Time to stop calling for LM's head?

[Fuber]

As with any manager - and I was the same with LJ.

Poor performances are only mitigated by pinching results.

See LJ first half of his final season when performances were dire.

When the results went. So did fan patience with the (frankly) woeful football - lost count of the number of 0 shot on targets matches under him (and Holden).

NP almost went for the same reasons in the autumn of 2022.

No reason to not treat Manning equally, especially when he's been backed.

[Numero Uno]

25 minutes ago, Fuber said:

As with any manager - and I was the same with LJ.

Poor performances are only mitigated by pinching results.

See LJ first half of his final season when performances were dire.

When the results went. So did fan patience with the (frankly) woeful football - lost count of the number of 0 shot on targets matches under him (and Holden).

NP almost went for the same reasons in the autumn of 2022.

No reason to not treat Manning equally, especially when he's been backed.

I agree with that albeit I would say we haven’t been too bad at home this season. We were certainly better than Oxford that’s for sure. Away from home has been very ordinary so far though. We’ve had more possession than the opposition in every game so far so the method is clearly changing…….it’s a case of whether we can continue that, create chances (especially away from home) AND, most importantly, tighten up which determines how Manning is ultimately viewed.

[mozo]

50 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I agree with that albeit I would say we haven’t been too bad at home this season. We were certainly better than Oxford that’s for sure. Away from home has been very ordinary so far though. We’ve had more possession than the opposition in every game so far so the method is clearly changing…….it’s a case of whether we can continue that, create chances (especially away from home) AND, most importantly, tighten up which determines how Manning is ultimately viewed.

Yeah I think there are still a few on here that think that City are just shit every week.

We've been fairly good at home, albeit dodgy at the back, and we were decent at Hull too.

[Clutton Caveman]

23 hours ago, 38MC said:

Whilst you cannot see the point in calling for the manager's head after a few bad results*, it's a bit rich to then suggest no one calls for his head for a while on the back of what you accept was not a fantastic win.

*FWIW I completely agree, but I think Manning is now in the position where he's expected to produce results off the back of 2 transfer windows where he's been backed and added depth to the squad and has had a pre-season to work with the core squad.

It's also not just a few bad results, he's coming up to a year in role now. This is where he comes under the microscope because we should be showing signs of improvement. He's also coming in to this period with no real credit in the bank because there hasn't been improvement up until now. If he persists to play Twine on the left and doesn't get results, I think the fan backlash will increase. He could easily relieve some pressure by lining up as we finished the second half on Saturday. Because if we go to Swansea on Sunday and lose with Twine on the left and Williams in the middle, he's going to be right back to square one. 

If he lines up as we did at the start against Oxford the press should demand an explanation as to why. My feeling is that he has some sort of theory and can't accept that it doesn't work. Self belief if one thing, pride and arrogance are another thing entirely

[DaveInSA]

4 hours ago, mozo said:

Yeah, I don't have any issue with your doubts and concerns, I was just pointing out the bit about his results being mid table and therefore not necessarily 'out of his depth'.

Again, I understand your criticism there.

Manning came in without Championship experience, and he's now on about 40 games. 

He's shown he can tick along at a very mediocre win one, draw one, lose one average. 

If the expectation is to finish 12th, he looks pretty good for it. If we're hoping for top 6, we'll need to see an improvement. We'll also need all these players with potential to progress quickly.

If we take the w-d-l as a sequence in the 6 games to date, I would argue that we should be winning against Derby and not losing against Blackburn. Those are (at least in theory and on paper) easy games. We got hammered in both of them!

At the midpoint of the season, and with the 6 games as a barometer, I reckon at best we’ll be 15th.

He might rip it up, and play Twine centrally with Yu and Mehmeti (ANO) wide on the left with Bird and Knight as the 2 midfielders. If he does, and it works I’ll eat my words. And happily too.

I just don’t see him getting it to “click” he’s way too focused on his methods.

[Silvio Dante]

15 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

If he lines up as we did at the start against Oxford the press should demand an explanation as to why. My feeling is that he has some sort of theory and can't accept that it doesn't work. Self belief if one thing, pride and arrogance are another thing entirely

 

7 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

He might rip it up, and play Twine centrally with Yu and Mehmeti (ANO) wide on the left with Bird and Knight as the 2 midfielders. If he does, and it works I’ll eat my words. And happily too.

I just don’t see him getting it to “click” he’s way too focused on his methods.

And this is where the post matches like he had the other day don’t help him. Everyone knows Twine came central. But Liams steadfast denial of that made him, to be honest, look a bit of a *****. There was a need to prove he was right all along - when the change actually worked well. All he’s done by denying it is create more doubt among people.

As another famous son of East Anglia said “Needless to say, I had the last laugh”. Thats how it came across!

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Fuber said:

As with any manager - and I was the same with LJ.

Poor performances are only mitigated by pinching results.

See LJ first half of his final season when performances were dire.

When the results went. So did fan patience with the (frankly) woeful football - lost count of the number of 0 shot on targets matches under him (and Holden).

NP almost went for the same reasons in the autumn of 2022.

No reason to not treat Manning equally, especially when he's been backed.

Wasn't just the first half even. First month was okay, some individual games were okay but the whole season at our highest spending point was very poor as a whole in the context of that.

[mozo]

10 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

If we take the w-d-l as a sequence in the 6 games to date, I would argue that we should be winning against Derby and not losing against Blackburn. Those are (at least in theory and on paper) easy games. We got hammered in both of them!

