Come on, England

[And Its Smith]

48 minutes ago, JAWS said:

Haha, the convenient truth

If you are choosing boring wins over entertaining losses you cant then say ‘but what if we lost’ after we win! 

[mozo]

15 hours ago, petehinton said:

It’s been a ******* odd tournament, made true by all the ‘big’ nations having bad games. France haven’t scored from open play, home nation out at the quarters for basically the first time ever. 
 

It’s been very bad, but as they always say, the best teams always find a way…

Agree it has been odd. England and France the favourites but both struggling to perform and clawing their way through. In my opinion, France and England have both been on that trajectory for a while. France didn't impress me in either of the last two tournaments despite their progress.

Germany is a different kettle of fish though. In many ways they were victorious in defeat. They've come out of a massive rut and are rebuilding, and for them to play such enterprising, coherent football this tournament is a huge step forwards for them. I think people still think of the German of yesteryear, but they haven't been a team of steel for many tournaments now. It's a cliche that doesn't match the reality that they went into a slump and are very aware of their fragility now.

Spain are also not the power they used to be and will be absolutely delighted to have emerged as the best performing side of the tournament. They're the one major nation that has really clicked and looks organised and comfortable on the ball. Got to be favourites now.

Edited July 7 by mozo

[Markman]

34 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

As England and Bristol City fans, we must be some of the most success starved sports fans. All I want is to celebrate winning something, and if we do it in a similar shithouse way to Portugal in 2016 then so be it. I’ve seen nothing to fear from either France or the Netherlands, even playing like we have been. Spain could be a different proposition though.

I am sure the Netherlands are quaking in their boots at the prospect of playing us!

[Cowshed]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Just because they hadn’t played it before doesn’t make un-organised…it’s just not drilled.  

Bellingham dropped in when Mainoo went off.

How do you get efficiently organised without preparation and being drilled? Organisation comes from understanding of roles and rehearsal.

England went from being solid to something else. And that something else was logical because they really don't play, rehearse, plan, drill what they were playing and the team does not play with that many attack minded players on the pitch, it really is not what Mr Southgate does.      

In possession Bellingham didn't drop in he still played in front of Rice and to the left. England's central midfield was out of its normal compact shape. That affected how England defended, the defence  dropped right off so players could recover.  

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I’m not sure any source is objective but we went into it with the Premier League player of the season, La Liga player of the season and the European Golden Boot holder.

it is possible France were fancied slightly more than us but all the other major countries went into the tournament slightly out of sorts or with question marks around them. It definitely wasn’t just English media hype.

Well there is that.

What I mean is, I don't think there was a definitive favourite as such, the balance for us hasn't looked right for most of the tournament..France perhaps with their recent record but Belgium and Italy have seen better days, Germany seem to underperform of late.

Holland first time around under Koeman looked like they had surged back but that was 2018-2019, I certainly didn't have them among my list this time- he quit between qualifying and the delayed tournament to go to Barcelona and they were diminished in the run up to 2020.

Portugal too have a range of options yet are still playing 41 year old Pepe at centre back.

It felt a bit soon for Spain so perhaps their progress is a bit surprising.

2nd notch down, Croatia looked a step too far.

Favourites or top 2 favourites in a field that isn't the strongest maybe. Some outright clear favourites Idk.

[BigTone]

6 minutes ago, Markman said:

I am sure the Netherlands are quaking in their boots at the prospect of playing us!

Of coursh 

[downendcity]

2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Win, 100%. And I think many look back at Euro 96 with rose tinted specs. Struggled against the Swiss, Scotland could have gone either way with their penalty miss, penalties to beat a poor Spain team.

As a golfer ( of sorts!) it's often been quoted to me that at the end of a round the scorecard records the "how many" not the " how". 

When push comes to shove, football is a results based sport/business and if, by a miracle, Manning secures promotion next spring how many City fans will be moaning that they were not entertained during the season?

By the way, that is not an invitation to post a list of all those that would be moaning!  

 

[JAWS]

30 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

If you are choosing boring wins over entertaining losses you cant then say ‘but what if we lost’ after we win! 

Boring but far from convincing. It's easy (& convenient) to dismiss reality when the coin falls ur side up. And a penalty shoot out is literally the equivalent in probability terms of tossing a coin. If we had lost the shoot out yesterday would you have said it was a good tournament and we were unlucky and did everything we could to get through. We mustn't ignore that we've been really poor overall. You're definitely in the minority if you think otherwise. And that's my point. We should be doing better with the talent at our disposal & for someone paid £5 million/year

[downendcity]

21 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Of coursh 

I know just what you're thinking of Tone!.....

