Come on, England

[Olé]

It's not even my team but since you're all so endlessly pessimistic, if Netherlands beat Austria and Romania beat Slovakia this week then these are the two sides of the knock out draw, with teams on either side kept apart until the final (assuming England win their group):

• Spain / Germany / Portugal / France
• England / Netherlands / Romania / Switzerland

Cheer up!

[MelksRed]

2 hours ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

I see Harry Kane has said "Show us yer medals" to Gary Lineker and Alan Shearer .... not a lot of medals between the three of them, really 

Kane has a point. Man in the arena and all that....

[LondonBristolian]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I see little sign that it is a matter of “clicking” per se.  I would normally say “we are growing into the tournament”.  It feels like we are getting worse.

There appear to be fundamental issues in how we are playing.  Up until the build-up to this tournament I’ve been quite supportive of Southgate, but I think he got the integration of new / young players and jettisoning of the existing players wrong.  He’s ultimately picked an unbalanced squad.  And that squad doesn’t work when the system isn’t working or the players underperforming.  There appears to be no sub possible that just injects freshness, it becomes a change to set-up.  It feels plan a to plan z, not plan b.  That’s on Southgate.

But the players have to take some criticism too.  There is too much ambling, not enough intent, purpose.  I rarely see one of our players sprint off the ball to drag an opponent out of position or to position for receipt of a pass.

I expect another fragmented performance on Tuesday, whoever he selects.

I can only hope we can find something for the knockouts.

I totally agree with you about the balance of the squad.

What Southgate has always got right, up until this tournament, was realising it was about picking a balanced side rather than the 11 best players. For example, Kalvin Phillips probably wasn’t the second best English midfielder in then Premier League in 2020-21 but he was a perfect fit alongside Rice in the Euros. Similarly Trippier got picked ahead of Chilwell when Shaw was unavailable because he better fitted the team.

Right now, it feels like Southgate has failed to plan for the loss of Maguire and Phillips and the fact that Trippier has had a poor season and Shaw cannot stay fit.

I don’t think Alexander-Arnold in midfield is necessarily a bad idea but I do think Alexander-Arnold in midfield without having had time to play there is and I just don’t think he complements Rice. I think Foden on the left could work with an orthodox left back but there is no fit orthodox left back in the squad. 
 

I think you could have a decent team by swapping 2 or 3 players out but at least one of those players is not in the squad. I think Wharton for Alexander-Arnold could help balance the midfield. Wharton might not be as good a player as others in the squad  but he doesn’t have to be - he just needs to be solid and let Rice and Bellingham focus on their game. 

But I just don’t see how to solve the issues on the left without Shaw miraculously finding 100% match fitness or a left back in the squad who simply isn’t in the squad. I think Gordon or Eze for Palmer would give us a little more natural width but left back is still a problem.

The only other option that I think could work is 3 at the back with TAA and Saka as wing backs but you’re then putting arguably our best player so far out of position to compensate for not picking appropriate cover for a left back whose fitness was clearly a gamble. I just don’t understand the rationale for not picking another orthodox  left back. 

[MelksRed]

11 minutes ago, Olé said:

It's not even my team but since you're all so endlessly pessimistic, if Netherlands beat Austria and Romania beat Slovakia this week then these are the two sides of the knock out draw, with teams on either side kept apart until the final (assuming England win their group):

• Spain / Germany / Portugal / France
• England / Netherlands / Romania / Switzerland

Cheer up!

(In true English Fashion) - there are a lot of "Ifs" in that sentence mate.

It's like saying if Karen Gillan met me in the street we'd be married within a week. Not too sure she'd be into podgy bald miserable old blokes though

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Surely that’s down to the manager Dave? 

The England squad is made up of top footballers who play for their respective clubs following the instructions of the clubs manager and are completely familiar with how it works.

The fact that England have been so uninspiring has to be down to Gareth Southgate.

Are they top footballers, at this level, playing against the best of other countries?  I think we overrate based on the strength of the clubs.

I think we have two genuinely “top international” players….Kane and Bellingham.  Personally I’d add Saka into that.  Some might add Walker, or Foden or maybe others.  But I think at international level they aren’t top…and it shows when they are up against another countries best, e.g. Denmark, or Serbia, or whoever….the “levels” are “levelled” out a bit / lot!

They might be at club level, that’s another debate, and clouds whether they are top players at this level.

I don’t see many players in our current squad able to win a game for us.  In a Euro tournament I think we have a lot of just-above-average players, plus the ones I mentioned (or others would mention).

