A record for Twine…

[Silvio Dante]

Two of them look like corners, but I am struggling to remember “big” chances created by ST in the game. Anyone have any steer what the other five were and the xG of them?

[mozo]

3 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Two of them look like corners, but I am struggling to remember “big” chances created by ST in the game. Anyone have any steer what the other five were and the xG of them?

I think at least one was a free kick delivery

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, mozo said:

I think at least one was a free kick delivery

Yeah I think you’re right, from the right hand side in the first half. 

[Robbored]

It was Twine who played the ball to Roberts to win the penalty - does that count?

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

It was Twine who played the ball to Roberts to win the penalty - does that count?

Robbo mate I know you’re getting on but confusing the little Japanese guy with “Yu” on the back of his shirt with Twine should really be raising some red flags.

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Robbo mate I know you’re getting on but confusing the little Japanese guy with “Yu” on the back of his shirt with Twine should really be raising some red flags.

It was Twine who played the ball to Hirakawa who played it to Roberts Silvio…….does that count?

[Shauntaylor85]

13 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Two of them look like corners, but I am struggling to remember “big” chances created by ST in the game. Anyone have any steer what the other five were and the xG of them?

Play him centrally with wingers and pace up top and he will continue to do that. 

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It was Twine who played the ball to Hirakawa who played it to Roberts Silvio…….does that count?

Ah, so you’re now admitting you were wrong and going back one further pass.
 

No it doesn’t.

[mozo]

24 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Yeah I think you’re right, from the right hand side in the first half. 

That's the badboy.

Surely the one played from the centre circle would have to be putting someone through on goal to be considered a chance creation? 

These stats don't seem to be Opta's best work.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, mozo said:

That's the badboy.

Surely the one played from the centre circle would have to be putting someone through on goal to be considered a chance creation? 

These stats don't seem to be Opta's best work.

Nah, definitely misleading. He created more noticeable chances against Derby.

Mind you, I’ll do a fiver with you that Liam references this stat in his next presser!

[GrahamC]

I’m assuming another one was the “invites a foul” challenge (looked like a dive to me) that won the free kick which he then put into the South Stand?

Shite bit of play all round, I thought, but at least I can tell which one is him & which one is Yu Hirakawa..

[TV Tom]

39 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It was Twine who played the ball to Roberts to win the penalty - does that count?

We’re you there?

[Robbored]

7 minutes ago, TV Tom said:

We’re you there?

Season cardholder Tom……..…

I’ll miss the next two home games tho as I’ll be in the Algarve……….

[Davefevs]

45 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Two of them look like corners, but I am struggling to remember “big” chances created by ST in the game. Anyone have any steer what the other five were and the xG of them?

1st half:

2 corners (Vyner and Knight)

1 free kick (Vyner)

Through ball to Mehmeti inside left channel to hit left footed at keeper.

Long pass into channel to Mehmeti to dribble into box and force diving stop at near post.

2nd half:

Breakaway and pass to Roberts (?) to cut inside onto right foot and deflect into keepers arms.

Trying to buy a foul, stumbles a pass to Hirakawa who shoots wide via deflection.

Total Expected Assists (xA) 0.54 if you’re interested.

 

 

 

 

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

1st half:

2 corners (Vyner and Knight)

1 free kick (Vyner)

Through ball to Mehmeti inside left channel to hit left footed at keeper.

Long pass into channel to Mehmeti to dribble into box and force diving stop at near post.

2nd half:

Breakaway and pass to Roberts (?) to cut inside onto right foot and deflect into keepers arms.

Trying to buy a foul, stumbles a pass to Hirakawa who shoots wide via deflection.

Total Expected Assists (xA) 0.54 if you’re interested.

 

 

 

 

Ta.

So, he created more when he was/wasn’t playing number 10 first half

The xA piece there is quite revealing and  backs up the evidence of eyes. It’s seven “chances” but each one is only 0.08 xG, so in reality, they aren’t great chances and as @mozo says, it’s not really Optas best work. 

[TV Tom]

32 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

1st half:

2 corners (Vyner and Knight)

1 free kick (Vyner)

Through ball to Mehmeti inside left channel to hit left footed at keeper.

