Match Report: Fast Going Backwards Slowly

[JP Hampton]

2 hours ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

The science for this has been done over and over and it's fixed.  For example if your driving a car, and trying to solve complex problems that involve accessing stored information, what you're doing subconsciously suffers and you're 4x more likely to crash your car.  It's actually worse than using a mobile.

It's very hard to increase the cognitive capacity of someone, it's generally fairly fixed.

Remember were not talking intelligence were talking the number of things you can do simultaneously without effecting the things your doing subconsciously or football skills,muscle memory etc.

So to apply that to football from the driving analogy.  The more complex a set of instructions you're trying to play to, the more likely you are to trip over your boots.  Players are better off using their own attributes, to a simple playbook to operate at peak performance.

Totally agree with this and something I felt last season. 

[Superjack]

6 hours ago, maxjak said:

Jesus on a surfboard!    When OLE'  states that, the performance is IN the worst 5 he has ever witnessed in his long and extremely well observed ongoing analysis of City games...................I then begin to seriously worry about our current manager's ability to turn it around?    Manning has had free reign as to who he recruits, he has 2 weeks between games to train, organise and instigate a tactical plan to combat the mistakes that were made at Derby, yet he has failed miserably  in every sense of the word?   I am prepared to allow for the occasional misstep during the process of setting up a team which has an abundance of new players settling into a new system....................but for pheck sake, this displays a lack of tactical awareness and a naivety that is inexcusable?   Too much talk and very little action IMO,      Sort it  out Manning, your honeymoon is over,  talk is cheap, and a serious response is needed ASAP.

Manning can't sort it out. He isn't capable. 

Direct your ire to the real culprits.

 

[FNQ]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

You are right.

He needs to play as an 8.  That’s where he’s best.  LM’s current set-up doesn’t play with an 8.

Just talking off the top of my head, I wonder if we could create a system with a front 6 of:

Twine (LW) Armstrong (CF) Sykes (RW)

       Bird (8)                  Knight (8)

                   McGuane (6)

You could argue it’s 433 or even 4141.

But Knight is not at his best playing from so deep.  He would run beyond Armstrong (or Mayulu) too.

 

Last season JK was not at his best playing too forward… now not at his best playing too deep. Where he is at his best doesn’t suit Liam’s set up? Based on this obvious impasse in most other well run teams he wouldn’t be getting near a regular start, let alone allowed to then become a cause of a major uncomfortable and unsuccessful reshuffle purely made to accomodate him. I know that as captain it’s probably harder to drop him, but there again, and although through my very limited view on RTV, he’s hardly coming across as a strong Roy Keane / Louis Carey type on-field leader either. We need a shake up and the team needs to be picked on honest competitive merit not personality.

[exAtyeoMax]

14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I do worry about the - "we speak 8 or 9 times a day" stuff.  Why?

That’s what I meant by interference! Blimey, that’s noise

[TedsHeadIs Red]

16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I do worry about the - "we speak 8 or 9 times a day" stuff.  Why?

Perhaps it’s just an awkward “hello again” as they keep passing each other in the corridor 

[Davefevs]

9 hours ago, Fuber said:

To a degree.

My point was more that in the thought that Tanners role generally hasn't changed under NP to now. I.e. rotating between full back or right side of back three. Dont think you can say Tanner has improved to any great degree to where its noticeable, to be honest, that isn't a side effect of the style in play. I.e. more possession meaning less likely to be caught out of position as often, and he's always been cautious in possession.

Generally think he would have improved the more he played no matter who was in charge as hes always been consistent and aware of his ljmits. Doesn't help him (nor Manning) that Vyner behind is looking worse each game at the moment, ergo how you'd attribute him a rating (such as the last two games) becomes more difficult.

As a comparison. Even LJ improved the likes of Pack to a noticeable degree (the blind inside pass, feints, etc), Reid, Bryan, Webster, all thrived under him. Not just one player, and I was one of LJs biggest critiques.

As its just Tanner, it becomes a question of whether it's just down to him as an Individual. I'd exped at least some correlation with others in the squad.

And to @cotswoldred2

This is an age old debate and one that is difficult to answer, at best it’s subjective, at worst it becomes agenda based.

I used to argue similarly about LJ - the “wonder coach” and people pointing out how he’d improved Brownhill, but being an awkward sod, I’d always add - what about O’Dowda, then?

Part of my argument / challenge was - how much was down to the coach versus how much was down to a bit of natural progression as they got older / more experienced versus how much was down to the individual’s drive…and possibly one further element, their underlying ability.

