Williams ban incoming

[Rocking Red Cyril]

Surely that aggressive edge to Williams play adds to the make up of the team output. City have often been accused of being a bit soft and I am sure we have witnessed games over the years were we have been bullied by bigger more physical sides. Yes it would  appear from the clip shown on another thread on here that Jo did seem to be  a bit overly aggressive after the Coventry goal. I feel he adds a lot to the team. 

I am not a stats man but it would be interesting to compare Williams sendings off against Gerry Gows for the club. Gerry was loved for his no nonsense attitude on the pitch at the club.

Yes different eras of football, so are the stats comparable? I don't now. But is Williams not being criticised for something Gow was admired for?

Sits with hard hat on awaiting replies.

[SydneyCity]

Joe is going to let his temper get the better of him at times, Naismith is going to get caught out of position occasionally, Twine will play a worldie then be completely ineffective… the list goes on. If these players didn’t have these contradictions they’d be nowhere near us, or the Championship.

Joe is an aggressive player. We need that. I’ve never been his biggest fan, but ask him to ease off a bit, or overthink where the line is, and we lose a lot of what he brings to the team.

[CliftonCliff]

7 hours ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Surely that aggressive edge to Williams play adds to the make up of the team output. City have often been accused of being a bit soft and I am sure we have witnessed games over the years were we have been bullied by bigger more physical sides. Yes it would  appear from the clip shown on another thread on here that Jo did seem to be  a bit overly aggressive after the Coventry goal. I feel he adds a lot to the team. 

I am not a stats man but it would be interesting to compare Williams sendings off against Gerry Gows for the club. Gerry was loved for his no nonsense attitude on the pitch at the club.

Yes different eras of football, so are the stats comparable? I don't now. But is Williams not being criticised for something Gow was admired for?

Sits with hard hat on awaiting replies.

You don’t need a tin hat as far as I’m concerned: I’m with you on this. The rest of our midfield at the moment is made up of Knight, Bird and Twine. All decent players who I like, but they are all, to varying degrees, passers, runners, grafters. You wouldn’t describe any of them as ball-winners. For balance, you must have some aggression in there. It’s a dirty job, but somebody’s got to, etc, etc. There’s a downside, as we’ve seen, and it can cost you sometimes, but take Joe (or his like) out of there, and it won’t be long before you start to see the re-emergence of past complaints about us being a soft touch.

There’s no pleasing some people…

Edited August 26 by CliftonCliff
Omission

[Davefevs]

40 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

You don’t need a tin hat as far as I’m concerned: I’m with you on this. The rest of our midfield at the moment is made up of Knight, Bird and Twine. All decent players who I like, but they are all, to varying degrees, passers, runners, grafters. You wouldn’t describe any of them as ball-winners. For balance, you must have some aggression in there. It’s a dirty job, but somebody’s got to, etc, etc. There’s a downside, as we’ve seen, and it can cost you sometimes, but take Joe (or his like) out of there, and it won’t be long before you start to see the re-emergence of past complaints about us being a soft touch.

There’s no pleasing some people…

Whilst I don’t want players getting red cards and disadvantaging the team during the 90, I don’t mind a ban for accumulation of yellows, especially Williams, who might need a rest here and there.

That tackle on Rudoni after 17 mins makes Cov think twice about trying to build out through midfield.

 

[CliftonCliff]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Whilst I don’t want players getting red cards and disadvantaging the team during the 90, I don’t mind a ban for accumulation of yellows, especially Williams, who might need a rest here and there.

That tackle on Rudoni after 17 mins makes Cov think twice about trying to build out through midfield.

 

This, exactly.

[Port Said Red]

1 hour ago, CliftonCliff said:

You don’t need a tin hat as far as I’m concerned: I’m with you on this. The rest of our midfield at the moment is made up of Knight, Bird and Twine. All decent players who I like, but they are all, to varying degrees, passers, runners, grafters. You wouldn’t describe any of them as ball-winners. For balance, you must have some aggression in there. It’s a dirty job, but somebody’s got to, etc, etc. There’s a downside, as we’ve seen, and it can cost you sometimes, but take Joe (or his like) out of there, and it won’t be long before you start to see the re-emergence of past complaints about us being a soft touch.

