Female Managers

[Harry]

I’m currently sat in a lovely house in the village of Axams in the Austrian Alps and have been watching the local sports tv station the last couple of nights. 
They’ve had a very comprehensive roundup of the 1st round of the German cup and it was rather interesting to see that FC Ingolstadt (in their match vs Kaiserslautern) had a female manager by the name of Sabrina Wittman. 
 

She took on the managerial role at the start of this season for the 3rd division club. 
 

I know that there was nearly a female manager at FGR last year (a very brief caretaker spell in the end) and I’m not aware of any other female managers in the English game. 

It struck me as maybe this is a first in professional male football, so didn’t know if either I’d missed this news earlier in the summer or if it just hasn’t been reported at all in the U.K.? 
 

Are there any other female managers in pro male football anywhere else in the world, does anyone know. Or is this a first and something to keep a keen eye upon? 

Edited August 22 by Harry

[Silvio Dante]

25 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’m currently sat in a lovely house in the village of Axams in the Austrian Alps and have been watching the local sports tv station the last couple of nights. 
They’ve had a very comprehensive roundup of the 1st round of the German cup and it was rather interesting to see that FC Ingolstadt (in their match vs Kaiserslautern) had a female manager by the name of Sabrina Wittman. 
 

She took on the managerial role at the start of this season for the 3rd division club. 
 

I know that there was nearly a female manager at FGR last year (a very brief caretaker spell in the end) and I’m not aware of any other female managers in the English game. 

It struck me as maybe this is a first in professional male football, so didn’t know if either I’d missed this news earlier in the summer or if it just hasn’t been reported at all in the U.K.? 
 

Are there any other female managers in pro male football anywhere else in the world, does anyone know. Or is this a first and something to keep a keen eye upon? 

@Davefevs…  Photo for you.

 

 

On a more serious basis, not as far as I know. But considering there is a trend (a la Liam) to appoint managers/coaches who haven’t played pro football, there is no reason why women should not also be appointed. If we’re saying experience of the game at x level isn’t key, then the sex shouldn’t matter and I expect an appointment in the near future.

[Harry]

29 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

@Davefevs…  Photo for you.

 

 

On a more serious basis, not as far as I know. But considering there is a trend (a la Liam) to appoint managers/coaches who haven’t played pro football, there is no reason why women should not also be appointed. If we’re saying experience of the game at x level isn’t key, then the sex shouldn’t matter and I expect an appointment in the near future.

No way is she called Stan! 

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

8 hours ago, Harry said:

No way is she called Stan! 

Stan Hey Hey Hey!

[cidered abroad]

Female football managers at professional level will be quite normal in a few years.

In my lifetime so many industries have considered and used so many women that it is not even thought about. So just a few since 1945.

Train and Bus drivers. Family doctors. Retail store managers. Airline pilots, Prime Ministers and maybe soon US presidents?

[Port Said Red]

I have great memories of Axams by the way @Harry, and the skiing village of Gotzens just along the road. 

I am sure, you will be heading into Innsbruck on occasions as well, I wonder if the Drie Musketerren pub is still there by the river?

But yes, I believe that female Managers are on their way, and players are generally ok with it which is the biggest worry for a club I should think.

Edited August 23 by Port Said Red

[Silvio Dante]

To widen the debate, there are a few factors here (and I think it will happen):

- What there can’t be is tarring everyone with the same brush, which football is notorious for, both good and bad. Arsene Wenger doing well? We should appoint a foreign coach. Mido a bit of a waster? We should avoid Egyptian players. The first woman coach off the tracks here will have a lot of attention, and her success or failure shouldn’t necessarily be the yardstick as to whether female coaches can do the job. But I fear it will be. 
 

- On the other side of the coin, then I think that female coaches will need to understand there are tempered expectations. Emma Hayes is a great example here - she was linked with jobs at L1 and below and there was an indication that she should be looking higher. Issue there is that Chelsea women, for all their success, are a far smaller operation commercially and expectation wise than the man’s game, and moving to a top two level club would be a leap (that’s not saying the skill level is less, more the overall job is different). For the elite female coaches, there may have to be give on both sides and it’s whether a Hayes wants to go into a L1 level

- I think the more likely route is the one @Harry highlighted at Forest Green, where a female coach is ingrained on the male side of the club and naturally progresses upwards into a senior position at that club or elsewhere - the McKenna/Manning etc route. 
 

