Come on, England

[harvey54]

Takes an unfit left back to a tournament

Plays players out of position and experiments at the tournament 

Plays an unfit striker on his own and refuses to drop him when obviously out of form/injured.

Waits far too long to use game changing subs 

If Maguire had been fit Guehi or Konsa wouldn't have got a game

Fails to engage with fans and bristles at criticism from ex players who know what they're talking about. 

Gets to a World Cup semi, goes one nil up and loses

Gets to a Euro final, goes one nil up and loses 

Has no plan B 

Time for him to go, get a job managing a lower league team and get some experience although I'd not let him anywhere near my team. 

Nice bloke though, apparently 

[Selred]

3 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Well he won't be troubling the trophy cleaner

Most negative manager we have ever had, a serial loser, missed penalty when playing, relegated at Middlesbrough as manager and won nothing with a very talented England squad

That may be your view. But he still delivered more than any other manager since 1966.

[Nugget]

The team just had this weird mentality where they needed to go behind to kick into gear and go for it a bit, there were those few minutes after the England goal where they had some dominance, but Spain were always in control, fantastic football, they passed it around at the back a bit too, but with purpose, you could see the gaps they were looking to open up / create, went through the middle like a knife through butter. I think we do have the players to play a similar system as Spain, some weren't on the pitch though, the Spanish coach let them enjoy themselves and play with freedom, our guys looked like they'd been told to be defensive, we looked cautious and were lucky to even be in the final. Could have quite easily been a hammering last night, Spain were just levels above, deserved winners, really enjoyable to watch too and England need a refresh now. 

[Northern Red]

So lads, who's the serial winner who's guaranteed to bring success whilst playing glorious attacking football that will definitely be interested in the job?

Edited July 15 by Northern Red

[Fordy62]

10 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Well he won't be troubling the trophy cleaner

Most negative manager we have ever had, a serial loser, missed penalty when playing, relegated at Middlesbrough as manager and won nothing with a very talented England squad

Im so far from a Southgate fan it’s untrue, but I’m not sure the missing a penalty is a stick to beat him with!  

[TDarwall]

1 minute ago, Northern Red said:

So lads, who's the serial winner who's guaranteed to bring success whilst playing glorious attacking football that will definitely be interested in the job?

Steve McLaren or Fabio Capello get my vote!

[Red Army 75]

One good thing, at least when I go into work now, non football people will stop talking to me about football. 

[harvey54]

4 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

So lads, who's the serial winner who's guaranteed to bring success whilst playing glorious attacking football that will definitely be interested in the job?

Klopp? 

[Fordy62]

3 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

So lads, who's the serial winner who's guaranteed to bring success whilst playing glorious attacking football that will definitely be interested in the job?

I don’t think someone needs to bring guaranteed success. If you’re going to play shit football you need to win, simple as that. It either needs to be successful or entertaining. I’d take either. But being shit and tactically having no idea is not acceptable. Case in point bringing Toney on in the 92nd minute. Just utterly baffling. 

So I’d take the getting knocked out in the quarters against Argentina/Spain/France and the like, so long as our players have been coached to play at the best of their ability. And that’s one sticking point that even the most fervent of Southgate fans cannot argue, this team have been absolutely nowhere near what they’re capable of. And that’s on one man. 

[italian dave]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Southgate had probably run his course yeah.

A tournament too far really, seemed a bit unclear on shape then both too loyal in some ways, not radical enough in others.

He has done good things but I feel it is one too far..8 years is probably enough.

We have a good goal to shot efficiency under him often- in tournaments and at times qualifiers certainly, that can't be denied.

A tournament too far? A tournament at which we reached the final before losing in the 86th minute to an exceptional team who were by far the best in Europe.

The first tournament I remember was in 1966. Pretty much all my life since then has been a litany of failure: not failure to win finals, but failure to qualify, embarrassing failure at group stages. Until the last 8 years.

Which is why I absolutely don’t get the grief that Southgate gets. My instinct says that he’ll decide to call it a day. But if he stays on then I’d be quite happy with that and good luck to him.

But I’d swear that there are some posters on here whose reaction to City finishing second next season would be to complain that we hadn’t taken the title.

(And not really directing that last comment at you: I appreciate that you have a view that may differ to mine but is balanced and justified - it was just your tournament too far comment that prompted me to use your post!) 

[frenchred]

11 minutes ago, Selred said:

That may be your view. But he still delivered more than any other manager since 1966.

He's "delivered" no more and no less than every manager since Ramsey. Nothing!

[italian dave]

1 minute ago, frenchred said:

He's "delivered" no more and no less than every manager since Ramsey. Nothing!

Well, qualification for tournaments is a start…..

[Numero Uno]

9 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Im so far from a Southgate fan it’s untrue, but I’m not sure the missing a penalty is a stick to beat him with!  