 

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, JAWS said:

Boring but far from convincing. It's easy (& convenient) to dismiss reality when the coin falls ur side up. And a penalty shoot out is literally the equivalent in probability terms of tossing a coin. If we had lost the shoot out yesterday would you have said it was a good tournament and we were unlucky and did everything we could to get through. We mustn't ignore that we've been really poor overall. You're definitely in the minority if you think otherwise. And that's my point. We should be doing better with the talent at our disposal & for someone paid £5 million/year

Ah the classic ‘penalty shoot outs are luck’ cliche.  5 perfect penalties aren’t luck. Skill 

[Roger Red Hat]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c72vz40yd43o

Well worth a read about England's penalty taking.

[BigTone]

5 minutes ago, JAWS said:

Boring but far from convincing. It's easy (& convenient) to dismiss reality when the coin falls ur side up. And a penalty shoot out is literally the equivalent in probability terms of tossing a coin. If we had lost the shoot out yesterday would you have said it was a good tournament and we were unlucky and did everything we could to get through. We mustn't ignore that we've been really poor overall. You're definitely in the minority if you think otherwise. And that's my point. We should be doing better with the talent at our disposal & for someone paid £5 million/year

One must ask which team has really performed and impressed in the tournament. My French friends certainly don't think they have.

[BigTone]

6 minutes ago, downendcity said:

I know just what you're thinking of Tone!.....

 

You guessed it. At least it wasn't Joey Barton with his 50 yard pass in French !!

[Davefevs]

35 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

How do you get efficiently organised without preparation and being drilled? Organisation comes from understanding of roles and rehearsal.

England went from being solid to something else. And that something else was logical because they really don't play, rehearse, plan, drill what they were playing and the team does not play with that many attack minded players on the pitch, it really is not what Mr Southgate does.      

In possession Bellingham didn't drop in he still played in front of Rice and to the left. England's central midfield was out of its normal compact shape. That affected how England defended, the defence  dropped right off so players could recover.  

 

I didn’t say efficiently…but I would say sufficiently organised in extra time when into their block.  They made Switzerland go central to wide when they got 30-40 yards out.  It’s no different to what teams do to us.  The structure was lost further forward for me, as a reaction to Switzerland being more adventurous. And we settled deeper.  Was it perfect, well-drilled?  Nope.  Was it enough to get us to the end of extra time and pens?  Yes.

Its not as if our well-practiced 4231 is the bastion of perfect performances is it?

[Jackson Lamb]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think we are something like a 4th-8th best team, regardless of what our FiFA world ranking says.  We should get to the quarters, possibly semi, but sometimes it depends on who you meet en-route.

Spain, Germany and France are the best three imho, then we are in a bunch behind.  No right to be favourites, and even in that bunch of teams behind we aren’t much better than the batch behind, hence why games against the likes of Switzerland and Denmark were very tough too.

+++++

I thought we played a little bit better yesterday.

I didn’t understand the half-time plaudits for Foden from the pundits.  Pre-game I said the WBs playing high and side-CBs being comfortable in side positions was key.  And for 50-55 mins that was the case.  Maybe it was half time, but once the Swiss pushed their WBs on (the LWB sub helped), we got dragged deep…and it started to feel a bit similar to the previous games.  Kane then drops in and we can’t get out.  He has to stay high, no deeper than the centre circle, he has to gamble if they don’t keep someone back.

We have to learn from that.

With the ball and in good structure, I thought we moved it quite well…a bit too slow in the last 30 mins, but I think we tired as the Swiss improved.

+++++

So, ultimately we have reached another semi.  The much maligned GS proving (?) he can progress us in tournaments.

The questions remain - could a better head-coach make this bunch of individuals be a better team.

To be honest Dave. It’s been certain moments of quality and luck at times to be where we are in this competition. Type of moments real top quality players pull out of a hat.

There hasn’t been one game this tournament where Southgate’s tactics or man management have been good shall we say.

We can say on paper Southgate has got us to another semi final. But the truth is he hasn’t. Quality of players has with a sprinkle of luck. Southgate has been a total passenger in this tournament. No credit goes to Southgate in my opinion. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

22 minutes ago, BigTone said:

One must ask which team has really performed and impressed in the tournament. My French friends certainly don't think they have.

Spain perhaps?

Albeit I thought their opening game flattered them, Croatia missed some good chances and at key times.

Nobody has stood out and decisively emerged from the pack really.

Edited July 7 by Mr Popodopolous

[RUSSEL85]

1 hour ago, Markman said:

I am sure the Netherlands are quaking in their boots at the prospect of playing us!

True, but I havnt seen much of them either that worries me. Will be a tough and likely boring game again where fine margins decide it.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, The Coach said:

To be honest Dave. It’s been certain moments of quality and luck at times to be where we are in this competition. Type of moments real top quality players pull out of a hat.

There hasn’t been one game this tournament where Southgate’s tactics or man management have been good shall we say.

We can say on paper Southgate has got us to another semi final. But the truth is he hasn’t. Quality of players has with a sprinkle of luck. Southgate has been a total passenger in this tournament. No credit goes to Southgate in my opinion. 