So, it’s easy to put it all on Southgate, but that gives a bunch of underperforming players one helluva free-pass.  Can they seriously not work out how the press a team playing a back-3, can they not problem solve on the pitch.  If Southgate hasn’t prepared them, then yes give him some stick, but I doubt that.

You’ve kinda nailed it - they all play well for their club in the way their clubs play….but unfortunately which are all different.  Man City and Arsenal more alike than Liverpool and Villa.  So no cohesion, and little tactical flexibility.  They’ve been so honed to play the way of their club, they can’t play a team game or another way.  But, still, they’re all top footballers, so it’s all the manager’s fault!!!

 

[pillred]

2 hours ago, mozo said:

England's performances have been objectively disappointing. I don't think anyone will be embarrassed about saying as such.

 

It wasn't so much the reaction to the way we have played that is embarrassing but the overall comments about our chances, as Robbored has said we have been here before with poor starts.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think you could have a decent team by swapping 2 or 3 players out but at least one of those players is not in the squad. I think Wharton for Alexander-Arnold could help balance the midfield. Wharton might not be as good a player as others in the squad  but he doesn’t have to be - he just needs to be solid and let Rice and Bellingham focus on their game. 

The bit I worry about is people saying that Wharton should come in to allow Rice to play as an 8 like he has under Arteta.  Wharton isn’t a defensive screen, a sitter, a base of midfield player.  Southgate didn’t pick one, did he?

What I do expect is that if TAA was the “experiment”, that Southgate has the non-experiment, the default, to revert to.  My problem is I have no idea what that looks like.

[Son of Fred]

11 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I totally agree with you about the balance of the squad.

What Southgate has always got right, up until this tournament, was realising it was about picking a balanced side rather than the 11 best players. For example, Kalvin Phillips probably wasn’t the second best English midfielder in then Premier League in 2020-21 but he was a perfect fit alongside Rice in the Euros. Similarly Trippier got picked ahead of Chilwell when Shaw was unavailable because he better fitted the team.

Right now, it feels like Southgate has failed to plan for the loss of Maguire and Phillips and the fact that Trippier has had a poor season and Shaw cannot stay fit.

I don’t think Alexander-Arnold in midfield is necessarily a bad idea but I do think Alexander-Arnold in midfield without having had time to play there is and I just don’t think he complements Rice. I think Foden on the left could work with an orthodox left back but there is no fit orthodox left back in the squad. 
 

I think you could have a decent team by swapping 2 or 3 players out but at least one of those players is not in the squad. I think Wharton for Alexander-Arnold could help balance the midfield. Wharton might not be as good a player as others in the squad  but he doesn’t have to be - he just needs to be solid and let Rice and Bellingham focus on their game. 

But I just don’t see how to solve the issues on the left without Shaw miraculously finding 100% match fitness or a left back in the squad who simply isn’t in the squad. I think Gordon or Eze for Palmer would give us a little more natural width but left back is still a problem.

The only other option that I think could work is 3 at the back with TAA and Saka as wing backs but you’re then putting arguably our best player so far out of position to compensate for not picking appropriate cover for a left back whose fitness was clearly a gamble. I just don’t understand the rationale for not picking another orthodox  left back. 

Excellent post LB..

Abridged:- Southgate 's

[robin_unreliant]

I'm surprised that England seem to be incapable of changing formation to fit the players available. City will switch formations mid-game, as do most club sides when necessary. I get that GS has them for less time to work on formations. However, players are used to doing it at club level so surely are capable of doing it?

It all comes back to lions led by a donkey in my head.

[reddogkev]

The sad thing is we should have won the Euro's last time.  We bottled it big time.  That Italy team was nothing special and the final was ours for the taking.  This time we don't have a chance in hell of winning.  All of the attacking players look jaded, apart from the ones he wont play.

Still, I think we will make the quarters, which is still respectable.

I'm just hoping Eddie Howe takes over after.

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Garys got a terrible memory we were notoriously slow starters in the group stages when he was playing!

And said as much in the pod.

[exAtyeoMax]

8 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Some people think we have a God-given right to win the Euros or the World Cup. 
We are certainly better than our performances suggest, but that’s based upon talented individuals rather than a good team. 
Seriously are we better than Spain, Portugal, Germany or Italy?
How many Iceland - or Denmark- players would get into an England side? Very few - yet Iceland beat us and Denmark forced a draw. 
If we really DO have world-beating players, but consistently fail to win anything, then maybe the management and coaching structure needs to be changed?

I think that’s borne out of frustration more than anything else. A bit like us watching other teams move up the leagues and reaching the prem, while we seemingly fail consistently, and never progress. 