At the midpoint of the season, and with the 6 games as a barometer, I reckon at best we’ll be 15th.

He might rip it up, and play Twine centrally with Yu and Mehmeti (ANO) wide on the left with Bird and Knight as the 2 midfielders. If he does, and it works I’ll eat my words. And happily too.

I just don’t see him getting it to “click” he’s way too focused on his methods.

You probably already got this but just to reiterate, the w-d-l form I mentioned is across his total record for us in the league. It's actually 14-13-15 [wiki].

So this season has been roughly representative of his total reign. 

He's going to have to do better than 15th, so I hope you're wrong. I think there's enough in the performances for me to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I appreciate other's might not be so optimistic.

[mozo]

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

 

And this is where the post matches like he had the other day don’t help him. Everyone knows Twine came central. But Liams steadfast denial of that made him, to be honest, look a bit of a *****. There was a need to prove he was right all along - when the change actually worked well. All he’s done by denying it is create more doubt among people.

As another famous son of East Anglia said “Needless to say, I had the last laugh”. Thats how it came across!

 

When you've lost two games 3-0 and there's speculation about your job security, the last thing you should do is go into a presser and admit to mistakes! 

But, he needs a more convincing story around the Twine situation.

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, mozo said:

When you've lost two games 3-0 and there's speculation about your job security, the last thing you should do is go into a presser and admit to mistakes! 

But, he needs a more convincing story around the Twine situation.

It wasn’t even admitting mistakes was it? It was a case of he changed things at HT for the better but for whatever reason he couldn’t take the credit from that.

And, as I think was proven by both @Harry and his video analysis and @Davefevs and his heatmap, it was bullshit.

Just a bizarre scenario. You’ve won the game. A change you’ve made directly contributed to that. But you can’t take the win as it would undermine your prior points. Mental.

[Fordy62]

4 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

Let's be honest too. He's intrinsically linked in the minds of fans with the sacking of Pearson and the return to frontline duty of Jon Lansdown. And whether consciously or subconsciously, some fans are still not over that episode.

 

This 100% describes where I’m at. And you can apply the same to Lee Johnson too. I can’t emphasise enough how much I hate this club when we fail to back people who deserve the backing and then back their replacement blindly. It’ll be why we’re never successful. 

I recognise it’s not Manning (or Johnson’s) fault, but it’s just what the Lansdowns do, but it really starts me off on the back foot with whomever is given the job afterwards. 

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, mozo said:

You probably already got this but just to reiterate, the w-d-l form I mentioned is across his total record for us in the league. It's actually 14-13-15 [wiki].

So this season has been roughly representative of his total reign. 

He's going to have to do better than 15th, so I hope you're wrong. I think there's enough in the performances for me to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I appreciate other's might not be so optimistic.

You completely undermine any post you’ve made or make in future () if you use Wikipedia data to underpin your thoughts!!!

Only joking!

From Transfermarkt (league only as specified by you)

The context of his total reign is to not to deliver a flatline though.  He’s had two windows, a preseason, international breaks to display an upward trend.

In some areas you can probably decipher some growth.  If you take @Kid in the Riot’s 26 pts from 16 games and ignore the convenience of the selection (which he admits himself), that is progress.  Imagine doing that before Derby - 23 pts from 13!!

He's got to get into regular “wins > losses” positions through this season.  Generally you need 2-3 more wins than losses to be 10th…and that obviously increases as you move up the table.

 

[sh1t_ref_again]

6 hours ago, temp said:

 

We continue to sell our best players, the last one to a championship rival f.f.s, (the latest to reject a mediocre club for an ambitous club) and all this selling has got us......nowhere

 

So what do you suggest we did with Conway refusing to sign a contract? keep him here to get 300k compensation in a years time?

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

You completely undermine any post you’ve made or make in future () if you use Wikipedia data to underpin your thoughts!!!

Only joking!

From Transfermarkt (league only as specified by you)

The context of his total reign is to not to deliver a flatline though.  He’s had two windows, a preseason, international breaks to display an upward trend.

In some areas you can probably decipher some growth.  If you take @Kid in the Riot’s 26 pts from 16 games and ignore the convenience of the selection (which he admits himself), that is progress.  Imagine doing that before Derby - 23 pts from 13!!

He's got to get into regular “wins > losses” positions through this season.  Generally you need 2-3 more wins than losses to be 10th…and that obviously increases as you move up the table.

 

Just when we thought the quality of my posts couldn't get any worse... 

Thankfully the correct stats aren't too far off the w, d, l I was talking about!

Either way, I agree what you say 117.3%.

[Redrascal2]

On 24/09/2024 at 12:11, reddogkev said:

I'm interested to see what responses this gets after a win, granted not a fantastic win, but nonetheless 3 points.

Because I really can't see the point of calling for Liam to be sacked after every bad couple of results, despite how crap those games were.

If that was how football worked, gaffer's would be dropping like flies every couple of months.  What a club needs is stability and time for the coach to develop his style and see where it takes the team ... especially on the back of a massive summer of recruitment.

I would gladly give LM this full season and see what he manages, provided we don't look like a relegation candidate at any stage.

Now I'm not a fan of LM, I've always been a bit vanilla towards him, but I hate the calls the for him to be sacked so early in the season.

Let's give the man a decent chance this season to see if he can make us a top six team.  Come on Liam, let's Go!!!!!

