Come on, England

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

He plays in a back 4 at Liverpool? Attacking full back or wingback?

That aside..

Gordon/Grealish- LW

Foden- 10

Bellingham and Rice- 8 and 6

Wharton or Mainoo- RW

Saka/Palmer?

6 before we even get onto the striker? Or do we cross off Wharton/Mainoo until or unless firdt reserve.

Just on this again though @The Coach

Possibly I've misunderstood the post (wouldn't be the first time) but 6 into 5 assuming a back 4 and Pickford doesn't go unless Bellingham or Palmer as false 9?

That aside..

Gordon/Grealish- LW

Foden- 10

Bellingham and Rice- 8 and 6

Wharton or Mainoo- CM/DM

RW- Saka/Palmer?

Edited July 15 by Mr Popodopolous

[Southend Blue]

They did well.    International scene isn't for everyone but it's tough to get away from things when your national country progresses to another Final.     Southgate has had his detractors but the man has taken the team to successive European Finals and semi-final of a World Cup.    Whichever way you look at it it's a marvellous record and set of achievements.       He's surpassed Robson in terms of second best and only prevents being ahead of Alf Ramsey in not actually winning anything as England manager, while the former has.

Spent the evening of game here in Wales, made the long trip over throughout Sunday.   Situated right now literally a stone's throw from the Millennium Stadium here in Cardiff (the ground is looming large near our hotel windows, the bloody thing is just meters across the road) and thought a break away on the night in a neutral country would be a bit of an escape - somehow there were lots of English fans through the main streets here in Cardiff all wearing three lions shirts (here in Wales's most prominent city) almost oblivious to where they were.     Maybe the Welsh tolerate us, they're not going to force us back over the border or start a riot but there were dozens of English fans here walking about bold as you like.   

We didn't stay around the city centre to see reaction when the game was over.    Must have passed off quietly despite an England loss as we're not far from the centre here and didn't hear much by way of commotion or heddlu police sirens to intercept potential trouble.

The national team had a poor start granted but gradually improved and at times looked like the world beaters many have labelled them as.    Unfortunately those instances were too few and far between and the poor performances simply outweighed the better ones.    With enough consistency, the right players both fit and eager enough and southgate realising what his best team resembles and deploying the right tactics or mindset outright victory may just have been made possible.     You can't deny the Spanish though - the best team won it.  They deserve the victory, you can't really take the accolade away from them.

Can I just add Cardiff is not a very pleasant place to be.    Been all over the city best part of today and yesterday evening and it's - i wouldn't say purgatory, but seriously you have to feel sorry for those that have to live here permanently - it's a mess.      Alright for a short visit though, there ARE some sights of interest if you look hard enough I'll allow them that.    

 

[cidercity1987]

On 14/07/2024 at 21:58, cidercity1987 said:

Football is a momentum game and we lost it in the instant that we took a throw near their corner flag and it went all the way back to Pickford to pump it out for their goal kick 

We barely touched the ball thereafter 

This throw in is still troubling me and I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice it

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/turning-point-england-throw-encapsulated-150049964.html

[Super]

7 hours ago, The Coach said:

You dismissed Mainoo all tournament when I told you he’s miles better than Gallagher  

There is every chance of Trent going to Madrid. They’ve been very keen on him since he came onto the scene.

On a free there is zero chance

[The Coach]

6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Just on this again though @The Coach

Possibly I've misunderstood the post (wouldn't be the first time) but 6 into 5 assuming a back 4 and Pickford doesn't go unless Bellingham or Palmer as false 9?

That aside..

Gordon/Grealish- LW

Foden- 10

Bellingham and Rice- 8 and 6

Wharton or Mainoo- CM/DM

RW- Saka/Palmer?

Sorry mate I am probably being stupid myself.

What you’ve put in your last paragraph is what I agree with team wise. 
 

