Tommy Conway - Signs for 'Boro- Official

[REDOXO]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

100%.

He, like Nige and like any other manager that may end up here has a shit hand to work with in terms of two in particular and a generally sketchy structure.

No dedicated specific CEO for a £30-40m turnover business (forget football a sec) I mean really.

 

[Simon bristol]

4 minutes ago, bpexile said:

Maybe so but if he was in fact offered a reduced contract then the club has forced this stalemate, imho.

Once again it makes me think people at the top at BCFC are clueless 

They may be clueless, but aside from trying to sell him sooner, which they may have, they have been stuck knowing he will run his contract down, the contract being reduced, if thats true, will have made little difference cause he wasnt looking to sign it anyway.

also, knowing he is going to be sold, they cant play him in any friendlies due to the risk of injury,, we could still lose a few million if a transfer doesnt happen, but having him hurt himself against exeter would be a disaster, and that by default means he shouldn’t be invited to join the senior squad, give his place to someone who wants to be here and the game time to fally and armstrong!

[George Rs]

Realistically it’s a pretty decent move for all involved, the only negative is the way we’ve handled his departure which has significantly decreased his value. 

He was never going to be near Semenyo money with only a year left on his contract but before the transfer window I thought he was worth around £5m and still do. Imo we could have got that figure had we dealt with the situation differently. On the flip side we’ve had some serious money from academy product sales over the last 2 years so that might’ve overinflated some peoples (myself included) value of him. 

Will be interesting how he fits in at Boro especially if Hackney ends up leaving. If Conway goes and Twine/a no10 comes in I still think we improved over the summer both in terms of quality and squad value. 

Either way im excited for the football season to be back, bring on the first game of the season away at Hull. COYR! 

[bpexile]

13 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

They may be clueless, but aside from trying to sell him sooner, which they may have, they have been stuck knowing he will run his contract down, the contract being reduced, if thats true, will have made little difference cause he wasnt looking to sign it anyway.

also, knowing he is going to be sold, they cant play him in any friendlies due to the risk of injury,, we could still lose a few million if a transfer doesnt happen, but having him hurt himself against exeter would be a disaster, and that by default means he shouldn’t be invited to join the senior squad, give his place to someone who wants to be here and the game time to fally and armstrong!

I don't disagree with most of what you've posted but I still regard them as clueless & things could have been handled much better BUT & it's a big BUT, I don't think any of us know all that has happened & never will know the truth, only what the clueless choose to tell us .

[REDOXO]

10 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

They may be clueless, but aside from trying to sell him sooner, which they may have, they have been stuck knowing he will run his contract down, the contract being reduced, if thats true, will have made little difference cause he wasnt looking to sign it anyway.

also, knowing he is going to be sold, they cant play him in any friendlies due to the risk of injury,, we could still lose a few million if a transfer doesnt happen, but having him hurt himself against exeter would be a disaster, and that by default means he shouldn’t be invited to join the senior squad, give his place to someone who wants to be here and the game time to fally and armstrong!

I agree with a lot here. But just for giggles how much do you think the kid has lost out on by standing his ground. 15k a week maybe over the last year? Whatever it is it’s a lot!

[sh1t_ref_again]

37 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Whether it’s true or not, whether you believe it to be false, at least ask yourself….why would negotiations stop completely.  Especially if you are happy to accept there is no interest in him.  He’s given up a year’s salary at a I creased wage.  The manager also says he has no problem with Tommy.

In my head it doesn’t add up.

This isn’t “Death in Paradise”, that it’s the same story every week.

 

Turn it around the other way, why would the club reduce an offer and maybe save a few thousand a week, when by getting him to sign a new contract they have protected and potentially increased in value of a multi million pound asset.

Sorry does not make any sense.

Negotiations could easily have stopped when, TC has said he will not be signing as wants to move away. That is different to asking for a transfer and the implications that makes to contract payments.

I know it's nice and popular to knock the club and any rumour that can be jumped on and given as fact to assist this therefore must be true. Not saying someone was told in good faith, but still does not make it true.

[JoeAman08]

It is a slight step up but at what cost? How much more will he be making from what we offered? What will his opportunity look like? They have forwards at Boro and decent wide players when fit. Him and his agent got this wrong imo.
 

Sure, I’d have definitely heard out Celtic last summer but we were always going to ask probably too much for them to afford(they can afford it but would have been first choice type of money for them and not a first choice player yet). That isn’t on us. We get good fees for our players so you can’t be upset at the valuation. It should have been new deal and get his head down and work for another season or two. 
 

2m plus add ons pays for SA. I think SA has a much higher ceiling than TC. Just TC has a higher floor. You can look at it as swapping wantaway players. We have replaced TC with a similar aged and experienced player. It has worked out. The TC scenario of head turned and not moving and not wanting a new deal has probably happened to every professional club in the world. It happens and we move on

[JoeAman08]

12 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Turn it around the other way, why would the club reduce an offer and maybe save a few thousand a week, when by getting him to sign a new contract they have protected and potentially increased in value of a multi million pound asset.

Sorry does not make any sense.

Negotiations could easily have stopped when, TC has said he will not be signing as wants to move away. That is different to asking for a transfer and the implications that makes to contract payments.

I know it's nice and popular to knock the club and any rumour that can be jumped on and given as fact to assist this therefore must be true. Not saying someone was told in good faith, but still does not make it true.