Long pass into channel to Mehmeti to dribble into box and force diving stop at near post.

2nd half:

Breakaway and pass to Roberts (?) to cut inside onto right foot and deflect into keepers arms.

Trying to buy a foul, stumbles a pass to Hirakawa who shoots wide via deflection.

Total Expected Assists (xA) 0.54 if you’re interested.

 

 

 

 

Seems like pointless stats to me then 

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

admitting you were wrong

Progress 

[Simon bristol]

1 hour ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Play him centrally with wingers and pace up top and he will continue to do that. 

You would think the genius coach would have figured that out when he spent all summer trying to sign him!

[eardun]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Ta.

So, he created more when he was/wasn’t playing number 10 first half

The xA piece there is quite revealing and  backs up the evidence of eyes. It’s seven “chances” but each one is only 0.08 xG, so in reality, they aren’t great chances and as @mozo says, it’s not really Optas best work. 

Shhh - don’t tell Manning! 

[Loosey Boy]

Created the chance for Mehmeti in the 1st half with a lively through ball…..as others have said, play him behind the striker(s) with wide players and we will get the best out of him

[mozo]

I don't know if the stats back this up but I thought Twine was pretty industrious out of possession yesterday. Good closing down and breaking up play in transition.

[Merrick's Marvels]

Alistair Durden:

"Fans keep saying to me Scott Twine as a 10. Is it as simple as that? He starts wide today, 2nd half he goes and plays that 10, what's the thinking there? Is that his best position?"

LM:

"He was 10 first half in possession. He wasn't out of possession but in possession, if you watch the game back, he comes inside central, so Haydon kicking down the outside. Twiney likes to play from that Left side coming in onto his Right foot. It's definitely one of those that we have to give an element of freedom, to allow him to take up spaces between the lines, because for me he's one of the best in the division at it. So, again, I think he has to have that freedom but yet again he showed moments. I know he'll be frustrated with the free kick because he prides himself on that but, again, real good impact 2nd half and again you see little bits of relationship between him and Yu which, again, we're so early in the season and relationships take time to develop."

Short version = the lady's not for turning.

Baffling, especially as he himself says "real good impact 2ND HALF" - hello, wakey wakey!!

Also, why be so rigid that you allow your best attacking midfielder (in LM's opinion "one of the best in the division") only "an element" of freedom to find space between the lines? If he's that good, surely you'd allow him to find space across the pitch??

Never mind the fact the evidence of everyone's eyes confirms the team as a whole functions better when he does so?

And never mind the fact that playing him centrally makes it easier to build a relationship with our other creator, Hirakawa? How are those 2 supposed to combine consistently if one is stuck wide Left and the other wide Right?

And surely playing Twine centrally means we might also get more than just "moments" from him - a 90 minute performance wouldn't go amiss, including tracking back and standing up more often.

Edited Sunday at 14:42 by Merrick's Marvels

[Robbored]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Ah, so you’re now admitting you were wrong and going back one further pass.
 

No it doesn’t.

Right…….that invites the question of how many get the assist?  Does it have to be the player who passes the ball to the goalscorer if the build up to the goal involved several players?     
Should not all those involved get an assist as well?

Edited Sunday at 14:37 by Robbored

[Silvio Dante]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Right…….that invites the question of how many get the assist?  Does it have to be the player who passes the ball to the goalscorer if build up to the goal involved several players?     

Of course it’s the player who passes the ball.

Otherwise, logically, Max O’Leary could pass out from his area to Tanner who passes to Bird who passes to Knight who passes to Mehmeti who cocks it up who passes to Armstrong who scores and you could give the assist to Max O’Leary.

Its an imperfect system as you could have someone play a killer through ball and the assistor just do an easy square pass, but its the only way of measurement that’s not subjective and has been the same way ever since assists were measured……

[CodeRed]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Season cardholder Tom……..…

I’ll miss the next two home games tho as I’ll be in the Algarve……….

Our loss will be Portugal's gain!, 

 we're praying there's no WiFi in your accommodation 

[Malago]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

Season cardholder Tom……..…

I’ll miss the next two home games tho as I’ll be in the Algarve……….

Plymouth Algarve?