You could play a 4-2-3-1 with the following. Possibly using Palmer, Grealish, Toney for obvious three below if on better form

                     Pickford

    White  Stones  Guehi   Braithwaite

               Rice      Bellingham                                                        Saka              Foden            Gordon

                      Watkins 

 

Or could go 4-3-3 with the following 

                     Pickford

White     Stones     Guehi      Braithwaite

                         Rice

           Bellingham     Foden

Saka               Palmer           Grealish

 

Hope this makes more sense? Can then utilise Wharton, Mainoo when need to 
 

I know kick off again come September and I really hope we see some new faces included and start building the squad for 2026. Therefore hope to see less game time for some of our older pros and more game time for those who will be there come 2026 (as long as we qualify!)

 

Edited July 16 by The Coach

[mozo]

10 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

                    Pickford

Alexander Arnold Guehi Stones  ?

      Rice Mainoo/Wharton/etc?

 Saka         Foden       Bellingham 

                   Watkins

Palmer? Eze?

Trying to balance out control and attack vs stability.

Who is the best LB. Branthwaite,Shaw, Tripper? Pick one.

I would be inclined to start Watkins sometime soon, as he can play along the front, he can press hard and he is younger.

Maybe not every game but inclined.

 

10 hours ago, The Coach said:

Branthwaite or Mitchell for me at LB.

Gordon or Grealish LW. Foden at 10 then Bellingham & Rice at 8 and 6. Then can utilise Wharton and Mainoo.

Should also see Palmer battle Saka more for RW. Possibly Ben White at RB if he continues on from last season.

Uhhh...guys, Alex Scott!

[The Coach]

21 minutes ago, mozo said:

 

Uhhh...guys, Alex Scott!

I don’t think Scott will ever hit those heights unfortunately. A lot of competition in the midfield with a lot better players. But we will see in the next few years.

[1team]

9 hours ago, The Coach said:

You dismissed Mainoo all tournament when I told you he’s miles better than Gallagher  

There is every chance of Trent going to Madrid. They’ve been very keen on him since he came onto the scene.

I think Mainoo looks more of a £100 million player than Rice, who I thought had a distinctly average tournament.

[TV Tom]

8 hours ago, Southend Blue said:

They did well.    International scene isn't for everyone but it's tough to get away from things when your national country progresses to another Final.     Southgate has had his detractors but the man has taken the team to successive European Finals and semi-final of a World Cup.    Whichever way you look at it it's a marvellous record and set of achievements.       He's surpassed Robson in terms of second best and only prevents being ahead of Alf Ramsey in not actually winning anything as England manager, while the former has.

Spent the evening of game here in Wales, made the long trip over throughout Sunday.   Situated right now literally a stone's throw from the Millennium Stadium here in Cardiff (the ground is looming large near our hotel windows, the bloody thing is just meters across the road) and thought a break away on the night in a neutral country would be a bit of an escape - somehow there were lots of English fans through the main streets here in Cardiff all wearing three lions shirts (here in Wales's most prominent city) almost oblivious to where they were.     Maybe the Welsh tolerate us, they're not going to force us back over the border or start a riot but there were dozens of English fans here walking about bold as you like.   

We didn't stay around the city centre to see reaction when the game was over.    Must have passed off quietly despite an England loss as we're not far from the centre here and didn't hear much by way of commotion or heddlu police sirens to intercept potential trouble.

The national team had a poor start granted but gradually improved and at times looked like the world beaters many have labelled them as.    Unfortunately those instances were too few and far between and the poor performances simply outweighed the better ones.    With enough consistency, the right players both fit and eager enough and southgate realising what his best team resembles and deploying the right tactics or mindset outright victory may just have been made possible.     You can't deny the Spanish though - the best team won it.  They deserve the victory, you can't really take the accolade away from them.

Can I just add Cardiff is not a very pleasant place to be.    Been all over the city best part of today and yesterday evening and it's - i wouldn't say purgatory, but seriously you have to feel sorry for those that have to live here permanently - it's a mess.      Alright for a short visit though, there ARE some sights of interest if you look hard enough I'll allow them that.    

