Somewhat appropriate.

[Superjack]

[Superjack]

Applies to all areas.

[Lrrr]

But equally you get enough ex pro’s who are shite at coaching too 

[Superjack]

19 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

But equally you get enough ex pro’s who are shite at coaching too 

I'm in the pub trade. 

Yes. There are a few people that have been in my trade for years who are no good at it.

But they aren't employed as managers. 

The majority know what they are doing. 

It's only corporate pubs that employ ****wits. Because they don't care about 'customer' experience as long as the money comes in. 

Sound familiar?

[Severn Beach Pigeon]

4 hours ago, Superjack said:

I'm in the pub trade. 

Yes. There are a few people that have been in my trade for years who are no good at it.

But they aren't employed as managers. 

The majority know what they are doing. 

It's only corporate pubs that employ ****wits. Because they don't care about 'customer' experience as long as the money comes in. 

Sound familiar?

Was Alex Ferguson a good player?

Arsene Wenger?

Jose Mourinho?

Julien Nagelsmann?

 

Was Maradona a good coach?

Gary Neville? Alan Shearer? Stoichkov?

Pirlo, Lampard, Rooney, Sir Bobby Charlton?

Edited Monday at 04:12 by Severn Beach Pigeon

[Roe]

Clough was great but he was wrong here

[Tinmans Love Child]

1 hour ago, Severn Beach Pigeon said:

Was Alex Ferguson a good player?

Arsene Wenger?

Jose Mourinho?

Julien Nagelsmann?

 

Was Maradona a good coach?

Gary Neville? Alan Shearer? Stoichkov?

Pirlo, Lampard, Rooney, Sir Bobby 

 

The non players like Jose you quoted are massively the exception to the rule.  I don't think being a great player equals a great manager, but most managers were pro's at least which is what Clough was referring too I think.
 

Manning never played football so he needs to have even more about him to be a success as a manager, cause you can bet the players all know he never played and will be thinking "what does he know?" and that is the big question now, what does Manning know?

Edited Monday at 05:37 by Tinmans Love Child

[pogue malone]

3 hours ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

 

The non players like Jose you quoted are massively the exception to the rule.  I don't think being a great player equals a great manager, but most managers were pro's at least which is what Clough was referring too I think.
 

Manning never played football so he needs to have even more about him to be a success as a manager, cause you can bet the players all know he never played and will be thinking "what does he know?" and that is the big question now, what does Manning know?

As much as S L and co, maybe less

[frenchred]

5 hours ago, Roe said:

Clough was great but he was wrong here

He really wasnt

[Silvio Dante]

Yeah, love Cloughie but this isn’t right and IMO a stick to beat Manning with that isn’t warranted (there’s enough sticks without this one).

The thing that should be remembered is that Liam isn’t - or shouldn’t be - teaching the team to play football. Cloughie didn’t actually coach sides either - a lot of the stories around him are that he sometimes just showed up after not having been seen. His big skill was man management - which is a lot of the job at this level. It’s knowing where players fit with each other, knowing where to put them and motivating them. Remember Nige not spending time on the training pitch? Similar thing.

The natural conclusion of the quote is that an ex defender can’t coach forwards. And that’s also wrong as you know what you don’t like to play against, even if you can’t do it yourself.

You don’t need to have played at x level to coach at x level. What you need to do is understand the ebb and flow of a game, and understand how to manage/motivate players - and what their limits/weaknesses are. 
 

Liams problem is not not having been a pro. It’s that he hasn’t shown he understands the game outside of a textbook.

 

[Superjack]

5 hours ago, Severn Beach Pigeon said:

Was Alex Ferguson a good player?

Arsene Wenger?

Jose Mourinho?

Julien Nagelsmann?

 

Was Maradona a good coach?

Gary Neville? Alan Shearer? Stoichkov?

Pirlo, Lampard, Rooney, Sir Bobby Charlton?

But I haven't mentioned any of these people. 

I haven't even said that I necessarily agree with the quote. I simply implied that it is 'somewhat appropriate' in the case of Manning.

Tinnion played the game. I would rather see the back of him than Manning, quite frankly.

[Clutton Caveman]

5 hours ago, Severn Beach Pigeon said:

Was Alex Ferguson a good player?

Arsene Wenger?

Jose Mourinho?

Julien Nagelsmann?

 

Was Maradona a good coach?

Gary Neville? Alan Shearer? Stoichkov?

Pirlo, Lampard, Rooney, Sir Bobby Charlton?

All of the above coaches show real leadership honesty and massive tactical awareness and the ability to adapt. Credibility is the dressing room is hard to win and easy to loose. Repeating the same tactics, lines ups and pre match prep after a heavy defeat and expecting a different result or sticking rigidly to the plan when the opposition clearly are on top and finally giving the same drivel in post match interviews will quickly destroy and credibility or respect that may exist.

[The turtle]

12 hours ago, Superjack said:

He makes a strong point. 

However;

Those that couldn't "play"  who did they learn from? Mourinho had the perfect man to bounce off. You can apply that to many levels.

Manning comes from the pep school. It's all theory and ideas, and control with world class players everywhere. As manning is finding out; you can't just just throw in a funky formation randomly at this level as you will get found it, as those players needs those specific skills to do that job.

There was a grand irony this weekend. Our solution this weekend was to play a striker who isn't going to stretch the play, we made the pitch smaller. Man city meanwhile, 2nd goal.. went route 1 over the top thank you very much, no questions asked.

Manning can still be successful here, but he needs to get out of his own way, and at the very least die on the sword fundamentally believes in.

 

[exAtyeoMax]

 

Not relevant at all to this thread

[italian dave]

15 hours ago, Superjack said:

I can’t help feeling that had social media been around in Cloughie’s day he’d have come up with a similarly memorable few words about keyboard warriors who’ve never coached or managed a professional team in their lives!

