Time to stop calling for LM's head?

[reddogkev]

I'm interested to see what responses this gets after a win, granted not a fantastic win, but nonetheless 3 points.

Because I really can't see the point of calling for Liam to be sacked after every bad couple of results, despite how crap those games were.

If that was how football worked, gaffer's would be dropping like flies every couple of months.  What a club needs is stability and time for the coach to develop his style and see where it takes the team ... especially on the back of a massive summer of recruitment.

I would gladly give LM this full season and see what he manages, provided we don't look like a relegation candidate at any stage.

Now I'm not a fan of LM, I've always been a bit vanilla towards him, but I hate the calls the for him to be sacked so early in the season.

Let's give the man a decent chance this season to see if he can make us a top six team.  Come on Liam, let's Go!!!!!

Edited Tuesday at 11:12 by reddogkev

[Henry]

No.

[38MC]

Whilst you cannot see the point in calling for the manager's head after a few bad results*, it's a bit rich to then suggest no one calls for his head for a while on the back of what you accept was not a fantastic win.

*FWIW I completely agree, but I think Manning is now in the position where he's expected to produce results off the back of 2 transfer windows where he's been backed and added depth to the squad and has had a pre-season to work with the core squad.

It's also not just a few bad results, he's coming up to a year in role now. This is where he comes under the microscope because we should be showing signs of improvement. He's also coming in to this period with no real credit in the bank because there hasn't been improvement up until now. If he persists to play Twine on the left and doesn't get results, I think the fan backlash will increase. He could easily relieve some pressure by lining up as we finished the second half on Saturday. Because if we go to Swansea on Sunday and lose with Twine on the left and Williams in the middle, he's going to be right back to square one. 

Edited Tuesday at 11:44 by 38MC

[Silvio Dante]

I haven’t called for his head yet this season, purely because I think there needs to be a period where we see how the “on the grass” time with his players develops. 
 

(I’d still have sacked him last year)

So I agree with the general thrust that there does need to be a bit of time, but I in no way think it should be “give him the season”. We’ll know long before them if he’s learnt from prior errors, whether his game management improves, whether we look like an entertaining and potentially winning side. The early signs for me are that we’ve swapped one iteration of mid table to an alternate iteration at some expense, but I’m sticking to what I said at the start of the year - judgement call for me is post Leeds as that’s over a quarter of the season in and a full year in the job. 
 

(Either way absent something nuclear I don’t see him being sacked as his fate is pretty much linked to Tinnion and Lansdowns)

I do agree with the point though that he’s not got much credit in the bank. I said pre Oxford he probably needs iterative improvement and that’s where we probably still are.

[tin]

I’ve seen enough in nearly 50 games under Manning to know we’re more likely to go down than up. He’s wedded to his premeditated plans and has little if they don’t work IMO (the half-time sub made v Oxford paid off but was more of an outlier when you compare his “behaviours” in the prior games). I don’t see much evidence to warrant making the change last year, despite the large amounts of money spent. 

Despite all of that, I’m not calling for his head because my eyes are on those above him. Sacking a manager makes no difference when you consider it’s the same people making the same mistakes in the boardroom. The chances are that when he does go, it’ll be a similar profile that comes in. It won’t be anyone with top-flight experience here or abroad. It’s rinse and repeat, over and over again. The definition of madness.

Edited Tuesday at 11:57 by tin

[Bristol City mad man]

47 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

I'm interested to see what responses this gets after a win, granted not a fantastic win, but nonetheless 3 points.

Because I really can't see the point of calling for Liam to be sacked after every bad couple of results, despite how crap those games were.

If that was how football worked, gaffer's would be dropping like flies every couple of months.  What a club needs is stability and time for the coach to develop his style and see where it takes the team ... especially on the back of a massive summer of recruitment.

I would gladly give LM this full season and see what he manages, provided we don't look like a relegation candidate at any stage.

Now I'm not a fan of LM, I've always been a bit vanilla towards him, but I hate the calls the for him to be sacked so early in the season.

Let's give the man a decent chance this season to see if he can make us a top six team.  Come on Liam, let's Go!!!!!

I like your post and agree but i'm not quite as bullish as saying 'full season if not in relegation scrap' I think we need to always be within a certain amount of points of 6th place otherwise it will be hard for the likes of us to keep backing him for more time as we need to have 'hope' of a top 6 challenge even if say we end up 10th it's about keeping the 'hope' going this season!

[redsquirrel]

i will give him more time, he can have as long as he likes, even if half the ground was screaming for him to go,the  custodians would only blurt out thats its their club and they will do what they want.  plus,as already said,would anyone trust them with their next appointment? thats been done to death already.

we are stuck with him,best way to help is get behind him and make the players feel better.

 

[reddogkev]

1 hour ago, Henry said:

No.

Man of few words, eh Henry?  Made me laugh though!

[reddogkev]

34 minutes ago, Bristol City mad man said:

I like your post and agree but i'm not quite as bullish as saying 'full season if not in relegation scrap' I think we need to always be within a certain amount of points of 6th place otherwise it will be hard for the likes of us to keep backing him for more time as we need to have 'hope' of a top 6 challenge even if say we end up 10th it's about keeping the 'hope' going this season!

Do you know what Mad Man, yeah I agree with you, keep the club at least around 10th with the top six always in sight, with the squad we have that should be within our coach's ability.

In my mind I feel we should be good enough for that elusive top six finish, so I actually agree with what you've said more than my first post!

[The Coach]

Refer to my response to your last topic 

[David Brent]

These calls aren’t generally made off the back of simply a result but of course are going to be louder when we lose.

We just have to accept that, like all other clubs, we’re going to continue seeing these until we see real signs of progress. 

These calls don’t affect fans ability to get behind the team. If you want fans to stop then we just have to keep performing. 

[Monkeh]

1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

I'm interested to see what responses this gets after a win, granted not a fantastic win, but nonetheless 3 points.

Because I really can't see the point of calling for Liam to be sacked after every bad couple of results, despite how crap those games were.