 

Cardiff is a great City, you’ve been blinded by the ugliness of Southend and Ipswich 

[Markthehorn]

3 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

This throw in is still troubling me and I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice it

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/turning-point-england-throw-encapsulated-150049964.html

Tbh I have even seen us do this sort of thing.

More a symptom of the way modern football is rather than a Southgate idea.

Frustrating as that is .

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, 1team said:

I think Mainoo looks more of a £100 million player than Rice, who I thought had a distinctly average tournament.

I thought he had a terrible tournament.

He went back to that DM playing his early games for England, where he offered little other than being a body in our midfield.  I thought he’d improved of late, but he was a big problem for us in this tournament.

[The chief]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I thought he had a terrible tournament.

He went back to that DM playing his early games for England, where he offered little other than being a body in our midfield.  I thought he’d improved of late, but he was a big problem for us in this tournament.

He didn’t play well in any game or have a ‘moment’ like other players managed. Was sloppy in possession , got bullied off the ball at times and we saw none of the driving runs with the ball we’ve seen from him in the past. 
 

could even be a reason why Pickford was going long - his passing was so poor, meaning playing out was dangerous , typified by the passing the ball out for a corner moment vs Denmark.
 

a shadow of the player from the last euros and for arsenal so probably Another Southgate fav - would have been good to see Wharton tried in his place from the bench at least.

His disappointing performances seem to have gone under the radar. 

[TDarwall]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I thought he had a terrible tournament.

He went back to that DM playing his early games for England, where he offered little other than being a body in our midfield.  I thought he’d improved of late, but he was a big problem for us in this tournament.

Couldn't believe the amount of times he lost possession & he was lucky it was only v the Dutch that it cost us.

Big difference with Spain was their midfield enforcers were also technically excellent whereas Rice looked clumsy on the ball & an accident waiting to happen.

For transparency i did have a free bet on him to score in the final which would have got me £100 so I am still annoyed about the late headed chance!

For me the 2 big "winners" of the tournament were Guehi & Palmer. Kobee generally did well too but the final seemed to pass him by (looking how far he has come so fast, that's no disgrace). Hadn't seen much of Palmer before & did wonder if he was just a consummate spot kick taker, but he looks the real deal.

[The Coach]

2 hours ago, 1team said:

I think Mainoo looks more of a £100 million player than Rice, who I thought had a distinctly average tournament.

 

24 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I thought he had a terrible tournament.

He went back to that DM playing his early games for England, where he offered little other than being a body in our midfield.  I thought he’d improved of late, but he was a big problem for us in this tournament.

I agree with Dave. The country has banged the drum about Kane but Rice was just as bad. 
 

Absolute different player to how he played at Arsenal last season. 
 

Back to Mainoo. It’s a good point. If Mainoo reaches the levels I believe he can reach. He pushes Rice out of England’s starting XI.

[Wanderingred]

Bristol City and England, the forever bridesmaids. I don’t think we’ll ever have anything to celebrate.

[AshtonGreat]

29 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

Bristol City and England, the forever bridesmaids. I don’t think we’ll ever have anything to celebrate.

Not sure you can compare Bristol City to a bridesmaid. More like the distant cousin who didn't get invited to the wedding

[BCFCGav]

33 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

Bristol City and England, the forever bridesmaids. I don’t think we’ll ever have anything to celebrate.

Our day has to come, just by law of averages... right?

One season where it all clicks. Finish 5th or 6th then a bit of luck in the play-offs. What I wouldn't give. 

[Super]

He's gone.

[Fordy62]

Thanks for your efforts Gareth, but there’ll be no tears shed here. 

[Northern Red]

It was time.

[The Coach]

Evidently wanted it sorted before his holiday. Which I can understand.

Thanks Gareth. But it was time.

[JBFC II]

One of the most successful England managers ever, 2nd only to Sir Alf in my book. When managers have left in the past it has been in the face of turmoil, questions and concerns, Gareth leaves us with genuine hope that a major trophy could be on its way.