It’ll happen but there are a few things in play.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

I don't see why not, I think it might take longer than you think though.

It's probably going to be down to a preference for most women to manage in the women's game.

There have been quite a few already around Europe in German, Italy IIRC.  We had Hannah Dingley for a while at Forest Green.  It's just a matter of time, there are a few female coaches making their way in the men's game, they will ultimately result in a head coach.  We might see a cross over experiment that results in a head coach from the women's game switching.  Not sure that's as likely as some think.

[Son of Fred]

1 hour ago, cidered abroad said:

Female football managers at professional level will be quite normal in a few years.

In my lifetime so many industries have considered and used so many women that it is not even thought about. So just a few since 1945.

Train and Bus drivers. Family doctors. Retail store managers. Airline pilots, Prime Ministers and maybe soon US presidents?

Suprising how low the numbers still are in honesty - think it's only about 5% pilots,,and wouldn't think it's any more than 10% train drivers-

I suppose there has to be an element of actually really wanting a particular career- work/family life balance.

[spudski]

This is bound to upset a few, but there are studies ( if you care to look ) regarding male and female coaches, managing the opposite sex.

As men and woman's brains are wired completely different.

As an example...woman can have five thoughts happening at exactly the same time...as a male, that gives me a headache even comprehending that :laugh:

Emotions are different, thought processes different, expectations different, reactions different, hormones have an affect etc, etc. 

Not saying yes, or no to this, but it's worth considering.

[GrahamC]

To answer the exam question Clermont Foot in France had I believe the first in senior football in Helena Costa and then followed it up by subsequently appointing Caroline Diacre as her replacement as the second.

Costa was (& maybe still is) involved in heading up recruitment at Watford.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

7 minutes ago, spudski said:

This is bound to upset a few, but there are studies ( if you care to look ) regarding male and female coaches, managing the opposite sex.

As men and woman's brains are wired completely different.

As an example...woman can have five thoughts happening at exactly the same time...as a male, that gives me a headache even comprehending that

Emotions are different, thought processes different, expectations different, reactions different, hormones have an affect etc, etc. 

Not saying yes, or no to this, but it's worth considering.

Those studies change over time and by culture.  Not sure how if a women has come up through the men's game how that makes all that much different.  

[Red-Robbo]

Been a smattering in Europe. Viterbese in Serie B had a female manager at one time, as this article explains.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/jul/07/football-women-managed-mens-teams-europe-helena-costa-corinne-diacre-carolina-morace

AC Perugia, my Italian club, once actually tried to sign a female player as well. They were in Serie A at the time too. This was in the years the owner managed to destroy the club by signing the likes of Colonel Gadhafi's son and Jay Boothroyd  . The owner eventually fled to the Dominican Republic, before doing time for fraud in Italy. 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Those studies change over time and by culture.  Not sure how if a women has come up through the men's game how that makes all that much different.  

How the brain functions and processes situations are different. 

The studies talk about extra gains by small percentages have an advantage.

You can't change how a woman processes her thoughts to like a man. That's what the studies have found. 

[Rudolf Hucker]

12 hours ago, Harry said:

Are there any other female managers in pro male football anywhere else in the world, does anyone know. Or is this a first and something to keep a keen eye upon? 

Holloway was a real old woman. 

[steveybadger]

2 minutes ago, spudski said:

How the brain functions and processes situations are different. 

The studies talk about extra gains by small percentages have an advantage.

You can't change how a woman processes her thoughts to like a man. That's what the studies have found. 

Not all women and not all men

[38MC]

18 minutes ago, spudski said:

This is bound to upset a few, but there are studies ( if you care to look ) regarding male and female coaches, managing the opposite sex.

As men and woman's brains are wired completely different.

As an example...woman can have five thoughts happening at exactly the same time...as a male, that gives me a headache even comprehending that

Emotions are different, thought processes different, expectations different, reactions different, hormones have an affect etc, etc. 