I have a feeling we might know the answer to your last statement already. 

[Alessandro]

4 hours ago, mozo said:

They would probably try something different, but doesn't necessarily mean going back to an old school gaffer (I don't think they would do that unless we were threatened with relegation again). 

I think they'd try to get a modern head coach but maybe more experienced and possibly from overseas.

At the moment I reckon it's a case of better the devil you know.

Just on the spending... The money we've spent has been seen as an investment, because the players have upside. But we might stand still for a while before they realise that.

I don't disagree with the majority of your breakdown, but that opening sentence seems like a big claim? Don't know what other people think to that?

It might be a bit hyperbolic - but take Dean Holden for an example.

Appointed after a career mainly in league 1 and below as an assistant.

Had, over 43 games, a 44% win ratio at City. Got fired.

Manning - better backed, with the squad in a far better place is….42 games - 33% win ratio.

Interesting stats.

Back to Holden, since being fired from us - has, apart from a ‘unsuccessful’ spell at Charlton (league 1?), been assisting again. 

Point being - Holden was, probably not unfair to say, “out of his depth”, as a head coach, in a championship team. His record since backs that up.

And Holden has/had a better win ratio than Manning over 40 odd games….

[Mr Popodopolous]

We also had the highest wage bill in our history under Holden albeit mostly not his work ie inherited.

Then the injuries started to kick in and it was very much the train clattering off the tracks- injuries, lots out of contract, knowing an FFP reckoning (which we did under NP and Gould) was likely on the horizon if not Promoted that year etc.

No fans too although the same for everyone.

[temp]

1 hour ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

So what do you suggest we did with Conway refusing to sign a contract? keep him here to get 300k compensation in a years time?

offer him more money maybe, come on boro ffs even we beat them

[temp]

7 hours ago, mozo said:

Yeah, I don't have any issue with your doubts and concerns, I was just pointing out the bit about his results being mid table and therefore not necessarily 'out of his depth'.

Again, I understand your criticism there.

Manning came in without Championship experience, and he's now on about 40 games. 

He's shown he can tick along at a very mediocre win one, draw one, lose one average. 

If the expectation is to finish 12th, he looks pretty good for it. If we're hoping for top 6, we'll need to see an improvement. We'll also need all these players with potential to progress quickly.

yes and if any potential progresses from any of those players they will be sold, cause heaven forebid we actually keep our assets; Hate to go back to Conway but would love to know what Boro offerred that we couldn`t, wait I know AMBITION;

We have won 11 games, drew 3 and lost 4 games against super boro, going back to Nov 2012 boro ffs, wake up Lansdowns build a team show some ambition

Edited Wednesday at 14:37 by temp

[DSTAF]

Let's be honest with ourselves, unless a manager is poached from us, at some point almost everyone will be calling for the manager's head. All our managers go through that, the last one perhaps, who got away almost scot free was GJ, but even then fans largely thought it was time to go. Even NP went through a periods where fans wanted him gone. 

LM will leave this club and will likely be sacked after poor results or a poor run of performances. He is not going to take this club forwards, no matter how long he has, IMO. So lets cut to the chase; he wasn't brought here to stabilise or anything like that. He was brought here to improve and have us challenging. He's had best part of a season now and there's more regression than progression. For me, he still needs to go. But i accept, that this is not likely and that any replacement will hired by the chuckle brothers and wont change anything. 

[Cidre Monita]

No. He has had almost a year in charge now spread over 2 seasons. Football fans can be very fickle but I have maintained from day one that the guy was not up to the job and I’ve always been consistent about that. He has been a very lucky boy at 2 key points in his time with us. The first ‘sliding doors’ moment was the Rob Dickie goal against Swansea last season and the missed open goal by Harris on Saturday. If either events had gone the other way I’m convinced he’d have been gone by now. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, temp said:

offer him more money maybe, come on boro ffs even we beat them

Hopefully this can be the start.

I'll explain what I mean, Semenyo and 2 years of heavy lifting and restraint sorted FFP, then Scott sorted it for a given period.

I think that we might be running at a model whereby we are compliant with FFP old and new and don't have to sell anyone, if some of our players under 25 develop as hoped either..develop together.

A) We can be choosy about who to sell and when or if they get sold.

B) A large proportion, perhaps close to 100% of Transfer Profit can be put back in to strengthen the side.

This is it on paper anyway, whether we go that way..

Edited Wednesday at 14:45 by Mr Popodopolous

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

It might be a bit hyperbolic - but take Dean Holden for an example.

Appointed after a career mainly in league 1 and below as an assistant.

Had, over 43 games, a 44% win ratio at City. Got fired.

Manning - better backed, with the squad in a far better place is….42 games - 33% win ratio.

Interesting stats.

Back to Holden, since being fired from us - has, apart from a ‘unsuccessful’ spell at Charlton (league 1?), been assisting again. 

Point being - Holden was, probably not unfair to say, “out of his depth”, as a head coach, in a championship team. His record since backs that up.

And Holden has/had a better win ratio than Manning over 40 odd games….

So you're saying bring back Holden?! 

I can't believe he won that many games. It was feast or famine unfortunately with him.

Manning at least has those 40% + win records at previous clubs, but yeah I take your point.