[OneTeamInBristol]

Group games often throw up funny results.

2010 World Cup first group game Spain lost to Switzerland - went on to lift the trophy.

2022 World Cup first group game Argentina lost to Saudi Arabia - went on to lift the trophy.

Edited June 24 by OneTeamInBristol

[BigTone]

1 hour ago, MelksRed said:

 

It's like saying if Karen Gillan met me in the street we'd be married within a week. Not too sure she'd be into podgy bald miserable old blokes though

If she plays her cards right she can have me

[phantom]

Some good news this morning, Luke Shaw is taking part in his first training of the tournament

How far that makes him away from playing who knows

[Ian M]

12 minutes ago, phantom said:

Some good news this morning, Luke Shaw is taking part in his first training of the tournament

How far that makes him away from playing who knows

Don't risk him in the group stage imo. Hopefully he can give us some balance from the knockout stage onwards. Hopefully in a completely changed left hand side.

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

The bit I worry about is people saying that Wharton should come in to allow Rice to play as an 8 like he has under Arteta.  Wharton isn’t a defensive screen, a sitter, a base of midfield player.  Southgate didn’t pick one, did he?

What I do expect is that if TAA was the “experiment”, that Southgate has the non-experiment, the default, to revert to.  My problem is I have no idea what that looks like.

In fairness to Southgate, I just don't think we currently have that defensive screen full stop. Southgate didn't pick one but I'm not sure I can think of who the player would have been that Southgate might have picked to play that role. Even the midfielders who've dropped out the team over the last year - Henderson and Phillips, both of whom I think should have been excluded - are very different players to that. 

I think Wharton (or Mainoo) coming in alongside Rice would help but, with either of them, Rice would still need to play a different game to how he plays with Arsenal. But Rice is a good enough player to play more than one way and I just don't see we have a defensive midfielder who Southgate could pick to let him do what he does for Arsenal. 

[mozo]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Are they top footballers, at this level, playing against the best of other countries?  I think we overrate based on the strength of the clubs.

I think we have two genuinely “top international” players….Kane and Bellingham.  Personally I’d add Saka into that.  Some might add Walker, or Foden or maybe others.  But I think at international level they aren’t top…and it shows when they are up against another countries best, e.g. Denmark, or Serbia, or whoever….the “levels” are “levelled” out a bit / lot!

They might be at club level, that’s another debate, and clouds whether they are top players at this level.

I don’t see many players in our current squad able to win a game for us.  In a Euro tournament I think we have a lot of just-above-average players, plus the ones I mentioned (or others would mention).

So, it’s easy to put it all on Southgate, but that gives a bunch of underperforming players one helluva free-pass.  Can they seriously not work out how the press a team playing a back-3, can they not problem solve on the pitch.  If Southgate hasn’t prepared them, then yes give him some stick, but I doubt that.

You’ve kinda nailed it - they all play well for their club in the way their clubs play….but unfortunately which are all different.  Man City and Arsenal more alike than Liverpool and Villa.  So no cohesion, and little tactical flexibility.  They’ve been so honed to play the way of their club, they can’t play a team game or another way.  But, still, they’re all top footballers, so it’s all the manager’s fault!!!

 

Not sure about your assessment of the quality of our players Dave, and it seems at odds with the majority of former players, pundits and journos. The general consensus is that if you line our squad up against any other leading Euro nation, head for head we're as strong, if not stronger. 

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, mozo said:

Not sure about your assessment of the quality of our players Dave, and it seems at odds with the majority of former players, pundits and journos. The general consensus is that if you line our squad up against any other leading Euro nation, head for head we're as strong, if not stronger. 

Yep, I am at odds with them.  I don’t have to agree with them.  I think they overate our players at international level / get blinded by their club level performances for stellar teams (in some cases)…rather than watch / evaluate their performances for England.  They get a bit excited!

Once you get selected for England and play for England, it’s about what you do for England.  What you do for Man City or whoever is irrelevant.

Of course it could all be Southgate’s fault.  Some of it is (this tournament especially) but not all.

[mozo]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, I am at odds with them.  I don’t have to agree with them.  I think they overate our players at international level / get blinded by their club level performances for stellar teams (in some cases)…rather than watch / evaluate their performances for England.  They get a bit excited!

Once you get selected for England and play for England, it’s about what you do for England.  What you do for Man City or whoever is irrelevant.

Of course it could all be Southgate’s fault.  Some of it is (this tournament especially) but not all.

Fair enough! 

Yeah it probably is reductive to blame Southgate for everything. It's never that simple.