Not saying yes, or no to this, but it's worth considering.

I don't think it's worth considering; at all. If females managing males can work in the workplace, if females and males can work together in complex, monogamous relationships, if they can work together in the arts and creative industries, it's for the birds that sport is a bridge too far. 

[Bar BS3]

I think as women's experience grows around the sport (they are still relatively new to it) it will only be a matter of time before the best options are applying for jobs in men's football.

If they are then deemed the best person for the job, then hopefully they will get the opportunities & their sex won't have any bearing on the decision of a clubs appointment - but I think it may well be while before we see them at Premier league or even Championship level, where the stakes are so high.

However, if given a chance in the lower leagues & able to prove themselves (individually) then any manager (either sex) will be picked up by a higher level club, if they are proving that they have something about them.

How young footballers & their banter might feel about it would be a completely different question & it may hamper their progress.

Not from a talent or even a sexist point of view - but a dressing room is a major part of the success of any squad & I know in my day that a woman being in the dressing room would not have been welcomed (from a banter perspective) it sounds shameful even writing it - but boys will be boys - men & women are very different (even if their capabilities aren't) & whether it would actually work would be fascinating to see.

No doubt someone will try it before too long - but they will have to be better than the men to get a fair crack of the whip, imo. Just like any minority group will tell you - they need to be better, work harder & achieve more, just to be regarded "on par" with their male peers.

 

[Bar BS3]

12 minutes ago, spudski said:

How the brain functions and processes situations are different. 

The studies talk about extra gains by small percentages have an advantage.

You can't change how a woman processes her thoughts to like a man. That's what the studies have found. 

This is true - but what's to say that their thought processes would give them a marginal gain over their male counterparts.?

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Bar BS3 said:

This is true - but what's to say that their thought processes would give them a marginal gain over their male counterparts.?

This is true...as I said in my initial post, I'm neither for or against.

I've coached both females and males in a hard physical, emotional sport ( ski racing ). Dealing with each different sex in how they deal with pressure, pain, physicality and emotions are very different. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

The hills are alive, with the sound of ..... @Harry keeping an eye out for another Fally, whilst he's on his summer hols. Keep on scouting ....

[Distortia]

Corinne Diacre managed to get Diedhiou scoring 23 goals in 50 games when managing him at Clermont Foot. Maybe we missed a trick back in 2017 

"Her recruitment has been savvy. Her signing of Famara Diédhiou, who had been going nowhere at Sochaux, proved a masterstroke. The striker was voted Ligue 2 player of the season after finishing as top scorer with 21 goals. “I admire her courage and her commitment to her work and I’m very thankful to her,” said Diédhiou of Diacre shortly after his performances earned him a first cap for Senegal. “She is a fighter and never gives up and she has helped me get the best out of myself.”

[TDarwall]

2 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

The hills are alive, with the sound of ..... @Harry keeping an eye out for another Fally, whilst he's on his summer hols. Keep on scouting ....

When Harry met Fally!

I made Meg Ryan type noises after his Millwall goal!

[ExiledAjax]

The two best coaches I ever had were women. Different sport, but it was a combat sport. They were brilliant and better than any male coach I had at motivating, explaining, demonstrating, and competing. I competed at a national level.

No problem with it at all and obviously it will happen.

[Coxy27]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

To answer the exam question Clermont Foot in France had I believe the first in senior football in Helena Costa and then followed it up by subsequently appointing Caroline Diacre as her replacement as the second.

Costa was (& maybe still is) involved in heading up recruitment at Watford.

Costa left Watford in '23 shortly after the same guy that brought her there also left. She was there for about a year, but not entirely sure they had many successes in the transfer market in that time (Jan and Summer 23 windows)

Corinne Diacre was the other Clemont manager's name, rather than Caroline. She did a reasonable job by most accounts, last three full seasons.

[Son of Fred]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

men and woman's brains are wired completely different

Wouldn't argue with that

[city1983]

On 23/08/2024 at 08:19, cidered abroad said:

Female football managers at professional level will be quite normal in a few years.

In my lifetime so many industries have considered and used so many women that it is not even thought about. So just a few since 1945.