It hasn't always been pretty, and often rather frustrating, but he's united the country behind the national team in a way we've seen very rarely over the past 60 years. Hopefully whoever takes the role can do likewise, and go even further

[The chief]

3 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

One of the most successful England managers ever, 2nd only to Sir Alf in my book. When managers have left in the past it has been in the face of turmoil, questions and concerns, Gareth leaves us with genuine hope that a major trophy could be on its way.

It hasn't always been pretty, and often rather frustrating, but he's united the country behind the national team in a way we've seen very rarely over the past 60 years. Hopefully whoever takes the role can do likewise, and go even further

Nicely put. Leaves with his head held high and having achieved so much. We are a genuine tournament team now and he leaves at a good time with foundations set. 
Personally speaking, that night in Dortmund last Weds probably won’t be beaten ever, so will always be grateful for that one. 

[Maltshoveller]

Don't get the Manoo love in

Did ok no more than that 

[1team]

25 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

Don't get the Manoo love in

Did ok no more than that 

Over 95% pass success rate for a 19 year old is outstanding, his tackling was outstanding too. At times it felt to me like he was the one driving the team on. Overshadowed Bellingham for me and compared to Rice he looked like Iniesta.

[Wanderingred]

 

1 hour ago, The chief said:

Nicely put. Leaves with his head held high and having achieved so much. We are a genuine tournament team now and he leaves at a good time with foundations set. 
Personally speaking, that night in Dortmund last Weds probably won’t be beaten ever, so will always be grateful for that one. 

We’ll always have Palmers goal as well. I honestly admit, I had a few tears in my eyes because at that moment, I thought we were bringing it home.

It was very interesting to observe culture differences in a huge Shanghai sports bar. 90% of the England fans were expats, proper football lads creating an amazing atmosphere. The Spanish “fans” were almost all local Chinese gloryhunters who had jumped on the bandwagon of a very good Spain team and had probably purchased their Spain shirt online a few days before. It was a 50-50 split in terms of numbers but the difference was huge. They were there taking photos, didn’t know any of the Spanish songs/chants and simply looked at us in amazement as we absolutely lost it at Palmer’s goal.

They don’t know the meaning of loyalty to sports teams here… if they don’t win, they aren’t worth following. (Case in point, Guangzhou Evergrande who from champions league winners to the second tier,went from averaging 40k to just a few hundred). It made it all the more frustrating to watch people like that celebrate at our expense, but I guess there’s no right or wrong way to enjoy sport. Just cultural differences.

Dunno why I wrote all that, I just want to share my feelings somewhere. I’m still hurting and just desperate for some real success after 35 painful years of following football. Would it be easier if I just did things the Chinese way and bought a Man City shirt ?

Edited July 16 by Wanderingred

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 hours ago, The Coach said:

Sorry mate I am probably being stupid myself.

What you’ve put in your last paragraph is what I agree with team wise. 
 

You could play a 4-2-3-1 with the following. Possibly using Palmer, Grealish, Toney for obvious three below if on better form

                     Pickford

    White  Stones  Guehi   Braithwaite

               Rice      Bellingham                                                        Saka              Foden            Gordon

                      Watkins 

 

Or could go 4-3-3 with the following 

                     Pickford

White     Stones     Guehi      Braithwaite

                         Rice

           Bellingham     Foden

Saka               Palmer           Grealish

 

Hope this makes more sense? Can then utilise Wharton, Mainoo when need to 
 

I know kick off again come September and I really hope we see some new faces included and start building the squad for 2026. Therefore hope to see less game time for some of our older pros and more game time for those who will be there come 2026 (as long as we qualify!)

 

Yeah I get it now. Nice to have options such as Wharton, Mainoo, Eze etc in-game or game to game, with tweaks.

Grealish on the left also means that phases in which he can hold his position, phrases in which he can drift in to either help us get on top in or wrestle back to parity in midfield.

Possibly Palmer and Grealish can swap over a bit in phases too- could be exciting to watch.

6 hours ago, mozo said:

 

Uhhh...guys, Alex Scott!

5 hours ago, The Coach said:

I don’t think Scott will ever hit those heights unfortunately. A lot of competition in the midfield with a lot better players. But we will see in the next few years.