If that was how football worked, gaffer's would be dropping like flies every couple of months.  What a club needs is stability and time for the coach to develop his style and see where it takes the team ... especially on the back of a massive summer of recruitment.

I would gladly give LM this full season and see what he manages, provided we don't look like a relegation candidate at any stage.

Now I'm not a fan of LM, I've always been a bit vanilla towards him, but I hate the calls the for him to be sacked so early in the season.

Let's give the man a decent chance this season to see if he can make us a top six team.  Come on Liam, let's Go!!!!!

No

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

What a club needs is stability and time for the coach to develop his style and see where it takes the team

I'd have sacked him had we lost to Oxford but as we just about got over the line then I'm sticking with my 10 games to draw any firm conclusions. 

I think for me there is some terminal deficiencies in his management that can't be solved by giving him time to develop his style. Things that have been much discussed on here such as his poor in game management and his belief that he can't impact a game from the sideline. That's always going to be a millstone round his neck. 

[mozo]

My general position is that he gets to finish the season and let's judge him on that. 

Obviously, there are doomsday scenarios whereby we lose way too many games and he has to be sacked, or unicorn scenarios whereby he wins so many games his contract has to be extended.

What puzzled me was that so many people were ready to give up hope and pull the trigger after 5 games.

Yes, they might be judging last season too (which was neither great nor terrible btw), but reactions will look pretty knee-jerk if we now come into some good form.

But ultimately we all have a right to respond how we want. 

[Swede]

I've seen enough already. I see someone who is quite set in his ways. Gets outdone by other managers who change their in game management.  I don't think he has the charisma to inspire any of us let alone the important ones, the players. I get the impression he loves the coaching side but doesn't enjoy the media side & matchday experience as much, which is, of course, part of being a head coach these days.

The conundrum is can he take us to a top ten/top six finish? i.e. the next level? I don't think he can. We are still an average second tier club and worryingly for him this is how our results to date have panned out & this is against teams I would expect a better return from. I say worryingly because cardiff are looking for a new manager & they are judging his results against teams like Burnley & Leeds. Imagine us playing those matches early season, I think he would've been under a lot more pressure than he is now. 

The problem of course is much more deep rooted and higher up as the next incumbent will be of a similar ilk & probably Oxford's current head coach.

I hope of course that he proves me wrong but I have seen little to date to make me alter my views.

[Big C]

You're never going to get a fan base that 100% behind a manager. So people need to accept that minority will always want his head

[One Team]

I’m no fan of his but have said since the start of the season he needs ten games. Let’s see where we are then. 

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, mozo said:

Yes, they might be judging last season too (which was neither great nor terrible btw), but reactions will look pretty knee-jerk if we now come into some good form.

Reactions should come with understanding what / if anything has changed, and why it might’ve changed.

And then whether it’s sustainable, ie form or new-norm.

I enjoyed the control (in the main) of Oxford.

I enjoyed the excitement of Millwall

I bloody hated Blackburn

etc.

[REDOXO]

My thoughts are that he needs a few good results and performances to get people fully behind him!

The idea we had bad results really brushes over the performances! Blackburn was simply awful and the second half against Derby terrible 

We were rubbish for the middle hour against Millwall and we have shipped goals as we seem to have forgotten how to defend all over the pitch. 
 

On Saturday we were all relieved, however the win came about after a world class, show stopping, video reel miss from a yard. 
 

I wish Mr Manning well, his success is our success, but in view of all the statements and money spent, he has a long way to go. 

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

At this point for me he's been well backed and under performing, I think if he reverts to form he will lose the Swansea game and I've got that as a draw.  If he shows that lack of flexibility he did in the post Christmas period last season he'll be seriously short of points come early December, if that's the case I'd be in the Manning out camp.

However that's a lot of ifs and the squad has good players I'll judge him in the future, still 4 more games for him to pick up 7 more points and stay on my good side.

Edited Tuesday at 14:02 by Lorenzos Only Goal

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'd say yes to the extent that a win generally buys a manager time. As does the change at HT ie recognised something and acted.

That is the case for any manager of any Club. What is the remedy? Winning games. Win games and all doubts are cured , win lots of games etc.

Needs to now be the start of something and if we see a more proactive with changes plus perhaps starting the side that started the 2nd half v Oxford that could be good.

Edited Tuesday at 14:07 by Mr Popodopolous

[mozo]

39 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Reactions should come with understanding what / if anything has changed, and why it might’ve changed.

And then whether it’s sustainable, ie form or new-norm.

I enjoyed the control (in the main) of Oxford.

I enjoyed the excitement of Millwall

I bloody hated Blackburn

etc.

Yes, but 99% of the time on OTIB they don't, and I include myself here 

[Mr Popodopolous]

47 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And then whether it’s sustainable, ie form or new-norm.

Adding to the sustainability point Dave, I would add- possibly replicating what you've said in a different way.

Under LJ we won a string of games between late December 2019 and late January, early February 2020. We can may be add Derby in mid February 2020 as well.

We were getting points but was it sustainable? Possibly not. By which I mean in hindsight, and possibly not even hindsight the underlying numbers didn't underpin the results and that can usually go one of two ways.

1) The confidence from winning sees the underlying Numbers and Performance data begun to catch up.

2) The Performances and Points start to diverge and Points stsrt to match Performance, ie losses.

Suppose 1a) Is that winning, a tactical tweak or 2 to build from a position of strength and help to make the results more sustainable is another option.

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, mozo said:

Yes, but 99% of the time on OTIB they don't, and I include myself here 

Yes, ditto.  That “might’ve” in my post was what gives us our individuality in our opinions.

[Robbored]

Whether any manager goes 95% of the time it’s because of poor results and two 3-0 defeats followed by a 2-1 win in no way suggests a poor run.

Manning will only be sacked if/when City start flirting with drop zone.

The fact that he lacks any charisma or interview skills and utterly fails to fill us fans with a sense of confidence means bugger all to LJ and BT.