Train and Bus drivers. Family doctors. Retail store managers. Airline pilots, Prime Ministers and maybe soon US presidents?

I get that they can do the bulk of the work but who parks the busses and planes for them?

[Cowshed]

On 23/08/2024 at 08:19, cidered abroad said:

Female football managers at professional level will be quite normal in a few years.

 

If this would to occur it would not be normal in male football. There are not many females with the required coaching badges to coach at the professional level. The numbers of females with top level coaching badges will remain miniscule as the numbers each season being trained are capped for both sexes. The numbers of females with the merit to coach in male professional football will remain tiny and vastly outnumbered v males.  

[The Bard]

On 22/08/2024 at 21:56, Harry said:

I’m currently sat in a lovely house in the village of Axams in the Austrian Alps and have been watching the local sports tv station the last couple of nights. 
They’ve had a very comprehensive roundup of the 1st round of the German cup and it was rather interesting to see that FC Ingolstadt (in their match vs Kaiserslautern) had a female manager by the name of Sabrina Wittman. 
 

She took on the managerial role at the start of this season for the 3rd division club. 
 

I know that there was nearly a female manager at FGR last year (a very brief caretaker spell in the end) and I’m not aware of any other female managers in the English game. 

It struck me as maybe this is a first in professional male football, so didn’t know if either I’d missed this news earlier in the summer or if it just hasn’t been reported at all in the U.K.? 
 

Are there any other female managers in pro male football anywhere else in the world, does anyone know. Or is this a first and something to keep a keen eye upon? 

It's inevitable that as female participation in the sport grows that more women take up coaching and eventually this will mean female managers and coaches in the professional men's game.  If you think about the intake at professional level for all women's football, I bet the numbers are far greater than they were even 10 years ago.  They are far more likely to get their badges and are in positions closer to professional clubs (City's men's and women's teams train in the same place) to get opportunities.  It is just about opportunity.  A club like City feels like it could be one of the first for this reason.

[bcfcredandwhite]

On 23/08/2024 at 10:40, spudski said:

This is bound to upset a few, but there are studies ( if you care to look ) regarding male and female coaches, managing the opposite sex.

As men and woman's brains are wired completely different.

As an example...woman can have five thoughts happening at exactly the same time...as a male, that gives me a headache even comprehending that

Emotions are different, thought processes different, expectations different, reactions different, hormones have an affect etc, etc. 

Not saying yes, or no to this, but it's worth considering.

I’ve heard this about a woman’s ability to ‘multitask’ which men apparently find very difficult. 
However, I’d dispute that. For example; I’m able to effortlessly watch football, drink beer, eat, swear at the screen and pass wind all at the same time!!

On a serious note; if they are good enough then it doesn’t matter what sex they are. We have female referees so why not managers. 
Previously to the current manager, the Lionesses were managed by men. It will probably happen and I have no issue with it. 
I do agree that the ‘trailblazers’ will be scrutinised closely - we’ve seen that with the referees. They will need to be of strong character. 

Edited August 25 by bcfcredandwhite
Add footnote.

[Red-Robbo]

21 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I’ve heard this about a woman’s ability to ‘multitask’ which men apparently find very difficult. 
However, I’d dispute that. For example; I’m able to effortlessly watch football, drink beer, eat, swear at the screen and pass wind all at the same time!!

On a serious note; if they are good enough then it doesn’t matter what sex they are. We have female referees so why not managers. 
Previously to the current manager, the Lionesses were managed by men. It will probably happen and I have no issue with it. 
I do agree that the ‘trailblazers’ will be scrutinised closely - we’ve seen that with the referees. They will need to be of strong character. 

They will be. And I have to say the female ref we had last season was much better than the male clowns yesterday and last weekend.  

[bcfcredandwhite]

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

They will be. And I have to say the female ref we had last season was much better than the male clowns yesterday and last weekend.  

I agree about the female ref - but many Huddersfield fans would probably hold a different opinion!!!
They will encounter much criticism and even fury at some of their decisions but that’s part and parcel of being a referee - they ALL get slated, and it won’t be simply because they are women. Refereeing is a thankless task and I’m just grateful there are people prepared to do the job. 
Some of the insulting chants may need to be modified to fit the gender though…!!!