28 minutes ago, temp said:

yes and if any potential progresses from any of those players they will be sold, cause heaven forebid we actually keep our assets; Hate to go back to Conway but would love to know what Boro offerred that we couldn`t, wait I know AMBITION;

We have won 11 games, drew 3 and lost 4 games against super boro, going back to Nov 2012 boro ffs, wake up Lansdowns build a team show some ambition

Agree, we probably will always sell these players before enjoying their best work. 

At least we're currently level with Boro. Will be an interesting game with them after the international break.

[sh1t_ref_again]

44 minutes ago, temp said:

offer him more money maybe, come on boro ffs even we beat them

We offered him a number of contracts, even NP said he would have been 1 of the highest paid players. Think he thought he would get a prem move that did not materialise, so have to move to Boro as we has moved on.

It's not always lack of ambition from City, sometimes players move on, Semenyo we had to sell for FFP, Scott wanted a move to the prem and wages we could never get close to, its the way of all clubs except those at the very top

[temp]

Brighton, Forest, Fulham currently 7th, 8th,9th in the prem add Brentford,Bournemouth,C Palace, Ipswich please tell me what they are doing so right and that we are doing so wrong? have they better, more fans have they better grounds? why the hell are they where they are and we are still here going around in circles of constant rebuilds. You have to look to the top for that answer.

Yes I know there are clubs that have fallen away like we did when we did get to the top div, progress since the sacking of SC has been zero.

The chairman seems quite happy for us to be chugging around and around, no wonder so many decent players leave.

As for LM he didnt bring himself here the bosses did that, says it all really.

[Harry]

I’ve said elsewhere that I’d have sacked him in March. But now that he’s been given £10m, and given that Jon & Brian believe in him, I’ve said I’m prepared to give him the season and see how we end up. 
The expectations set by the board in November 2023 were of a top end squad, and the addition of Liam was necessary to push us on. Brian also then doubled down on this and suggested an extra 10 points ought to be realistic. 
 

For me, the target and expectation is playoffs. And for me that means 75 points.

Which is roughly to ensure you are tracking at around 8 points in every 5 games (8.15 actually). 
 

We’ve played 6 and are on 8. So basically we are 1 game behind target at the moment. We should be tracking at 10 points currently (well, 9.78 to be exact). 
 

That means we should have picked up 2 additional points so far. On the performances to date, that could easily have come at Hull or even at home v Coventry. 
I’m content that those performances were decent enough to get 3 points. The nuances are ; Why didn’t we!! 

We need to be hitting around 16 points after 10 games. So the next 4 (Swans away, Weds home, Cardiff home and Boro away) need to yield 8 points. 2 wins and 2 draws. Or 3 wins 1 loss will be enough. 
 

Those are my targets based on the expectations. 
 

I’m happy for Liam to continue. But as I’ve said before, if we don’t achieve playoffs, my judgement will not only be upon Liam. It will be considering all factors including the responsibilities of Jon, Brian and the Recruitment Team. 

Edited Wednesday at 21:07 by Harry

[watkins1983]

Swansea away Sunday, and 2 home games next week against bottom 3 teams. We could be right up there before a run of trickier games begin.

 
Yu changed the game against Oxford coming on at half time, manning deserves some credit for getting Joe off and bringing him on, not waiting untill the normal 60th minute substitution. And for dropping Sykes who has been poor of late. 
 

Fingers crossed for 7+ points at least our next 3 games 
 

 

[JP Hampton]

On 24/09/2024 at 13:59, Swede said:

I've seen enough already. I see someone who is quite set in his ways. Gets outdone by other managers who change their in game management.  I don't think he has the charisma to inspire any of us let alone the important ones, the players. I get the impression he loves the coaching side but doesn't enjoy the media side & matchday experience as much, which is, of course, part of being a head coach these days.

The conundrum is can he take us to a top ten/top six finish? i.e. the next level? I don't think he can. We are still an average second tier club and worryingly for him this is how our results to date have panned out & this is against teams I would expect a better return from. I say worryingly because cardiff are looking for a new manager & they are judging his results against teams like Burnley & Leeds. Imagine us playing those matches early season, I think he would've been under a lot more pressure than he is now. 

The problem of course is much more deep rooted and higher up as the next incumbent will be of a similar ilk & probably Oxford's current head coach.

I hope of course that he proves me wrong but I have seen little to date to make me alter my views.

Think it’s my biggest concern, his in game management, but I’m willing to concede Nakki for Armstrong and finally Twine in position,were good calls. 
  I was amazed by LM’s description, in his post match interview on RB, that the boys played with a real energy in the first half, for me that was simply not true and there’s quite a disconnect at times, between what happens on the pitch and his post match summing up. 
 It was only when Yu came on that things started shifting up a gear. 

[Severn Beach Pigeon]

On 24/09/2024 at 14:28, Davefevs said:

Reactions should come with understanding what / if anything has changed, and why it might’ve changed.

And then whether it’s sustainable, ie form or new-norm.

I enjoyed the control (in the main) of Oxford.

I enjoyed the excitement of Millwall

I bloody hated Blackburn

etc.

I only saw the first half of the Blackburn game, due to leaving for work at HT, but what I saw in that first half was 2 very even looking sides, neither of which created particularly much. The home side being ahead after a bad defensive error (some credit for the press? but a poor decision and contact with the ball by Max) by us.

 

I really do think (and not saying this applies to yourself Dave, but addressing part of your interaction with KITR) there are several people at least on here who are set against Manning because he is the Pearson replacement and they are unhappy with how NP was sacked.