Bingo. Danny Coles the agent. From Bristol and played at city for a long time. Would be easy for him to spread the city changed the offer. It sounds like an agent thing to save face. So I don’t doubt people got this info from a source connected to football. Just doesn’t make it the truth. Which we probably will never know.
 

It was a situation that has months of events leading up to a bad ending. Not the first nor last time something like this will happen. A good conclusion for both player and club even if it wasn’t the one envisioned a year ago 

[Jeez]

42 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I agree with a lot here. But just for giggles how much do you think the kid has lost out on by standing his ground. 15k a week maybe over the last year? Whatever it is it’s a lot!

Good point, he’d need 5k more a week over 3 years just to recoup the lost wages or an equivalent signing bonus.

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Turn it around the other way, why would the club reduce an offer and maybe save a few thousand a week, when by getting him to sign a new contract they have protected and potentially increased in value of a multi million pound asset.

Sorry does not make any sense.

Negotiations could easily have stopped when, TC has said he will not be signing as wants to move away. That is different to asking for a transfer and the implications that makes to contract payments.

I know it's nice and popular to knock the club and any rumour that can be jumped on and given as fact to assist this therefore must be true. Not saying someone was told in good faith, but still does not make it true.

The simple answer that I have (not saying it’s right) is that it was an offer whilst discussions went on with Celtic.  As soon as they knew Celtic wouldn’t match hit the right amount, then they didn’t need to offer Tommy as much to stay.

That’s plausible isn’t it?

Your suggestion is too.

Its not popular to knock the club, sometimes the club give us good reason to do so.  If you read a lot of posts, you’ll see praise too.  There are some posters on both sides of the fence who show no balance at all.  Depends what you’re looking for!

At the end of day, whatever the truth, we are likely to be losing a player for less than we should have.  There are multiple dynamics to that valuation and it’s changed over time and as events happened.

I hope we can eke as much out of Boro or whoever as possible.

[REDOXO]

1 minute ago, Jeez said:

Good point, he’d need 5k more a week over 3 years just to recoup the lost wages or an equivalent signing bonus.

Exactly. 
 

This is a nasty shitfest that you can extrapolate from ‘just’ the stuff written here! 

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The simple answer that I have (not saying it’s right) is that it was an offer whilst discussions went on with Celtic.  As soon as they knew Celtic wouldn’t match hit the right amount, then they didn’t need to offer Tommy as much to stay.

That’s plausible isn’t it?

Your suggestion is too.

Its not popular to knock the club, sometimes the club give us good reason to do so.  If you read a lot of posts, you’ll see praise too.  There are some posters on both sides of the fence who show no balance at all.  Depends what you’re looking for!

At the end of day, whatever the truth, we are likely to be losing a player for less than we should have.  There are multiple dynamics to that valuation and it’s changed over time and as events happened.

I hope we can eke as much out of Boro or whoever as possible.

Yup

[numbeast]

I don’t have any real problem with Tommy Conway, yes at times he appeared a little on the cocky side but isn’t that a trait you want in a striker? Not knowing anything about the contract we offered or changed so I won’t comment.

But I do see the clubs position. Tommy comes back and remains in the first team, this gives him a another years championship experience. Should he have a good season his stock would have risen, but the club wouldn’t benefit from this. If the rumours are true that Celtic and Rangers have an interest in him but only at the end of his contract we would wind up with £300,000 compensation. If you were 22 and your agent says run down your contract and you’ll get a better deal what would you do?

By putting him back with the U21 with no prospect of playing for the first team he would need to rethink his future. So offers come in for him he is more likely to accept moving on now rather than waste a season in the reserves. I can’t blame the club for trying to force a move where, although we won’t get full market value, we will still get more than the compensation we’d get next summer.

As I said I have no problem with Tommy and will probably clap him if he returns to the Gate (as long as it isn’t with Cardiff). Both sides are trying to do the best for themselves. But like the Twine situation I hope it’s sorted sooner rather than later.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, numbeast said:

I don’t have any real problem with Tommy Conway, yes at times he appeared a little on the cocky side but isn’t that a trait you want in a striker? Not knowing anything about the contract we offered or changed so I won’t comment.

But I do see the clubs position. Tommy comes back and remains in the first team, this gives him a another years championship experience. Should he have a good season his stock would have risen, but the club wouldn’t benefit from this. If the rumours are true that Celtic and Rangers have an interest in him but only at the end of his contract we would wind up with £300,000 compensation. If you were 22 and your agent says run down your contract and you’ll get a better deal what would you do?

By putting him back with the U21 with no prospect of playing for the first team he would need to rethink his future. So offers come in for him he is more likely to accept moving on now rather than waste a season in the reserves. I can’t blame the club for trying to force a move where, although we won’t get full market value, we will still get more than the compensation we’d get next summer.

As I said I have no problem with Tommy and will probably clap him if he returns to the Gate (as long as it isn’t with Cardiff). Both sides are trying to do the best for themselves. But like the Twine situation I hope it’s sorted sooner rather than later.

On your second paragraph, if he had a season that further enhanced his reputation, offers beyond Scotland would be on the table too.  Premier League or Scottish Premier?  I know which one I’d take!!  So, there is benefit to City.  The £350k from Scotland seems to be the only number some fans see next summer.  That’s not the case.