Agreed, lunatic take. Of all the things you can criticise Southgate for that isn't one of them.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

2008 - DNQ - 0 Goals

2010 - Round of 16 - 3 Goals

2012 - QF - 5 goals

2014 - Group - 2 goals

2016 - Knocked out by Iceland - 4 goals

Total Knockout wins 0

 

2018 - SF - 12 Goals

2020 - Final - 11 goals

2022 - QF - 13 goals

2024 - Final - 8 goals

Total knock out wins 9

This tournament may have been a step too far for Southgate. But what he has achieved in the last eight years has brought hope back to summer football. 

[TDarwall]

1 minute ago, italian dave said:

 

But I’d swear that there are some posters on here whose reaction to City finishing second next season would be to complain that we hadn’t taken the title.

 

That may be a stretch, but if we got to the PO final, many would say a decent manager would have got us promoted!

For some football fans the default position is "things can only get better". In my experience, managerial change often makes things worse.

That said, I do think now is the time for a change.  But for those that say he's achieved nothing, that essentially means bar Alf Ramsay, no England manager has achieved anything ever, & had their been goal line technology, Alf would have been a failure too!

[Selred]

5 minutes ago, frenchred said:

He's "delivered" no more and no less than every manager since Ramsey. Nothing!

He’s delivered two finals, one semi final.

That’s more than others who did not qualify, went out in groups, or went out in quarters. 

Furthermore it shows how hard the job is, if it was so easy we’d have more trophies than 1 in 1966…

Edited July 15 by Selred

[Northern Red]

7 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

Klopp? 

I honestly don't think he'd want it. And if he did I'd question his sanity, frankly.

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

One good thing, at least when I go into work now, non football people will stop talking to me about football. 

Possibly the most annoying thing of any England tournament. People who don’t know John Stones from the Rolling Stones expressing opinions they’ve heard second or third hand. Tossers paying £70 for a ticket to box park in order to buy a pint and throw it in the air while not watching the game. Ross ****ing Kemp being thrown up all over social media by doing a TikTok after we score as opposed to WATCHING THE BLOODY GAME. A montage of celebrities on the BBC in agent purchased England shirts giving facile plaudits off an autocue. Bell and bloody Spurling. Shite “It’s coming home” memes. People making the same Schofield gag continually. Not being able to get in the pub because the same people who jumped on every bandwagon got there first. People putting flags on their cars. People who don’t like football pretending to like football.

Love to the Family.

[MarcusX]

18 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

Takes an unfit left back to a tournament

A gamble that almost paid off, Shaw was very good last night I thought

18 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

Plays players out of position and experiments at the tournament 

He couldn't use his players in the friendlies because their seasons ran so long, so he had to try something different

18 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

Plays an unfit striker on his own and refuses to drop him when obviously out of form/injured.

Unfit striker still finished top scorer (and golden boot of tournament again)

He'd get absolute pelters if he didn't play Kane as well tbf

Biggest criticism from me is why we didn't play runners along side him like we did in Qatar and 2021

18 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

Waits far too long to use game changing subs 

He's improved though, his subs are changing games. He took Kane off early last night

18 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

If Maguire had been fit Guehi or Konsa wouldn't have got a game

Is that a bad thing? Maguire wouldn't have made us any worse defensively and would have given us some sort of threat up the other end from corners. He scores that header that Rice put over IMO.

18 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

Fails to engage with fans and bristles at criticism from ex players who know what they're talking about. 

Not sure how he fails to engage with fans? strange shout that.

18 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

Gets to a World Cup semi, goes one nil up and loses

Gets to a Euro final, goes one nil up and loses 

Has no plan B 

Disagree again, he clearly does have a "plan b" because his subs changed the games. Can criticise "plan a" all we want, but he did make changes and his subs won games. Last night Palmer scores and Toney should have got an equaliser

18 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

Time for him to go, get a job managing a lower league team and get some experience although I'd not let him anywhere near my team. 

Nice bloke though, apparently 

Probably is time for him to go, purely because he's "lost" the fan base now. I think if he stays any longer now he risks undoing all the good work he did to re-unite the country.

Weird to say after making another final, but I do probably agree that for everything great he's done off the pitch, and some of his on-pitch work, he isn't a tactical genius and he probably will always fall short at some point.

Long story short - one of the best we've had, but not without his flaws.

Thank you Gareth Southgate not only for giving us the best 6-8 years following England in a generation, but also probably one of the best 3-4 weeks personally of my life experiencing this in Germany.

[TDarwall]

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

Possibly the most annoying thing of any England tournament. People who don’t know John Stones from the Rolling Stones expressing opinions they’ve heard second or third hand. Tossers paying £70 for a ticket to box park in order to buy a pint and throw it in the air while not watching the game. Ross ****ing Kemp being thrown up all over social media by doing a TikTok after we score as opposed to WATCHING THE BLOODY GAME. A montage of celebrities on the BBC in agent purchased England shirts giving facile plaudits off an autocue. Bell and bloody Spurling. Shite “It’s coming home” memes. People making the same Schofield gag continually. Not being able to get in the pub because the same people who jumped on every bandwagon got there first. People putting flags on their cars. People who don’t like football pretending to like football.

