So, what’s the new expectation?

[cidercity1987]

For me we don't have enough for top six

My concerns are

Too much budget gone on an already excellent defence and they can't all play (I.e Mcnally is an unnecessary signing)

Too little gone towards the strike force and we are left with two unproven plus an aging Wells

Knight and Bird are too lightweight to play in a CM two together so we haven't moved far enough forward in that area of the pitch. I would have been happier with James staying instead of Mcguane as we already look more open without him

We are carrying too many players that aren't going to play, waste of money instead of improving the first XI or depriving us of budget for future years

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

We are carrying too many players that aren't going to play, waste of money instead of improving the first XI or depriving us of budget for future years

That is gonna be the acid test isn’t it?

[The Bard]

22 hours ago, Harry said:

In November 2023 we were advised that the squad was “top end” and we signed Manning to “push us on”. 
 

Since then we have spent a good deal of money and Liam has been able to sign 8 first team players (Bird, Mayulu, Armstrong, Twine, McGuane, McNally, Yu & Earthy). 
 

I shall be expecting playoffs minimum. 

100%.  However I'm not holding my breath.  Biggest issue for me will be can the defence stay stingey whilst we play a more open game? There are early signs that the protection Matty James gave is not there anymore.  If we can keep the attacking threat but go back to conceding a goal a game we will be in with a strong chance.  Also suspect we will be better away from home.

[redsquirrel]

it wont take long to get another 6 in the treatment room, at least we will have 1st teamers to come in rather than blooding academy to make up the numbers. squad has been too light for the last couple of seasons. it wont be that easy tho,when the injuries do start piling up, with our luck it will be all of the front line or back line,never an even mix.

[RedRock]

19 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

For me we don't have enough for top six

My concerns are

Too much budget gone on an already excellent defence and they can't all play (I.e Mcnally is an unnecessary signing)

Too little gone towards the strike force and we are left with two unproven plus an aging Wells

Knight and Bird are too lightweight to play in a CM two together so we haven't moved far enough forward in that area of the pitch. I would have been happier with James staying instead of Mcguane as we already look more open without him

We are carrying too many players that aren't going to play, waste of money instead of improving the first XI or depriving us of budget for future years

Agree with most, but we did need a bigger squad due to our propensity to ‘break’ players, so would disagree with carrying too many players’. I’d say the squad gives us the depth we require. 

Think green shoots are appearing. However, much depends on the ability of our two new and unproven strikers to deliver. Some promising signs, but too early to judge. 

I’d say anything lower than 8th would be disappointing. We really do need to mount a serious challenge for the play offs for the season to be judged a success imo. Anything is possible, but would need tangible improvements on the current level of performance to achieve that on and off the field and not sure, yet, whether the current set up and squad can deliver what’s necessary. Early days, but if you use Anis (no change), Liam’s in game management (slight improvement) injury record (decline) as barometers of our capacity to improve you can see the reasons for the doubts.

 

[INCRED]

40 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

For me we don't have enough for top six

My concerns are

Too much budget gone on an already excellent defence and they can't all play (I.e Mcnally is an unnecessary signing)

Too little gone towards the strike force and we are left with two unproven plus an aging Wells

Knight and Bird are too lightweight to play in a CM two together so we haven't moved far enough forward in that area of the pitch. I would have been happier with James staying instead of Mcguane as we already look more open without him

We are carrying too many players that aren't going to play, waste of money instead of improving the first XI or depriving us of budget for future years

[Simon bristol]

I still think we will end up finishing around 10-14, but i do think we have got some players who are in theory at a level where they are top 6 ish… if they all stay fit, we have a chance, but looking down the squad there are some who wouldnt really be at that level. That also means that we will have to run the gauntlet with injuries, there are a few lads who absolutely have to stay fit.