 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Under LJ we won a string of games between late December 2019 and late January, early February 2020. We can may be add Derby in mid February 2020 as well.

We were getting points but was it sustainable? Possibly not. By which I mean in hindsight, and possibly not even hindsight the underlying numbers didn't underpin the results and that can usually go one of two ways.

From memory didn’t we win 4 games, all to nil, around Brownhill leaving, Wells signing, Pato coming back?  I certainly remember QPR (1-0) where we hung on for grim life, and Wigan (2-0) where we were awful but we scored the goals.

Sometimes you take the rough with the smooth.

Last season’s late season run, I thought we got points we didn’t deserve, but, we had games in the bad run where we didn’t get our rewards either.

+++++

As a really simplistic take I want LM to get us to a point post the international break (9 games) where we are having a “winning season”, ie more wins than losses.  Ideally I’d like his time here to be that too.  Currently 2,2,2 so far against 13,10,14 overall.

[Leveller]

Yes. It’s too early to say where we are going. The knee jerk reactions after the 3-0 defeats weren’t surprising, but probably from people who had already made their minds up. Personally I have only actually watched the three home games and was actually impressed by the “on the ball” football in each match. Of course the defending hasn’t been convincing, but we certainly outplayed Oxford and if all our matches followed that pattern I’d be very happy.

If we can avoid the bad performances seen at Derby and Blackburn, then he deserves to carry on. It remains to be seen if we can stabilise and be consistently competitive.

[Graham76]

Manning started to win me over after a good transfer window and positive start to the season, but the two horrendous back to back losses reminded me why I disliked him in the first place.  I saw nothing in the Oxford game to suggest it’s going to get any better 
 

 

[Sir Geoff]

3 hours ago, reddogkev said:

I'm interested to see what responses this gets after a win, granted not a fantastic win, but nonetheless 3 points.

Because I really can't see the point of calling for Liam to be sacked after every bad couple of results, despite how crap those games were.

If that was how football worked, gaffer's would be dropping like flies every couple of months.  What a club needs is stability and time for the coach to develop his style and see where it takes the team ... especially on the back of a massive summer of recruitment.

I would gladly give LM this full season and see what he manages, provided we don't look like a relegation candidate at any stage.

Now I'm not a fan of LM, I've always been a bit vanilla towards him, but I hate the calls the for him to be sacked so early in the season.

Let's give the man a decent chance this season to see if he can make us a top six team.  Come on Liam, let's Go!!!!!

So you're giving him a free pass for last season then ?

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

3 hours ago, reddogkev said:

I'm interested to see what responses this gets after a win, granted not a fantastic win, but nonetheless 3 points.

Because I really can't see the point of calling for Liam to be sacked after every bad couple of results, despite how crap those games were.

If that was how football worked, gaffer's would be dropping like flies every couple of months.  What a club needs is stability and time for the coach to develop his style and see where it takes the team ... especially on the back of a massive summer of recruitment.

I would gladly give LM this full season and see what he manages, provided we don't look like a relegation candidate at any stage.

Now I'm not a fan of LM, I've always been a bit vanilla towards him, but I hate the calls the for him to be sacked so early in the season.

Let's give the man a decent chance this season to see if he can make us a top six team.  Come on Liam, let's Go!!!!!

Judging by his interviews, I'm fairly sure that Manning can't "go"!

[LondonBristolian]

4 hours ago, reddogkev said:

I'm interested to see what responses this gets after a win, granted not a fantastic win, but nonetheless 3 points.

Because I really can't see the point of calling for Liam to be sacked after every bad couple of results, despite how crap those games were.

If that was how football worked, gaffer's would be dropping like flies every couple of months.  What a club needs is stability and time for the coach to develop his style and see where it takes the team ... especially on the back of a massive summer of recruitment.

I would gladly give LM this full season and see what he manages, provided we don't look like a relegation candidate at any stage.

Now I'm not a fan of LM, I've always been a bit vanilla towards him, but I hate the calls the for him to be sacked so early in the season.

Let's give the man a decent chance this season to see if he can make us a top six team.  Come on Liam, let's Go!!!!!

He's bought himself sometime with a win - I think a pressure would have really been on with a defeat.

And I certainly don't intend to automatically jump back to Manning being sacked next time we lose a game. But, by the same token, I'm not going to claim I trust him to take us to the top six because he's won a game.

The issue for me is the cyclical nature. I was open to giving Manning a chance at the start but our run between January and March made me think he'd not be able to turn it around last season. Obviously I was wrong and we produced a great run of form until the defeat against Stoke on the final day.

This season, he's been backed significantly after an eleventh placed finish last time. We started brightly but looked abject against Derby and Blackburn. It's great we beat Oxford but, for Manning to convince me for the long term, I need to see that we look like a team ready to improve on eleventh place and we need to do that consistently. We've had seasons before where we've had managers that have good streaks and bad streaks but always get a result at the right time to convince the fans that maybe, just maybe, we've turned a corner. We need to move past that and learn from it. 

Ultimately, right now after that win, it would take a poor run of form indeed for me to call for a managerial change until at least ten games in.

But, whilst my head says we should give Manning time to prove he can do the job, in my heart I ultimately feel that he's not going to turn it round and that he's not the manager to take us up. I could of course be wrong but ultimately, whilst I'd not call for his head right now, I think we'll end up regretting persisting for him as long as we do. 

Happy for this post to be quoted back at me when we're mathematically confirmed as league winners at the end of April. 

Edited Tuesday at 15:19 by LondonBristolian

[noize]

Problem is, you could appoint Pep, but how well would he perform with Tinnion and the Lansdowns? I dont just think Liam is necessarily the problem, or potential problem i know its still early days. I think its the whole of BCFC and how its run. I dont think a simple manager change would particularly make much difference?

When they put Nigel in and he wanted to do it his way, they didnt like it and he was gone, so where do you go from there?

[The turtle]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Whether any manager goes 95% of the time it’s because of poor results and two 3-0 defeats followed by a 2-1 win in no way suggests a poor run.

