"This fan base"...who is right or wrong?

[noize]

So, i have seen the usual kind of posts starting this season. City look awful and people on here voice their opinions and concerns, and you ALWAYS have the counter arguments of "just give it time", "Just give the manager a chance", "its only 5 games", "we just won and you're talking negatively"  etc. etc.

What i realised is that this narrative has followed the same path for the last 8 years, so if you look back through the forum over the last 8 years since we got promoted, each season you will see many of the posts i have mentioned above, people raising concerns and then counter arguments about why we should be positive, which is how this season will also be.

My question is, doesn't the last 8 years now highlight the fact that the people who raised concerns and "negative" opinions were proven to be right? So every time someone has said "you fans should get behind the team, the manager, the results will come" etc.. well the results didn't come did they, and we have been a mediocre championship team for a long time.

I believe this season will be no different, we will win the odd game here and there and the fanbase will be expected to believe its the "turning point", and we will get to the end of the season again, with nothing, but along the way keep being told there is no need for concern and to have faith in the manager and the board.

[Robin101]

Totally agree. Does my head in that “things take time” and told to be patient when we’ve not been in the top division for 40 odd years.

The fact we’re so well supported in general baffles me to be honest, given our total lack of proper success, and I think it’s to our (the fan base’s) credit.

[Scrumpylegs]

I think that because this club has been so ‘stable’ (league position wise) now, for so long, that we tend to react in an extreme way to anything that looks like taking us outside this ‘comfort zone’ - either above or below. One day we will hit the heights of the Prem for sure, although when that will happen, who knows! Can you imagine how ballistic the place would go? In order to fully appreciate the highs you need to have also felt the lows. I think we’ve definitely got that bit covered now at least!

[eardun]

I suppose I want to give it time precisely because I don’t agree that we are looking awful at the moment. I’ve seen some positive performances and signs and I would expect our squad to get better with time together and more experience. 

[Silvio Dante]

26 minutes ago, Robin101 said:

Totally agree. Does my head in that “things take time” and told to be patient when we’ve not been in the top division for 40 odd years.

The fact we’re so well supported in general baffles me to be honest, given our total lack of proper success, and I think it’s to our (the fan base’s) credit.

I think the thing here is that the fans were undoubtedly showing patience under Pearson. It wasn’t always great but you could see the progress. And then when we got to a point where we could take the brakes off and invest to go to the next level, we appointed Liam - who for the qualities he has, isn’t a “continuity” coach.

(And avoidance of doubt - as I’ve said many a time if the board wanted to get rid of Pearson that was totally ok, that’s what they’re paid for)

So the problem we have given ourselves if you like is that we’ve suddenly done a handbrake turn from where things were progressing, to trying something else. But I also think that Liam, although backed, hasn’t been given the funds that clubs that buy the league do. 

Essentially, we’re being asked to accept more of the same but in a different way. The club haven’t gone balls in and really invested - all they’ve really done is change a mid table squad to another mid table squad through the Scott money. Add in that the one strong ethos we have had (academy) is unlikely to be used and you can see why it’s a bit dispiriting. 
 

It does ultimately come down to those above Liam, both on the strategy and the appointment. But there is a bit of “what’s really been the point of all that” going on here!

[handsofclay]

When we were last relegated from the Championship under SOD had a supporter of a team that finished mid-table said to me 'Well at least you don't follow a mediocre Championship team like me.' I would have given them a perishing look.

I wouldn't call staying in the Championship for years on end mediocre. I always tend to think we are far more likely to exit this division through relegation than promotion. But obviously I always live in hope. 

[bcfcredandwhite]

I think it’s because some people have their ‘favourite’ managers (ie Cotts and more recently Nige) and can’t stand the manner in which they were replaced. 
Everyone else who has come in (LJ, Holden and now Liam) had/have absolute mountains to climb in order to win those people over, because according to some they should never have been appointed in the first place and that is held against them. 

Edited Sunday at 14:21 by bcfcredandwhite
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[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I think it’s because some people have their ‘favourite’ managers (ie Cotts and more recently Nige) and can’t stand the manner in which they were replaced. 
Everyone else who has come in (LJ, Holden and now Liam) had/have absolute mountains to climb in order to win those people over, because according to some they should never have been appointed in the first place and that is held against them. 