Love to the Family.

Can I add ... that joke about a wedding clashing with the final, "she's 5f 5 & moderately attractive" etc.

If you buy a pint purely to have your mate video you throwing it when we score, you should be banned from drinking for 6 months.

[KegCity]

Going against the grain here, I think Southgate deserves the World Cup as a final tournament if he wants to stay on. The progress we've made with him in charge is undeniable.

The problems we had throughout the tournament was that we didn't have runners in behind, which is what Kane needs, and we lacked a quality partner for Rice. Personally I wouldn't have shoehorned Foden in alongside Bellingham as he contributed very little, there's not a lot we can do about not having a good enough partner for Rice. 

We have talented attacking players (who don't compliment each other), we have a solid enough central defence and goalkeeper, but we're lacking at full back and in central midfield. Personally think reaching the final is a very good achievement as we certainly weren't the second best squad, or team, at the start of the tournament. Got to either set up to play to Kane's strengths, and play Gordon etc. who run in behind, or move on from Kane and play Watkins who suits Bellingham and Foden.

[Fordy62]

Here’s an interesting question:

Hypothetically where would Southgate’s England finish in the Premier League? 

(for clarity, every England player gets cloned so their original form gets to stay with their parent club too). 

They obviously get the same amount of training together as any premier league team would.

I reckon they finish 12th. More than capable of the odd upset of the top 6, but largely underperforming. 

Edited July 15 by Fordy62

[Coppello]

3 minutes ago, Selred said:

He’s delivered two finals, one semi final.

That’s more than others who did not qualify, went out in groups, or went out in quarters. 

Furthermore it shows how hard the job is, if it was so easy we’d have more trophies than 1 in 1966…

Completely agree. So many fans act as if England have some divine right to win and forget that the opposition want the trophy as much as we do. Success isn't just winning a trophy - would Arsenal fans say that the last few seasons under Arteta have been a failure or that is he is a 'bottle job'?

I do think it may be the right time for all parties for him to duck out but it's the comments that he's a failure and 'any decent manager would've won the last three tournaments' are so wide of the mark. He's made huge strides with the national team and he's actually made us believe. 

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

I honestly don't think he'd want it. And if he did I'd question his sanity, frankly.

England Manager is a job for the likes of Southgate.....blokes who have taken a hard knock in "real management" but still have some credibility. Got Potter or someone of similar ilk written all over it. Anyone with a current reputation wouldn't go near it with our fans and media. Why would you want to put up with the sort of comments you are reading on here this morning unless you needed the money?

When we get Potter or an equivalent that will be something else for the angry "Southgate missed a penalty so hang the bastard" boys to get even more furious about. A few on here this morning need to leave an emergency mobile number in case their head explodes clean off their shoulders....................

[MarcusX]

6 minutes ago, Selred said:

He’s delivered two finals, one semi final.

That’s more than others who did not qualify, went out in groups, or went out in quarters. 

Furthermore it shows how hard the job is, if it was so easy we’d have more trophies than 1 in 1966…

Victim of his own "success" in many ways.

96 was my first tournament, since then it's been quarter finals at best with the occasional group stage crash out, fail to qualify at all and a few embarrasing losses along the way.

He set the bar high with the semis in 2018 and from then it's always been "well he should do better"

I think he's got a very talented squad, but I think we have to be honest and say that some players shine for clubs who play various different systems and they don't all compliment each other. We have good players who dont or cant play their best position for England because we don't have the other players to sit alongside them.

Now of course, every other nation has similar issues - but that's why at every tournament at least one big gun goes out early or takes a humbling. We outlasted all the "big" nations to get to the final.

He's beaten with the stick of "only beaten teams we expect to" yet that hasn't been a guarentee with any previous manager except maybe Sven..? Even then, we were better than those 2 Portugal sides on paper - and you could argue that managing player temperement is good man management and a reason we haven't suffered over-emotion and red cards since in big games since?

I'm absolutely gutted today after last night, but not quite as bad as Italy 3 years ago. I think the best team won the tournament this year, they were very good and we were a couple of inches from taking them to extra time.

It'll be the success, or lack of, from the next manager that will define Southgate's legacy IMO. If someone comes in and takes this team to the next level then you can accept Gareth put the groundwork in but ultimately failed - if someone comes in and also fails to deliver, then perhaps we'll look back more fondly on him.

 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

Southgate may not have won a tournament, but his record across tournaments is way better than any previous England manager.  Equally importantly, he has made us a credible top-level team after years of being mediocre or even, at times, a laughing stock.  He has been dignified and articulate and has restored credibility not only to the post of England manager, but also to the national side itself.  He has taken the England squad into the modern era, not just in footballing terms but also in terms of the demographic of the players.