Manning will only be sacked if/when City start flirting with drop zone.

The fact that he lacks any charisma or interview skills and utterly fails to fill us fans with a sense of confidence means bugger all to LJ and BT.

 

At half time.... Every social media place was pointing out , bottom 3 at HT ... If that's not flirting with it , what is? (Yeah it's too soon)

In FBC, there was talk of Oxford manager lost 3 in a row away, so should be sacked! It misses the point. Context is everything.

Not one person would look at Oxford and think their manager is in any form of danger. It's laughable. They would probably have to be 6 points from safety for that ever to actual be a convo, and even then It would be harsh!!! Very harsh!

At city that is not the case. LM inherited a strong position, a strong squad! Now why did he? Because those in charge felt more was possible - with last season's team.

Well, November to march was mostly brutal last year. Some good results , some sprinkles but it was mostly brutal. Why?? Because a pre season was needed? Well you can promise the future , but eventually the future shows up to cash in its loan.

Cue pre season .... While different managers get backing in different ways. This summer felt different.

2 new strikers for a start ,

A high value number 10, a back up 10 also.

Additional reinforcements everywhere.....

Wells - sub

Conway gone - with the implication we've upgraded 

Bell isn't even part of the convo even when fit.

If you say

Bird , yu , Armstrong ,twine all new players, all considered upgrades

It just feels like a lot of changes to get his players, to play football he wants!!

To start the season with high expectations, expectations the club created. then winning 1 in 5, with two 3 nils .. you're going to be under pressure.... It's absolutely not hitting the ground running, and patience requests wears thing when that was used last season.

Time on the grass you say? More work in international breaks? Well, see Blackburn away!! Fans have memories.

The club told us of their expectations, the fans are simply holding them too it.

Yet, i Maintain, in all games bar Blackburn there have been shoots of hope , Oxford was a deserved win.

But in the 5 games so far! This is NOT the Bristol city we had been educated to expect.

Results is only part of it, stats a part  of it. But mostly it's what you see and how it makes you feel!

The formation twine oddity, the players out of form not being dropped soon enough, the rather off decisions like not starting Armstrong at Blackburn (as @Davefevs pointed out, it seemed done for the wrong reasons), the lack of perceived game management, the feeling we are predictable (think about how shocked you were when wells was the sub). The refusal to play 2 up top ever.

This was not what was expected, the way the cogs of the team gel is short of a where we expected to be! This is beyond results. It just feels off.

Trust the process is a great expression, but it's got to feel like the process trusts itself; as when it doesn't. You either fall to pieces like derby away or you get goals like the max error.

There is something there, there is hope , it is there in sprinkles . But it's time for a manning side to put a serious run of games together. Winning and playing well. Not just over the line. Not playing well but losing. Winning and playing well *(yes I know you can't win every game) That is after all the point in him being here.

 

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 15:51 by The turtle

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, The turtle said:

At half time.... Every social media place was pointing out , bottom 3 at HT ... If that's not flirting with it , what is? (Yeah it's too soon)

In FBC, there was talk of Oxford manager lost 3 in a row away, so should be sacked! It misses the point. Context is everything.

I was pretty content at h-t (other than the scoreline).  Thought we’d played well enough to be ahead.  So happy to see how the second 45 played out.  I didn’t look at the table…couldn’t get any signal on my phone (usually I’m fine)

Really?  FBC said that?  Agree, that’s Laughable, and that’s being polite.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

From memory didn’t we win 4 games, all to nil, around Brownhill leaving, Wells signing, Pato coming back?  I certainly remember QPR (1-0) where we hung on for grim life, and Wigan (2-0) where we were awful but we scored the goals.

Sometimes you take the rough with the smooth.

Last season’s late season run, I thought we got points we didn’t deserve, but, we had games in the bad run where we didn’t get our rewards either.

+++++

As a really simplistic take I want LM to get us to a point post the international break (9 games) where we are having a “winning season”, ie more wins than losses.  Ideally I’d like his time here to be that too.  Currently 2,2,2 so far against 13,10,14 overall.

From memory we can either judge it as x in a row, 4 in 5 or similar, we also bear Derby but didn't keep a clean sheet.

I made a thread sometime in that period I think about Building from a Position of Strength..that aside we beat Luton 3-0, thrashed by Brentford- an aging Williams in a back 4 playing medium or abode line is crazy. Then Wigan, Barnsley, QPR and Reading all by one Goal but the performances weren't altogether convincing taken as a sample.

5 wins in 6, all wins with Clean Sheets yet it felt anything like a top Championship side was my recollection. Plus for the money laid out and yes a range of International and recent top flight players, the cohesion, control or lack of was shocking.

My hope was in that period, that the wins would buy time to tweak the side further for more consistent performances- as in confidence and time...vs Birmingham post the Window we scored after 1 or 2 minutes but lost 3-1 at Home on a Friday night.

Agree on the rest of your post.

[RedLionLad]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Whether any manager goes 95% of the time it’s because of poor results and two 3-0 defeats followed by a 2-1 win in no way suggests a poor run.

Manning will only be sacked if/when City start flirting with drop zone.

The fact that he lacks any charisma or interview skills and utterly fails to fill us fans with a sense of confidence means bugger all to LJ and BT.

 

It has nothing to do with Lee Johnson. Get him out of your head !!!

[Kid in the Riot]

40 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

But, whilst my head says we should give Manning time to prove he can do the job, in my heart I ultimately feel that he's not going to turn it round and that he's not the manager to take us up. I could of course be wrong but ultimately, whilst I'd not call for his head right now, I think we'll end up regretting persisting for him as long as we do.

The likelihood is Manning will fail and be sacked, because that is what happens to the vast majority of managers that work under the Lansdowns. So, it's nearly nailed on. Even in the Championship, what % of managers make the January transfer window? Isn't it usually less than half? So yeah, without even knowing our league position this season, if you were going to have a bet you'd put your chips on a sacking. It is more likely than not Manning will be fired either this season or next, having failed. Which brings us on nicely to....