I tend to agree with you…I think we’ve been worse / less good (?) in this tournament than previously, hence why it feels it’s one tournament too far for GS imho.  I think he made a rod for his own back with his squad seiection and that’s borne out in performances.  I’m not really giving him any credit, but I do think he unfairly gets the brunt of the criticism.

But “we” are now in the semis, he’s built a resilient bunch to some extent.  Our own views will decide whether it’s (the good and the bad) down to him or the players.  My own view is that the players aren’t as good as we think they are at this level.  Even Hal Robson-Kanu was capable of a wonder goal!  But also GS isn’t coaching them as well as he needs to either.  So a bit of both…and I think we should let this be his last tournament, win or lose.

[LondonBristolian]

20 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Spain perhaps?

Albeit I thought their opening game flattered them, Croatia missed some good chances and at key times.

Nobody has stood out and decisively emerged from the pack really.

I think this is the other context we’ve got to see Wednesday’s game in. Neither England nor the Netherlands have looked like decisive world beaters but we are in the semis of a tournament where nobody looks outstanding.

We’re in an arguably strong position for the future due to the amount of young and emerging talent we have but the 2026 World Cup will, by definition, include more strong teams as a global competition and the location of North and Central America may not favour us and, by 2028, at least a couple of the traditional European big hitters are likely to be stronger than they are now.

Whoever wins on Wednesday may find this is their best shot at a trophy for quite a while.

Edited July 7 by LondonBristolian

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I didn’t say efficiently…but I would say sufficiently organised in extra time when into their block.  They made Switzerland go central to wide when they got 30-40 yards out.  It’s no different to what teams do to us.  The structure was lost further forward for me, as a reaction to Switzerland being more adventurous. And we settled deeper.  Was it perfect, well-drilled?  Nope.  Was it enough to get us to the end of extra time and pens?  Yes.

Its not as if our well-practiced 4231 is the bastion of perfect performances is it?

England's well practiced 4-2-3-1 has been the basis of England's defensive resilience over years and tournaments. England are a tough nut to score against. Its efficient. England would be that tough nut to score against playing like they did post Swiss goal last night.

England ceded defensive control in extra time. England ended with three defenders and Declan Rice, and then six attackers on the pitch. Four and a six. England historically under Southgate have played six and four. The structure was lost in front of the back three. It was not what Mr Southgate's England do

 

[Jackson Lamb]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I tend to agree with you…I think we’ve been worse / less good (?) in this tournament than previously, hence why it feels it’s one tournament too far for GS imho.  I think he made a rod for his own back with his squad seiection and that’s borne out in performances.  I’m not really giving him any credit, but I do think he unfairly gets the brunt of the criticism.

But “we” are now in the semis, he’s built a resilient bunch to some extent.  Our own views will decide whether it’s (the good and the bad) down to him or the players.  My own view is that the players aren’t as good as we think they are at this level.  Even Hal Robson-Kanu was capable of a wonder goal!  But also GS isn’t coaching them as well as he needs to either.  So a bit of both…and I think we should let this be his last tournament, win or lose.

Oh players definitely need to burden the criticism also. But yes, it definitely feels time now for Southgate to leave. My only concern is the FA and their next choice. Do they go with the logical choice of Graham Potter? Do they do their usual and go with their man in Lee Carsley? Or do they reach for the stars and give Klopp a blank cheque book and let him write down whatever salary he wants. 
 

It will be a very interesting next appointment. Make it a good one and I’d feel confident going into the WC 2026.

[BigTone]

21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Spain perhaps?

Albeit I thought their opening game flattered them, Croatia missed some good chances and at key times.

Nobody has stood out and decisively emerged from the pack really.

Perhaps, but my money is on a France vs England final.  End result ? ........................ not a clue TBH !!

1 minute ago, The Coach said:

Oh players definitely need to burden the criticism also. But yes, it definitely feels time now for Southgate to leave. My only concern is the FA and their next choice. Do they go with the logical choice of Graham Potter? Do they do their usual and go with their man in Lee Carsley? Or do they reach for the stars and give Klopp a blank cheque book and let him write down whatever salary he wants. 
 

It will be a very interesting next appointment. Make it a good one and I’d feel confident going into the WC 2026.

None of the above is my guess 

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, Markman said:

I am sure the Netherlands are quaking in their boots at the prospect of playing us!

All I would ask is name me one England side since the 1970 World Cup that anyone decent would have been shitting themselves at having to play. One will do

[LondonBristolian]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I tend to agree with you…I think we’ve been worse / less good (?) in this tournament than previously, hence why it feels it’s one tournament too far for GS imho.  I think he made a rod for his own back with his squad seiection and that’s borne out in performances.  I’m not really giving him any credit, but I do think he unfairly gets the brunt of the criticism.