I posted the other day (which you responded to) about how after the Millwall game there were a number wanting to see us line up how we did for the end, but then when we did exactly that- at least for the bit being talked about with Twine, Bird and Knight- and it didn't work, those same posters were criticising for seeing the thing they wanted. Now I don't think Manning is the only manager to have this happen, not at all. But it's an example of how some vocal people will have short memories if it allows them to have a moan, and these types are generally the more vocal.

Likewise with hyperbolic statements. I think that hyperbolic statements are far more likely to be made in the negative, and come out far more quickly than in reverse.

Yes, there are the occasional ones that are hyperbolic in their positivity though some of those are clearly tongue in cheek as well.

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, Severn Beach Pigeon said:

I only saw the first half of the Blackburn game, due to leaving for work at HT, but what I saw in that first half was 2 very even looking sides, neither of which created particularly much. The home side being ahead after a bad defensive error (some credit for the press? but a poor decision and contact with the ball by Max) by us.

 

I really do think (and not saying this applies to yourself Dave, but addressing part of your interaction with KITR) there are several people at least on here who are set against Manning because he is the Pearson replacement and they are unhappy with how NP was sacked.

I posted the other day (which you responded to) about how after the Millwall game there were a number wanting to see us line up how we did for the end, but then when we did exactly that- at least for the bit being talked about with Twine, Bird and Knight- and it didn't work, those same posters were criticising for seeing the thing they wanted. Now I don't think Manning is the only manager to have this happen, not at all. But it's an example of how some vocal people will have short memories if it allows them to have a moan, and these types are generally the more vocal.

Likewise with hyperbolic statements. I think that hyperbolic statements are far more likely to be made in the negative, and come out far more quickly than in reverse.

Yes, there are the occasional ones that are hyperbolic in their positivity though some of those are clearly tongue in cheek as well.

It’s pretty clear I was a huge Pearson fan, gutted he was sacked, and the way it was handled, because I’d bought into the process and thought he was delivering it.  But I was pretty open on Manning, prepared to judge many facets, what he said, how he came across, and more importantly results and performances and even more importantly against expectations - bollax expectations from the hierarchy, more reasoned expectations from most on here.  There will be a couple on here sniggering at this, but they should go back to last Oct / Nov and read my posts on Manning.

When his name was first touted as a serious option in the media, I deliberately avoided making any real comments on good fit / bad fit.  I still my research (that’s what I do, sad as I am ) but said on here that I could spin it however I wanted, so what was the point.  For example finished 3rd with Lommel, that’s great, some posted as such.  But it’s an 8 team league, 3rd out of 8 doesn’t feel so great.  There were other things too I could’ve spun one way or the other.  I preferred to see if he did get appointed and then did some analysis on what he said, which was very much continuity based - recruitment / academy and style of play.  All good.

From that point it was building a picture of his team with City.  And that evolved over the months into a position where I wasn’t very positive at all.  I went on BBCRB SOTC and said if I was in charge I’d have moved him on / sacked him.  But it’s largely / totally irrelevant what I think, as I’m not in charge, nor ever will be - this Friday’s Euromillions lottery of £107m isn’t enough for SL!

So, although it’s great subject for debate on OTIB, we probably should let others have their view and not worry too much whether it feels harsh, ill-informed, biased, contradictory, matches our own….but we do, me included.  There is a lot of hyperbole and I agree it’s much easier to be negative and not need to justify it, whereas say something positive and “war and peace” is needed to have a sniff of it being accepted.  I think in a 3-result sport, win, draw, lose, only 1/3rd of them is truly positive, leaving 2/3rds as negative.  I think it kinda reflects the way we post too.

The Millwall game is interesting.  The result masked quite a lot or at least created revision :

”The subs changed the game”, when the fact is they came on with us drawing 2-2…not losing 3-2.

”Bird got 2 assists, so must stay as no10”, fair comment, he played really well that day, but he was signed to play in a more conventional midfield role.  The manager as well as the fans needs to not be knee-jerk over one game “trends”.

I guess public enemy no1 from Hull, Joe Williams, gets redemption for his assist v Millwall too.

And guess what?  We have got a similar situation post Oxford.  A perception at least, maybe reality, that the team that started the second half should start against Swansea on Sunday.

God knows what team LM will pick.  I suspect anything less than a win, will see a familiar round of threads and posts.

We keep coming back don’t we?

[bpexile]

15 hours ago, Davefevs said:

ie beat Leicester and Southampton, lose to teams in the bottom-8

Agreed Dave & tbf that's been the norm for us for many many seasons that I can remember, I just want someone who can break the norm & make us contenders (sorry to go back to NP but I believe we had that, had he been backed) .

[fisherrich]

On 24/09/2024 at 12:56, tin said:

I’ve seen enough in nearly 50 games under Manning to know we’re more likely to go down than up. He’s wedded to his premeditated plans and has little if they don’t work IMO (the half-time sub made v Oxford paid off but was more of an outlier when you compare his “behaviours” in the prior games). I don’t see much evidence to warrant making the change last year, despite the large amounts of money spent. 

Despite all of that, I’m not calling for his head because my eyes are on those above him. Sacking a manager makes no difference when you consider it’s the same people making the same mistakes in the boardroom. The chances are that when he does go, it’ll be a similar profile that comes in. It won’t be anyone with top-flight experience here or abroad. It’s rinse and repeat, over and over again. The definition of madness.