20 minutes ago, noize said:

Problem is, you could appoint Pep, but how well would he perform with Tinnion and the Lansdowns? I dont just think Liam is necessarily the problem, or potential problem i know its still early days. I think its the whole of BCFC and how its run. I dont think a simple manager change would particularly make much difference?

The hierarchical set-up behind the scenes of Tinnion, JL, Marshall and the other thirtysomething finance guy is basically League Two set-up. I expect there are clubs in the National League who have more experienced, intelligent DoF's, chairpersons, and CEO's. 

Someone like Manning is evidently not the finished article. He was brought in because he was deemed to have potential or 'upside' as people in football have suddenly started calling this kind of thing. 

But in order to enhance that potential you need experienced head/s around him to nurture that, and client an environment that he can succeed in. I don't think anyone can seriously think that we have the kind of set-up that is going to allow a young, aspiring coach to thrive in.

Which is why older head managers seem to succeed more at City. But then we know those relationships with the Lansdowns don't last long either. And round and round we go... 

[Offside]

I’m ambivalent towards Manning. I find him completely uninspiring. 

What concerns me more than the successive 3-0 away defeats (and our poor away form) is decisions like not playing Twine centrally and the tediousness of lots of our football. I’ve not seen much since Manning was appointed that makes me optimistic we’ll challenge for promotion, which was his brief.

On the other hand, I’m excited by some of our signings (like Fally, Yu, Armstrong). But can Manning find a system to the best out of them? Not so sure. He’s also in the position of having a bigger squad and having the selection dilemmas which comes from that  

Like other posters have said, the set-up at the club doesn’t inspire confidence that we can push on from being a mid-table side. Under NP and Gould it felt like we were in safe hands. Now it feels much more amateurish. 

[Robbored]

19 minutes ago, RedLionLad said:

It has nothing to do with Lee Johnson. Get him out of your head !!!

Well spotted RLL - a typo on my part. 

It’s the ‘J’ in both initials that led to my error………

[1960maaan]

I am sticking to, or at least trying to stick to my Review after 10 games plan . 2nd half at Derby and Blackburn really makes it hard. 

But a quick look at our games and we could have easily gone to Derby on the back of 3 wins. Then we bossed the first half and should have been ahead, though I did say to a mate we needed to be 2-0 to win. Then 2nd half and Blackburn we were poor. Oxford I thought we played well, gave them a few chances and missed some of our own, but deserved to win. 
There have been decisions I've questioned , things that have really annoyed me , then there have been signs of some good football and real promise. 
I think 10 games is fair, and then to even think of him going is pointless as Steve and Jon have backed him and themselves into a corner. They will give him every chance , which means we would have to have a car crash of a season to get there .

[DaveInSA]

I would never have given him the job - :laugh:. So I wouldn’t be talking about sacking him in the present, today.

But I don’t run BCFC.

If he can’t sort out the defence. If he doesn’t realise our BEST set up in the first half. If he can’t react in-game when we’re being outplayed. If he can’t see these things. And he’s a professed student of the game, who works oh so very hard til 3am every day. Then what does he actually do?

If he can’t see that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results isn’t working then what can you do?

I want to see us do well. But unfortunately unless Manning can learn and adapt. He will fail. And by failing I mean be outside the top 10, because that’s where I expect us to be. I would have sacked him after Blackburn. 

[95red]

Shown me nothing  yet that he's  taking us any  further  than Pearson would have .See where we are Xmas.  

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I was pretty content at h-t (other than the scoreline).  Thought we’d played well enough to be ahead.  So happy to see how the second 45 played out.  I didn’t look at the table…couldn’t get any signal on my phone (usually I’m fine)

Really?  FBC said that?  Agree, that’s Laughable, and that’s being polite.

Eeeek, just listened.

@NcnsBcfc I’ve got no idea what you were saying that warranted that response from top right corner of the screen.  Every week, whatever the relevance of the subject matter, he has to bring his agenda based comment in about people with supposed agendas!

[Red Army 79]

The Club has set the bar now. Pearson was sacked after 15 games being 15th in the table after dropping from about 11th to 15th due to the defeat to Cardiff. 

Our chairman feels that the squad that Manning inherited was a top 6 team. They have since  invested around 12m in that top 6 team.

If Manning isn’t in the top 10 after 15 games I expect him to be sacked. 
 

 

[Dastardly and Muttley]

No, I’m done. 
We were told the aim was to be 10 points better off. Going game by game, we’re two points worse off from the equivalent games so far. This excludes promoted teams, obv. If you swap them like for like with the relegated teams, we’re three points worse off.

We’ve also lost our defensive stability and the same issues which have been affecting the squad since the start are still there.

An Armstrong goal (which probably should have been saved) and a debatable penalty don’t change things.

I’m pleased he made changes and improved things in the second half, that’s a step in the right direction. I’m pleased he tried something different with the subs.

I’m still convinced he’s not the right man for the job and can see him being sacked at the international break.

[kmpowell]

https://y.yarn.co/e589cfa2-867c-49a9-8c63-0f920e33ed86.mp4?v=0

Edited Tuesday at 18:37 by kmpowell

[RedM]

I still think we are papering over the cracks, and not just regarding Manning either. The win has brought them all a bit of breathing space, but that's all it is.

Let's see if we see more of Yu. And perhaps Twine being used effectively. Then let's see.

[GBF]

I want every City manager to succeed. Unfortunately LM keeps playing players out of position  and IMO is clearly out of his depth.  I don’t believe he will succeed and the longer he is here the more damage will be done. I concluded on his appointment after the Blackburn game and just want someone better

[redkev]

He maybe a good coach but his tactical awareness during the 90 mins and ability to see things unfolding in front of him are as poor as any city manager I can remember , 

all good and well when we’re doing ok but when we have are backs to the wall we might aswell have a telephone box on the touch line 

[Engvall’s Splinter]

If he starts Twine on the left, Knight in the more advanced “10” position and Yu is on the bench for the Swansea fixture - I’d sack him there and then. 
 