The role of the international manager is a strange one.  He doesn’t work with the players day after day, week after week.  The players are all being coached differently at their respective clubs and are being asked to play particular roles by their club managers which may not work in an international set-up.  Fodin plays the way he does at Man City because of the players he’s surrounded by at Man City: put him in a different group of players and he may need to play differently.  You cannot realistically take eleven players and expect them to perform together at international level in the same roles or even at the same level that they do for their club side, and this was very evident in the group stage of Euro 24.

England reached the final, and were level with minutes to go.  Anything could have happened in that last ten minutes, and it turned out that one brilliant move from Spain was decisive.  That’s football.  In the semi-final it was us that produced that moment of brilliance.  I don’t accept that be in the losing finalists in a major tournament represents failure.  Southgate took us to the final, and we lost by a single goal.  I don’t regard that as failure.

[Super]

30 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

So lads, who's the serial winner who's guaranteed to bring success whilst playing glorious attacking football that will definitely be interested in the job?

Potter apparently.

[AshtonGreat]

19 minutes ago, italian dave said:

A tournament too far? A tournament at which we reached the final before losing in the 86th minute to an exceptional team who were by far the best in Europe.

The first tournament I remember was in 1966. Pretty much all my life since then has been a litany of failure: not failure to win finals, but failure to qualify, embarrassing failure at group stages. Until the last 8 years.

Which is why I absolutely don’t get the grief that Southgate gets. My instinct says that he’ll decide to call it a day. But if he stays on then I’d be quite happy with that and good luck to him.

But I’d swear that there are some posters on here whose reaction to City finishing second next season would be to complain that we hadn’t taken the title.

(And not really directing that last comment at you: I appreciate that you have a view that may differ to mine but is balanced and justified - it was just your tournament too far comment that prompted me to use your post!) 

Personally I feel that - with the exception of Rodri - our players were at least equal to, if not better than, Spain's. And yet they played great football throughout the tournament while we were generally slow and turgid. That has to be on Southgate (although I accept that the players must take some responsibility)

[harvey54]

16 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

A gamble that almost paid off, Shaw was very good last night I thought

He couldn't use his players in the friendlies because their seasons ran so long, so he had to try something different

Unfit striker still finished top scorer (and golden boot of tournament again)

He'd get absolute pelters if he didn't play Kane as well tbf

Biggest criticism from me is why we didn't play runners along side him like we did in Qatar and 2021

He's improved though, his subs are changing games. He took Kane off early last night

Is that a bad thing? Maguire wouldn't have made us any worse defensively and would have given us some sort of threat up the other end from corners. He scores that header that Rice put over IMO.

Not sure how he fails to engage with fans? strange shout that.

Disagree again, he clearly does have a "plan b" because his subs changed the games. Can criticise "plan a" all we want, but he did make changes and his subs won games. Last night Palmer scores and Toney should have got an equaliser

Probably is time for him to go, purely because he's "lost" the fan base now. I think if he stays any longer now he risks undoing all the good work he did to re-unite the country.

Weird to say after making another final, but I do probably agree that for everything great he's done off the pitch, and some of his on-pitch work, he isn't a tactical genius and he probably will always fall short at some point.

Long story short - one of the best we've had, but not without his flaws.

Thank you Gareth Southgate not only for giving us the best 6-8 years following England in a generation, but also probably one of the best 3-4 weeks personally of my life experiencing this in Germany.

And that's why we love football. We all see games differently. I failed to add that we stunk out the group stage playing turgid football, only got past Slovakia because of a 95th minute worldie after stinking out that game and had the most blatantly wrong penalty decision to get past Holland.

If Gareth doesn't go we'll easily qualify for the next World Cup finals and this debate will roll on. 

(Job for Cotts)

Edited July 15 by harvey54

[harvey54]

12 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Here’s an interesting question:

Hypothetically where would Southgate’s England finish in the Premier League? 

(for clarity, every England player gets cloned so their original form gets to stay with their parent club too). 

They obviously get the same amount of training together as any premier league team would.

I reckon they finish 12th. More than capable of the odd upset of the top 6, but largely underperforming. 

Fordy you minx!! 

[lenred]

24 minutes ago, frenchred said:

He's "delivered" no more and no less than every manager since Ramsey. Nothing!

You remember ‘88? And ‘92? And ‘94. And ‘98. And 2000? I’ll stop there but you get the gist hopefully…….  
He’s ‘delivered’ big time.   Fallen at the final hurdles admittedly but it’s the best run out of a manager we’ve ever had.   A lot of people either have really really short memories or choose not to use them.  

[The chief]

11 hours ago, TV Tom said:

I don’t blame Southgate for being a shit and totally inept manager I blame the FA for keeping him in post four years too long 

Inept??! Ah come on now. We’ve got to 2 finals and a WC semi under him.  I remember not long ago not even qualifying for tournaments.
Yes his style and tactics are dull at times but our tournament record under him is the best out of any England manager . Ever. 