I don’t think it’s having favourite managers.  Of course there will be managers you might identify with over another, but most on here just express their opinion based on what they see.  There will inevitably be a “comparison period” where the only benchmark is the bloke who was here before.  But over time, the comparison is with themselves, ie are things getting better, are they getting worse.  In LJ’s case, it was hard to tell at times, such was the boom and bust nature.  Plus you have to add in context like the financial side, and love it or hate it, it’s a big part of how you ought to (imho) base how good or bad you think the manager should do.

I expect Liam Manning to progress us up the league.  He’s had no financial constraints that ought to stop that.  The only financial constraints come about in the attempt of breaking into the playoff places where dominance is due to PPs.

At this point in time, a best part of a year, to quote @Silvio Dante:

“Essentially, we’re being asked to accept more of the same but in a different way. The club haven’t gone balls in and really invested - all they’ve really done is change a mid table squad to another mid table squad through the Scott money. Add in that the one strong ethos we have had (academy) is unlikely to be used and you can see why it’s a bit dispiriting”.

That’s a slightly below par performance for me.

That’s nothing to do with liking or disliking one manager over another.  It’s an objective opinion.  Others might have a different one.  I laid my cards on the table when Manning was appointed, and gave it initially a dozen matches to build a view.  Nobody objected to how I’d judge, all deemed fair, and I’ve just been building on that since.  And I did the same a bit later (March) in terms of whether I’d hold my hands up if Manning proved me wrong.  Again I put my cards on the table.  Again, nobody thought them unfair.

I don’t think 42 games into LM’s time here, that what I thought of Nige’s reign, of Deano’s reign, etc, has anything to do with it.  This is all about Liam.  It’s not as if I just come up with a view without explaining it / backing it up, is it…whether that be right or wrong.

[Bazooka Joe]

Neither are really right or wrong, but both sides of the debate passionately believe they're right.

Time will obviously tell which side is right.

However, I think the OP is correct. After the usual. inevitable, high hopes and expectations (top six, automatic promotion) at the start of the season. once reality hits, expectations and hopes are lowered staying up/mid-table becomes an acceptable outcome for many fans (and, seemingly, the management team/owner),

That's why we are considered by some/many to be a mediocre, unambitious club which plays safe within it's comfort zone.

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

It's strange.

On one level, I can see that a decade in the Championship and at times some good football, and some major scalps and Cup games. I do remember 1998 to 2007 and I also remember our slow decline all the way to the bottom of League One under Millen, McInnes, O'Driscoll.

Impressive Academy too and infrastructure is solid to strong.

However it feels like despite this we often back the wrong horse at the wrong time, we had an impressive top teams with Gould, NP and his team plus Tinnion in the Academy role.

Taking the manager out of it, are Tinnion and Jon Lansdown the correct people and is Marshall perhaps as Group CEO thinly spread.

Put in a sentence, it feels like we are doing fine but could and should be doing, striving for better. Striving for better at all times in all areas.

Edited Sunday at 16:01 by Mr Popodopolous

[The turtle]

Football, and a fans relationship with their football team is a curious concept. It's differ thing to different people.

In my case it has evolved as I got older , and moved away. Following city is my connection with home. It's fundamental to who I am. Watching the football team is just part of me. I know what I means to the people who go every week, I know the generations who've poured time , energy and love down to the next in line. Their kids , and then their kids. 

But what is city? For a long time, it was match day. Pre match , match , lost match. Away day epic adventures. But that was it. It was a pure love.

With modern day social media , it's a whole new world. The best peak was the goal celebrations.

Lately it's a feeling; the club gloss everything, the club are lying to me! It's the posts of endless positivity, it's bctv and it's city biased. It's front foot football. It's so many little things , it's as though the club somehow thinks I'm stupid. 

.......

However when it comes to match day I have nothing but love. Did I feel more for certain managers? Absolutely! 

G.johnson made me feel like it was us against the world , yet anything was possible.

D. Wilson just felt so close , he seemed to get city playing with a buzz... But oh that playoff final

Cotts.... He understood what made the fans tick. He understood our role , but also how the team had to play to get the reaction! It's why many felt strongly!

....