Premier League much more compo, and future add-ons / sell-ons for City too.  Bugger all add-ons if he goes to Scotland.  We’ve narrowed our range of options next summer (assuming he didn’t go this summer).  We should’ve done things to keep this option open.

All imho.

[BasSavage88]

All of this for ******* boro 

[W-S-M Seagull]

27 minutes ago, BasSavage88 said:

All of this for ******* boro 

I'm not 100% sure if he will end up there. 

I think we have put Boros interest out there to drum up interest. Much like we did with Scott and Wolves last season. 

[JAWS]

Think it's quite sad being viewed as lower down the food chain than boro. They haven't had parachute payments for years & we have a much wealthier owner & probably not too dissimilar revenue. Forget history. Its in our hands to change the perception from the outside & thus lose this inferiority complex. 

[fly in the air]

if he goes to Boro then it's for money only in my opinion. Can't be for anything else. if he goes he will have to be replaced with who I am not sure.

[Robbored]

19 minutes ago, fly in the air said:

if he goes to Boro then it's for money only in my opinion. Can't be for anything else. if he goes he will have to be replaced with who I am not sure.

He’s already been replaced. Fally and or Armstrong.

[TDarwall]

36 minutes ago, fly in the air said:

if he goes to Boro then it's for money only in my opinion. Can't be for anything else. if he goes he will have to be replaced with who I am not sure.

I'm sure he'll get a pay rise, but if you gave me £50 to bet on who would get to the top flight sooner, us or Boro, I wouldn't bet us us.

Their recent history, say last 20 years is far more impressive than ours; been in top flight, in major finals, played in Europe etc.

If you're ambitious to get to the Prem, there isn't exactly a compelling argument to stay with us.

As fans we feel that the Lansdown's bet the farm under LJ & are now (excessively?) tightening the belt. Players aren't daft & I'm sure some of them feel the same.

Really don't get the "cocky" comments.  You obvs need a bit about you to make it anywhere as a pro footballer but I haven't seen / heard anything to suggest that Tommy is worse than any others?

He was always going to leave, but its a shame we haven't maximised the value. There is a counterpoint however; often see quotes like "we need to get rid of player x" - this episode just demonstrates again that if a player is under contract it's not that easy as you need a deal that works for both clubs & the player.

Edited July 30 by TDarwall

[Monkeh]

10 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Funny old life as a professional footballer. Even if Boro are offering 25% more than our best contract, is there any other profession that would leave their friends and family for that? 

For a 25% payrise? Yes, plenty I would move for that, 

[sh1t_ref_again]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The simple answer that I have (not saying it’s right) is that it was an offer whilst discussions went on with Celtic.  As soon as they knew Celtic wouldn’t match hit the right amount, then they didn’t need to offer Tommy as much to stay.

That’s plausible isn’t it?

Your suggestion is too.

Its not popular to knock the club, sometimes the club give us good reason to do so.  If you read a lot of posts, you’ll see praise too.  There are some posters on both sides of the fence who show no balance at all.  Depends what you’re looking for!

At the end of day, whatever the truth, we are likely to be losing a player for less than we should have.  There are multiple dynamics to that valuation and it’s changed over time and as events happened.

I hope we can eke as much out of Boro or whoever as possible.

Did not answer my question Dave

Why would city withdraw and offer a lesser contract to save a few thousand a week, when getting the signature secures a multi million asset, whose value increases by millions as soon as he signs and maybe by a lot more if he has a good season 

[astrondrew]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

He’s already been replaced. Fally and or Armstrong.

And with, possibly, a number 10 added to the squad with the cushion of the money.

[Swede]

One of the points missed here is that our playing style has changed with Manning in charge and it doesn't play to TC's strengths. That was evident when Nige left. If you look at the two strikers brought in they have different strengths. TC leaving is as much to do with how we as a club see our strikers operating. He doesn't fit into that category. The writing was on the wall when Nige left.

[The Masked Man]

25 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Did not answer my question Dave

Why would city withdraw and offer a lesser contract to save a few thousand a week, when getting the signature secures a multi million asset, whose value increases by millions as soon as he signs and maybe by a lot more if he has a good season 

Maybe they've considered the alternatives and thought on balance they could do better with the likely transfer fee and wages. You also need to consider the signalling to other players as they renew their contracts. We haven't been present to the conversation so all we can do is guess and fans lean towards conjecture that suits their narrative on where the club is. 

[BasSavage88]

6 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I'm not 100% sure if he will end up there. 

I think we have put Boros interest out there to drum up interest. Much like we did with Scott and Wolves last season. 

If you're the one saying its not going to happen its going to 

I remember when you were a million percent sure he wouldn't go for 2 mill 

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, Swede said:

One of the points missed here is that our playing style has changed with Manning in charge and it doesn't play to TC's strengths. That was evident when Nige left. If you look at the two strikers brought in they have different strengths. TC leaving is as much to do with how we as a club see our strikers operating. He doesn't fit into that category. The writing was on the wall when Nige left.

(Cough) I think I might have pointed that one out a few times!

This was something I posted in January. This is also the point I’ve been making about this being utterly foreseeable:

——
My gut is that he’s not signing a contract as there has been one on the table for a while and we will cash in as opposed to letting him run down his deal. He has struggled for goals from open play recently and with luck Twine can unlock that more to season end - but regrettably I think he may be doing that to maximise TCs value as opposed to anything else. Love him to sign though!