[Fordy62]

5 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

Fordy you minx!! 

No one has answered!

[robin_unreliant]

16 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Here’s an interesting question:

Hypothetically where would Southgate’s England finish in the Premier League? 

(for clarity, every England player gets cloned so their original form gets to stay with their parent club too). 

They obviously get the same amount of training together as any premier league team would.

I reckon they finish 12th. More than capable of the odd upset of the top 6, but largely underperforming. 

Where do you think a team with Morata up front would finish? International teams are generally nowhere near the level of top club sides for multiple reasons.

[Selred]

Just now, Fordy62 said:

No one has answered!

Because it’s ridiculous. You’re making a bizarre scenario up to try and bash Southgate with.

For a start international football and club football is very different as you buy and sell players to suit your system. 

[Fordy62]

1 minute ago, Selred said:

Because it’s ridiculous. You’re making a bizarre scenario up to try and bash Southgate with.

For a start international football and club football is very different as you buy and sell players to suit your system. 

You don’t want to answer do you? Because you know he’s limited as a manager. 

2 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

Where do you think a team with Morata up front would finish? International teams are generally nowhere near the level of top club sides for multiple reasons.

Ok, with that in mind… answer the question. I want to see how you really rate Southgate as a manager. 

[KegCity]

1 minute ago, Selred said:

Because it’s ridiculous. You’re making a bizarre scenario up to try and bash Southgate with.

For a start international football and club football is very different as you buy and sell players to suit your system. 

A fairer comparison would be the Champions League, as that's another tournament.

I think they would lose to the elite teams because they aren't limited to a small pool of players like England are.

[Selred]

Just now, Fordy62 said:

You don’t want to answer do you? Because you know he’s limited as a manager. 

He’s made 2 euros finals and a World Cup semi. More than any other manager since 1966.

That’s the facts. You can’t accept that, hence resorting to made up scenarios. You’re better than that. 

[MarcusX]

11 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

And that's why we love football. We all see games differently. I failed to add that we stunk out the group stage playing turgid football, only got past Slovakia because of a 95th minute worldie after stinking out that game and had the most blatantly wrong penalty decision to get past Holland.

If Gareth doesn't go we'll easily qualify for the next World Cup finals and this debate will roll on. 

(Job for Cotts)

I can't defend the performances, I can't for the life of me understand why we changed our style from 2022 with runners getting past Kane. Just look at the 2 goals against Germany, we really struggled to do anything like that this summer.

I'm happy for him to go if not just to stop the Southgate debate, because I genuinely believe no one is right or wrong - as you say just different views and you can make a a fairly valid argument either way about his time.

[KegCity]

1 minute ago, Fordy62 said:

You don’t want to answer do you? Because you know he’s limited as a manager. 

Ok, with that in mind… answer the question. I want to see how you really rate Southgate as a manager. 

I don't think it's all down to Southgate though. The players aren't all suited to the same style of football, we have weak areas and the squad isn't balanced. I've touched on it in my earlier post, we either have to play to suit Kane or play to suit a Bellingham/Foden pairing. They don't all work together as they all take up the same space and there's only Saka available as an outlet.

[italian dave]

2 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

No one has answered!

Because answering hypothetical questions is often fairly pointless. And this one is about as ridiculously hypothetical as they come.

You can go on arguing that other managers would have done better, this manager would have fared worse in other tournaments, he’d have done worse if we’d been playing different teams etc etc as much as you like. It’s all “if’s.  No-one knows. You don’t know. I don’t know. It’s all fairly pointless.

What is irrefutable is that Southgate has got us to three semi finals and two finals in 8 years - a better record than any other England manager. 

[ExiledAjax]

I watched last night's game in isolation, and as someone who's love for the England team has almost entirely evaporated in recent years, largely as a neutral. It's the first England game I've watched since the loss to France in 2022. 

I thought it was clear after 15 minutes that England would be lucky to win it. The defence held up well but it was a last ditch defence built on blocks, slide tackles and getting bodies on the line. We know from watching City that such a defence stops goals for a limited time only.

I said to a friend after 20 minutes that if Spain just got 5% sharper and quicker around the box then England were cooked.

Spain came out for the second half and played 20% sharper. England got cooked.

Southgate made some obviously necessary changes, and Spain took a few minutes to adapt, minutes in which England scored with a decent but speculative strike from outside the box. Well executed, but not indicative of incisive attacking play that could or would be repeated.

Spain then went through the gears and the winner that came was, I think, largely expected.

In general I thought it was a spirited but disjointed England team coming up against a Spanish side that were never out of control and had a plan for everything, even Rodri retiring at half time.

The main thing I'd be afraid of is doing the same thing all over again.