[And Its Smith]

47 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

For me we don't have enough for top six

My concerns are

Too much budget gone on an already excellent defence and they can't all play (I.e Mcnally is an unnecessary signing)

Too little gone towards the strike force and we are left with two unproven plus an aging Wells

Knight and Bird are too lightweight to play in a CM two together so we haven't moved far enough forward in that area of the pitch. I would have been happier with James staying instead of Mcguane as we already look more open without him

We are carrying too many players that aren't going to play, waste of money instead of improving the first XI or depriving us of budget for future years

Who have we spend good money on that won’t play?  We need a strong second XI as we will continue to get injuries.  
 

We have strengthened well but I think a lot of fans forget that most other teams have strengthened as well.  I was hoping top 10 before a ball was kicked and that’s not changed.  Play offs next season.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

Most other teams have made changes but not necessarily net stronger. Jury is out on a few IMO.

That's not to say Playoffs or bust or anything.

Edited August 31 by Mr Popodopolous

[TDarwall]

47 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That is gonna be the acid test isn’t it?

When we went up under Cotts, it felt like we had a lean squad, but the 1st team "15" was absolutely mustard. We then made some v smart loan moves when injuries occurred; Matt Smith & Tavernier.

This feels like the opposite, we've got a strong squad of decent players of similar std to each other.  However, it doesn't matter if we have 15 centre backs of equal ability if that ability isn't sufficient to progress (but it does make us more resilient to injuries etc).

Of course it's "relatively" easy for us to buy the best players at league 1 level, but it's impossible to do it in the Championship. I've no idea if it's the right strategy or not, but I tend not to over analyse - I really enjoyed the Millwall / Cov games & if we continue on that track I'll be pretty happy.

[INCRED]

42 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

For me we don't have enough for top six

My concerns are

Too much budget gone on an already excellent defence and they can't all play (I.e Mcnally is an unnecessary signing)

Too little gone towards the strike force and we are left with two unproven plus an aging Wells

Knight and Bird are too lightweight to play in a CM two together so we haven't moved far enough forward in that area of the pitch. I would have been happier with James staying instead of Mcguane as we already look more open without him

We are carrying too many players that aren't going to play, waste of money instead of improving the first XI or depriving us of budget for future years

Let’s just break this down!

budget - net spend is around £10m if you take into account TC going to Boro which in the grand scheme of things isn’t a big outlay for this division, so some very prudent recruitment

Knight & Bird - Bird is excelling in a 10 role and Knight is basically the destroyer in midfield. James didn’t and couldn’t play either role to the same levels. Williams has been the defensive screen in front of the defence and is far more adept & aggressive than James would be so it was correct to let James go and bring in cover for Williams/Knight

Carrying too many players - last season we suffered with injuries and had no depth to the squad to cover and thus having to fill the bench with young inexperienced academy players. The current squad depth is about right (25) to hopefully cover for all eventualities over a season 

Waste of money - Recruiting good young players that will only improve and gain in value for potential sell on or would you rather we go back to spending £8m on a player who is late 20’s on a downward spiral and happy to pick up £30-£40k a week and has no ambition to improve themselves or the team?

What we now have is a very talented group of players who have the ability to improve us as a club and a manager/coach who also has ambitions to do the same 

I think the direction of travel is correct for us as a club and certainly the recruitment has been wise and prudent 

[RedRock]

5 minutes ago, TDarwall said:

When we went up under Cotts, it felt like we had a lean squad, but the 1st team "15" was absolutely mustard. We then made some v smart loan moves when injuries occurred; Matt Smith & Tavernier.

This feels like the opposite, we've got a strong squad of decent players of similar std to each other.  However, it doesn't matter if we have 15 centre backs of equal ability if that ability isn't sufficient to progress (but it does make us more resilient to injuries etc).

Of course it's "relatively" easy for us to buy the best players at league 1 level, but it's impossible to do it in the Championship. I've no idea if it's the right strategy or not, but I tend not to over analyse - I really enjoyed the Millwall / Cov games & if we continue on that track I'll be pretty happy.

I think the key is that we aren’t going to achieve promotion by buying ‘the best’. We simply can’t compete in the transfer market with the parachute payment clubs and Premier League relegated squads. Even if you set FFP to one side, that strategy involves massive risk that could put the future of the Club in jeopardy if it failed to deliver. 