Agreed, Need a new owner, not manager

[Harry]

10 hours ago, Severn Beach Pigeon said:

I really do think (and not saying this applies to yourself Dave, but addressing part of your interaction with KITR) there are several people at least on here who are set against Manning because he is the Pearson replacement and they are unhappy with how NP was sacked.

I can only speak for myself but when Manning first arrived I was the target of quite of bit on here because I was saying “let’s at least give the bloke a chance”. 
I was prepared to put aside the Nige situation and see how Liam did (albeit with the caveat that the narrative from the board was bollox!) 

I received a number of negative comments on here (and that’s no problem, I can handle it) because in those first couple of months I could see some things he was attempting to implement, and whilst the performances overall were still not great, I could see some underlying principles he was trying to instill. 
 

So I’ve probably given Liam as much rope as anyone. That all came to a halt in March when we were on a poor run, with poor performances, poor underlying metrics and his leadership during that period really struck me as being very poor. I started getting poor vibes from him during his media, and he seemed utterly clueless as to what he had to do to turn things around. 

I would have sacked him back then. However, he’s now been backed (significantly) and got what he wanted (so say), and therefore he gets the opportunity to prove he can do it. 
Nothing yet is screaming at me to alter my opinion but he gets a fair crack of the whip and I’ll judge where we are at the end of the season (or before if we’re not hitting the required target - playoffs). 

Edited Thursday at 08:43 by Harry

[Sir Geoff]

22 minutes ago, Harry said:

I can only speak for myself but when Manning first arrived I was the target of quite of bit on here because I was saying “let’s at least give the bloke a chance”. 
I was prepared to put aside the Nige situation and see how Liam did (albeit with the caveat that the narrative from the board was bollox!) 

I received a number of negative comments on here (and that’s no problem, I can handle it) because in those first couple of months I could see some things he was attempting to implement, and whilst the performances overall were still not great, I could see some underlying principles he was trying to instill. 
 

So I’ve probably given Liam as much rope as anyone. That all came to a halt in March when we were on a poor run, with poor performances, poor underlying metrics and his leadership during that period really struck me as being very poor. I started getting poor vibes from him during his media, and he seemed utterly clueless as to what he had to do to turn things around. 

I would have sacked him back then. However, he’s now been backed (significantly) and got what he wanted (so say), and therefore he gets the opportunity to prove he can do it. 
Nothing yet is screaming at me to alter my opinion but he gets a fair crack of the whip and I’ll judge where we are at the end of the season (or before if we’re not hitting the required target - playoffs). 

Guilty, as charged. Apologies. I was underwhelmed by the appointment in the first place and even more so with his strange selections and tactics, in his first game in charge at QPR, which was the first of many bore fests. I hoped that things would get better and we would see a more exciting brand of football than we had endured for the previous 3 years or so. Apart from the odd out of character win (Watford A) I have seen nothing to change my mind that things will get any better (more exciting).

[Davefevs]

Aw, bless!

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

Guilty, as charged. Apologies. I was underwhelmed by the appointment in the first place and even more so with his strange selections and tactics, in his first game in charge at QPR, which was the first of many bore fests. I hoped that things would get better and we would see a more exciting brand of football than we had endured for the previous 3 years or so. Apart from the odd out of character win (Watford A) I have seen nothing to change my mind that things will get any better (more exciting).

Ha ha. Yeah, as I say mate, no skin off my nose. 
I saw a few things early doors that slightly encouraged me (and I wouldn’t have expected immediate change vs QPR!). And yes, I was highly encouraged after the Watford away game. 
Things went downhill very quickly after that though. And by March I’d seen enough to convince me that he’s not a leader. And nothing I’ve seen since tells me he is a leader. 

[Topper 123]

20 hours ago, temp said:

offer him more money maybe, come on boro ffs even we beat them

He was offered more money a very good offer apparently but his head was for moving on , you can’t stop that 

[Bristol City mad man]

16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It’s pretty clear I was a huge Pearson fan, gutted he was sacked, and the way it was handled, because I’d bought into the process and thought he was delivering it.  But I was pretty open on Manning, prepared to judge many facets, what he said, how he came across, and more importantly results and performances and even more importantly against expectations - bollax expectations from the hierarchy, more reasoned expectations from most on here.  There will be a couple on here sniggering at this, but they should go back to last Oct / Nov and read my posts on Manning.

When his name was first touted as a serious option in the media, I deliberately avoided making any real comments on good fit / bad fit.  I still my research (that’s what I do, sad as I am ) but said on here that I could spin it however I wanted, so what was the point.  For example finished 3rd with Lommel, that’s great, some posted as such.  But it’s an 8 team league, 3rd out of 8 doesn’t feel so great.  There were other things too I could’ve spun one way or the other.  I preferred to see if he did get appointed and then did some analysis on what he said, which was very much continuity based - recruitment / academy and style of play.  All good.

From that point it was building a picture of his team with City.  And that evolved over the months into a position where I wasn’t very positive at all.  I went on BBCRB SOTC and said if I was in charge I’d have moved him on / sacked him.  But it’s largely / totally irrelevant what I think, as I’m not in charge, nor ever will be - this Friday’s Euromillions lottery of £107m isn’t enough for SL!