Still time. Long career, age is on his side. He needs a nice injury free season for one to see where it can take him- that has to be a starting point...

He offers something a bit unique when in form and fit- the ability to carry, the ability to win fouls in both halves and get able to slot back in as a more orthodox midfielder into a 3/5 out of possession 

[Maltshoveller]

1 hour ago, 1team said:

Over 95% pass success rate for a 19 year old is outstanding, his tackling was outstanding too. At times it felt to me like he was the one driving the team on. Overshadowed Bellingham for me and compared to Rice he looked like Iniesta.

95% pass rate is great But he did not make one clear chance in the whole tournament 

[SecretSam]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I thought he had a terrible tournament.

He went back to that DM playing his early games for England, where he offered little other than being a body in our midfield.  I thought he’d improved of late, but he was a big problem for us in this tournament.

Dave - was he suffering from not having a true CDM next to him? He was trying to be two things at the same time.

If only we had a modern Owen Hargreaves (pre-ManUre)

Yay! 100 pages!

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Dave - was he suffering from not having a true CDM next to him? He was trying to be two things at the same time.

If only we had a modern Owen Hargreaves (pre-ManUre)

Yay! 100 pages!

Possibly, but in GS’s team…he is the CDM!

[SecretSam]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Possibly, but in GS’s team…he is the CDM!

Square pegs...

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, SecretSam said:

Square pegs...

That’s Arteta’s fault if he’s moved him…he was a CDM until this season for club and country, pretty much.

[The Bard]

12 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

This throw in is still troubling me and I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice it

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/turning-point-england-throw-encapsulated-150049964.html

I went ballistic when that happened.  Nothing to do with the manager.  That's simply a terrible decision by an elite player.  We'd scored from that situation v Slovakia.  FFS

[Mr Popodopolous]

Problems of the past.

There was the Gerrard and Lampard issue and the inherent lack of balance..

1) Gerrard or Lampard

Plus Scholes

Plus Hargreaves

Could have the best balance but then a top player is having to risk playing 2nd fiddle .

2) Gerrard and Lampard

Plus Scholes

Attacking and strong passing but is to the detriment of the defensive side in the biggest games.

Scholes was no great tackler! Carrick is a better DM and Hargeaves pre Man United better still.

3) Gerrard and Lampard

Plus Carrick

Again strong passing and yes attacking potential but is Carrick the best choice for DM or is that Hargreaves (pre Man United).

You are also wasting an outstanding Scholes but again there is an issue with balance in the biggest games with Point 2.

4) Gerrard or Lampard

Plus Scholes

Plus Hargreaves

You have goals, attack, defence and passing but again the Gerrard and Lampard issue, you also have a fine passer etc in Carrick benched. Having said that Carrick did get the run around v Barcelona.

5) Gerrard or Lampard

Plus Scholes

Plus Carrick

Impressive on one level, otoh the protection in the biggest games you worry a bit and brave to leave one of the first 2 out.

Edited July 16 by Mr Popodopolous

[Cowshed]

26 minutes ago, The Bard said:

I went ballistic when that happened.  Nothing to do with the manager.  That's simply a terrible decision by an elite player.  We'd scored from that situation v Slovakia.  FFS

With seven players around the six yard box.

Versus Spain it was? Well it was two.

FFS who is coaching the set plays. 

[luke_bristol]

1 hour ago, The Bard said:

I went ballistic when that happened.  Nothing to do with the manager.  That's simply a terrible decision by an elite player.  We'd scored from that situation v Slovakia.  FFS

Named in the UEFA team of the tournament this evening! Interesting choice…

[sticks 1969]

Just got back from Germany 

the one thing that amazed the most was the sheer amount of people who will pay 1k for a ticket and think nothing of it 

secondly how many go and never watch any of the game or very little,honestly the guy next to me spent the entire game chatting and drinking with friends or arguing with other fans who complained about the utter nonsense coming out his mouth 

to cancelled flights going in and out and we never looked like winners 

roll on start of the season 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Northcroft made some interesting points..he identified 6 regular failings and 3 in particular stood out..