 

[Slack Bladder]

My problem with LM is he's a one trick donkey. He believes if it's not working, then it's the players fault, not the system. This is why we have so many like for like subs. This for me will be his ultimate downfall.

Against Oxford, I think 99% of us knew that starting line up was never going to be balanced, though miraculously we did create a few chances. Bringing on Yu at halftime, moving Knight back for the departed Williams, Anis out onto the left and Twine in the position he was bought for gave that team balance without changing the system. It's what more or less most of us expected the starting eleven to be.

Will he stick with this formula or will he revert back to an unbalanced side. I really don't know. But there will be games going forward where his 'in game' management will be thoroughly tested and it's these games where i'm not sure his ability will stand up. I'll have to wait and see.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I kinda am still thinking 15 Games should be decisive but who knows.

15 Games will be akin to a full League season in charge given that he arrived after 15 Games last season.

That is a reasonable barometer. Position, Points, GD Idk? Last time 11th, 40% Win Ratio, 1.4 PPG, GD 0..

What would be okay this time?

Edited Tuesday at 20:07 by Mr Popodopolous

[FNQ]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

What would be okay this time?

Performances, consistent performances. Results will look after themselves. 

[mozo]

2 hours ago, GBF said:

I want every City manager to succeed. Unfortunately LM keeps playing players out of position  and IMO is clearly out of his depth.  I don’t believe he will succeed and the longer he is here the more damage will be done. I concluded on his appointment after the Blackburn game and just want someone better

This is the kind description that confuses me (no offence!)

Liam Manning has won 14 games as City manager now and has a truly mid table points tally in that time. 

So, to be described as out of his depth, are you saying you expect us to be pushing for promotion, and so by that standard he's out of his depth?

Surely, he's clearly capable of managing at this level? Isn't the question more whether he will be able to take us on an upward trajectory?

[One man went....]

6 hours ago, RedLionLad said:

It has nothing to do with Lee Johnson. Get him out of your head !!!

Surprised he didn't blame GJ. 

[RedLionLad]

2 hours ago, One man went.... said:

Surprised he didn't blame GJ. 

There's still plenty of time...

[Engvall’s Splinter]

7 hours ago, mozo said:

This is the kind description that confuses me (no offence!)

Liam Manning has won 14 games as City manager now and has a truly mid table points tally in that time. 

So, to be described as out of his depth, are you saying you expect us to be pushing for promotion, and so by that standard he's out of his depth?

Surely, he's clearly capable of managing at this level? Isn't the question more whether he will be able to take us on an upward trajectory?

Manning walked in to a very mid table and stable side - he has since had a very poor run, a decent end of season run and then ripped up the copybook and spent around 10m quid on players. Since doing so, results remain varied and performances hit & miss. I have longterm doubts around his character, abilities and man management. Time will tell whether he will deliver what the board had suggested upon his appointment. 

[Oh Louie louie]

When we went 1 down nobody's head dropped or nobody hid, they are trying for him no doubt about that, credit to him where its due.

[temp]

7 hours ago, mozo said:

This is the kind description that confuses me (no offence!)

Liam Manning has won 14 games as City manager now and has a truly mid table points tally in that time. 

So, to be described as out of his depth, are you saying you expect us to be pushing for promotion, and so by that standard he's out of his depth?

Surely, he's clearly capable of managing at this level? Isn't the question more whether he will be able to take us on an upward trajectory?

What exp has LM of championship management?

Our chaiman said we should be pushing for top six

We have bought 2nd class manager/players in and have been told we are going for a 1st class seat

Tinman is running the show and has his feet well under table, he failed last time and will fail this time

We continue to sell our best players, the last one to a championship rival f.f.s, (the latest to reject a mediocre club for an ambitous club) and all this selling has got us......nowhere

Could be in trouble this season though as we have no multimillion pound players to cash in on and have a defence that falls asleep

[redkev]

58 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

When we went 1 down nobody's head dropped or nobody hid, they are trying for him no doubt about that, credit to him where its due.

Apart from the first 25 mins at Derby where we should have been out of sight they certainly didn’t seem to be trying for him at Derby or Blackburn well beaten in both games in the end , so no credit there I’m afraid , I keep saying when his pre game plans start to go out of the window other managers seem a step ahead of him during game time , 

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Manning walked in to a very mid table and stable side - he has since had a very poor run, a decent end of season run and then ripped up the copybook and spent around 10m quid on players. Since doing so, results remain varied and performances hit & miss. I have longterm doubts around his character, abilities and man management. Time will tell whether he will deliver what the board had suggested upon his appointment. 

Yeah, I don't have any issue with your doubts and concerns, I was just pointing out the bit about his results being mid table and therefore not necessarily 'out of his depth'.

1 hour ago, temp said:

What exp has LM of championship management?

Our chaiman said we should be pushing for top six

We have bought 2nd class manager/players in and have been told we are going for a 1st class seat

Tinman is running the show and has his feet well under table, he failed last time and will fail this time

We continue to sell our best players, the last one to a championship rival f.f.s, (the latest to reject a mediocre club for an ambitous club) and all this selling has got us......nowhere

Could be in trouble this season though as we have no multimillion pound players to cash in on and have a defence that falls asleep

Again, I understand your criticism there.

Manning came in without Championship experience, and he's now on about 40 games. 

He's shown he can tick along at a very mediocre win one, draw one, lose one average. 

If the expectation is to finish 12th, he looks pretty good for it. If we're hoping for top 6, we'll need to see an improvement. We'll also need all these players with potential to progress quickly.

[harvey54]

I still want him gone. He'd done nothing to warrant getting the job in the first place and in my opinion was a backward step after Pearson. He's Johnson Junior Mark 2. 

Tactically one dimensional and full of 'BS' and soundbites. 

The lack of front foot football and dire losses every few games suggest that we're not going to be challenging for promotion any season soon. 