So, although it’s great subject for debate on OTIB, we probably should let others have their view and not worry too much whether it feels harsh, ill-informed, biased, contradictory, matches our own….but we do, me included.  There is a lot of hyperbole and I agree it’s much easier to be negative and not need to justify it, whereas say something positive and “war and peace” is needed to have a sniff of it being accepted.  I think in a 3-result sport, win, draw, lose, only 1/3rd of them is truly positive, leaving 2/3rds as negative.  I think it kinda reflects the way we post too.

The Millwall game is interesting.  The result masked quite a lot or at least created revision :

”The subs changed the game”, when the fact is they came on with us drawing 2-2…not losing 3-2.

”Bird got 2 assists, so must stay as no10”, fair comment, he played really well that day, but he was signed to play in a more conventional midfield role.  The manager as well as the fans needs to not be knee-jerk over one game “trends”.

I guess public enemy no1 from Hull, Joe Williams, gets redemption for his assist v Millwall too.

And guess what?  We have got a similar situation post Oxford.  A perception at least, maybe reality, that the team that started the second half should start against Swansea on Sunday.

God knows what team LM will pick.  I suspect anything less than a win, will see a familiar round of threads and posts.

We keep coming back don’t we?

I think we are going to have a medium to long term problem with him deciding on his number 6 role as I don't think we have a clear favourite who anyone else can agree on either? Hoping Earthy can get fit and fill the much debated 'inside left' position so LM finally puts Twine at 10 to stay and that one to bed, I think he will start Anis there on Sunday but we all know he will let us down and then that puts ideas back in LM's head which none of us want but I don't see a clear solution at 6 at present which is a worry. as Bird/Knight are 8s, Williams is off form badly and McGuane hasn't appeared yet!

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Bristol City mad man said:

I think we are going to have a medium to long term problem with him deciding on his number 6 role as I don't think we have a clear favourite who anyone else can agree on either? Hoping Earthy can get fit and fill the much debated 'inside left' position so LM finally puts Twine at 10 to stay and that one to bed, I think he will start Anis there on Sunday but we all know he will let us down and then that puts ideas back in LM's head which none of us want but I don't see a clear solution at 6 at present which is a worry. as Bird/Knight are 8s, Williams is off form badly and McGuane hasn't appeared yet!

I think it depends what you want your 6 to do, do you even want him to play like a 6.  Williams isn’t a 6.  My fall-back example on this is Korey Smith, he’d be called a 6 nowadays, but he did his “ratting” further forward than Pack who is probably the archetypal no6 in our minds…but he played as a single 6, Korey further forward.  So it’s hard to define what we think we need.

I’d say Bird is the closest we have to a 6, and spent the majority of his Championship career with Derby (before relegation) playing as one of the pivots (circa 80 of his 100 apps).  So I have no concerns with him if he plays it.  McGuane could play it, but he’d play it differently to Bird per se.

Ultimately it’s all about partnerships, not just with your fellow CM (whoever that might be), but the full-back on your side of the pitch and the CBs behind.  Those CBs should be dictating to the midfield where they want them.

+++++

re Anis LW, I think we are just gonna have to watch it play out.  I thought he was bright on Saturday.  I think he’d grow in confidence and therefore decisioning making if you have an 3 or 4 starts on the trot.

Earthy I’m gonna have to wait and see.  I watched a lot of clips of him for West Ham when he signed and I really like his “game”, but cannot judge until I’ve seen more than 15 mins in a City shirt.

[mozo]

52 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think it depends what you want your 6 to do, do you even want him to play like a 6.  Williams isn’t a 6.  My fall-back example on this is Korey Smith, he’d be called a 6 nowadays, but he did his “ratting” further forward than Pack who is probably the archetypal no6 in our minds…but he played as a single 6, Korey further forward.  So it’s hard to define what we think we need.

I’d say Bird is the closest we have to a 6, and spent the majority of his Championship career with Derby (before relegation) playing as one of the pivots (circa 80 of his 100 apps).  So I have no concerns with him if he plays it.  McGuane could play it, but he’d play it differently to Bird per se.

Ultimately it’s all about partnerships, not just with your fellow CM (whoever that might be), but the full-back on your side of the pitch and the CBs behind.  Those CBs should be dictating to the midfield where they want them.

+++++

re Anis LW, I think we are just gonna have to watch it play out.  I thought he was bright on Saturday.  I think he’d grow in confidence and therefore decisioning making if you have an 3 or 4 starts on the trot.

Earthy I’m gonna have to wait and see.  I watched a lot of clips of him for West Ham when he signed and I really like his “game”, but cannot judge until I’ve seen more than 15 mins in a City shirt.

Dave, I think we've seen a narrative on OTIB in the past that Williams isn't a Manning player, however the contract extension and team selections say otherwise.

Williams isn't a 6 per se, but Manning sees something important in JW's game. So you think it's the experience, drive and aggression that he thinks could be lacking if we leave him out?

The other thread suggests it's not his stats!

Edited Thursday at 17:14 by mozo

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, mozo said:

Dave, I think we've seen a narrative on OTIB in the past that Williams isn't a Manning player, however the contract extension and team selections say otherwise.

Williams isn't a 6 per se, but Manning sees something important in JW's game. So you think it's the experience, drive and aggression that he thinks could be lacking if we leave him out?

The other thread suggests it's not his stats!

I think he’s a decent player…a key part of our midfield rotation.

Ill take a look at the other thread.