Conversely... I never really got Pearson fully, yet he spoke in a way that made you see his plan... His process. Where he was going , and what he saw. I can't say I found his football wonderful, but I also understood the bigger picture. And as there were so many youth players, it was learning on the job. It felt like something was being built , and a process was being bought into.

Manning, last season it was the "fake restart" that was the killer. But this season was a fresh start.

I'm willing to give him time, because he's quite obviously learning who he is at this level. How to operate, and what Bristol city is. I don't think his idea of football matches mine there are times where there is a whole sport in between but him being successful means more enjoyment for me. I have a vested interested in him doing well. So when he finally moves twine to the 10, then denies it, it grates. It's almost as though he doesn't want to be seen a fans populist manager.

His issue at the moment is .... There are 3 camps. Those that will defend him no matter , those that seem him as the face of the liars and incompetence above, and those who want what's best for city and wish him nothing but doing  well, but really don't have a reason to buy into HIM as a person yet.

Some fans use phrases well intended, while others use phrases as a points scoring exercise.

Comments like "get behind the team" it's always been team first and fans respond. This isn't ultra culture of noise regardless of game.

It's give me something. The fans stuck with the team because they deserved it. They played well,  didn't deserve to be behind . So the fans did not turn.

It was a lucky deserved win. If Harris scores , LM is in trouble! But that may just be the moment that turns things. And as a whole game, it was deserved.

I don't roll my opinion week to week. It's not I told you so based on a one game. Show me the best version of manning city.

And as for those above the team; stop treating the fans as though they are stupid is a great place to start.

 

 

[bexhill reds]

17 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I think it’s because some people have their ‘favourite’ managers (ie Cotts and more recently Nige) and can’t stand the manner in which they were replaced. 
Everyone else who has come in (LJ, Holden and now Liam) had/have absolute mountains to climb in order to win those people over, because according to some they should never have been appointed in the first place and that is held against them. 

This is valid to a point, but fans are fickle beasts, if Manning had come in and won 6 straight and you saw the improvement in our play and indeed players then I suspect he would not be under the critical eye of some elements of the fan base.

I think it is also fair to be unhappy with the dismissal of some previous managers, Cotts and Pearson clearly were removed because they'd irritated those upstairs, and naturally that makes life harder for their immediate replacements, especially in the case of Manning where some very clumsy communication from the senior hierarchy definitely set an expectation that he was unlikely to meet.

Of the other managers you mentioned Holden, LJ, I think their time had naturally come.

Returning to Manning, I think it is not unreasonable to look at his set up and style of play with an eye of criticality, he was and remains a very inexperienced punt as manager, albeit a coach with a impressive CV, perhaps he selection was helped by the ownership wanting to copy what Ipswich had done. He does appear to be stubborn in terms of team set up with his plan B merely being plan A with different players, and I'm not sure he is currently capable of changing tactics in a game or at least able to read how our opponents change things about. Our much heralded youth pathway seems to have been abandoned, and for all his coaching attributes I'm not seeing huge improvements in the players, plus more concerningly a few post match quotes of late have seemingly been blaming the players for results, that's never a good sign.
 

In summary I'm remain very much unconvinced that Manning is the solution to getting the club promoted, and I don't see that he is learning on the job, if he was then I'd perhaps be more patient. The win on Saturday has probably reduced the pressure a bit, but he needs to get the team playing better for what on paper are 2 very winnable fixtures coming up, or I suspect the noise will get louder.

 

[Robbored]

19 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

In summary I'm remain very much unconvinced that Manning is the solution to getting the club promoted, and I don't see that he is learning on the job, if he was then I'd perhaps be more patient. The win on Saturday has probably reduced the pressure a bit, but he needs to get the team playing better for what on paper are 2 very winnable fixtures coming up, or I suspect the noise will get louder.

I think many of are just as unconvinced BR - City scrapped three points on Saturday with Harris missing an open goal in front of his own fans. 

Not even the students of the game here on otib can work out what style Manning is trying to implement and the fact that he never plays two up top confuses many of us.

He’s starting to remind me of LJ in his pressers - waffle and hot air and saying nothing of any interest………..

The three points on Saturday have eased a little pressure and another win at Swansea live of Sky on Sunday  will ease it even more.