The ‘smart’ way for a club in our position is to build a squad and make the sum larger than its individual parts. So gel a team a real strong unit, well drilled, know each others strengths/weaknesses, astute tactical management etc …. clearly, from the Club’s press conferences this is our chosen method. 

Will it work? It has done - Sheff Utd, Luton, Ipswich just recent examples - so no reason why not. Just need all the right pegs in the right holes, for several players to hit a run of top form together and us to develop a ruthless streak (that’s controlled aggression Mr Williams!) which has been missing for far too long.

 

[Sandhurst Red]

Bizarrely, this is where we may see Manning excel with his management skills. Not on the pitch, nor the training ground, but the ability to manage a squad where natural disappointment of not even making a bench needs to be handled carefully.

If done so, you can see from previous promotion teams (think QPR under Warnock) they breed a culture of accountability and opportunity for players to prove they are worth a nod. You ensure those starting can't take it easy or they could be replaced and generate a genuine competitiveness that ensures each time we take to the pitch, we see a bite that has been lacking at times in recent years.

We perhaps have 2 players more than ideal, where developing youth would fill the role of a more experienced pro, but with many out of of contract next summer, you can see the strategic thinking of 2 players for each role as a minimum.

With Manning and Hogg, you can also see there is an approach to coach and improve players, something this squad will benefit from, and though many question why he has been given so much influence on new players when 'we already had a squad to compete', we must remember who said this and under what context.

We have had natural turnover, but we have also retained many players that he inherited, with the defence almost identical, with some new players added - whereas upfront has changed - something we all cried out for when Pearson was here.

[cidercity1987]

27 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Who have we spend good money on that won’t play?  We need a strong second XI as we will continue to get injuries.  
 

We have strengthened well but I think a lot of fans forget that most other teams have strengthened as well.  I was hoping top 10 before a ball was kicked and that’s not changed.  Play offs next season.  

I didn't say we had wasted money on players who aren't going to play, it's more disappointing from a budget perspective that the likes of Cornick are still here and we couldn't move on. But as you asked I really can't see where McNally fits into the team at a cost of millions.

17 minutes ago, INCRED said:

Let’s just break this down!

budget - net spend is around £10m if you take into account TC going to Boro which in the grand scheme of things isn’t a big outlay for this division, so some very prudent recruitment

Knight & Bird - Bird is excelling in a 10 role and Knight is basically the destroyer in midfield. James didn’t and couldn’t play either role to the same levels. Williams has been the defensive screen in front of the defence and is far more adept & aggressive than James would be so it was correct to let James go and bring in cover for Williams/Knight

Carrying too many players - last season we suffered with injuries and had no depth to the squad to cover and thus having to fill the bench with young inexperienced academy players. The current squad depth is about right (25) to hopefully cover for all eventualities over a season 

Waste of money - Recruiting good young players that will only improve and gain in value for potential sell on or would you rather we go back to spending £8m on a player who is late 20’s on a downward spiral and happy to pick up £30-£40k a week and has no ambition to improve themselves or the team?

What we now have is a very talented group of players who have the ability to improve us as a club and a manager/coach who also has ambitions to do the same 

I think the direction of travel is correct for us as a club and certainly the recruitment has been wise and prudent 

We have a squad of 27 I believe with very few youngsters who aren't on a first team wage. 

It was just interesting for me the decision making process that takes the 4th best defence, a poor attacking force, loses our best striker and yet we strengthen the defence and don't purchase a more proven striker 

I like the signings of Twine and Earthy, not sure both were required but it's certainly a position we were lacking 

[Mr Popodopolous]

@Sandhurst Red

QPR had the highest wage bill in the League under Warnock and that was back in 2010-11.

Granted some of this will be Promotion Bonuses but not that much in those days.

Courtesy of Swiss Ramble back in the day. Maybe Portsmouth higher but far from clear.

[Sandhurst Red]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@Sandhurst Red

QPR had the highest wage bill in the League under Warnock and that was back in 2010-11.