2. Safety First

3. Maybe the Players are at fault too

4. Always the midfield

In particular on Point 4..

"England's biggest issue in tournaments, bar home, is getting outplayed in midfield by the better sides. It's partly down to the old addiction to 4-4-2 and its variants- leaving England outnumbered in the middle. But that wasn't the story in Berlin. With England and Spain both playing 4-2-3-1 the difference was in the profile of midfielders. The Spanish had a controller, Rodri and alongside him a player with wonderful possession skills, Fabian Ruiz.

"The English game just does not seem to develop these types. Declan Rice is a magnificent player but maybe his qualities (strength, power, courage) are over-indexed in English football culture. This may be why Mikel Arteta recast him as a box-to-box No 8 and drafted in Jorginho to control the game behind him.

However in Adam Wharton, England have a young player with the potential to develop into a world-class foreign-style conductor. He should have had some minutes at these Euros and has to be nurtured well".

I think it is a bit reductive and a tad harsh on Rice..controllers, we don't develop them so readily. The archetypal tempo via passing, not so much..could Scott be another too.

Edited July 16 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

What about dropping one of Foden or Bellingham deeper..control? Stability.

Another possible..

               Pickford

TAA Stones Guehi Mitchell

          Rice Wharton

Saka   Foden  Bellingham

              Watkins

Out of possession, Foden can drop into the 3, Bellingham central and at times even Watkins pull left to make sure we aren't caught out there.

Bellingham can pop up as a false 9 now and then. Alternatively Palmer in for one of Foden and Bellingham, they can drop in now and then, perhaps Palmer can pull left, central or even pop up as a false 9 every now and then.

[North London Red]

4 hours ago, sticks 1969 said:

Just got back from Germany 

the one thing that amazed the most was the sheer amount of people who will pay 1k for a ticket and think nothing of it 

secondly how many go and never watch any of the game or very little,honestly the guy next to me spent the entire game chatting and drinking with friends or arguing with other fans who complained about the utter nonsense coming out his mouth 

to cancelled flights going in and out and we never looked like winners 

roll on start of the season 

I heard plenty of travel horror stories from people coming back on Monday. I think two flights to Bristol were cancelled; BA cancelled the evening flight from Munich; flights from Amsterdam were cancelled; a Berlin to Manchester flight had to return to Brandenburg shortly after take off due to a smell of burning in the cabin; the Berlin to Prague train on Monday morning got significantly delayed; and my brother missed his ferry from Dunkirk due to road traffic accidents in Belgium. 
My own journey (Berlin to Munich train, Munich to Zurich train, late evening flight back from Zurich to London) was delayed and tiring, but in light of the above I’m glad it all just about worked in the end (got home 1.15am). 

[MarcusX]

On 15/07/2024 at 19:47, redkev said:

I totally agree with the shaw gamble , and I sort of agre about not playing arguably europes no1 striker but it was really tough watching Kane he was struggling badly for the whole tournament 

I can't disagree.

I'm a big Southgate fan, but I think I've said a few times I can't defend the performances this summer. I agree with people who say we progressed through individual moments of brilliance as opposed to a clear tactical plan.

I think some / a lot is on the players as much as Southgate, but it's hard to know what they were told to do. I've also always said when i've played in some difficult circumstances that you have to follow the managers plan (even if you dont agree with it) because if you do and it goes wrong, it won't be you who catches the flack. If you deviate from the plan and try to do your own thing, it's on you.

My guess from what I've watched is that Kane wasn't 100% fit, and the really physical game against Serbia probably hampered him further. I thought he did a lot of good physical work in that game, holding the ball up and winning flicks - the same things he couldn't do later in the competition.

Southgate's not been perfect, but the good far outweighs the bad for me and again some of that is probably a little bit "rose-tinted" because I've been at a lot of the big games, and so those memories will outweight the 85 minutes of turgid football that must have been mind-numbing to watch on TV