I think to be fair it’s more about where Tommy sits relative to Alex/Antoine in the pecking order. The two AS’s both went to Bournemouth- Alex seemingly as first choice, Antoine took a while but is now a regular. The other side of the coin is a Massengo (with the caveat I’m not sure he’s Prem quality) - moved to Burnley and hasn’t kicked a ball. Now HNM may not care - and the bank balance is a real comfort - but he’s effectively wasting years of his career by making the wrong move.

And that’s probably where I see things with Tommy. Hes definitely got top level potential (probably lower half), but he’s not a definite starter at bigger teams at this level or the lower half at the level above currently. Making the wrong move now could lead to him having a very warm backside and his career having passed him by. 
 

So, a “better offer” financially and he may well be off. But I think it’s also down to game time and maybe taking not the best £ but the best fit which for me may be something like a Boro if they were interested. 
 

I do think he’s going, both because of the contract length and because I don’t think the current style suits him which will naturally make him less attractive as his goal return drops (think it’s 2 open play goals in 12?) - but I’m not sure it’s binary 

[mozo]

11 minutes ago, Swede said:

One of the points missed here is that our playing style has changed with Manning in charge and it doesn't play to TC's strengths. That was evident when Nige left. If you look at the two strikers brought in they have different strengths. TC leaving is as much to do with how we as a club see our strikers operating. He doesn't fit into that category. The writing was on the wall when Nige left.

I think that's a myth personally.

I don't think Tommy only suits counterattacking football.

[bcfcnick]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The simple answer that I have (not saying it’s right) is that it was an offer whilst discussions went on with Celtic.  As soon as they knew Celtic wouldn’t match hit the right amount, then they didn’t need to offer Tommy as much to stay.

Probably far more complex and, quite possibly, spun by his agent.  It's quite possible he wanted an escape clause with a fixed fee included that was lower than the Club wanted and they adjusted the contract accordingly.   

It's unfair to knock the Club when we are not privy to context and finer details with a player who wanted away after seeing his good friend, Alex Scott, move on with a transformational Premiership deal.  

[RedorDead BCFC]

Bit I don’t understand is, weeks people been saying he can’t play as a loan striker in Mannings way. But yet where he is suggested to be  going they one striker as well. Which seems to be the way most teams now play. As much as I like TC and put money on him being the championship golden boot last season. If the way of football is evolving to one forward then surely it’s the player that needs to adapt.

 
Also I go back to the other comment that he loved playing for Nige but yet he didn’t sign then either. Also I can’t see that Nige would not have had any impact on this lowering the contract talk. IMO he would have been part of it maybe in the background but still in agreement with it. 
 

 

Edited July 30 by RedorDead BCFC

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, RedorDead BCFC said:

Bit I don’t understand is, weeks people been saying he can’t play as a loan striker in Mannings way. But yet where he is suggested to be  going they one striker as well. Which seems to be the way most teams now play. As much as I like TC and put money on him being the championship golden boot last season. If the way of football is evolving to one forward then surely it’s the player that needs to adapt.

 
Also I go back to the other comment that he loved playing for Nige but yet he didn’t sign then either. Also I can’t see that Nige would not have had any impact on this lowering the contract talk. IMO he would have been part of it maybe in the background but still in agreement with it. 
 

 

It isn’t necessarily about playing with one striker, or counter attacking or anything like that, it’s the collective piece. Teams can play with one striker and that player harrass the defence or they can play with one striker as a target man amongst other things. One up top does not mean the same system, and it is about “intent”.

Per Liam himself, Tommy was told he’d get “different kinds of chances” and we all saw he pressed less and touched the ball less. Our xG was also pretty poor and we didn’t create a load of decent chances so what LM said didn’t come to pass at least in the short term.  That’s probably a collective failing of TC, LM and the wider team.

But, point remains. One up top is not the same everywhere. It just happened our one up top made Conway less effective than other one up top systems might have.
 

 

[NcnsBcfc]

1 hour ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Did not answer my question Dave

Why would city withdraw and offer a lesser contract to save a few thousand a week, when getting the signature secures a multi million asset, whose value increases by millions as soon as he signs and maybe by a lot more if he has a good season 

Why would City also offer Vyner a poor new contract offer, causing him to refuse to sign it?

It was only the linking of PL clubs that caused the club to re-evaluate their position and then perhaps even over pay to rescue a situation that their poor initial contract offer had caused in the first place. 

Shades of the Conway situation with Celtic there, but in Vyner's case it seems like we came to our senses eventually.

I'd hate to be in charge of setting the benchmark for the initial contract extension. Pitch it too low and the player mall well say "Is that how you view me as a player", too high and the player snatches it off you and you feel you could probably have got him for less. There must be a real science to it at the best of times.

Whatever happened with Conway, for a player with 2 years left on his contract to stop even negotiating over a new one, is indicative to me of maybe we tried to play a low ball offer and it didn't go well.

 

Edited July 30 by NcnsBcfc

[sh1t_ref_again]

6 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Why would City also offer Vyner a poor new contract offer, causing him to refuse to sign it?