[Numero Uno]

3 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Yeah, love Cloughie but this isn’t right and IMO a stick to beat Manning with that isn’t warranted (there’s enough sticks without this one).

The thing that should be remembered is that Liam isn’t - or shouldn’t be - teaching the team to play football. Cloughie didn’t actually coach sides either - a lot of the stories around him are that he sometimes just showed up after not having been seen. His big skill was man management - which is a lot of the job at this level. It’s knowing where players fit with each other, knowing where to put them and motivating them. Remember Nige not spending time on the training pitch? Similar thing.

The natural conclusion of the quote is that an ex defender can’t coach forwards. And that’s also wrong as you know what you don’t like to play against, even if you can’t do it yourself.

You don’t need to have played at x level to coach at x level. What you need to do is understand the ebb and flow of a game, and understand how to manage/motivate players - and what their limits/weaknesses are. 
 

Liams problem is not not having been a pro. It’s that he hasn’t shown he understands the game outside of a textbook.

 

Liams record on conceding the first goal is starting to become a millstone around his neck no doubt. Anyone using that stat to claim that he hasn’t got the nous to change the flow of a game is difficult to argue against. A bang average coach of limited tactical knowledge but who knows enough about football to be in the job would expect to pick up a reasonable proportion of draws and the odd win after going behind just by changing things up (pre-planned 60 minute subs ain’t that).  Liams record in that regard is nothing short of appalling and either improves or he’s a gonner.

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Liams record on conceding the first goal is starting to become a millstone around his neck no doubt. Anyone using that stat to claim that he hasn’t got the nous to change the flow of a game is difficult to argue against. A bang average coach of limited tactical knowledge but who knows enough about football to be in the job would expect to pick up a reasonable proportion of draws and the odd win after going behind just by changing things up (pre-planned 60 minute subs ain’t that).  Liams record in that regard is nothing short of appalling and either improves or he’s a gonner.

4 Draws, 12 Losses in those 16 League Games in which we conceded first.

[Superjack]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

I can’t help feeling that had social media been around in Cloughie’s day he’d have come up with a similarly memorable few words about keyboard warriors who’ve never coached or managed a professional team in their lives!

Yes, I'm sure he would. 

I'm sure that he would tell us all to shut up. 

Shall we close down the forum now then?

I know a couple of people in Guernsey and Bermuda that would like that.

[Silvio Dante]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

4 Draws, 12 Losses in those 16 League Games in which we conceded first.

Ouch. That is absolutely damning.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Ouch. That is absolutely damning.

It certainly is..on the flipside we have a very solid record when scoring first under Manning. Even if it is say 1-0, to 1-2 winning isn't uncommon.

However that is alarming and very damning as you say.

[SecretSam]

Clough was useless without Taylor.

I think a better analogy to Clough's is "you don't need to be an F1 driver to teach someone to drive".

[Red from afar]

Unfortunately knowledge in an area doesn't necessarily mean the ability to apply it. 

I've known some very bright people with huge amounts of knowledge who were great in a planned scenario, but when it came to analysing a fast changing situation and the ability to make the right decision at the right time, they floundered. Others soon started to be unsure of their abilities and question their instructions.

Edited Monday at 15:49 by Red from afar

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Red from afar said:

Unfortunately knowledge in an area doesn't necessarily mean the ability to apply it. 

I've known some very bright people with huge amounts of knowledge who were great in a planned scenario, but when it came to analysing a fast changing situation and the ability to make the right decision at the right time, they floundered. Others soon started to be unsure of their abilities and question their instructions.

How long have you been acquainted with Liam!

[Red from afar]

. Not met his acquaintance, but I've worked with people who seem to share personality traits. Another trait that often comes with it is thinking they're cleverer than everyone else and can't see their weaknesses because of it. Hopefully that's not the case.

Edited Monday at 16:27 by Red from afar

[AppyDAZE]

Clough was an all time great, but was also of a certain by gone era. 

As well as saying a lot of good stuff, he also said a lot things that are pretty cringeworthy.

But I don’t really want to open that can of worms.

Overall, I think his heart was in the right place, a great character, and of course, a winner.

 

 

[Red Billy]

A good manager is a good leader. Someone you can get behind because you respect what they are telling you because they’ve been there and done it or they understand what they are talking about. My first day in employment the boss said to me “here’s a toilet brush. Go and clean the pan. Cause if you are going to ask someone to do it then you need to lead by example. Stuck with me all my career.”

[Red Billy]

1 hour ago, Red from afar said:

Unfortunately knowledge in an area doesn't necessarily mean the ability to apply it. 

I've known some very bright people with huge amounts of knowledge who were great in a planned scenario, but when it came to analysing a fast changing situation and the ability to make the right decision at the right time, they floundered. Others soon started to be unsure of their abilities and question their instructions.

University teaches you to wash your hands after a piss. School of life teaches you not to piss on them in the first place.

[SecretSam]

15 hours ago, Davefevs said:

How long have you been acquainted with Liam!

You're not a fan, are you, Dave?

[SecretSam]

13 hours ago, Red Billy said:

University teaches you to wash your hands after a piss. School of life teaches you not to piss on them in the first place.

Do, you would prefer that your doctor went to the "school of life" rather than university? 

Edited Tuesday at 07:16 by SecretSam

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

You're not a fan, are you, Dave?

No, I’m not convinced at all that he can meet the expectations of his appointment without the club spending a shedload on players to cover up his deficiencies.

I don’t think he’s rubbish by any stretch, but this is the championship, and theoretical patterns of play and exciting training sessions don’t cut it alone.

I expect better than mid-table, let alone where we are at this formative stage of the season.  But it is still early season so I’m a bit blasé about it all tbh.