There’s no pleasing some people…

I am not saying he doesn't have his uses, but it's the lack of channelling that aggression that lets him down.

41 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Whilst I don’t want players getting red cards and disadvantaging the team during the 90, I don’t mind a ban for accumulation of yellows, especially Williams, who might need a rest here and there.

That tackle on Rudoni after 17 mins makes Cov think twice about trying to build out through midfield.

 

That's a great tackle, where they are there. It's the ones that are 25 yards from goal and mistimed enough to alert the referees that we don't need.

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I am not saying he doesn't have his uses, but it's the lack of channelling that aggression that lets him down.

That's a great tackle, where they are there. It's the ones that are 25 yards from goal and mistimed enough to alert the referees that we don't need.

I’d much rather Joe Williams style than players half-heartedly dangling a leg, or shortening their stride to avoid having to make a tackle, or letting a player get away.

His fouls as a percentage of all duels (ground, aerial, sliding tackles, interceptions) and the number of times he recovers the ball for us, is fine imho.

+++++

Champ career: 1.29 fouls per 90

Yellows: 0.30 yellow cards per 90

[Port Said Red]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I’d much rather Joe Williams style than players half-heartedly dangling a leg, or shortening their stride to avoid having to make a tackle, or letting a player get away.

His fouls as a percentage of all duels (ground, aerial, sliding tackles, interceptions) and the number of times he recovers the ball for us, is fine imho.

+++++

Champ career: 1.29 fouls per 90

Yellows: 0.30 yellow cards per 90

Like I said, he has his uses. It's about where and why, not the stats.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Like I said, he has his uses. It's about where and why, not the stats.

I’m perfectly comfortable with where and why, that’s his game, and a big asset to this City side. If you tell him to not challenge around our box becayse that’s a dangerous position, then your opponents won’t feel any pressure when trying that killer action (shot, pass, etc).

(the numbers are just to show others that he’s not a walking red card, doesn’t foul every tackle, etc, like some would lead us to believe)

[Ashton Fete]

I remember a couple of years ago Sykes getting bullied in a 50:50 and immediately losing his temper going studs up on same player and getting sent off. 

Point being these things happen, Williams has bite to his play but earlier in the thread it said he’s been sent off twice in 200+ games which is then less than 2% of his games. I’d take Williams the way he plays based on that percentage 

[italian dave]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’d much rather Joe Williams style than players half-heartedly dangling a leg, or shortening their stride to avoid having to make a tackle, or letting a player get away.

His fouls as a percentage of all duels (ground, aerial, sliding tackles, interceptions) and the number of times he recovers the ball for us, is fine imho.

+++++

Champ career: 1.29 fouls per 90

Yellows: 0.30 yellow cards per 90

Don’t argue with the first paragraph Dave - although the circumstances around Saturday’s incident are nothing to do with fouls or tackles!

There’s also the Paolo Maldini quote that someone mentioned earlier, and which I think is very apt - although I appreciate that things are a little different for defenders.

I don’t know what the context for those stats is but the two things that stand out for me are

a) that seems like quite a high foul/yellow ratio (is it?). If it is then that would suggest that a high % of those fouls are pretty rash, and/or that he picked up yellows for other things (like Saturday).

b) by my reckoning, that yellow stat means that he misses at least three matches through suspension every season. Something we could do without.

[CliftonCliff]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’d much rather Joe Williams style than players half-heartedly dangling a leg, or shortening their stride to avoid having to make a tackle, or letting a player get away.

His fouls as a percentage of all duels (ground, aerial, sliding tackles, interceptions) and the number of times he recovers the ball for us, is fine imho.

+++++

Champ career: 1.29 fouls per 90

Yellows: 0.30 yellow cards per 90

Am I reading that right? An average of just over one free kick conceded per game - is that what that's telling us?

I'm not a great one for stats, but that made me sit up and take notice. Based on what I've seen with my own eyes over several years, that's a bit of a surprise, to put it mildly. It also seems rather at odds with the yellow card record. He only gets pulled up for just over one foul per match on average, but gets booked once in roughly every three games. 

It does make me wonder a little about the data collection. Or maybe I've completely misunderstood: stats are definitely not my thing, as I say.