It was only the linking of PL clubs that caused the club to re-evaluate their position and then perhaps even over pay to rescue a situation that their poor initial contract offer had caused in the first place. 

Shades of the Conway situation with Celtic there, but in Vyner's case it seems like we came to our senses eventually.

 

Making an offer (even a low one) is part of the negotiation, that's very different to making an offer, then withdrawing it and giving a lower offer when you are desperately trying to get one of you main assets to sign a new contract

[mozo]

24 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Per Liam himself, Tommy was told he’d get “different kinds of chances” and we all saw he pressed less and touched the ball less. Our xG was also pretty poor and we didn’t create a load of decent chances so what LM said didn’t come to pass at least in the short term.  That’s probably a collective failing of TC, LM and the wider team.

Manning's strategy is not to have a low xG though, is it? That was evidence of Manning not being able to get his methods across in the attacking third. I'm totally open-minded for this season; Manning may be able to get the team creating the kind of intense pressure that would create numerous chances for our central striker. If he doesn't revitalise the attacking third we/he have a problem.

[Numero Uno]

The problem for me is that people hear stories from very good sources and no doubt these titbits of information are true. So, Conway has been treated in a manner by the club that doesn't maximise his value and the treatment can be deemed to be childish, we all know that and, given our hierarchy, I EXPECT that to be blunt about it.

However, on the flip side, take the Manchester Police incident the other day, when you add the 90 seconds BEFORE the original video that got posted, whilst not condoning or justifying the behaviour of the lad suspended you can see why he lost his rag albeit in a manner that suggests he is not fit to wear a uniform.

I get the feeling that what we've seen of the Tommy Conway saga is the equivalent of the second video in that Manchester Airport saga and not the first. For me, the sooner the kid ***** off out of the club the better. Simple as that, nothing personal, don't care if he hits 40 for Middlesbrough or whoever next season. Just go and earn that extra money you want elsewhere.

I think some people rate Tommy very highly, certainly more highly than I do (I think he's a good player but not an exceptional one but might be proven wrong) and are allowing it to either cloud their rational judgement or, in some cases, it is giving them more ammunition to continue having a pop at the club post Nige sacking (which as any regular readers of this forum know, I was disgusted with and how the two clowns handled it).

Edited July 30 by Numero Uno

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

I think that's a myth personally.

I don't think Tommy only suits counterattacking football.

I think it's more a case that we didn't create enough chances for him.

His conversion rate ranks pretty high I believe? Or at least higher than some more higher rated strikers in the league.

 

[Shauntaylor85]

29 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Why would City also offer Vyner a poor new contract offer, causing him to refuse to sign it?

It was only the linking of PL clubs that caused the club to re-evaluate their position and then perhaps even over pay to rescue a situation that their poor initial contract offer had caused in the first place. 

Shades of the Conway situation with Celtic there, but in Vyner's case it seems like we came to our senses eventually.

I'd hate to be in charge of setting the benchmark for the initial contract extension. Pitch it too low and the player mall well say "Is that how you view me as a player", too high and the player snatches it off you and you feel you could probably have got him for less. There must be a real science to it at the best of times.

Whatever happened with Conway, for a player with 2 years left on his contract to stop even negotiating over a new one, is indicative to me of maybe we tried to play a low ball offer and it didn't go well.

 

Because we don’t like spending money. 

[Shauntaylor85]

49 minutes ago, RedorDead BCFC said:

Bit I don’t understand is, weeks people been saying he can’t play as a loan striker in Mannings way. But yet where he is suggested to be  going they one striker as well. Which seems to be the way most teams now play. As much as I like TC and put money on him being the championship golden boot last season. If the way of football is evolving to one forward then surely it’s the player that needs to adapt.

 
Also I go back to the other comment that he loved playing for Nige but yet he didn’t sign then either. Also I can’t see that Nige would not have had any impact on this lowering the contract talk. IMO he would have been part of it maybe in the background but still in agreement with it. 
 

 

I called at the time of that Manning day one meet the players video how miserable Tommy looked, plus uninspired from Manning talk. He was a Nige player. 

Edited July 30 by Shauntaylor85

[Silvio Dante]

4 minutes ago, mozo said:

Manning's strategy is not to have a low xG though, is it? That was evidence of Manning not being able to get his methods across in the attacking third. I'm totally open-minded for this season; Manning may be able to get the team creating the kind of intense pressure that would create numerous chances for our central striker. If he doesn't revitalise the attacking third we/he have a problem.

I don’t think for one minute that LMs strategy is to have a low xG, any more than it would be to be tonked 7-0 at Hull in a week and a bit!

It may have been he didn’t get his ideas across (and as I said, it was a collective fault of several parties), but that is what he is paid for at the end of the day. If you look back at fans comments from Dons and Oxford then a lot of goals were scored from cutbacks - and generally less chances but good quality ones. And to be fair you can see that - the broad intent is to recycle the ball until the opportunity comes to create the 8 out of 10 chance as opposed to the 6 out of 10 one.
 

If it works, all is good. But it’s not an intense pressure game - it’s posession based and if your gameplan is to have less but better chances then you, in the parlance, have less tickets in the raffle. And that’s probably what did for Conway in Liams system - not he couldn’t have played it long term, but that we didn’t create enough of those 8 out of 10 chances - and to be fair, we did create some that he missed and shouldn’t have.