But “we” are now in the semis, he’s built a resilient bunch to some extent.  Our own views will decide whether it’s (the good and the bad) down to him or the players.  My own view is that the players aren’t as good as we think they are at this level.  Even Hal Robson-Kanu was capable of a wonder goal!  But also GS isn’t coaching them as well as he needs to either.  So a bit of both…and I think we should let this be his last tournament, win or lose.

I sort of agree and disagree about the players. I think Bellingham, Saka, Foden, Rice and Kane (who does not appear fit) are bona fide world class talents whilst Pickford, Stones and Palmer would get into pretty much any international final 23 of any country whilst Guehi has really impressed me.

The problem is it is an unbalanced squad with obvious weaknesses. It was a massive mistake in my view to not pick a second left back but the only plausible fit option - Tyrick Mitchell - is decent rather than outstanding. Trippier is out of form at the wrong time and Walker’s age may be catching up with him. Kane looks out of sorts and, whilst we’ve got good options in defensive and attacking midfield, it is hard to work them into an obvious combination that gets the best out of all of them.

So I think we’ve got the players but not the team, if that makes sense…

[phantom]

1 minute ago, LondonBristolian said:

So I think we’ve got the players but not the team, if that makes sense…

Completely agree, our squad are all pretty much brilliant players at their respective clubs, but then these squads are purposefully put together to get the best of each player. 

Where as in International football it's trying to get those players to click with players with different strengths and weaknesses 

[MarcusX]

58 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Ah the classic ‘penalty shoot outs are luck’ cliche.  5 perfect penalties aren’t luck. Skill 

And a keeper (and staff) who’ve done their homework and have a good idea which way the opposition are going each time, and then has the quality to make the saves.

[Numero Uno]

20 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

England's well practiced 4-2-3-1 has been the basis of England's defensive resilience over years and tournaments. England are a tough nut to score against. Its efficient. England would be that tough nut to score against playing like they did post Swiss goal last night.

England ceded defensive control in extra time. England ended with three defenders and Declan Rice, and then six attackers on the pitch. Four and a six. England historically under Southgate have played six and four. The structure was lost in front of the back three. It was not what Mr Southgate's England do

 

It’s interesting that we can get the system wrong, the coaching wrong and still end up in a semi-final. I’m not saying it isn’t wrong mind but it shows that it isn’t always the be all and end all. We play predominantly possession football and it’s too slow, when we do knock it long we don’t get bodies around the ball, on the face of it we do a lot “wrong”. It’s a fact that far better “drilled” players than ours who showed more of a team ethos in terms of shape, intensity and possession than we have are flying out to Ibiza, Marbs, wherever for a week right now!!

Funny game isn’t it?!!

Edited July 7 by Numero Uno

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, MarcusX said:

And a keeper (and staff) who’ve done their homework and have a good idea which way the opposition are going each time, and then has the quality to make the saves.

Maybe it’s luck they put the hours in! 

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, Markman said:

I am sure the Netherlands are quaking in their boots at the prospect of playing us!

Unless they’re fools, the Netherlands are going to go into the game very aware that they could easily lose. They’ve a similar record to us of not seeing through the big moments and their team is decent but not outstanding. We shouldn’t underestimate them but we shouldn’t see them as more outstanding than they are. 

[Kid in the Riot]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I sort of agree and disagree about the players. I think Bellingham, Saka, Foden, Rice and Kane (who does not appear fit) are bona fide world class talents whilst Pickford, Stones and Palmer would get into pretty much any international final 23 of any country whilst Guehi has really impressed me.

The problem is it is an unbalanced squad with obvious weaknesses. It was a massive mistake in my view to not pick a second left back but the only plausible fit option - Tyrick Mitchell - is decent rather than outstanding. Trippier is out of form at the wrong time and Walker’s age may be catching up with him. Kane looks out of sorts and, whilst we’ve got good options in defensive and attacking midfield, it is hard to work them into an obvious combination that gets the best out of all of them.

So I think we’ve got the players but not the team, if that makes sense…

Kane is so obviously not fully fit. Not even close to being fully fit. Buck ultimately stops with Southgate for playing him, however politically tough to leave him out as we saw with Ronaldo and Portugal, and now Mbappe and France (apparently he's barely slept since breaking his nose). 

Kane should be telling Southgate he isn't fit and not available to start. He has history of putting himself ahead of the team too, as I recall he was basically hobbling around on one leg for the two finals he appeared for Spurs in - Champs League and League Cup (I think?)

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, phantom said:

Completely agree, our squad are all pretty much brilliant players at their respective clubs, but then these squads are purposefully put together to get the best of each player. 

Where as in International football it's trying to get those players to click with players with different strengths and weaknesses 

Foden is the perfect example. Absolutely brilliant system player for Pep, him and Kev are the first names on the team sheet, Foden is underwhelming in an England shirt up to now and Kev is on the piss somewhere.