[BLRed]

Regardless of the 'bite' he may offer, he is lacking significantly in many other areas and im baffled that we signed him up again on a 3 year deal. With the other players we have now, he should be back up at best.

If you're wanting bite, we have that in knight who gets around and puts a foot in. Bird can sit in the 8 with twine in the 10. Now we also have Mcguane.

Maybe an unpopular opinion, and I dont care for the reaction, but a ban for Williams would be a good thing so that Manning is forced to see how good his team can be without him.

[Shauntaylor85]

21 minutes ago, BLRed said:

Regardless of the 'bite' he may offer, he is lacking significantly in many other areas and im baffled that we signed him up again on a 3 year deal. With the other players we have now, he should be back up at best.

If you're wanting bite, we have that in knight who gets around and puts a foot in. Bird can sit in the 8 with twine in the 10. Now we also have Mcguane.

Maybe an unpopular opinion, and I dont care for the reaction, but a ban for Williams would be a good thing so that Manning is forced to see how good his team can be without him.

The three we are playing isn’t going to get us into the play offs. It needs to be Bird and one of Williams and Knight, with Twine playing in the 10. Yu and a new winger and we may go places. 

[Davefevs]

30 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Don’t argue with the first paragraph Dave - although the circumstances around Saturday’s incident are nothing to do with fouls or tackles!

There’s also the Paolo Maldini quote that someone mentioned earlier, and which I think is very apt - although I appreciate that things are a little different for defenders.

I don’t know what the context for those stats is but the two things that stand out for me are

a) that seems like quite a high foul/yellow ratio (is it?). If it is then that would suggest that a high % of those fouls are pretty rash, and/or that he picked up yellows for other things (like Saturday).

b) by my reckoning, that yellow stat means that he misses at least three matches through suspension every season. Something we could do without.

The Maldini quote bugs me a bit.  Think people latch onto it, without really thinking that he was one of the best and sometimes opponents do good things that mean a sliding tackle is needed, rather than being a mistake per se, could be someone else’s error.

a) think some of Joe’s yellows are rash, some have been for back-chat too.  I’d rather he cut out the back-chat ones.

b) joe isn’t likely to play 46 * 90, minutes-wise, he might play 30-35, and with the progressive yellow card ban scheme, at 19, and 38 games, he might not get any.

Even if he missed 3 games I wouldn’t be overly fussed.

122 CMs who played 750 mins plus:

 

Joe 59th in terms of fouls per yellow.

[Davefevs]

Anyway, I’m more than happy to have Joe and his playing style as a key part of my City squad.  Othered might not.  The beauty of OTIB.

[PHILINFRANCE]

19 hours ago, cotswoldred2 said:

How long have we been saying we are 'soft'? Not just us but our opponents too, and when one of ours shows some passion, some fight we moan, not me I would take the ban and hope we show a bit more bottle at times, we don't do the black arts or the niggly things that wind opposition up, like a Vardy, or dare I say a Gow,or Hunter and who was that full back scouser we had from Everton? Biggest wind up merchant and we loved it, he played to the East End and we lapped it up.

 

Is this who you mean?

The former Everton full back, John Bailey.

He used to like a quick pint (or three) after a Saturday afternoon match, before catching his train back to Liverpool.

[lenred]

People have moaned that we are too soft for years (including me - vehemently at times).  Having players like Joe ensures that teams don’t think that they can just turn up and take the proverbial and roll us over.   Long may it continue.   

[cotswoldred2]

29 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Is this who you mean?

The former Everton full back, John Bailey.

He used to like a quick pint (or three) after a Saturday afternoon match, before catching his train back to Liverpool.

Yep, I remembered just after posting...cheers for that.

[Numero Uno]

12 hours ago, italian dave said:

He’s hardly a ‘young lad’ is he? 200 Championship appearances. He’s one of our senior players.

I don’t dispute what you say. But that doesn’t make it defensible, doesn’t make it something to be excused, and it’s something that potentially affects the whole team and the outcome of a game.

He probably should have got a red (second yellow) at Hull. And getting involved like he did Saturday risks (rightly or wrongly) a red too. And we need him playing every week because when he’s at his best his controlled aggression makes him one of our best players. 

