thinking that the development of Murphy, Stokes, SPH let alone those already here would be helped by James on a 2 year deal, King coaching and so on.

Tough times, the experience can fall back on.

You need a balance and certainly I think we lack in certain areas.

Edited May 27 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Age does not equal experience

Experience does not equal leadership

Etc.

Certainly experience is more about the number of games played so a player who makes the first team at 18 might be very experienced by the time they are 23.

But the quality of a player's experience can also be important factor. There is value in having players who have played at a higher level, been coached by a top manager and so on.

Whether the club wants that profile of player is open to question. What for instance if they have more knowhow than the technical director? What if they use their knowledge to challenge the status quo?

A young player grateful to be plucked from the lower leagues is less of a threat so to speak.

[ExiledAjax]

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Experience of a higher level or promotion to a higher level can really help to bring young players on.

I'm thinking that the development of Murphy, Stokes, SPH let alone those already here would be helped by James on a 2 year deal, King coaching and so on.

How? Do we have proof? Why does it need to be experience of a higher level in order to provide something to fall back on? 

Do we know that young players that spend time with ex-premier league players develop faster/better than those that don't? Or those that "merely" spend time in the company of Championship veterans like Dickie, Wells and Vyner.

I just feel like "PL experience is good" is one of those things that enough people say to make it true...but it's quite possibly just words. 

Edited May 27 by ExiledAjax

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

How? Do we have proof? Why does it need to be experience of a higher level in order to provide something to fall back on? 

Do we know that young players that spend time with ex-premier league players develop faster/better than those that don't? Or those that "merely" spend time in the company of Championship veterans like Dickie, Wells and Vyner.

I just feel like "PL experience is good" is one of those things that enough people say to make it true...but it's quite possibly just words. 

It isn't PL experience entirely, you can also include top end Championship, International or other top division experience ie Italy, Spain, Germany, France, Portugal say. We had quite a bit in the Lee Johnson era too, but unfortunately on one level we had Lee Johnson!

That aside, Dickie and Vyner and Wells I like in this regard. See also Naismith but I dare say Semenyo and Conway learnt from Wells, Weimann, Martin, dare say Scott learnt from King and James- all good habits. Maybe I'm overstating matters but my gut feeling is and remains that the balance is flawed.

Edited May 27 by Mr Popodopolous

[JAWS]

Think we will regret not giving James a new deal

On 26/05/2024 at 13:38, Davefevs said:

Atkinson & Dickie both with better goal scoring records than Cornick. :laugh:

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

How? Do we have proof? Why does it need to be experience of a higher level in order to provide something to fall back on? 

Do we know that young players that spend time with ex-premier league players develop faster/better than those that don't? Or those that "merely" spend time in the company of Championship veterans like Dickie, Wells and Vyner.

I just feel like "PL experience is good" is one of those things that enough people say to make it true...but it's quite possibly just words. 

The key word is can. Many if not most players are not students of the game so wouldn't add value.

But if you can bring in one with high level experience and knowhow who is keen to share their knowledge it can be valuable. We've heard as much from our young players about Andy King for instance.

[ExiledAjax]

20 hours ago, chinapig said:

The key word is can. Many if not most players are not students of the game so wouldn't add value.

But if you can bring in one with high level experience and knowhow who is keen to share their knowledge it can be valuable. We've heard as much from our young players about Andy King for instance.

Yes. I'd agree that it's dependent on the player and their specific personality rather than simply the number of games/minutes they played at X level.

Think I just read @Mr Popodopolous posts as saying that anyone with any PL experience was good and without anyone like that we are in trouble, which I'd disagree with.

For example if we signed Antony then I don't think he'd be useful despite having PL experience (of sorts ). Get someone like...I don't know... Christian Eriksen maybe, and it's a different story.*

*Note that I do not know the character of these people precisely, not am I suggesting that either are realistic or desirable transfer targets.

[Lanterne Rouge]

Joey Barton has PL experience.

Just saying.

[Henry]

On 27/05/2024 at 14:19, JAWS said:

Think we will regret not giving James a new deal

Atkinson & Dickie both with better goal scoring records than Cornick.

Max O’Leary smokes the 3 of them combined though.

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yes. I'd agree that it's dependent on the player and their specific personality rather than simply the number of games/minutes they played at X level.

Think I just read @Mr Popodopolous posts as saying that anyone with any PL experience was good and without anyone like that we are in trouble, which I'd disagree with.

For example if we signed Antony then I don't think he'd be useful despite having PL experience (of sorts ). Get someone like...I don't know... Christian Eriksen maybe, and it's a different story.*

*Note that I do not know the character of these people precisely, not am I suggesting that either are realistic or desirable transfer targets.

We'll be weaker without it IMO, lack of James. We'll see..the mood music isn't good.

I'm not especially optimistic right now, PL experience or lack of, not the be all and end all but a bit of a bellwether, an indicator.

I'll caveat it, I don't think we are heading for disaster more that the current direction of travel feels like we will be not moving forward as we perhaps should.

On paper there are positives to take..but are we set to build on the base in the right way is a concern of mine.

Edited May 29 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We'll be weaker without it IMO, lack of James. We'll see..the mood music isn't good.

I'm not especially optimistic right now, PL experience or lack of, not the be all and end all but a bit of a bellwether, an indicator.

I'll caveat it, I don't think we are heading for disaster more that the current direction of travel feels like we will be not moving forward as we perhaps should.

On paper there are positives to take..but are we set to build on the base in the right way is a concern of mine.

For me when I think of PL experience it means having experience at an elite level. Having the knowledge of what it takes to perform at that elite level day in and day out. 

Zak Vyner may have experience at this level. But he doesn't have experience of that elite level. He doesn't have experience of being in a promotion battle etc. 

[redsquirrel]

5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We'll be weaker without it IMO, lack of James. We'll see..the mood music isn't good.

I'm not especially optimistic right now, PL experience or lack of, not the be all and end all but a bit of a bellwether, an indicator.

I'll caveat it, I don't think we are heading for disaster more that the current direction of travel feels like we will be not moving forward as we perhaps should.

On paper there are positives to take..but are we set to build on the base in the right way is a concern of mine.

feels to me that next season is going to be built on hope. a lot of the team spirit will need repairing in places with new directions to take on aswell.  think it will take more than one season to get any where near the top 6, unless of course we get shocked by the incomings in the next 6 weeks. the lost experience will be way out of our reach to buy, more should have been done to keep what we had,especially if williams goes too