Edited Monday at 08:14 by Robbored

[exAtyeoMax]

19 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I think it’s because some people have their ‘favourite’ managers (ie Cotts and more recently Nige) and can’t stand the manner in which they were replaced. 
Everyone else who has come in (LJ, Holden and now Liam) had/have absolute mountains to climb in order to win those people over, because according to some they should never have been appointed in the first place and that is held against them. 

I don't think that's necessarily true. We were on a trajectory when we were promoted back to the Championship under Cotts, if he had been replaced with a decent manager/coach we had the squad to be promoted (like Ipswich). The wrong coach was employed and shed loads of money thrown at trying to justify their decision, which ultimately proved pointless.

To reduce that down to spite is disrespectful and a bit shallow, and a bit silly.  

[DaveInSA]

23 hours ago, Scrumpylegs said:

I think that because this club has been so ‘stable’ (league position wise) now, for so long, that we tend to react in an extreme way to anything that looks like taking us outside this ‘comfort zone’ - either above or below. One day we will hit the heights of the Prem for sure, although when that will happen, who knows! Can you imagine how ballistic the place would go? In order to fully appreciate the highs you need to have also felt the lows. I think we’ve definitely got that bit covered now at least!

I can tell you, it will be after the Lansdowns have sold up and effed off.

14 hours ago, The turtle said:

Football, and a fans relationship with their football team is a curious concept. It's differ thing to different people.

In my case it has evolved as I got older , and moved away. Following city is my connection with home. It's fundamental to who I am. Watching the football team is just part of me. I know what I means to the people who go every week, I know the generations who've poured time , energy and love down to the next in line. Their kids , and then their kids. 

But what is city? For a long time, it was match day. Pre match , match , lost match. Away day epic adventures. But that was it. It was a pure love.

With modern day social media , it's a whole new world. The best peak was the goal celebrations.

Lately it's a feeling; the club gloss everything, the club are lying to me! It's the posts of endless positivity, it's bctv and it's city biased. It's front foot football. It's so many little things , it's as though the club somehow thinks I'm stupid. 

.......

However when it comes to match day I have nothing but love. Did I feel more for certain managers? Absolutely! 

G.johnson made me feel like it was us against the world , yet anything was possible.

D. Wilson just felt so close , he seemed to get city playing with a buzz... But oh that playoff final

Cotts.... He understood what made the fans tick. He understood our role , but also how the team had to play to get the reaction! It's why many felt strongly!

....

Conversely... I never really got Pearson fully, yet he spoke in a way that made you see his plan... His process. Where he was going , and what he saw. I can't say I found his football wonderful, but I also understood the bigger picture. And as there were so many youth players, it was learning on the job. It felt like something was being built , and a process was being bought into.

Manning, last season it was the "fake restart" that was the killer. But this season was a fresh start.

I'm willing to give him time, because he's quite obviously learning who he is at this level. How to operate, and what Bristol city is. I don't think his idea of football matches mine there are times where there is a whole sport in between but him being successful means more enjoyment for me. I have a vested interested in him doing well. So when he finally moves twine to the 10, then denies it, it grates. It's almost as though he doesn't want to be seen a fans populist manager.

His issue at the moment is .... There are 3 camps. Those that will defend him no matter , those that seem him as the face of the liars and incompetence above, and those who want what's best for city and wish him nothing but doing  well, but really don't have a reason to buy into HIM as a person yet.

Some fans use phrases well intended, while others use phrases as a points scoring exercise.

Comments like "get behind the team" it's always been team first and fans respond. This isn't ultra culture of noise regardless of game.

It's give me something. The fans stuck with the team because they deserved it. They played well,  didn't deserve to be behind . So the fans did not turn.

It was a lucky deserved win. If Harris scores , LM is in trouble! But that may just be the moment that turns things. And as a whole game, it was deserved.

I don't roll my opinion week to week. It's not I told you so based on a one game. Show me the best version of manning city.

And as for those above the team; stop treating the fans as though they are stupid is a great place to start.

 

 

I sit in both those camps.

What I would love to see happen…

For a hardworking student of coaching such as Manning, actually to go back through the games he’s been in charge for and TAKE SOME ACTUAL learnings from them.