[KegCity]

1 minute ago, MarcusX said:

I can't defend the performances, I can't for the life of me understand why we changed our style from 2022 with runners getting past Kane. Just look at the 2 goals against Germany, we really struggled to do anything like that this summer.

I'm happy for him to go if not just to stop the Southgate debate, because I genuinely believe no one is right or wrong - as you say just different views and you can make a a fairly valid argument either way about his time.

Because there was a clamour to fit Foden into the side. 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Selred said:

2 finals. 1 semi. 
Consistently delivering in big tournaments. It’s not a one off. 

Has Mr Southgate delivered a team in this tournament that was playing to its best ability?

The identity of this team has been tough to score against and? 

Its football. Sideways backwards slow attempting to play positional possession football that has been ineffectual. Last nights football? Sideways backwards slow attempting to play positional possession football that was ineffectual leading to Pickford consistently having to launch the ball upfield, giving possession back to Spain, that is a flat contradiction to Southgate's possession principle. 

England's best football in this tournament was? When Southgate cast away that shell he had place over the team. England were best when going behind, when Southgate removed the shackles.

Last night was a tactical lesson handed to England. Mr Southgate has delivered pride, and togetherness and resilience to England, but last night the limitations in tactics and coaching were on display again. That second half tactically was an arse smacking. 

Spain were very very good. In the last final Italy were not Spain. That also also tactically saw England done, again caught in Mr Southgate's possession based conservative straight jacket.

Really good Manager, but Mr Southgate isn't as good a coach. Its shows, sadly, unfortunately.

Edited July 15 by Cowshed

[Fordy62]

1 minute ago, Selred said:

He’s made 2 euros finals and a World Cup semi. More than any other manager since 1966.

That’s the facts. You can’t accept that, hence resorting to made up scenarios. You’re better than that. 

I do accept it. I accept he’s our most successful manager. I just don’t think he’s very good and if we were to get a manager who could actually get us playing well, we’d have won/will win competitions. 

I said all along, there was only one man who’d stop us winning this tournament and it wasn’t Oyarzabal. 

[pillred]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

It's the usual garbage being written. Anyone sensible realises that England don't lack guts, they lack quality in certain areas and a refined tactical plan that is able to win against the best at the level. The second part is largely on Southgate and, actually, the first part is to a small extent when you have the likes of Grealish sat at home on his sofa and no natural left sided wide player in the squad...................any international team "lacking guts" (mental statement) playing Spain would be conceding double figures. Comment when you are angry and that's what comes out.

Mainoo after a great tournament found the game to be above his pay grade last night but he's young, will take a lot from that experience and will learn fast, Rice's reputation is slowly flushing down the shitter (has flat track bully written all over him on what I am seeing) and Bellingham clearly needs a rest and a significant mental reset if he's ever to become more than a "moments" player and actually impose himself on games which is something he didn't threaten to do at this tournament. I do think he's shifted from the positive arrogance that Cole Palmer displays to something more negative and it ain't a great look tbh. Kane will probably not be in an England shirt (or at least not starting) at the next tournament we qualify for, the same goes for Walker and possibly a few others.

I think a partial rebuild is required which needs some very tough decisions to be made as well as the potential for a bit of pain along the way as we bed younger players in and, for that reason, Gareth will declare himself "out". He may have had the appetite to do it as a tournament winner but as a nearly man I would guess he is more than happy with the job he has done overall, content to hide his family away from further flak that would come his way and will let the next guy cop it from our literally impossible to please fans and media.

You don't fancy having a go yourself? you sound like just the sort of person we could have done with out there, but yes it's hard to disagree with anything you have written.

[Selred]

Just now, Fordy62 said:

I do accept it. I accept he’s our most successful manager. I just don’t think he’s very good and if we were to get a manager who could actually get us playing well, we’d have won/will win competitions. 

I said all along, there was only one man who’d stop us winning this tournament and it wasn’t Oyarzabal. 

So Spain did not deserve to win?

Southgate is to blame for every result since 1966?

[italian dave]

1 minute ago, Fordy62 said:

I do accept it. I accept he’s our most successful manager. I just don’t think he’s very good and if we were to get a manager who could actually get us playing well, we’d have won/will win competitions. 

I said all along, there was only one man who’d stop us winning this tournament and it wasn’t Oyarzabal. 

Another “if”.

 

[Swede]

The best team won and more importantly, football won. Overall, to get to the final is an achievement in itself and who knows what would have happened if Olmo hadn't headed one off the line.

It strikes me that there is a better way of playing rather than a defence minded set up. If you look at the players on an individual basis I think England had the better players in Pickford, Walker, Stones, Guehi, Shaw, Bellingham, Foden, Kane. I just think we could've been more positive with it and been a little bit more attack minded. We shouldn't have to go one down before opening up and moving the ball quicker. Ultimately, I think this cautious approach cost us.

I think we also need a rethink/ overhaul and that starts with the head coach.