[Shaun Taylor]

3 hours ago, Swede said:

It was a better performance overall but his failure in selecting a fit left back continues to undermine his reliance on certain players no matter what their form is. Therefore you get a very disjointed possession based game of chess. He's very safety first and there's a feeling for me that he's holding this group of talented individuals back. Its his job to mould them all together into a team and I think its now beyond him. He fits the FA profile so he's pretty safe.

Its fine margins but we have stuttered to a semi final on the weaker side of the draw, great.

Spot on with your assessment and how disjoined England were. As soon as Southgate made the changes and brought on players that could attack down the left side we looked threatening down both flanks where before there was an over load down the right wing and Switzerland were often putting 2/3 players to stop Saka. 

its been clear in all the games that England were no threat on the left side but Southgate didn’t seem to see it that way.

I would start with the team that finished yesterday even if that means Kane and Foden on the bench but we know the manager isn’t brave enough to do that!

[RedRock]

2 hours ago, The Bard said:

Love reading the opinions of all the ex international coaches on here who can clearly see how you manage and coach a side at a major championships.  Obviously getting to the semi finals is in spite of the coach not because of him.  We'd be much better with a new man.

The reality is that when he leaves, we will dip down to where we were unless they have hidden a good manager somewhere in the FA system that we haven't heard of. 

 

If we appoint a coach from ‘somewhere in the FA system’ that will be it for me. 

It is the ‘FA system’ that has produced coaches that play passive, possession-based, mind-numbingly dull football. I fear greatly that Manning is one of their products and can only hope that he is smart enough to realise that attempting to play the Spanish style of 80’s football is now totally outdated.

The game has moved on. Fast paced, front foot, aggressive attacking football with high skills the way to go now. We have the players who are capable of delivering that we just need to take the FA handbrake off and allow them to display their natural talent rather than act like pre-programmed sideways and backward passing robots.

Only FA coaching can turn the likes of Bellingham into a rank mediocre player in the space of 3 weeks and totally destroy the natural talent and flair of Rashford in a couple of years. 

[phantom]

9 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

And a keeper (and staff) who’ve done their homework and have a good idea which way the opposition are going each time, and then has the quality to make the saves.

 

[Jackson Lamb]

18 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Perhaps, but my money is on a France vs England final.  End result ? ........................ not a clue TBH !!

None of the above is my guess 

Anyone else you feel Tone?

[phantom]

Just now, RedRock said:

If we appoint a coach from ‘somewhere in the FA system’ that will be it for me. 

It is the ‘FA system’ that has produced coaches that play passive, possession-based, mind-numbingly dull football. I fear greatly that Manning is one of their products and can only hope that he is smart enough to realise that attempting to play the Spanish style of 80’s football is now totally outdated.

The game has moved on. Fast paced, front foot, aggressive attacking football with high skills the way to go now. We have the players who are capable of delivering that we just need to take the FA handbrake off and allow them to display their natural talent rather than act like pre-programmed sideways and backward passing robots.

Only FA coaching can turn the likes of Bellingham into a rank mediocre player in the space of 3 weeks and totally destroy the natural talent and flair of Rashford in a couple of years. 

Whilst I agree with you, tournament football is solely about winning games and not about providing entertainment 

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, RedRock said:

If we appoint a coach from ‘somewhere in the FA system’ that will be it for me. 

It is the ‘FA system’ that has produced coaches that play passive, possession-based, mind-numbingly dull football. I fear greatly that Manning is one of their products and can only hope that he is smart enough to realise that attempting to play the Spanish style of 80’s football is now totally outdated.

The game has moved on. Fast paced, front foot, aggressive attacking football with high skills the way to go now. We have the players who are capable of delivering that we just need to take the FA handbrake off and allow them to display their natural talent rather than act like pre-programmed sideways and backward passing robots.

Only FA coaching can turn the likes of Bellingham into a rank mediocre player in the space of 3 weeks and totally destroy the natural talent and flair of Rashford in a couple of years. 

I think Rashford has to take some responsibility himself for the lack of performance he has shown for 12 months plus now.

[MarcusX]

I’m going to stick my neck out and say last night was better, and tactically I actually think he got it right at the start.

The shape worked well, Trippier was one of our highest players on the pitch which meant despite their 2 midfielders sitting on Rice and Mainoo, Bellingham and Foden were able to find space in that half back area and get on the ball.

On the right, walker and Saka doubled up well again higher up the pitch and caused problems. Unfortunately several balls went in and Kane was nowhere to be seen and were left with “0 shots on target” as the marker of performance in that first half.

Saka was also able to get on the ball in better positions where he could face up his opponent rather than having his marker right up behind him and back to goal. That allowed him to have those defenders on toast all night - and ultimately getting so much joy down the outside probably enabled him a bit more space on the inside to cut in for the goal.