[ExiledAjax]

29 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Right…….that invites the question of how many get the assist?  Does it have to be the player who passes the ball to the goalscorer if the build up to the goal involved several players?     
Should not all those involved get an assist as well?

Have I got the stat for you.

Step forward Expected Threat:

Expected Threat (xT) is calculated by laying a 'value surface' over a football pitch to divide it into zones, where each zone has a value assigned to it based on how likely a goal is to be scored from that zone. Players can then be credited for moving the ball from zone to zone.

and Possession Value Models:

"Not all actions on the football pitch are equal. Some are more impactful than others.

Possession value models are a statistical framework used to objectively and quantitatively measure the value of each event on the pitch."

Enjoy some reading on the plane: https://statsbomb.com/soccer-metrics/possession-value-models-explained/

Edited Sunday at 15:06 by ExiledAjax

[Robbored]

15 minutes ago, Malago said:

Plymouth Algarve?

Praia da Rocha - not the one in Devon……….

[Robbored]

29 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Our loss will be Portugal's gain!, 

 we're praying there's no WiFi in your accommodation 

Been there twice before CR same hotel. The Wifi is fine. The Portuguese love football especially English football and Sky Sports is in pretty much ever hotel and bar.

I won’t be getting withdrawal symptoms.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Have I got the stat for you.

Step forward Expected Threat:

Expected Threat (xT) is calculated by laying a 'value surface' over a football pitch to divide it into zones, where each zone has a value assigned to it based on how likely a goal is to be scored from that zone. Players can then be credited for moving the ball from zone to zone.

and Possession Value Models:

"Not all actions on the football pitch are equal. Some are more impactful than others.

Possession value models are a statistical framework used to objectively and quantitatively measure the value of each event on the pitch."

Enjoy some reading on the plane: https://statsbomb.com/soccer-metrics/possession-value-models-explained/

I’ve not bought into xT….maybe I will in time, dunno.

I do like PSxG - post shot xG.  Shots in the corner worth more than shots down the middle…and only shots on target too.

Penalty xG = 0.76

Wells PSxG = 0.81…because he went high to the side.

Good gauge of finishers.  Kane scores highly in PSxG.

 

[TV Tom]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Right…….that invites the question of how many get the assist?  Does it have to be the player who passes the ball to the goalscorer if the build up to the goal involved several players?     
Should not all those involved get an assist as well?

Why do you do it?

[ExiledAjax]

29 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’ve not bought into xT….maybe I will in time, dunno.

I do like PSxG - post shot xG.  Shots in the corner worth more than shots down the middle…and only shots on target too.

Penalty xG = 0.76

Wells PSxG = 0.81…because he went high to the side.

Good gauge of finishers.  Kane scores highly in PSxG.

xT is a nice idea, but it's also a good example of a common issue with football stats. That issue being that most are measured by somehow trying to quantify how likely/much action X contributes to the team scoring. But, the further "away" X is from the moment of scoring, the more variables there are between X and the goal.

So to my mind xT really suffers from that as it's trying to qualify Vyner's pass out from the back to Bird in terms of how it might lead to a goal. It might do so in ten passes time, or in two, and you never know how many that will be.

So it's too far removed from the ultimate determining action. It's why it's not really caught on imo.

Post shot xG is a useful refinement of and already established and very much goal-adjacent statistic that has demonstrated use.

I've not got the figures but I'm going to assume that Anis, for all his 4+ shots per game, has a dreadful post-shot xG.

[Davefevs]

Anis:

 

 

[Harry]

Whilst I agree that the stats aren’t always the truth, and whilst I’d also agree that some of these ‘chances’ are somewhat dubious, this is based off of 9 years of stats which are assessed in exactly the same way. 
So it’s still a ‘true achievement’ in that respect. 
 

I agree that I wouldn’t have measured 7 chances for him yesterday but everyone else in the past 9 years have been judged and assessed in exactly the same manner. So yeah, fair play, well done Scott. But yeah, he can still do better. 

[Harry]

3 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Alistair Durden:

"Fans keep saying to me Scott Twine as a 10. Is it as simple as that? He starts wide today, 2nd half he goes and plays that 10, what's the thinking there? Is that his best position?"