[Fordy62]

1 minute ago, Selred said:

So Spain did not deserve to win?

Southgate is to blame for every result since 1966?

Spain did deserve to win. I fail to see the point. We were Southgate’s England. Playing Southgate’s way - as we have all tournament. He’s extremely limited. An excellent group of players and continuously favourable draws have made you all consider Southgate to be more than the extremely limited coach he is. 

If we’d won last night, it would have been in spite of Southgate, not because of him. 

[KegCity]

Just now, Fordy62 said:

Spain did deserve to win. I fail to see the point. We were Southgate’s England. Playing Southgate’s way - as we have all tournament. He’s extremely limited. An excellent group of players and continuously favourable draws have made you all consider Southgate to be more than the extremely limited coach he is. 

If we’d won last night, it would have been in spite of Southgate, not because of him. 

Would you have dropped Foden for Gordon and played to suit Kane, or dropped Kane and played Watkins to suit Foden/Bellingham?

[Fordy62]

Just now, KegCity said:

Would you have dropped Foden for Gordon and played to suit Kane, or dropped Kane and played Watkins to suit Foden/Bellingham?

I don’t think anything would have suited Kane these last few weeks. 

[cidercity1987]

11 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Because there was a clamour to fit Foden into the side. 

The problem for me was we fit Bellingham in the side.

But neither of that changes the fact that our quick wide forwards such as Gordon barely got off the bench 

Edited July 15 by cidercity1987

[KegCity]

2 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I don’t think anything would have suited Kane these last few weeks. 

I also would've dropped Kane but it's a massive call to make ahead of a final.

 

2 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

The problem for me was we fit Bellingham in the side.

But neither of that changes the fact that our quick wide forwards such as Gordon barely got off the bench 

Bellingham is a better player than Foden and contributed more. Agree it's odd that Gordon couldn't get any minutes.

[frenchred]

25 minutes ago, lenred said:

You remember ‘88? And ‘92? And ‘94. And ‘98. And 2000? I’ll stop there but you get the gist hopefully…….  
He’s ‘delivered’ big time.   Fallen at the final hurdles admittedly but it’s the best run out of a manager we’ve ever had.   A lot of people either have really really short memories or choose not to use them.  

Yep remember them all we won nothing = exactly the same as southgate

[AshtonGreat]

2 minutes ago, KegCity said:

I also would've dropped Kane but it's a massive call to make ahead of a final.

 

Bellingham is a better player than Foden and contributed more. Agree it's odd that Gordon couldn't get any minutes.

Debatable

[KegCity]

3 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Debatable

It's not. Foden had 7 games, 0 goals, 0 assists and aside from hitting the woodwork against the Netherlands did nothing.

Bellingham got us out of trouble against Slovakia and created chances in every game.

[AshtonGreat]

1 minute ago, KegCity said:

It's not. Foden had 7 games, 0 goals, 0 assists and aside from hitting the woodwork against the Netherlands did nothing.

Bellingham got us out of trouble against Slovakia and created chances in every game.

Foden didn't have a great tournament (neither did Bellingham), but as a club player he's easily on a par with Bellingham, if not better

[italian dave]

6 minutes ago, KegCity said:

It's not. Foden had 7 games, 0 goals, 0 assists and aside from hitting the woodwork against the Netherlands did nothing.

Bellingham got us out of trouble against Slovakia and created chances in every game.

Funny one Bellingham this tournament. And last night epitomised it. Anonymous. Frustrating. For much of the game. And yet, that moment of trickery near the end when he made space for himself on the edge of the box and had two Spanish defenders crashing into each other was just magic. And then still time for that sweet pass to Toney…..

[Sir Leigh of Somerset]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Possibly the most annoying thing of any England tournament. People who don’t know John Stones from the Rolling Stones expressing opinions they’ve heard second or third hand. Tossers paying £70 for a ticket to box park in order to buy a pint and throw it in the air while not watching the game. Ross ****ing Kemp being thrown up all over social media by doing a TikTok after we score as opposed to WATCHING THE BLOODY GAME. A montage of celebrities on the BBC in agent purchased England shirts giving facile plaudits off an autocue. Bell and bloody Spurling. Shite “It’s coming home” memes. People making the same Schofield gag continually. Not being able to get in the pub because the same people who jumped on every bandwagon got there first. People putting flags on their cars. People who don’t like football pretending to like football.

Love to the Family.

Ran out of emojis.

I so like this.......

[KegCity]

8 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Funny one Bellingham this tournament. And last night epitomised it. Anonymous. Frustrating. For much of the game. And yet, that moment of trickery near the end when he made space for himself on the edge of the box and had two Spanish defenders crashing into each other was just magic. And then still time for that sweet pass to Toney…..

I don't think Foden or Bellingham had a great tournament, but felt that Bellingham at least offered something. Foden was totally anonymous bar a bright first half against The Netherlands.