One thing we commented on was how often the ball went from Stones direct to Saka which was much quicker than going via Walker each time.

We pressed quite well out of possession too, forcing them into mistakes and not allowing them to play through the middle.

It’s easy to criticise him for not changing soon enough, and I’d agree, but generally his subs have improved us each game. Palmer is brilliant to bring on, I don’t know if he’s as effective to start but he has to be knocking on the door. They did adapt quicker than us and the goal came through our problem side, but none of the defence did them self any favours with that goal tbh. tripper jumped and sold himself, Konsa was megged, Stones unconvincing block deflected it and Walker got wrong side.

Extra time granted the shape went out of the window a little bit, and it seemed more about getting penalty takers on the pitch. I felt we might lose it in that extra time actually, far less controlled than Slovakia game.

4 minutes ago, phantom said:

 

Shame he misread Schar, or forgot he went the opposite way

[The chief]

4 hours ago, JAWS said:

Imagine what Sir Bobby or El Tel would've done with this squad over the last 3 tournaments 

Southgate’s achieved more than either of those 2 legends of the game as he’s got us to a final . 
 

im not suggesting he’s a better coach, far from it. His methods, though frustrating and dull seem to work in tournament football .

I personally think we had better squads in 90 and 96 so perhaps Southgate has done pretty well, at the expense of entertainment/cohesive football.

baffled with the ongoing selection of trippier on the left tho. 

[Roger Red Hat]

31 minutes ago, The Coach said:

Oh players definitely need to burden the criticism also. But yes, it definitely feels time now for Southgate to leave. My only concern is the FA and their next choice. Do they go with the logical choice of Graham Potter? Do they do their usual and go with their man in Lee Carsley? Or do they reach for the stars and give Klopp a blank cheque book and let him write down whatever salary he wants. 
 

It will be a very interesting next appointment. Make it a good one and I’d feel confident going into the WC 2026.

Pochettino?

[JAWS]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

Ah the classic ‘penalty shoot outs are luck’ cliche.  5 perfect penalties aren’t luck. Skill 

I didn't say luck. I said probability. Probability is we don't score 5 perfect pens next time. And if we're that skilful why aren't we beating teams in 90 mins let alone 120?

[phantom]

11 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Shame he misread Schar, or forgot he went the opposite way

He stepped that way initially too

[Numero Uno]

4 minutes ago, JAWS said:

I didn't say luck. I said probability. Probability is we don't score 5 perfect pens next time. And if we're that skilful why aren't we beating teams in 90 mins let alone 120?

We do have some excellent players but they don’t have the opportunity to produce the same for England in a system designed to protect our weaknesses that they do alongside better players at club level where the emphasis is on dominating. Great players alongside great players but not “great” in the sense of a Maradona, Reinaldo or Messi that could drag a mediocre side into a winning side at the highest level.

[And Its Smith]

12 minutes ago, JAWS said:

I didn't say luck. I said probability. Probability is we don't score 5 perfect pens next time. And if we're that skilful why aren't we beating teams in 90 mins let alone 120?

Try and find some enjoyment somewhere would be my advice

[BigTone]

25 minutes ago, The Coach said:

Anyone else you feel Tone?

If we win this then I expect Southgate to still be our man

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

It’s interesting that we can get the system wrong, the coaching wrong and still end up in a semi-final. I’m not saying it isn’t wrong mind but it shows that it isn’t always the be all and end all. We play predominantly possession football and it’s too slow, when we do knock it long we don’t get bodies around the ball, on the face of it we do a lot “wrong”. It’s a fact that far better “drilled” players than ours who showed more of a team ethos in terms of shape and possession than we have are flying out to Ibiza, Mary’s, wherever for a week right now!!

Funny game isn’t it?!!

Mr Southgate's team could have slapped the arse of every team they played against and would still be in the fine position they are now, but England have got to the Semi Final by staying in games, and having wonderful individuals to drag the team away from being seconds away from defeat versus Slovakia.

I don't think its luck that England stay in games and are very hard to score against, this has been a theme of Mr Southgate's reign. Defensively England are very good, and that is down to Mr Southgate.

Offensively. In possession. And with World class players, a highly top talented squad England are not very good. A reflection of Mr Southgates football. 

 

[CiderCraig]

29 minutes ago, JAWS said:

I didn't say luck. I said probability. Probability is we don't score 5 perfect pens next time. And if we're that skilful why aren't we beating teams in 90 mins let alone 120?

 

16 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Try and find some enjoyment somewhere would be my advice

I feel some people aren't happy unless they're miserable.

We're in the semi-final, we may well win the whole thing. But even if we win 5-0 in the final, some people will inevitably state "it should've been 6". 

[Ecko]

48 minutes ago, JAWS said:

I didn't say luck. I said probability. Probability is we don't score 5 perfect pens next time. And if we're that skilful why aren't we beating teams in 90 mins let alone 120?