Granted some of this will be Promotion Bonuses but not that much in those days.

Courtesy of Swiss Ramble back in the day. Maybe Portsmouth higher but far from clear.

Oh absolutely they spent and had money - I wasn't drawing a complete parallel between out situations, but if you listen to interviews with Warnock and that team - they all state that the dressing room was one that was together, hungry, competitive and pushed one another to success. 

They had a head start with the recruitment, but I'm a firm believer that you need the right changing room culture to have any chance of promotion, irrespective of money spent. Ego's can ruin everything - and yes some may get away with it, inevitably it will come and bite you at some point. What is taking place with the other BCFC will be fascinating to view from afar. The pressure as a club, manager and players they will now face, I feel may implode on itself - as the culture will not immediately enable itself to breed what is required. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Sandhurst Red said:

Oh absolutely they spent and had money - I wasn't drawing a complete parallel between out situations, but if you listen to interviews with Warnock and that team - they all state that the dressing room was one that was together, hungry, competitive and pushed one another to success. 

They had a head start with the recruitment, but I'm a firm believer that you need the right changing room culture to have any chance of promotion, irrespective of money spent. Ego's can ruin everything - and yes some may get away with it, inevitably it will come and bite you at some point. What is taking place with the other BCFC will be fascinating to view from afar. The pressure as a club, manager and players they will now face, I feel may implode on itself - as the culture will not immediately enable itself to breed what is required. 

Taarabt was pretty unplayable that year. I'll look into that thanks.

That aside, culture is key yes. I believe this was being sorted out under Nige and hopefully Manning will do likewise.

The other BCFC is fascinating without a doubt. Financially and generally, this makes Ipswich down there look like relative paupers. Those cold, wet night away games in small grounds..The scalp they represent now, it has potential to blow up. Probably won't but there is potential.

Edited August 31 by Mr Popodopolous

[Sandhurst Red]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Taarabt was pretty unplayable that year. I'll look into that thanks.

That aside, culture is key yes. I believe this was being sorted out under Nige and hopefully Manning will do likewise.

The other BCFC is fascinating without a doubt. Financially and generally, this makes Ipswich down there look like relative paupers. Those cold, wet night away games in small grounds..The scalp they represent now, it has potential to blow up. Probably won't but there is potential.

If not listened to/watched this before - well worth 75 mins of your time. 

As much as you can love/loathe him, he know's what is needed for success and I feel we would have benefited from him taking us over at some point. It's only in the last few years I can see that, as had I been asked about the prospect of him managing us prior to then - absolutely no way! Time can be a funny old thing.

Regarding Brum - I shouldn't say, but I hope it implodes. All the points you make are spot on and it is a concern/threat to lower league football if that becomes a blueprint for success. All it will do is, discourage UK owners to invest and attract more Foreign investment, built upon expectations of success. At the risk of sounding a little OTT, this could become a real sliding doors moment for League One/Two football and the Pyramid structure. It really concerns me and sends the wrong message, what they have done in the last 3 months since relegation. 

 

[INCRED]

13 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

I didn't say we had wasted money on players who aren't going to play, it's more disappointing from a budget perspective that the likes of Cornick are still here and we couldn't move on. But as you asked I really can't see where McNally fits into the team at a cost of millions.

We have a squad of 27 I believe with very few youngsters who aren't on a first team wage. 

It was just interesting for me the decision making process that takes the 4th best defence, a poor attacking force, loses our best striker and yet we strengthen the defence and don't purchase a more proven striker 

I like the signings of Twine and Earthy, not sure both were required but it's certainly a position we were lacking 

We have brought in one CB where as we have added 5-6 attacking players?

That tells me that we recognise we have a good defensive group of players but we’re lacking in the final third 

TC was hardly prolific and I wouldn’t bet against both Mayulu & Armstrong scoring more than TC did last season - prolific strikers cost big bucks and we weren’t going to use our budget on a single signing when we needed to improve the whole attacking structure of the team. That’s not to say we could go all out and get a striker in January or next summer to give us that extra cutting edge 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, Sandhurst Red said:

If not listened to/watched this before - well worth 75 mins of your time. 