I do however see a coach that is conservative and cautious by nature, and so it doesn't surprise me that the players are shrinking, rather than shining.

Ironically, the word you've used a fair bit on the forum, 'intent', seems to me to really apply here, and as with at City, the intent has to be channelled from the head coach.

[Spike]

12 hours ago, pillred said:

I'm hoping all these negative comments will in 3 weeks time look embarrassing, Football is a funny old game.

England seem to be the same all the time though, we look crap in group stages but manage to get through, then we suddenly wake up and play decent for a few games in the knock out stages and then we go out to a team we, at the time, look capable of beating. 

My issue is real contenders hot the ground running, they don't tend to be the teams who sit back playing ball around at the back for long periods without playing through the final third. England are so negative in their playstyle, they just pass around the back waiting for an obvious passing opportunity, they don't actually create them with good movement. In that last game I just couldn't get my head around how static we were, no movement at all, it just looked like we were going through the motions and it was highly infuriating. Bellingham looked like the only one who wanted to get the ball and actually move forward every time he got it, obviously he couldn't do that by himself. Foden looked better in the middle and had a few goes at the opposition when he could too but again, it was so far and few. 

Watching the Netherlands play their opening games made me realise how overrated our front four are by the media, at least they are the way we're playing now. The Netherlands really struggled to finish their chances in their first game but they were always pushing, always creating and if their defence didn't look so dodgy when pushed I'd say they've looked better than almost any team because they're taking the game to their opponents. In comparison I'd say we look more like Italy right now, no real direction and not sure about our identity or how we're going to play. 

[SecretSam]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I see little sign that it is a matter of “clicking” per se.  I would normally say “we are growing into the tournament”.  It feels like we are getting worse.

There appear to be fundamental issues in how we are playing.  Up until the build-up to this tournament I’ve been quite supportive of Southgate, but I think he got the integration of new / young players and jettisoning of the existing players wrong.  He’s ultimately picked an unbalanced squad.  And that squad doesn’t work when the system isn’t working or the players underperforming.  There appears to be no sub possible that just injects freshness, it becomes a change to set-up.  It feels plan a to plan z, not plan b.  That’s on Southgate.

But the players have to take some criticism too.  There is too much ambling, not enough intent, purpose.  I rarely see one of our players sprint off the ball to drag an opponent out of position or to position for receipt of a pass.

I expect another fragmented performance on Tuesday, whoever he selects.

I can only hope we can find something for the knockouts.

So you'd have taken Grealish (say) over Eze?

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

England seem to be the same all the time though, we look crap in group stages but manage to get through, then we suddenly wake up and play decent for a few games in the knock out stages and then we go out to a team we, at the time, look capable of beating. 

My issue is real contenders hot the ground running, they don't tend to be the teams who sit back playing ball around at the back for long periods without playing through the final third. England are so negative in their playstyle, they just pass around the back waiting for an obvious passing opportunity, they don't actually create them with good movement. In that last game I just couldn't get my head around how static we were, no movement at all, it just looked like we were going through the motions and it was highly infuriating. Bellingham looked like the only one who wanted to get the ball and actually move forward every time he got it, obviously he couldn't do that by himself. Foden looked better in the middle and had a few goes at the opposition when he could too but again, it was so far and few. 

Watching the Netherlands play their opening games made me realise how overrated our front four are by the media, at least they are the way we're playing now. The Netherlands really struggled to finish their chances in their first game but they were always pushing, always creating and if their defence didn't look so dodgy when pushed I'd say they've looked better than almost any team because they're taking the game to their opponents. In comparison I'd say we look more like Italy right now, no real direction and not sure about our identity or how we're going to play. 

So another England v Italy final it is………

[Spike]

Just now, Numero Uno said:

So another England v Italy final it is………

Could be, but both teams but both teams are currently under performing. It's like I said, we seem to change completely in the knock outs, I just don't understand why we're always so negative in the group stages, it doesn't build confidence and it certainly let's the fans down. 

Also I'd dare to say that despite being a relatively short time since that the teams look very different now. 

[Numero Uno]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I see little sign that it is a matter of “clicking” per se.  I would normally say “we are growing into the tournament”.  It feels like we are getting worse.

There appear to be fundamental issues in how we are playing.  Up until the build-up to this tournament I’ve been quite supportive of Southgate, but I think he got the integration of new / young players and jettisoning of the existing players wrong.  He’s ultimately picked an unbalanced squad.  And that squad doesn’t work when the system isn’t working or the players underperforming.  There appears to be no sub possible that just injects freshness, it becomes a change to set-up.  It feels plan a to plan z, not plan b.  That’s on Southgate.