Come on mate, lighten up. We're in the semi finals. If you cannot enjoy this, then when can you?

Yes, the performances haven't been great on the whole, but rarely do teams consistently perform in cup tournaments. 

Another win and we're in back to back finals for the first time ever. Would you had taken that when we had Hodgson and Capello in charge?!

[JAWS]

5 minutes ago, Ecko said:

Come on mate, lighten up. We're in the semi finals. If you cannot enjoy this, then when can you?

Yes, the performances haven't been great on the whole, but rarely do teams consistently perform in cup tournaments. 

Another win and we're in back to back finals for the first time ever. Would you had taken that when we had Hodgson and Capello in charge?!

I was ecstatic when the winning pen went in but can't wipe out the mediocre performances before that. Literally everyone saying we can't keep playing the same way & he has to change next game and now all of a sudden its forgotten. Just saying we need to be better 

[And Its Smith]

26 minutes ago, CiderCraig said:

 

I feel some people aren't happy unless they're miserable.

We're in the semi-final, we may well win the whole thing. But even if we win 5-0 in the final, some people will inevitably state "it should've been 6". 

Exactly. Beat Spain 5-0 and it will be “Southgate is so lucky Spain didn’t turn up tonight.”

[JAWS]

10 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Exactly. Beat Spain 5-0 and it will be “Southgate is so lucky Spain didn’t turn up tonight.”

Now your being silly 

[Numero Uno]

19 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Exactly. Beat Spain 5-0 and it will be “Southgate is so lucky Spain didn’t turn up tonight.”

You meant France? We all know it's England v France nailed on!!!!!

[Oh Louie louie]

Scoring five against Spain, score one hed shut up shop then we would lose

[Maltshoveller]

37 minutes ago, JAWS said:

I was ecstatic when the winning pen went in but can't wipe out the mediocre performances before that. Literally everyone saying we can't keep playing the same way & he has to change next game and now all of a sudden its forgotten. Just saying we need to be better 

Mediocre!! 

What would you do different PEP?

[LondonBristolian]

2 hours ago, The Coach said:

Oh players definitely need to burden the criticism also. But yes, it definitely feels time now for Southgate to leave. My only concern is the FA and their next choice. Do they go with the logical choice of Graham Potter? Do they do their usual and go with their man in Lee Carsley? Or do they reach for the stars and give Klopp a blank cheque book and let him write down whatever salary he wants. 
 

It will be a very interesting next appointment. Make it a good one and I’d feel confident going into the WC 2026.

I think the complexity is working out whether a club manager could translate their work to international football or not.

If you take someone like Guardiola for example, he'd have to find a way to work that didn't involve the intense level of coaching, drilling and developing players that he does at club level. He's a brilliant enough manager that he could probably do that but you look at someone like Sacchi who never quite managed to translate his methods from club football into the same level of performance internationally. 

I think Klopp is potentially someone who could - in that he could probably get a group of players to bond quickly and is tactical without being intricately detailed - but any club manager is always going to have a question mark as to whether they could do it internationally. Pretty much any appointment is a gamble to some extent. 

[BigTone]

1 hour ago, JAWS said:

I didn't say luck. I said probability. Probability is we don't score 5 perfect pens next time. And if we're that skilful why aren't we beating teams in 90 mins let alone 120?

Probably because the opposition aren't as crap as you think they are ?

[Mendip Broadwalk]

4 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think the complexity is working out whether a club manager could translate their work to international football or not.

If you take someone like Guardiola for example, he'd have to find a way to work that didn't involve the intense level of coaching, drilling and developing players that he does at club level. He's a brilliant enough manager that he could probably do that but you look at someone like Sacchi who never quite managed to translate his methods from club football into the same level of performance internationally. 

I think Klopp is potentially someone who could - in that he could probably get a group of players to bond quickly and is tactical without being intricately detailed - but any club manager is always going to have a question mark as to whether they could do it internationally. Pretty much any appointment is a gamble to some extent. 

Isnt Klopps football some of the most physically demanding because of the yards they do?? Thats Bellingham and Kane binned.  

[LondonBristolian]

6 hours ago, JAWS said:

Imagine what Sir Bobby or El Tel would've done with this squad over the last 3 tournaments 

We'd be very lucky if they'd done as well. Neither ever reached a final, whereas Southgate did.

Euro 96, Venables was getting pilloried before the tournament for a drinking culture and poor friendly results. We limped to a 1-1 draw against Switzerland before a solid performance against Scotland, which is slightly over-inflated in people's minds due to Gascoigne's superb goal and the fact Scotland are rivals. We then were brilliant against the Dutch, drew 0-0 against a Spain team who are not the Spain team of now and then went out in the semi-finals.