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

I think it's more a case that we didn't create enough chances for him.

His conversion rate ranks pretty high I believe? Or at least higher than some more higher rated strikers in the league.

 

The guy who put confused emoji's on other people posts states facts with question marks..............superb clarity right there!!

[MarcusX]

7 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

The problem for me is that people hear stories from very good sources and no doubt these titbits of information are true. So, Conway has been treated in a manner by the club that doesn't maximise his value and the treatment can be deemed to be childish, we all know that and, given our hierarchy, I EXPECT that to be blunt about it.

However, on the flip side, take the Manchester Police incident the other day, when you add the 90 seconds BEFORE the original video that got posted, whilst not condoning or justifying the behaviour of the lad suspended you can see why he lost his rag albeit in a manner that suggests he is not be fit to wear a uniform.

I get the feeling that what we've seen of the Tommy Conway saga is the equivalent of the second video in that Manchester Airport saga and not the first. For me, the sooner the kid ***** off out of the club the better. Simple as that, nothing personal, don't care if he hits 40 for Middlesbrough or whoever next season. Just go and earn that extra money you want elsewhere.

I think some people rate Tommy very highly, certainly more highly than I do (I think he's a good player but not an exceptional one but might be proven wrong) and are allowing it to either cloud their rational judgement or, in some cases, it is giving them more ammunition to continue having a pop at the club post Nige sacking (which as any of you that read this forum know, I was disgusted with and how the two clowns handled it).

If you're going to use that analogy, you have to accept that there's a third scenario that happened even before the two videos we've seen...

So basically, none of us know the full picture.

I rate Tommy and it does seem a little underhand what has happened with the Celtic transfer and withdrawal / change of contract offer. It's a shame it's all ending this way, he's given us some great goals - those 2 at Rotherham away after returning from injury were special.

[MarcusX]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

The guy who put confused emoji's on other people posts states facts with question marks..............superb clarity right there!!

Confused by you bringing the Manchester incident into this thread, and then using a poor analogy.

I've seen someone share the conversion rates on here, but after a few minutes searching couldn't find it at this time

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, MarcusX said:

If you're going to use that analogy, you have to accept that there's a third scenario that happened even before the two videos we've seen...

So basically, none of us know the full picture.

I rate Tommy and it does seem a little underhand what has happened with the Celtic transfer and withdrawal / change of contract offer. It's a shame it's all ending this way, he's given us some great goals - those 2 at Rotherham away after returning from injury were special.

I can accept that. It proves the point even more......that the facts people are clear about are a PART of the story not THE story.

[MarcusX]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

I can accept that. It proves the point even more......that the facts people are clear about are a PART of the story not THE story.

Yep I'd agree, and I meant to word it that if it's true about the Celtic issue.

I don't really know who to believe, but it's still a shame it's going this way. I think he'll be successful elsewhere

[supercidered]

When I first saw the TC to Boro Link, my first reaction was 'all this f@cking about for Boro'? It's hardly a reach for the stars move is it? All looks a little desperate to me.

Of course it will be more money and of course they are massively odds on to finish well above City and they have a realistic chance of top 6. However, I'm not sure how much of a good fit it is for TC but time will tell on that one.

From a City point of view I just want this to happen. We can then all move on which in my opinion has been pretty poor saga all round.

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

Other than wanting away do we know what Tommy wants? If he wants to play in the Premier League then Boro could be a decent stepping stone. As I've already said I don't see them nailed on for a top 6 finish but they could go close. If his desire on the hand is to cement his place in the Scotland squad Celtic are his best bet. He should be able to hit the ground running in the Scottish Prem and he will get a huge amount of media exposure certainly more than he'd get on Teesside. He'd get plenty of press coverage in the Teesside Gazette but Boro fall behind Leeds and the Sheffield Clubs in the Yorkshire Post and behind Newcastle and Sunderland in the Northern Echo and Sunday Sun. 

[Show Me The Money!]

9 minutes ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

I called at the time of that Manning day one meet the players video how miserable Tommy looked, plus uninspired from Manning talk. He was a Nige player. 

Then he's a ******* idiot if he thinks like that, which I don't for a second think he does, and needs to sort his head out. He's a professional footballer in a world where managers change all the time and he's a young player still learning his trade. From looking in on this from the outside with no knowledge of TC as a person or what discussions have happened in the background it seems to look like he's either having his head turned by his agent or he thinks he's better than the level he is currently playing at. 

[Simon bristol]

1 hour ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Did not answer my question Dave

Why would city withdraw and offer a lesser contract to save a few thousand a week, when getting the signature secures a multi million asset, whose value increases by millions as soon as he signs and maybe by a lot more if he has a good season 

We dont know if thats true, but if it is, we dont know how long that first contract was available for, and he obviously didnt sign it either way. At the point it becomes clear that he wont sign it, do you just leave it on the table anyway? Does it matter at that point, or should you just say we are offering something to ensure we get compensation (unlike liam rosenior),, would it upset other players knowing he is turning down more than they earn, or is that not likely to be a consideration?

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, supercidered said:

When I first saw the TC to Boro Link, my first reaction was 'all this f@cking about for Boro'? It's hardly a reach for the stars move is it? All looks a little desperate to me.

Of course it will be more money and of course they are massively odds on to finish well above City and they have a realistic chance of top 6. However, I'm not sure how much of a good fit it is for TC but time will tell on that one.