Again, we had Bellingham, Kane and Foden all occupying the same space with only Saka offering an outlet ahead of them. One of them needs to be dropped for Watkins/Gordon so we have more options in behind. 

[exAtyeoMax]

 

[TV Tom]

50 minutes ago, The chief said:

Inept??! Ah come on now. We’ve got to 2 finals and a WC semi under him.  I remember not long ago not even qualifying for tournaments.
Yes his style and tactics are dull at times but our tournament record under him is the best out of any England manager . Ever. 

I honestly couldn’t sit through another tournament of ‘Gareth Southgate’ football, apart from the first half against the Dutch we were dire and awful to watch throughout the tournament as is the norm under GS

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Possibly the most annoying thing of any England tournament. People who don’t know John Stones from the Rolling Stones expressing opinions they’ve heard second or third hand. Tossers paying £70 for a ticket to box park in order to buy a pint and throw it in the air while not watching the game. Ross ****ing Kemp being thrown up all over social media by doing a TikTok after we score as opposed to WATCHING THE BLOODY GAME. A montage of celebrities on the BBC in agent purchased England shirts giving facile plaudits off an autocue. Bell and bloody Spurling. Shite “It’s coming home” memes. People making the same Schofield gag continually. Not being able to get in the pub because the same people who jumped on every bandwagon got there first. People putting flags on their cars. People who don’t like football pretending to like football.

Love to the Family.

Squandered talent is where we are at with England, and we will not have this generation of players forever; the other sides, like Spain, will get stronger over the years to come. 

[Andy082005]

39 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I don’t think anything would have suited Kane these last few weeks. 

I think Kane has been carrying an injury 

and if the rumours are true and he has, that’s on Southgate to 

[Phileas Fogg]

Ah that was a shame. No complaints about the result, Spain were the better side but we weren't outclassed at all. 

It's probably time for a change of manager now, Southgate has done a great job over the last 8 years and I feel he's reached his ceiling. 

I think it's probably time for a changing of the guard too over the next couple of years - I think this will be Walker's last tournament as first choice, and there should be genuine questions over Kane and how he fits in; especially as our attacking midfield players aren't the pacey archetype he seems to prefer.

I'd like to think Trent, Braithwaite, Wharton and Palmer will become regular starters under a new manager. Assuming there is a change of manager, hopefully the likes of Ben White can also come back into the fold too.

The 3-4-2-1 type formation seems to suit us - but we need to pick specialists for that formation (ala Bristol City 2014/2015) if we persevere with it. That's why I found it slightly odd he seemed to waste squad places on the likes of Lewis Dunk when Braithwaite would've been far more suitable as a natural left sided CB. Surely it was fairly likely we'd end up playing a back 3 at some stage. 

My dream appointment would be Klopp, but don't think that's very realistic at the moment. I suspect it will be Graham Potter who is an upgrade on Southgate in my view and would likely deliver more entertaining football.

 

[italian dave]

10 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

 

Ha ha!! And if Spurs got to the Cup Final on the back of that, I'd imagine their fans would be happy to be there!

[Numero Uno]

51 minutes ago, Swede said:

The best team won and more importantly, football won. Overall, to get to the final is an achievement in itself and who knows what would have happened if Olmo hadn't headed one off the line.

It strikes me that there is a better way of playing rather than a defence minded set up. If you look at the players on an individual basis I think England had the better players in Pickford, Walker, Stones, Guehi, Shaw, Bellingham, Foden, Kane. I just think we could've been more positive with it and been a little bit more attack minded. We shouldn't have to go one down before opening up and moving the ball quicker. Ultimately, I think this cautious approach cost us.

I think we also need a rethink/ overhaul and that starts with the head coach.

Where Southgate gets huge credit is that if England need to rethink their approach and tactics (and clearly, to get close to Spain and Argentina in the next World Cup, we do based on what we have seen) a starting position as Euro's runners-up is not a bad place for the next manager to go from. It has been pointed out, and it's absolutely true as well, that Southgate inherited an utter shit show. People have short memories, we can all argue the merits or otherwise of keeping him on for this tournament and that's a fair discussion but anyone who fails to recognise the turnaround in our fortunes overall on his watch is just being a bit childish. I appreciate that there are a few "serial winners" who support Bristol City on here but put that to the side for one minute.........................

[redkev]

12 hours ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Exactly and the falling back into a defensive default is coaching.  

And mindset 

[redkev]

20 minutes ago, TV Tom said:

I honestly couldn’t sit through another tournament of ‘Gareth Southgate’ football, apart from the first half against the Dutch we were dire and awful to watch throughout the tournament as is the norm under GS

Spain apart I thought football wise it was probably one of the worst I have ever watched and I’m 60 ,

but thought the look of the stadiums and atmospheres were very good - and generally looked like everybody enjoyed themselves from the fan parks to the bars lots of mixing singing and having a good time .