[Cowshed]

3 hours ago, The Bard said:

It's inevitable that as female participation in the sport grows that more women take up coaching and eventually this will mean female managers and coaches in the professional men's game.  If you think about the intake at professional level for all women's football, I bet the numbers are far greater than they were even 10 years ago.  They are far more likely to get their badges and are in positions closer to professional clubs (City's men's and women's teams train in the same place) to get opportunities.  It is just about opportunity.  A club like City feels like it could be one of the first for this reason.

Its not inevitable. The numbers do not stack up. The numbers of females with qualifications to be pro coaches in England is in the tens. Put those tens with no experience and no merit into male football they are miniscule in number. The numbers of female coaches with B licences is also minuscule, and again females are absent in the male game at levels requiring that coaching qualification. 

Opportunity is limited for men coaching and managing as a profession in men's football is limited, very limited. Opportunity for females in men's football? Limited further. 

Edited August 25 by Cowshed

[Maltshoveller]

45 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Its not inevitable. The numbers do not stack up. The numbers of females with qualifications to be pro coaches in England is in the tens. Put those tens with no experience and no merit into male football they are miniscule in number. The numbers of female coaches with B licences is also minuscule, and again females are absent in the male game at levels requiring that coaching qualification. 

Opportunity is limited for men coaching and managing as a profession in men's football is limited, very limited. Opportunity for females in men's football? Limited further. 

Good post

But remember It is not just about qualification and experience these days

There are boxes that need ticking!!!!

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Maltshoveller said:

Good post

But remember It is not just about qualification and experience these days

There are boxes that need ticking!!!!

Football is about merit, experience and qualification. 

The game doesn't suddenly take Managers from Southern League Manor Farm and put them in charge of pro teams. The same applies to women, the game won't be taking Managers from women's football and putting them into men's pro football. It is a different game and the skill sets and experience differ. 

[redkev]

On 23/08/2024 at 10:54, Rudolf Hucker said:

Holloway was a real old woman. 

Was = still is 

[Steve Watts]

On 23/08/2024 at 10:46, GrahamC said:

To answer the exam question Clermont Foot in France had I believe the first in senior football in Helena Costa and then followed it up by subsequently appointing Caroline Diacre as her replacement as the second.

Costa was (& maybe still is) involved in heading up recruitment at Watford.

She was indeed the first female appointed, but quit before managing the game because the Sporting Director was signing players without her consent and refusing to reply to any of her messages!

On 25/08/2024 at 13:59, bcfcredandwhite said:

I agree about the female ref - but many Huddersfield fans would probably hold a different opinion!!!
They will encounter much criticism and even fury at some of their decisions but that’s part and parcel of being a referee - they ALL get slated, and it won’t be simply because they are women. Refereeing is a thankless task and I’m just grateful there are people prepared to do the job. 
Some of the insulting chants may need to be modified to fit the gender though…!!!

"You're too fit to referee"....? (though the chances of Fernanda Colombo refereeing over here is remote, sadly!)

Edited August 28 by Steve Watts

[Sir Colby-Tit]

Steve Bruce looks like my Nan, and he done alright.

[Port Said Red]

On 25/08/2024 at 13:59, bcfcredandwhite said:

I agree about the female ref - but many Huddersfield fans would probably hold a different opinion!!!
They will encounter much criticism and even fury at some of their decisions but that’s part and parcel of being a referee - they ALL get slated, and it won’t be simply because they are women. Refereeing is a thankless task and I’m just grateful there are people prepared to do the job. 
Some of the insulting chants may need to be modified to fit the gender though…!!!

I remember many years ago reading an article about a one armed pitcher playing in the Major League. 

They described his technique when fielding how he had to pitch, put his catching gloves on retrieve the ball and then take it off again to throw.

The interesting bit was when they asked him about criticism from the stands. 

He said the best letter he had ever received came from a fan who absolutely castigated him, his pitching, his fielding his batting, everything. The reason it was the best in his view was that it never once referred to him only having one arm.