World Cup 90 - we drew two games before scraping through with a 1-0 v Egypt and there were claims - denied by Robson - that the players forced him into a tactical change. We scraped through against Belgium in extra time due to Platt doing a Bellingham and needed extra time to beat Cameroon too, coming back from behind with seven minutes to go. 

Euro 88 we played 3 and lost 3 and Euro 86 we didn't qualify. World Cup '86 we all know about. 

I'm not knocking Venables or Robson as managers but nostalgia covers up the fact that barely any teams in history have gone into a major tournament and played brilliantly for seven games solid. What Southgate has done, despite the performances, is go through four major tournaments without an early exit. Unless we win, this tournament is not going to live in the imagination like Italia '90 or Euro '96 but that doesn't mean Robson or Venables would have got better results over four tournaments. I'm not certain any other manager would. 

[JAWS]

22 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

Mediocre!! 

What would you do different PEP?

Play players in their natural positions for a start. Don't have a RB playing LB with a no.10 in front of him. And play your best players ie. Palmer.

Don't need to be Pep. In fact pretty much the whole country, including every pundit, been saying the same for the tournament so far. Have you been on holiday? 

 

[Cowshed]

25 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

Mediocre!! 

What would you do different PEP?

I am two badges down from the great one but I will have a pop.

                                      Pickford

                      Walker   Stones  Guehi    Shaw

                                  Mainoo    Rice

               Saka            Bellingham              Palmer

                                     Toney     

 

 

               

[Maltshoveller]

Just now, Cowshed said:

I am two badges down from the great one but I will have a pop.

                                      Pickford

                      Walker   Stones  Guehi    Shaw

                                  Mainoo    Rice

               Saka            Bellingham              Palmer

                                     Toney     

 

 

               

Each to their own

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, Maltshoveller said:

Each to their own

Width and depth.

[BigTone]

10 minutes ago, JAWS said:

Play players in their natural positions for a start. Don't have a RB playing LB with a no.10 in front of him. And play your best players ie. Palmer.

Don't need to be Pep. In fact pretty much the whole country, including every pundit, been saying the same for the tournament so far. Have you been on holiday? 

 

Are we or are we not in the semi finals ?  Would we be further advanced under your direction ?

[Northern Red]

1 hour ago, JAWS said:

Now your being silly 

I'm not sure he is, not based on the last few years of evidence.

[Maltshoveller]

12 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Width and depth.

No Foden?

[Maltshoveller]

22 minutes ago, JAWS said:

Play players in their natural positions for a start. Don't have a RB playing LB with a no.10 in front of him. And play your best players ie. Palmer.

Don't need to be Pep. In fact pretty much the whole country, including every pundit, been saying the same for the tournament so far. Have you been on holiday? 

 

No holiday

Just asked you what you would do

For the record Agree with all your points

[robin_unreliant]

30 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I am two badges down from the great one but I will have a pop.

                                      Pickford

                      Walker   Stones  Guehi    Shaw

                                  Mainoo    Rice

               Saka            Bellingham              Palmer

                                     Toney     

 

 

               

Given that Shaw hasn't been fit, who would you have been playing LB?

[Ska Junkie]

Let's hope the football team can follow Lewis and beat the Dutch (Belgian).

 

[Cowshed]

12 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

No Foden?

No. The player is not providing width.

Also no Kane and no three players occupying the same zones. This three occupying the same spaces is failing, and is detrimental to the team. Kane looks energy less and is not linking up play, Yesterday he made a minuscule number of contributions to the team in possession, and also was not an option when Saka repeatedly beat his man.  

England's front attacking three yesterday were narrow in the 3-4-2-1. They 2-1 kept dropping. No width, less depth.  

Another wide player and a forward playing forwards increases the width and depth England have not been playing with.

In this 4-2-3-1 the 3-1 would be wide and high. It is different thing to what England have been doing. And Toney will be more of a means of an out ball to Pickford who has not been able to secure possession long to Kane despite his very high level of skill, and Toney can run in behind opponents. 

[Maltshoveller]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

No. The player is not providing width.

Also no Kane and no three players occupying the same zones. This three occupying the same spaces is failing, and is detrimental to the team. Kane looks energy less and is not linking up play, Yesterday he made a minuscule number of contributions to the team in possession, and also was not an option when Saka repeatedly beat his man.  

England's front attacking three yesterday were narrow in the 3-4-2-1. They 2-1 kept dropping. No width, less depth.  

Another wide player and a forward playing forwards increases the width and depth England have not been playing with.

In this 4-2-3-1 the 3-1 would be wide and high. It is different thing to what England have been doing. And Toney will be more of a means of an out ball to Pickford who has not been able to secure possession long to Kane despite his very high level of skill, and Toney can run in behind opponents. 

Only changes i would make to the side you picked would be

Bellingham where your playing Mainoo

Foden where you had Bellingham

IMO Foden is a better 10 than Bellingham is