LM:

"He was 10 first half in possession. He wasn't out of possession but in possession, if you watch the game back, he comes inside central, so Haydon kicking down the outside. Twiney likes to play from that Left side coming in onto his Right foot. It's definitely one of those that we have to give an element of freedom, to allow him to take up spaces between the lines, because for me he's one of the best in the division at it. So, again, I think he has to have that freedom but yet again he showed moments. I know he'll be frustrated with the free kick because he prides himself on that but, again, real good impact 2nd half and again you see little bits of relationship between him and Yu which, again, we're so early in the season and relationships take time to develop."

Short version = the lady's not for turning.

Baffling, especially as he himself says "real good impact 2ND HALF" - hello, wakey wakey!!

Also, why be so rigid that you allow your best attacking midfielder (in LM's opinion "one of the best in the division") only "an element" of freedom to find space between the lines? If he's that good, surely you'd allow him to find space across the pitch??

Never mind the fact the evidence of everyone's eyes confirms the team as a whole functions better when he does so?

And never mind the fact that playing him centrally makes it easier to build a relationship with our other creator, Hirakawa? How are those 2 supposed to combine consistently if one is stuck wide Left and the other wide Right?

And surely playing Twine centrally means we might also get more than just "moments" from him - a 90 minute performance wouldn't go amiss, including tracking back and standing up more often.

Great post. 
And that’s the thing isn’t it. 
Manning just bluffing it again. 
He’s a 10. He’s the 10 he’s wanted since he’s arrived here. He may well find himself drifting out to the left, but if he’s central he can also drift to the right too.  
Why stifle that? 
Being central and drifting to the left is very very different than starting left and drifting in, only to drift out again to then be able to come in onto his right foot. 
 

I’m getting quite bloody angry about this. 
I’m actually gonna waste my evening tonight and find a montage of Twines assists and goals in his career and I’m bloody certain just as many will come from right and central as they do from the left. 
 

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

6 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Nah, definitely misleading. He created more noticeable chances against Derby.

Mind you, I’ll do a fiver with you that Liam references this stat in his next presser!

Certainly will, I'm thinking the missed Armstrong header was that's a Twine delivery?

[steviestevieneville]

1 minute ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Certainly will, I'm thinking the missed Armstrong header was that's a Twine delivery?

Robert’s

[Silvio Dante]

9 minutes ago, Harry said:

Great post. 
And that’s the thing isn’t it. 
Manning just bluffing it again. 
He’s a 10. He’s the 10 he’s wanted since he’s arrived here. He may well find himself drifting out to the left, but if he’s central he can also drift to the right too.  
Why stifle that? 
Being central and drifting to the left is very very different than starting left and drifting in, only to drift out again to then be able to come in onto his right foot. 
 

I’m getting quite bloody angry about this. 
I’m actually gonna waste my evening tonight and find a montage of Twines assists and goals in his career and I’m bloody certain just as many will come from right and central as they do from the left. 
 

First off - great respect to the wasting evening on finding a montage to prove a point, that’s the kind of pettiness I can get on board with!

As for the comment, as I’ve said a few times, it was just bloody stupid by Liam. He made a change. A lot of us have been questioning his in game management and he did something that impacted the game. That he felt the need to try and be clever to Durden as opposed to just admitting what he’s done was just baffling. The worst that could have happened would have been people saying “about bloody time” but it would have been more in credit than not for the action.

It’s almost a deep rooted need not to admit he made a mistake and that he could be wrong. And it’s very in pattern with what I think we’ve seen so far - he’s got a huge inherent self belief. And that can be hugely positive. But, as here, it can also make you look like a bit of a nause when you’re denying what actually happened - which again, ironically, was as a result of a good thing you did!

[Merrick's Marvels]

6 minutes ago, Harry said:

Great post. 
And that’s the thing isn’t it. 
Manning just bluffing it again. 
He’s a 10. He’s the 10 he’s wanted since he’s arrived here. He may well find himself drifting out to the left, but if he’s central he can also drift to the right too.  
Why stifle that? 
Being central and drifting to the left is very very different than starting left and drifting in, only to drift out again to then be able to come in onto his right foot. 
 