As much as you can love/loathe him, he know's what is needed for success and I feel we would have benefited from him taking us over at some point. It's only in the last few years I can see that, as had I been asked about the prospect of him managing us prior to then - absolutely no way! Time can be a funny old thing.

Regarding Brum - I shouldn't say, but I hope it implodes. All the points you make are spot on and it is a concern/threat to lower league football if that becomes a blueprint for success. All it will do is, discourage UK owners to invest and attract more Foreign investment, built upon expectations of success. At the risk of sounding a little OTT, this could become a real sliding doors moment for League One/Two football and the Pyramid structure. It really concerns me and sends the wrong message, what they have done in the last 3 months since relegation. 

 

Thanks, I'll look to watch it in the next week or so. I remember a QPR documentary under their Briatore etc whenever it was, maybe was s pre Warnock.

Yeah basically spot on. I hope it goes belly-up, I could just about get their expenditure to a day or 2 ago especially with James and Dembele and some others going and e.g. Wright and another in, Miyoshi to the Bundesliga.

Stansfield however, complete joke..It's actually batshit it deserves to go belly-up.

[ORANGE500]

1 hour ago, Simon bristol said:

I still think we will end up finishing around 10-14, but i do think we have got some players who are in theory at a level where they are top 6 ish… if they all stay fit, we have a chance, but looking down the squad there are some who wouldnt really be at that level. That also means that we will have to run the gauntlet with injuries, there are a few lads who absolutely have to stay fit.

14th!!!! I'm going to use the first and hopefully the last FFS  of the day we have a bloody good squad and there are not 13 better than ours this season.

[Simon bristol]

7 minutes ago, ORANGE500 said:

14th!!!! I'm going to use the first and hopefully the last FFS  of the day we have a bloody good squad and there are not 13 better than ours this season.

Well we will see, but previous experience of us ballsing it up suggests jt will happen again… if anything happens to oleary we will be in for a battle at the other end 

[ORANGE500]

2 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Well we will see, but previous experience of us ballsing it up suggests jt will happen again… if anything happens to oleary we will be in for a battle at the other end 

If I was as miserable and pessimistic as you I'd sack it off mate  and do something else for there's nothing this club could possibly do to please you.

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, ORANGE500 said:

14th!!!! I'm going to use the first and hopefully the last FFS  of the day we have a bloody good squad and there are not 13 better than ours this season.

And how many do you think are better than us, out of interest, so we can gauge where you think we’ll finish.

(he did say 10-14th btw)

Edited August 31 by Davefevs

[ORANGE500]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And how many do you think are better than us, out of interest, so we can gauge where you think we’ll finish.

(he did say 10-14th btw)

I highlighted 14th because IMO that''s wildly pessimistic given we finished 11th last season and  on the evidence of the opening games we have signed some good players that have improved the team, however that prediction suggests we are worse how anyone  comes to that conclusion I don't know, my own prediction between 5th and 8th.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, ORANGE500 said:

I highlighted 14th because IMO that''s wildly pessimistic given we finished 11th last season and  on the evidence of the opening games we have signed some good players that have improved the team, however that prediction suggests we are worse how anyone  comes to that conclusion I don't know, my own prediction between 5th and 8th.

I think some of it comes from historical delivery v expectation, as per Simon’s rationale, some of it could come from things like failure to gel, man-management issues, injuries, defence being less strong, etc.

The middle ground says we are likely to be improved, so should be / hopefully will be a good season.

[Simon bristol]

29 minutes ago, ORANGE500 said:

If I was as miserable and pessimistic as you I'd sack it off mate  and do something else for there's nothing this club could possibly do to please you.

Maybe so, ive been watching 40 years so ive got the right to be pessimistic, but its the hope that gets you

[redkev]

4 hours ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

How boring! Play offs or bust, or what’s the point? 