Get rid, soon as and go for Moyes

[Kid in the Riot]

9 hours ago, mozo said:

This is the kind description that confuses me (no offence!)

Me too. I assume it's just hyperbole.

Manning took over a lower midtable finishing team and finished 11th last season. His last 16 games (ok, I'm being selective, but it represents a third of a season of 'form') we've picked up 26 points. That's around 74 points if replicated over a whole season. 

None of this suggests he is dramatically "out of his depth" or a complete misfit at this level. 

Will he ultimately succeed here? For the reasons I've outlined in my earlier post, probably not. 

Let's be honest too. He's intrinsically linked in the minds of fans with the sacking of Pearson and the return to frontline duty of Jon Lansdown. And whether consciously or subconsciously, some fans are still not over that episode.

And a new chapter won't begin until one, some, or all, of Manning, Tinnion and JL are gone. 

[Swede]

15 hours ago, noize said:

Problem is, you could appoint Pep, but how well would he perform with Tinnion and the Lansdowns? I dont just think Liam is necessarily the problem, or potential problem i know its still early days. I think its the whole of BCFC and how its run. I dont think a simple manager change would particularly make much difference?

When they put Nigel in and he wanted to do it his way, they didnt like it and he was gone, so where do you go from there?

Absolutely spot on. The next appointment will be a mannequin Manning and so on rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. The hierarchy obviously believe that this is the way to go, with complete control. They firmly believe it. Time will tell whether they are correct with identifying their player profiles. I really hope they're right & I have egg on my face and eat humble pie but I just don't think the current head coach has the cahunas to get us to that next level.

I am happy for someone with more of an insight like a Spudski, Silvio, Dave Fevs or GrahamC to point out what I am not seeing and enlighten me.

Very happy to be proved wrong and celebrate making the playoffs this season.

[alexukhc]

Think just leave it for now, constant upheaval, got his own players in now, his own team, we constantly want someone’s head gone yet the whole ground we chant his name and put banners around the ground saying it’s his army

[Henry]

1 hour ago, Swede said:

Absolutely spot on. The next appointment will be a mannequin Manning and so on rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. The hierarchy obviously believe that this is the way to go, with complete control. They firmly believe it. Time will tell whether they are correct with identifying their player profiles. I really hope they're right & I have egg on my face and eat humble pie but I just don't think the current head coach has the cahunas to get us to that next level.

I am happy for someone with more of an insight like a Spudski, Silvio, Dave Fevs or GrahamC to point out what I am not seeing and enlighten me.

Very happy to be proved wrong and celebrate making the playoffs this season.

History tells us they generally don’t go for the same type twice in a row. They would more likely go for Mowbray type than another young un.

[Silvio Dante]

1 hour ago, Swede said:

Absolutely spot on. The next appointment will be a mannequin Manning and so on rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. The hierarchy obviously believe that this is the way to go, with complete control. They firmly believe it. Time will tell whether they are correct with identifying their player profiles. I really hope they're right & I have egg on my face and eat humble pie but I just don't think the current head coach has the cahunas to get us to that next level.

I am happy for someone with more of an insight like a Spudski, Silvio, Dave Fevs or GrahamC to point out what I am not seeing and enlighten me.

Very happy to be proved wrong and celebrate making the playoffs this season.

I think in some ways we are guilty as a fanbase of oversimplifying via Old Experienced Coach = stands up for themselves vs Young relatively inexperienced coach = puppet.

FWIW I don’t, and have never, seen Liam as a mannequin coach and doing so probably misses the point a little.

If I take a step back then the following are true:

- Liam is a very single minded person. I’ve said a few times that he has huge belief in what he does which is both positive and negative so when people say that he doesn’t have the infrastructure to help him through then I think it’s also fair to say that whenever we’ve discussed this, the conclusion of most has been he wouldn’t want/accept the contrarian. None of us can say that for certain, but I think the evidence is that he knows his own mind and isn’t easily for turning/influencing

- He has been given a decent amount of money and players in order to facilitate his aims. I don’t think anyone is going to say that Lansdown and Tinnion are fully competent people, but by the same token as a head coach he’s come in to a decent mid table squad and been given the resources he wants. Are they parachute resources? Nope. But they are more than decent considering the base he already had.

The simplistic thing for me here is that two things can be simultaneously true; it can be a good thing if the hierarchy goes, but it can also be the case that the hierarchy aren’t the sole reason Liam succeeds or fails. If they were sat on the bench telling him what to do or denying him funds, then there is a case for that. But neither of those things are true.

We have a coach who knows his own mind and believes in his processes. He’s been backed by the board, whether we like them or not. If he succeeds or fails, it won’t be because he’s a puppet, it’ll be based on his own ability and anything else is an easy way out.

Do I think it’s anything to do with “cahunas” - nope. If anything there is an argument Liam has manipulated less intelligent people than him (JL/BT) to get exactly what he wants as he knows if he fails it makes them look daft. But have I seen any evidence ability wise he will really progress the club? Not as yet.

Now, if you want to have a discussion as to whether he was an appropriate “fit” and we needed to spend £10m to stand still (seemingly) then that’s another conversation!

 

[Alessandro]

10 hours ago, mozo said:

This is the kind description that confuses me (no offence!)

Liam Manning has won 14 games as City manager now and has a truly mid table points tally in that time. 

So, to be described as out of his depth, are you saying you expect us to be pushing for promotion, and so by that standard he's out of his depth?

Surely, he's clearly capable of managing at this level? Isn't the question more whether he will be able to take us on an upward trajectory?

I suspect most people in this country who’ve done their coaches badges and managed at a professional level are ‘capable’ (as an experiment) of setting us up for a championship game and would probably win 30/40% of games with the quality we have in the squad.

So in terms of capable, or out of depth at this level, however you want to define that - what we need to be asking is our coach someone who has the potential to make the squad play better than the sum of its parts - either through for example and including:

A) An excellent, innovate training and development structure that develops and improves the players attributes - I.E individual performances improving

B) A coach capable of creating a winning style of play with the preparation skills to adjust and adapt that style so it is successful against a range of opposition styles. I.E we set up to play a clear style of football that can beat different opposition approaches. 