I’m getting quite bloody angry about this. 
I’m actually gonna waste my evening tonight and find a montage of Twines assists and goals in his career and I’m bloody certain just as many will come from right and central as they do from the left. 
 

Saw some clips on here when we first took him on loan - was probably you who posted - but remember seeing plenty of Twine assisting others or having a dig himself from central areas when playing for MK Dons. Their coach at the time...??

In fact, I can't recall any where he starts Left and drifts centrally, although that might just be the way the clips are edited tbf.

At any rate, LM saying Twine prefers to start Left and drift in just makes it sound like he's abdicating responsibility again - "hey, it's not my fault, Twiney wants to start on the Left".

Get a grip man and own it yourself.

[Harry]

the MK season. 
Most contributions are from a central area. Some left, a couple right, but mainly central. And some quite deep central too. 
 

Newport and Swindon. The season before MK. 
 

Mostly central. Only 1 from the very far left flank. A good number from the right. But mostly central. 
 

I think the evidence is quite bloody clear. The bloke should be played centrally with the freedom to move either left or right. 
 

What a waste of £3.5m otherwise!! 

Edited Sunday at 20:36 by Harry

[Back of the Dolman]

6 hours ago, Robbored said:

Right…….that invites the question of how many get the assist?  Does it have to be the player who passes the ball to the goalscorer if the build up to the goal involved several players?     
Should not all those involved get an assist as well?

No

[Davefevs]

And look who’s second?

No set-pieces in his 5!

[mozo]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And look who’s second?

No set-pieces in his 5!

So where should we play him now?!

[Harry]

LM:

"He was 10 first half in possession. He wasn't out of possession but in possession, if you watch the game back, he comes inside central, so Haydon kicking down the outside. Twiney likes to play from that Left side coming in onto his Right foot. It's definitely one of those that we have to give an element of freedom, to allow him to take up spaces between the lines, because for me he's one of the best in the division at it. So, again, I think he has to have that freedom but yet again he showed moments. I know he'll be frustrated with the free kick because he prides himself on that but, again, real good impact 2nd half and again you see little bits of relationship between him and Yu which, again, we're so early in the season and relationships take time to develop."
 

So that was the quote from Manning. 
“First half he was a 10 when in possession”. 
Thanks to statmen like @Davefevs this can be proven to be a load of bull from Liam! As I suspected. 
This is the most “left” He’s played all bloody season. Again giving further credence to those who say Pring has been doing 2 jobs but Roberts had the security of an actual left winger (but that’s another debate) 

 

[Hxj]

On 22/09/2024 at 16:05, ExiledAjax said:

Possession value models are a statistical framework used to subjectively measure the value of each event on the pitch."

That sounds more realistic.

At college (many, many years ago) we spent 3 4 hour practical sessions proving that the worst measuring device in the world is any human.

 

Edited Monday at 23:00 by Hxj

[Silvio Dante]

8 hours ago, Harry said:

So that was the quote from Manning. 
“First half he was a 10 when in possession”. 
Thanks to statmen like @Davefevs this can be proven to be a load of bull from Liam! As I suspected. 

@Davefevs - this you?!?

[The Journalist]

On 22/09/2024 at 13:15, Silvio Dante said:

Ah, so you’re now admitting you were wrong and going back one further pass.
 

No it doesn’t.

He was unable to correctly identify himself when asked by Gary Johnson so you probably can’t really expect him to correctly identify players on a pitch, to be fair to him.

[Davefevs]

13 hours ago, mozo said:

So where should we play him now?!

Where he played second half!

Worth watching our equaliser, and Knight’s involvement in that on two phases.

And as for Twine and how he might set the press / block playing as a “proper 10” (as we know it), having watched the whole game back last night (much more palatable after a win than doing after Blackburn - bugger for punishment), Twine did pretty well in continuing to force Oxford to play out through Brown.

Whether it was that (ie Manning tactical plan) or not, in some ways it meant Roberts rarely had to worry about being overloaded like Pring has been in previous games.  Also Kioso (their RB) is hardly Cafu, so less if a worry anyway.  Roberts had an easier game as a result.