So if it’s bust what do we do , just stop supporting the team I have for the last 50 years and go down the allotment 

[redkev]

Other team’s expectations of us are quite funny , I was in Leeds a few weeks back working and a lad ( obviously a Leeds fan ) seen my city tattoo and said god Bristol city us Leeds fans class you and Preston as the epitome of bang average middle of the table teams , I replied I’m happy with that as we class you as arrogant and having rather high opinions of yourself , to which in fairness he smiled and said your probably right 

[Supersonic Robin]

Here's how I see it:

• We fired the previous manager and appointed a new one with the justification "we should be in and around the top 6 this season, the new manager will get us there".
   
• The new manager inherited a midtable team in an excellent position - a strong young squad with money in the bank (nest egg) to spend. He's now had almost a year to work with the squad, including 2 transfer windows and a full pre-season.
   
• This summer, we have given the manager a decent amount of money to spend in order to push on from 11th. He was given everything he wanted (including his star signing, Twine) and then a bit more.
   
• The manager wasn't forced to lose any key players to fund the spending (arguably Conway, but the evidence suggested that he wanted a new striker regardless of the Conway situation).
   
• The manager has been allowed to make some "short-term decisions" re recruitment (e.g. bringing in Earthy on loan).
   

Given the above, the expectation should probably be that we're battling for the play offs this season - let's say a top third finish (8th or above).

My prediction is that we may fall slightly short of that.

[ExiledAjax]

I can't recall the precise numbers but if the average points for bottom and top are 40 and 90 respectively then you've got a 50 point range covering 24 places (inclusive).

So roughly 2 points on average between each position (assuming equal distribution which it probably isn't ever).

Fag packet pub maths in this post but it's just something to bear in mind when arguing about whether or not we finish in 8th or 12th. You're probably arguing about a difference of 2 or 3 results.

Edited August 31 by ExiledAjax

[cidercity1987]

6 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

For me we don't have enough for top six

My concerns are

Too much budget gone on an already excellent defence and they can't all play (I.e Mcnally is an unnecessary signing)

Too little gone towards the strike force and we are left with two unproven plus an aging Wells

Knight and Bird are too lightweight to play in a CM two together so we haven't moved far enough forward in that area of the pitch. I would have been happier with James staying instead of Mcguane as we already look more open without him

We are carrying too many players that aren't going to play, waste of money instead of improving the first XI or depriving us of budget for future years

Anyone truly disagreeing with this after a game in which we've been pumped three by a team whose own manager say are League One?

We've spent millions and gone backwards ffs. No strikeforce to speak of and we look so much more open than last season defensively. 

[BeggyBlaggers]

Well, given Manning is barely into double figures in matches won during his time here and given hes coming up to the 'average championship manager tenure' a fair expectation is another season of absolute wasted time.

The in game management is terrible and we have conceded an average of 2 goals a game, which doesnt bode well given we have 2 unproven strikers for the championship.

 

18th at best at this rate

[Sir Geoff]

Well the three wise men in our boardroom must be hoping we have a 100 per cent win record leading up to the next International break or they are going to look rather silly for sacking the previous manager due to results not being good enough.

[downendcity]

I've just got home after spending a week in Wiltshire on grandparent duties.

Earlier in the week I tried to post on this thread but had internet problems, but I had drafted and saved the post as a document. In view of today's result I thought it worth posting as it seems appropriate with the benefit of hindsight.

 

My other expectations were that one poor result brings out the OTIB wolves baying for Manning, SL's, JL's and BT's blood. Having said that, Manning does need to be more proactive with his in game management and quickly needs to shore up a defence which seems to be moving to a position whereby we will need to score  if we are going to win games. He also needs to address the fact that when we concede we seem to all to easily fall apart at the back. 

[Out of his pie crust]

A steady 14th, like the start of the season 

[Sturny]

I'm expexting another finish between our usual 11-18th place for the 6th year in a row. With no new lessons learnt just extra debt. 

yay

 

[harvey54]

Closer to relegation than play offs.

A manager that's out of his depth and making it up as he goes along. 

No proven goalscorer in a team of journeyman misfits. 

Same shit, different day

Edited August 31 by harvey54