But the players have to take some criticism too.  There is too much ambling, not enough intent, purpose.  I rarely see one of our players sprint off the ball to drag an opponent out of position or to position for receipt of a pass.

I expect another fragmented performance on Tuesday, whoever he selects.

I can only hope we can find something for the knockouts.

Alternatively we could be guaranteed a last 16 place by 8pm tomorrow and the handbrake might be let off a little!! Something like that can relax players and staff just enough…….

[SecretSam]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Are they top footballers, at this level, playing against the best of other countries?  I think we overrate based on the strength of the clubs.

I think we have two genuinely “top international” players….Kane and Bellingham.  Personally I’d add Saka into that.  Some might add Walker, or Foden or maybe others.  But I think at international level they aren’t top…and it shows when they are up against another countries best, e.g. Denmark, or Serbia, or whoever….the “levels” are “levelled” out a bit / lot!

They might be at club level, that’s another debate, and clouds whether they are top players at this level.

I don’t see many players in our current squad able to win a game for us.  In a Euro tournament I think we have a lot of just-above-average players, plus the ones I mentioned (or others would mention).

So, it’s easy to put it all on Southgate, but that gives a bunch of underperforming players one helluva free-pass.  Can they seriously not work out how the press a team playing a back-3, can they not problem solve on the pitch.  If Southgate hasn’t prepared them, then yes give him some stick, but I doubt that.

You’ve kinda nailed it - they all play well for their club in the way their clubs play….but unfortunately which are all different.  Man City and Arsenal more alike than Liverpool and Villa.  So no cohesion, and little tactical flexibility.  They’ve been so honed to play the way of their club, they can’t play a team game or another way.  But, still, they’re all top footballers, so it’s all the manager’s fault!!!

 

I think the thing is, and no disrespect intended, but if you're (say) Denmark, you've got 3-4 outstanding players in various positions, so they can all play. If you're England, you have several positions with outstanding players - eg Foden vs Bellingham at 10. 

So, like at club level (Man City, Real Madrid, etc), what you should do, and what Southgate has done until now, is pick the appropriate XI - not just the 'best' players. Which is why, until now, Foden's not got a sniff, ditto Watkins, etc. 

But, as you say, if there are gaps - LB, CDM, etc - it's how you fill them. And, IMHO, we should have planned for LB in particular, as Shaw's injury record has always been rotten, and Chilwell's a bit 'meh'.

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

Could be, but both teams but both teams are currently under performing. It's like I said, we seem to change completely in the knock outs, I just don't understand why we're always so negative in the group stages, it doesn't build confidence and it certainly let's the fans down. 

Also I'd dare to say that despite being a relatively short time since that the teams look very different now. 

Can’t argue with that except to say the one positive for me is that Southgate knows something has got to change. England fans booing their side off would have sent a message whether him, Kane or whoever like it or not.

[bcfcredandwhite]

2 hours ago, pillred said:

It wasn't so much the reaction to the way we have played that is embarrassing but the overall comments about our chances, as Robbored has said we have been here before with poor starts.

As long as we are still in the competition we have a chance. 
However, we need to learn how to put teams to the sword - and not try and sit back on a 1-0 lead - I find that sooo frustrating and nerve-wracking. 
I know we traditionally start slowly, but we don’t always pick up either (South Africa World Cup for example), so I can’t honestly say I’m 100% confident we will. 
We MIGHT pick up - and we MIGHT even go on to win the comp - in which case I would be delighted to admit that Southgate got it spot on and I was overly negative. 
Personally I think we will scrape through to the quarters and then go out - probably on penalties - after going 1-0 ahead early in the first half then defending for the rest of the game, until conceding in the 95th minute. 

 

[Markthehorn]

Just noticed if we come 2nd in our group we play Germany .
 

[Ska Junkie]

4 hours ago, SecretSam said:

I don't think that's going to happen, but I fear he'll play Rice deep again, and slot Foden and Bellingham ahead. 

I found the link: FourFourTwo

I don't see that as necessarily a bad move TBH SS. As one of my customers said to me last week, England are essentially playing with 7 defenders (if you include Rice) and then Southgate came out with the ludicrous 'we've been trying to find a replacement for Phillips for 4 years'. Surely, a top class Manager looks at the players available to him and, rather than stick religiously to a certain formation, he changes it to suit.

With Rice sitting as a DMF, why not put Foden (or another) into a more attacking central midfield position, strengthening our attacking power? Yes, it needs Rice to be disciplined but he's shown he can do that plus we are getting to the point that we will need to win games rather than not lose them.