I’m not excusing it or saying Williams was in the right but it does happen now and again. As somebody pointed out Williams averages a red card every 110 games. If he was lucky to escape on Saturday we should be ok for his next 109 games

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

If Williams were to receive a ban for the handbags on Saturday then Jolinton should get 6 months for his 'clothesline' yesterday. Ridiculous that he wasn't sent off. 

Edited August 26 by RoystonFoote'snephew
Added content

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

The Maldini quote bugs me a bit.  Think people latch onto it, without really thinking that he was one of the best and sometimes opponents do good things that mean a sliding tackle is needed, rather than being a mistake per se, could be someone else’s error.

a) think some of Joe’s yellows are rash, some have been for back-chat too.  I’d rather he cut out the back-chat ones.

b) joe isn’t likely to play 46 * 90, minutes-wise, he might play 30-35, and with the progressive yellow card ban scheme, at 19, and 38 games, he might not get any.

Even if he missed 3 games I wouldn’t be overly fussed.

122 CMs who played 750 mins plus:

 

Joe 59th in terms of fouls per yellow.

Thanks Dave. That context is interesting. R###s - two in the top 15; dirty bar stewards!! 

I don’t think that just because Maldini was one of the best (the best?) makes that statement any less valid. It’s about reading the game and using your head. I always thought it was something Lloyd Kelly, for example, followed and benefitted his game massively. Even Zak, to a degree: his tackles are often sorting out someone else’s mistake - and yes of course that’s an exception. 

a). I think that’s the point I’m trying to make in all this. It’s the unnecessary ones that are the problem, and Saturdays was unnecessary.

b) He’s played the full 90 minutes all three games so far this season. (And is already nearly half way to a ban!!). Just saying! 

[Red-Robbo]

12 hours ago, MythikRobins said:

That's how you want your wingers to be IMO. Get into their heads, annoy them, bait them be tricky and manipulative. Anything that can make them more rash, less controlled, get them booked and make your job easier.

Think he's just a bit of an unpleasant gobby person. 

Cov generally were surprisingly dirty. The ref allowed them to get away with a hell of a lot.

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Think he's just a bit of an unpleasant gobby person. 

Cov generally were surprisingly dirty. The ref allowed them to get away with a hell of a lot.

Yes, makes me laugh that some Coventry fans are saying the opposite. Generally we didn't get much.

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes, makes me laugh that some Coventry fans are saying the opposite. Generally we didn't get much.

I reckon the ref went back on their coach.

Like to see our penalty shout in slo-mo. 9 times out of 10 if someone pulls your shirt when you are on the ball in a scoring position in the box, a penalty will be given.  It was right in front of the ref and his useless Dolman-side assistant as well. 

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Thanks Dave. That context is interesting. R###s - two in the top 15; dirty bar stewards!! 

I don’t think that just because Maldini was one of the best (the best?) makes that statement any less valid. It’s about reading the game and using your head. I always thought it was something Lloyd Kelly, for example, followed and benefitted his game massively. Even Zak, to a degree: his tackles are often sorting out someone else’s mistake - and yes of course that’s an exception. 

a). I think that’s the point I’m trying to make in all this. It’s the unnecessary ones that are the problem, and Saturdays was unnecessary.

b) He’s played the full 90 minutes all three games so far this season. (And is already nearly half way to a ban!!). Just saying! 

A) yes, handbags yellows are stupid.

B) yep, but it doesn’t bother me if he does get a ban after 8 games say.  I’m a fan who likes his aggression.

Re Rovers, that list is showing current club, not last season’s club.  Lindsay at Rotherham for example.

[italian dave]

30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

A) yes, handbags yellows are stupid.

B) yep, but it doesn’t bother me if he does get a ban after 8 games say.  I’m a fan who likes his aggression.

Re Rovers, that list is showing current club, not last season’s club.  Lindsay at Rotherham for example.

Busy accumulating the EFL’s dirtiest though!!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

I reckon the ref went back on their coach.

Like to see our penalty shout in slo-mo. 9 times out of 10 if someone pulls your shirt when you are on the ball in a scoring position in the box, a penalty will be given.  It was right in front of the ref and his useless Dolman-side assistant as well. 

Ah yes the penalty shout in the first half.

Given that the Hull one definitely was and the Millwall one clearly was not, this absolutely goes through the correct threshold for one to be given...and yet??