[BobBobBobbin]

On 22/09/2024 at 18:49, ExiledAjax said:

xT is a nice idea, but it's also a good example of a common issue with football stats. That issue being that most are measured by somehow trying to quantify how likely/much action X contributes to the team scoring. But, the further "away" X is from the moment of scoring, the more variables there are between X and the goal.

So to my mind xT really suffers from that as it's trying to qualify Vyner's pass out from the back to Bird in terms of how it might lead to a goal. It might do so in ten passes time, or in two, and you never know how many that will be.

So it's too far removed from the ultimate determining action. It's why it's not really caught on imo.

Post shot xG is a useful refinement of and already established and very much goal-adjacent statistic that has demonstrated use.

I've not got the figures but I'm going to assume that Anis, for all his 4+ shots per game, has a dreadful post-shot xG.

For build up phases I really like "packing" which calculates the amount of players a pass takes out of the game when breaking a line. I think the danger in any stat is trying to apply it to all phases. Specific stats show specific things; once you accept that and start to come to terms with what those pairings are, they become a little more meaningful imo. Trying to wrap everything up in xG/xT/xA isn't analysis. You've got to dig for the meaningful data or wait long enough for the data to start spitting out trends/anomalies.

Eye test first, supplemented by stats to confirm or contradict your view. Hence why I love Dave's analysis so much. It's not just numbers, He adds the pictorial view too. "Here's what I saw, here's what the numbers say about the outcome of this". 

[mozo]

59 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Where he played second half!

Worth watching our equaliser, and Knight’s involvement in that on two phases.

And as for Twine and how he might set the press / block playing as a “proper 10” (as we know it), having watched the whole game back last night (much more palatable after a win than doing after Blackburn - bugger for punishment), Twine did pretty well in continuing to force Oxford to play out through Brown.

Whether it was that (ie Manning tactical plan) or not, in some ways it meant Roberts rarely had to worry about being overloaded like Pring has been in previous games.  Also Kioso (their RB) is hardly Cafu, so less if a worry anyway.  Roberts had an easier game as a result.

I'm down with that 

Do Swansea have a Cafu? Is Josh Key any good or do you think we can unlock that side of the defence? 

Genuine question! I've never heard of the kid.

[Davefevs]

28 minutes ago, mozo said:

I'm down with that 

Do Swansea have a Cafu? Is Josh Key any good or do you think we can unlock that side of the defence? 

Genuine question! I've never heard of the kid.

@Harry is Josh Key, Cafu?  No, he’s Cafu, Dani Alves, Carlos Alberto, rolled into one!

Why did I tag, Harry?

Harry in long-time admirer of him, from his Exeter days, me later to the Key-fan-club.  Pre-Kane Wilson this is.  We missed our chance.

He’s decent, but Champ his level probably.  

 

[Harry]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Harry is Josh Key, Cafu?  No, he’s Cafu, Dani Alves, Carlos Alberto, rolled into one!

Why did I tag, Harry?

Harry in long-time admirer of him, from his Exeter days, me later to the Key-fan-club.  Pre-Kane Wilson this is.  We missed our chance.

He’s decent, but Champ his level probably.  

 

Yeah I like Key. He’s no Cafu though Mozo

Swans are playing 4 at the back currently. Key is a good RB but I think he’s a very good RWB. 
He gets forward well, dribbles well, crosses well. He’ll give Roberts more problems than Kioso did for Oxford. He’ll likely have the very unpredictable Ronald on the RW infront of him too. Roberts will need more protection this week than he had last week. 

[maxjak]

On 22/09/2024 at 15:35, Robbored said:

Right…….that invites the question of how many get the assist?  Does it have to be the player who passes the ball to the goalscorer if the build up to the goal involved several players?     
Should not all those involved get an assist as well?

Yep............Max O'Leary should most definitely be awarded an assist...........and how about the ball boy who retrieved the ball........and how about the member of the crowd who threw the ball to the ball boy?

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Yep............Max O'Leary should most definitely be awarded an assist...........and how about the ball boy who retrieved the ball........and how about the member of the crowd who threw the ball to the ball boy?

What an utterly obtuse reply………….

[maxjak]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

What an utterly obtuse reply………….

Thankyou Robbered..I will treasure that.