C) A coach capable of motivating the players and creating an environment for them to perform consistently at their best with manageable instructions. I.E the players go out and work their arses off for the coach every game and their performance levels are consistent.

D) A coach with a first class understanding of the game and it’s tactics and our opposition, capable of adapting in game to changing situations - I.E can adjust the team and make substitutions during a match to get results.

Is Manning delivering these things? Debatable. Is he capable of consistently doing so? Debatable.

Therefore if he isn’t, then he is actually ‘out of his depth’ at this level in many ways - if the whole point is to succeed and not just survive.

[mozo]

31 minutes ago, Henry said:

History tells us they generally don’t go for the same type twice in a row. They would more likely go for Mowbray type than another young un.

They would probably try something different, but doesn't necessarily mean going back to an old school gaffer (I don't think they would do that unless we were threatened with relegation again). 

I think they'd try to get a modern head coach but maybe more experienced and possibly from overseas.

At the moment I reckon it's a case of better the devil you know.

29 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think in some ways we are guilty as a fanbase of oversimplifying via Old Experienced Coach = stands up for themselves vs Young relatively inexperienced coach = puppet.

FWIW I don’t, and have never, seen Liam as a mannequin coach and doing so probably misses the point a little.

If I take a step back then the following are true:

- Liam is a very single minded person. I’ve said a few times that he has huge belief in what he does which is both positive and negative so when people say that he doesn’t have the infrastructure to help him through then I think it’s also fair to say that whenever we’ve discussed this, the conclusion of most has been he wouldn’t want/accept the contrarian. None of us can say that for certain, but I think the evidence is that he knows his own mind and isn’t easily for turning/influencing

- He has been given a decent amount of money and players in order to facilitate his aims. I don’t think anyone is going to say that Lansdown and Tinnion are fully competent people, but by the same token as a head coach he’s come in to a decent mid table squad and been given the resources he wants. Are they parachute resources? Nope. But they are more than decent considering the base he already had.

The simplistic thing for me here is that two things can be simultaneously true; it can be a good thing if the hierarchy goes, but it can also be the case that the hierarchy aren’t the sole reason Liam succeeds or fails. If they were sat on the bench telling him what to do or denying him funds, then there is a case for that. But neither of those things are true.

We have a coach who knows his own mind and believes in his processes. He’s been backed by the board, whether we like them or not. If he succeeds or fails, it won’t be because he’s a puppet, it’ll be based on his own ability and anything else is an easy way out.

Do I think it’s anything to do with “cahunas” - nope. If anything there is an argument Liam has manipulated less intelligent people than him (JL/BT) to get exactly what he wants as he knows if he fails it makes them look daft. But have I seen any evidence ability wise he will really progress the club? Not as yet.

Now, if you want to have a discussion as to whether he was an appropriate “fit” and we needed to spend £10m to stand still (seemingly) then that’s another conversation!

 

Just on the spending... The money we've spent has been seen as an investment, because the players have upside. But we might stand still for a while before they realise that.

8 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I suspect most people in this country who’ve done their coaches badges and managed at a professional level are ‘capable’ (as an experiment) of setting us up for a championship game and would probably win 30/40% of games with the quality we have in the squad.

So in terms of capable, or out of depth at this level, however you want to define that - what we need to be asking is our coach someone who has the potential to make the squad play better than the sum of its parts - either through for example and including:

A) An excellent, innovate training and development structure that develops and improves the players attributes - I.E individual performances improving

B) A coach capable of creating a winning style of play with the preparation skills to adjust and adapt that style so it is successful against a range of opposition styles. I.E we set up to play a clear style of football that can beat different opposition approaches. 

C) A coach capable of motivating the players and creating an environment for them to perform consistently at their best with manageable instructions. I.E the players go out and work their arses off for the coach every game and their performance levels are consistent.

D) A coach with a first class understanding of the game and it’s tactics and our opposition, capable of adapting in game to changing situations - I.E can adjust the team and make substitutions during a match to get results.

Is Manning delivering these things? Debatable. Is he capable of consistently doing so? Debatable.

Therefore if he isn’t, then he is actually ‘out of his depth’ at this level in many ways - if the whole point is to succeed and not just survive.

I don't disagree with the majority of your breakdown, but that opening sentence seems like a big claim? Don't know what other people think to that?

[Davefevs]

48 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Me too. I assume it's just hyperbole.

Manning took over a lower midtable finishing team and finished 11th last season. His last 16 games (ok, I'm being selective, but it represents a third of a season of 'form') we've picked up 26 points. That's around 74 points if replicated over a whole season. 

None of this suggests he is dramatically "out of his depth" or a complete misfit at this level. 

Will he ultimately succeed here? For the reasons I've outlined in my earlier post, probably not. 

Let's be honest too. He's intrinsically linked in the minds of fans with the sacking of Pearson and the return to frontline duty of Jon Lansdown. And whether consciously or subconsciously, some fans are still not over that episode.

And a new chapter won't begin until one, some, or all, of Manning, Tinnion and JL are gone. 

I think the “out of his depth” comments (whether you or I agree with them or not) are against expectations of being in top-10 all season and having a go at playoffs.  It’s probably a bit of an OTT term in fairness, but hey-ho.

Evaluating against his performance so far (mainly last season but a bit of this season) - Peaks and troughs of performance and results so far, regardless of opponent too (ie beat Leicester and Southampton, lose to teams in the bottom-8).  In some respects that is the Championship, so not a dig, just what it is.

The shenanigans above him are only really relevant to LM in terms of Finances / Budgets and recruitment in / out…which this summer, they’ve actually delivered upon.

So, I’m waiting to see him make that step forward.  He’s been given the tools / backed for his part of the “job”.  He knew what the expectations were.  I think as fans we’ve been more realistic about what is expected than those above LM, at least in terms of what they’ve communicated to us.