From a City point of view I just want this to happen. We can then all move on which in my opinion has been pretty poor saga all round.

Agreed, albeit some won't. I'm never overly defensive of the club tbh but maybe we have to accept that for every Adam Webster, Joe Bryan, Bobby Reid, Lloyd Kelly, Alex Scott and Antoine Semenyo we get a Tommy Conway thrown in now and again where we don't maximise value. The stars haven't aligned for us on player ability and contract duration (in terms of he isn't close to peak ability and holds the upper hand) and all you can ask is that the club learn from this and become better at judging when to renew contracts of their better youngsters.

[Rob k]

33 minutes ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

I called at the time of that Manning day one meet the players video how miserable Tommy looked, plus uninspired from Manning talk. He was a Nige player. 

Was he? As he wouldn’t sign the contract when Pearson was here either.

[Lrrr]

30 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

I've seen someone share the conversion rates on here, but after a few minutes searching couldn't find it at this time

22/23 Tommy was about joint 4th in the league for conversion rate, his 23/24 his % was about half the previous season but not far off Stansfield/Delap etc, but Manning wasn't creating the type of chance Tommy thrives off. The fault of Tommy for not being a more complete all round finisher, the fault of Manning for not creating the type of chance your striker thrives from or perhaps somewhere in the middle. 

[slartibartfast]

12 hours ago, RedRoss said:

We'll never really know the full story. It's really just a massive shame because he's been with us since he was 7 and now he'll likely receive boos when returning. 

 

That's ok, will TC pass up the chance of a tap in against us because he was here as a 7 year old ? Works both ways !

[RedRoss]

Just now, slartibartfast said:

That's ok, will TC pass up the chance of a tap in against us because he was here as a 7 year old ? Works both ways !

It's all fair game. I'm just saying it's a shame that's all. 

He's likely culpable from his end, like we are for this sour ending.

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, fly in the air said:

if he goes to Boro then it's for money only in my opinion. Can't be for anything else. if he goes he will have to be replaced with who I am not sure.

Unfortunately Boro are a bigger, better, more ambitious club than us.  If it was for money, he’d have signed the contract here….he's given up £x thousand per week for a year.

2 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Did not answer my question Dave

Why would city withdraw and offer a lesser contract to save a few thousand a week, when getting the signature secures a multi million asset, whose value increases by millions as soon as he signs and maybe by a lot more if he has a good season 

Because that’s City’s mindset.  Offer his £x when Celtic were sniffing, then when they couldn’t agree a fee, there was no need to offer him as much.  You could say “supply and demand”, ie demand gone, Tommy then injured.  He’d have signed that contract, unfortunately they reduced the terms in the one that got put in front of him.

Does that answer it for you?

[Dredd]

If the rumoured 2m is right then I'm still a bit disappointed. Even with a year left I'd have been hoping for 3/4m. BUT the upside here is City can potentially load the deal a bit. Add on for promotion, and possibly most importantly a sell on. IF the stars align for Tommy and he really kicks on then it's important we get a cut of that. 
Let's hope the news of the Boro interest brings any other clubs who fancy a bid out of the woodwork. Either way I'll be glad once this whole saga is over and everyone moves on

[redkev]

End of day sounds like he doesn’t want to be here wether it’s for money or footballing reasons , 

good bye we move on , 

when he comes back won’t boo won’t clap 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, bcfcnick said:

Probably far more complex and, quite possibly, spun by his agent.  It's quite possible he wanted an escape clause with a fixed fee included that was lower than the Club wanted and they adjusted the contract accordingly.   

It's unfair to knock the Club when we are not privy to context and finer details with a player who wanted away after seeing his good friend, Alex Scott, move on with a transformational Premiership deal.  

Why does everyone think it’s Coles spinning it?  Didn’t have to come for Coles!!!

Tommy is ambitious, he knows he’s not at Alex’s or Antoine’s level (yet at least).  Why would he entertain Rangers if Celtic if “he thinks he’s better than he is”?

1 hour ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Making an offer (even a low one) is part of the negotiation, that's very different to making an offer, then withdrawing it and giving a lower offer when you are desperately trying to get one of you main assets to sign a new contract

And then scramble last minute and pay him higher than you needed too, because you’ve gone in stupidly low.  You starting to see a trend.  Same with Twine.  It’s not good negotiating, anyone can start with a stupidly low offer or when selling a stupidly high offer.  But if you piss off the other party in the process that not good and ultimately the other party did their heels in.

58 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

I think it's more a case that we didn't create enough chances for him.

His conversion rate ranks pretty high I believe? Or at least higher than some more higher rated strikers in the league.

 

It does

22 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Was he? As he wouldn’t sign the contract when Pearson was here either.

That is also true.  It’s not a Pearson v Manning thing, like some are trying to portray.

11 minutes ago, Dredd said:

If the rumoured 2m is right then I'm still a bit disappointed. Even with a year left I'd have been hoping for 3/4m. BUT the upside here is City can potentially load the deal a bit. Add on for promotion, and possibly most importantly a sell on. IF the stars align for Tommy and he really kicks on then it's important we get a cut of that. 
Let's hope the news of the Boro interest brings any other clubs who fancy a bid out of the woodwork. Either way I'll be glad once this whole saga is over and everyone moves on

That’s my hope(s) too.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I won't go nuts over lauding Middlesbrough but let's see..