Brownhill is a great example though.  I’m sure LJ improved him (tick for Lee), but against those other components:

• aging / experience (tick) signed at 20, with Champ experience (limited) you’d expect him to improve
• drive (tick), a model pro from the outside looking in, totally a player who wanted to get better, saw himself as a future PL player and wanted to get there
• underlying ability (tick) was at Man Utd, ok no guarantees but he must’ve had something

+++++

So FWIW, I’d agree that Tanner has improved in LM’s time here, and I expect LM is responsible for some of that.  He’s come on leaps and bounds since signing, but still needs to improve with the ball.

[FNQ]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And to @cotswoldred2

This is an age old debate and one that is difficult to answer, at best it’s subjective, at worst it becomes agenda based.

I used to argue similarly about LJ - the “wonder coach” and people pointing out how he’d improved Brownhill, but being an awkward sod, I’d always add - what about O’Dowda, then?

Part of my argument / challenge was - how much was down to the coach versus how much was down to a bit of natural progression as they got older / more experienced versus how much was down to the individual’s drive…and possibly one further element, their underlying ability.

Brownhill is a great example though.  I’m sure LJ improved him (tick for Lee), but against those other components:

• aging / experience (tick) signed at 20, with Champ experience (limited) you’d expect him to improve
• drive (tick), a model pro from the outside looking in, totally a player who wanted to get better, saw himself as a future PL player and wanted to get there
• underlying ability (tick) was at Man Utd, ok no guarantees but he must’ve had something

+++++

So FWIW, I’d agree that Tanner has improved in LM’s time here, and I expect LM is responsible for some of that.  He’s come on leaps and bounds since signing, but still needs to improve with the ball.

Just to add Dave, good experienced pros in the camp can also bring young players on in leaps and bounds too. Andy King and Nahki for example were terrific mentors for Tommy.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

On 15/09/2024 at 08:35, Ivorguy said:

I see Manning as stubborn and fear he won’t make the personnel and tactical changes we can all see are blindingly obvious and needed for next game.

We are indeed in serious trouble.

 

I don't blame Manning...it's the bloke who writes his code.

[Davefevs]

50 minutes ago, Mike Hunt-Hertz said:

I don't blame Manning...it's the bloke who writes his code.

Ouch!

[reddogkev]

For me, the serious worry is, if they sack Manning, who's out there that they will go for???

In a perfect world they'd hire NP back, but instead they'll probably just give the job to Hogg, or , the nightmare will happen and BT will have his second crack at the job.

Just think about that for a single second, if you dare, that could actually happen.

[prankerd]

I remember people on here were giving me grief for not being impressed by our 4-3 win after letting in 3 goals in 20 mins..

The manager hasn't got a plan B, the players are not good enough to play this system! We are dreadful at the back.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

15 hours ago, Davefevs said:

You are right.

He needs to play as an 8.  That’s where he’s best.  LM’s current set-up doesn’t play with an 8.

Just talking off the top of my head, I wonder if we could create a system with a front 6 of:

Twine (LW) Armstrong (CF) Sykes (RW)

       Bird (8)                  Knight (8)

                   McGuane (6)

You could argue it’s 433 or even 4141.

But Knight is not at his best playing from so deep.  He would run beyond Armstrong (or Mayulu) too.

 

Absolutely that's his sweet spot, I'm a firm believer in understanding what a players natural attributes are and using them. If Knight had been born 6'3 had wide muscular physical attributes he probably would have been a rugby player.  The fact he has good energy, and a fairly small 5'9 frame means he's ended up falling into that #8 role nicely, it's probably taken 12 years to end up there through youth football into senior football, and performing that role will be natural and subconscious. Move him into a different role and it's less natural and requires more thought and more neural links to be made.

For want of picking an extreme example he could try international rugby but he might not like it.  Just because you're a professional footballer and athlete doesn't mean you can fill every role on a football pitch.  

Edited Monday at 11:07 by Lorenzos Only Goal

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Absolutely that's his sweet spot, I'm a firm believer in understanding what a players natural attributes are and using them. If Knight had been born 6'3 had wide muscular physical attributes he probably would have been a rugby player.  The fact he has good energy, and a fairly small 5'9 frame means he's ended up falling into that #8 role nicely, it's probably taken 12 years to end up there through youth football into senior football, and performing that role will be natural and subconscious. Move him into a different role and it's less natural and requires more thought and more neural links to be made.

For want of picking an extreme example he could try international rugby but he might not like it.  Just because you're a professional footballer and athlete doesn't mean you can fill every role on a football pitch.  

Yep, you want Knight sniffing out interceptions and tackles further forward.  He’s what gives you a higher press or as a minimum a higher block.