*Bigger attendances- Yes

*Bigger fanbase- Overall yes albeit ours has grown sharply in the last decade and if we reach the PL and stay there a few years the ground may not be big enough.

*On pitch- Not finished above them since 2019-20 iirc. The only time in many years.

*Further On Pitch-  Only been outside the top Two divisions for a handful of years in their entire history.

*Carrick- Can surely tap Man United and West Ham for loans on relatively favourable terms, maybe others too.

*Infrastructure- Our ground is more modern but theirs is bigger. Unsure how the Training Ground compares, they also FWIW have a Cat 1 Academy.

They appear to have a deeper squad than us too albeit I haven't checked in some time.

Edited July 30 by Mr Popodopolous

[Banjo Red]

Shame to see another academy product leave under a cloud. But I would rather have someone who wants the shirt.

[SecretSam]

My Boro supporting colleague reckons £2m-£3m. I think we'd want a hefty sell on at that price. Shame but onwards and upwards. 

[Davefevs]

Just now, SecretSam said:

My Boro supporting colleague reckons £2m-£3m. I think we'd want a hefty sell on at that price. Shame but onwards and upwards. 

We are t in a strong negotiating position, that’s the prob.

[SecretSam]

Just now, Davefevs said:

We are t in a strong negotiating position, that’s the prob.

Something > nothing. Take the money, move on. We've bought his replacements. 

[Kibs]

Boro are clearly a step up, not a big step IMO, but far more likely to be competing at the top end than we are.

Hopefully it works out for everyone and we manage to get some kind of sell on inserted. 

[BCFCJK93]

Edited July 30 by BCFCJK93

[George Rs]

Just now, BCFCJK93 said:

Bristol Live reporting its 5M

Actually decent business if that’s the price. Got in two young strikers with different profiles for the price on Conway basically. 

[cidercity]

Just now, George Rs said:

Actually decent business if that’s the price. Got in two young strikers with different profiles for the price on Conway basically. 

It’s up to £5 million not a straight £5 million 

[BCFCJK93]

Hopefully this could enable us to throw an offer into Burnley for Twine and maybe another surprise position (based on LM saying he wants 1 maybe 2 more signings)

[sh1t_ref_again]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Because that’s City’s mindset.  Offer his £x when Celtic were sniffing, then when they couldn’t agree a fee, there was no need to offer him as much.  You could say “supply and demand”, ie demand gone, Tommy then injured.  He’d have signed that contract, unfortunately they reduced the terms in the one that got put in front of him.

Does that answer it for you?

Not really because that makes no sense, if TC fails to sign a contract back then we end up where we are now having to sell an asset at a reduced price to protect ourselves against effectively leaving for nothing next year. The value for city was in having a signed contract, not saving a few thousand on a contract. Celtic are not the only club out there who could hold an interest in TC, so just because those talks broke down, city still needed to protect its interest and get a contract signed. Interesting if Celtic were interested but could not agree a fee with us, but could now have him for a fraction of that but not come back in (yet maybe)

 

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

And then scramble last minute and pay him higher than you needed too, because you’ve gone in stupidly low.  You starting to see a trend.  Same with Twine.  It’s not good negotiating, anyone can start with a stupidly low offer or when selling a stupidly high offer.  But if you piss off the other party in the process that not good and ultimately the other party did their heels in.

 

No that's just your interpretation of the situation, no evidence that we paid Zac higher than we needed too or in fact we ended up paying less than we were prepared to. Twine has ended up more complicated due to Parker coming in.

[Selred]

Must be X upfront, plus promotion = X, goals  = X. Total £5m.

[mozo]

1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

I think it's more a case that we didn't create enough chances for him.

His conversion rate ranks pretty high I believe? Or at least higher than some more higher rated strikers in the league.

 

Agree, we definitely didn't create enough, but I don't think that was the plan.

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

I don’t think for one minute that LMs strategy is to have a low xG, any more than it would be to be tonked 7-0 at Hull in a week and a bit!

It may have been he didn’t get his ideas across (and as I said, it was a collective fault of several parties), but that is what he is paid for at the end of the day. If you look back at fans comments from Dons and Oxford then a lot of goals were scored from cutbacks - and generally less chances but good quality ones. And to be fair you can see that - the broad intent is to recycle the ball until the opportunity comes to create the 8 out of 10 chance as opposed to the 6 out of 10 one.
 

If it works, all is good. But it’s not an intense pressure game - it’s posession based and if your gameplan is to have less but better chances then you, in the parlance, have less tickets in the raffle. And that’s probably what did for Conway in Liams system - not he couldn’t have played it long term, but that we didn’t create enough of those 8 out of 10 chances - and to be fair, we did create some that he missed and shouldn’t have.

Totally agree, and for me Manning gets the benefit of the doubt because he'd only just taken over. Now, he's had a summer, movement of players and maybe his number 10, then we should expect an improvement. It might be too much to ask to expect the finished article, but certainly better than last season.

We're not going to find out if Tommy could thrive under Manning, so we can all hypothesise I guess.

I just want to see our players arriving in the final third and look confiden that they know what they want to try to do.

[Lew-T]

11 minutes ago, BCFCJK93 said:

I find that hard to believe tbh.