[temp]

6 hours ago, Topper 123 said:

He was offered more money a very good offer apparently but his head was for moving on , you can’t stop that 

Why would he want to move on to a team who more often than not we beat home and away though? and there arent many who actually know what he was offered here compared to what he was offered at boro;

imo a bit more money helped but he was drawn to a club with more ambition and better prospects than round and around BCFC

[Red Army 79]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I think it depends what you want your 6 to do, do you even want him to play like a 6.  Williams isn’t a 6.  My fall-back example on this is Korey Smith, he’d be called a 6 nowadays, but he did his “ratting” further forward than Pack who is probably the archetypal no6 in our minds…but he played as a single 6, Korey further forward.  So it’s hard to define what we think we need.

I’d say Bird is the closest we have to a 6, and spent the majority of his Championship career with Derby (before relegation) playing as one of the pivots (circa 80 of his 100 apps).  So I have no concerns with him if he plays it.  McGuane could play it, but he’d play it differently to Bird per se.

Ultimately it’s all about partnerships, not just with your fellow CM (whoever that might be), but the full-back on your side of the pitch and the CBs behind.  Those CBs should be dictating to the midfield where they want them.

+++++

re Anis LW, I think we are just gonna have to watch it play out.  I thought he was bright on Saturday.  I think he’d grow in confidence and therefore decisioning making if you have an 3 or 4 starts on the trot.

Earthy I’m gonna have to wait and see.  I watched a lot of clips of him for West Ham when he signed and I really like his “game”, but cannot judge until I’ve seen more than 15 mins in a City shirt.

I liked it when Naismith played the six role. Think that’s the best spell he played for us before getting injured season before last. 

[Ring]

Funny that a post about “Time ago stop calling for LM’s head” leads to a debate about why we should be calling for LM’s head.

[REDOXO]

20 hours ago, Harry said:

I’ve said elsewhere that I’d have sacked him in March. But now that he’s been given £10m, and given that Jon & Brian believe in him, I’ve said I’m prepared to give him the season and see how we end up. 
The expectations set by the board in November 2023 were of a top end squad, and the addition of Liam was necessary to push us on. Brian also then doubled down on this and suggested an extra 10 points ought to be realistic. 
 

For me, the target and expectation is playoffs. And for me that means 75 points.

Which is roughly to ensure you are tracking at around 8 points in every 5 games (8.15 actually). 
 

We’ve played 6 and are on 8. So basically we are 1 game behind target at the moment. We should be tracking at 10 points currently (well, 9.78 to be exact). 
 

That means we should have picked up 2 additional points so far. On the performances to date, that could easily have come at Hull or even at home v Coventry. 
I’m content that those performances were decent enough to get 3 points. The nuances are ; Why didn’t we!! 

We need to be hitting around 16 points after 10 games. So the next 4 (Swans away, Weds home, Cardiff home and Boro away) need to yield 8 points. 2 wins and 2 draws. Or 3 wins 1 loss will be enough. 
 

Those are my targets based on the expectations. 
 

I’m happy for Liam to continue. But as I’ve said before, if we don’t achieve playoffs, my judgement will not only be upon Liam. It will be considering all factors including the responsibilities of Jon, Brian and the Recruitment Team. 

Almost exactly how I see it!! 
 

It is very unfortunate for Mr Manning that he came in the way he did. Bizarrely if he had come in the normal way, to save a failing club, he would be given much more latitude!

However Mr Mannings tenure with the club is intrinsically linked with Jon and Brian and he is tied to their comments and allegations over the dismissal handling of their firing of the last guy that their employers are utterly responsible for!

WITH THAT SAID again…I wish the bloke every success in getting us at least competitive with the top six. For my tuppence, if we go into the last two weeks of the season with a chance of top six I would probably think fair enough go again, however anything less is the failure of the two guys responsible for the day to day at the club as well as his! 

 

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

35 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Almost exactly how I see it!! 
 

It is very unfortunate for Mr Manning that he came in the way he did. Bizarrely if he had come in the normal way, to save a failing club, he would be given much more latitude!

However Mr Mannings tenure with the club is intrinsically linked with Jon and Brian and he is tied to their comments and allegations over the dismissal handling of their firing of the last guy that their employers are utterly responsible for!

WITH THAT SAID again…I wish the bloke every success in getting us at least competitive with the top six. For my tuppence, if we go into the last two weeks of the season with a chance of top six I would probably think fair enough go again, however anything less is the failure of the two guys responsible for the day to day at the club as well as his! 

 

I'm happy to decouple him from the shitshow that was the Jon & Tinnion show.

When he came in, he spoke kindly about how coachable the players were, how fit they were and their performance levels. 

Just a few months later under his tenure he's talking about how players needed to learn, raise the performance levels etc.  

He's now been given a lot of backing, and those +10 points @Harry should be there for the taking, if he's off the mark at Christmas I'll be fuming as a fan who was bought into the Pearson rebuild. We've already had some of the last season performances bollocks, it always feels like well you're the coach Liam sort it out.

Edited Thursday at 18:44 by Lorenzos Only Goal

[REDOXO]

11 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

I'm happy to decouple him from the shitshow that was the Jon & Tinnion show.

When he came in, he spoke kindly about how coachable the players were, how fit they were and their performance levels. 

Just a few months later under his tenure he's talking about how players needed to learn, raise the performance levels etc.  

He's now been given a lot of backing, and those +10 points @Harry should be there for the taking, if he's off the mark at Christmas I'll be fuming as a fan who was bought into the Pearson rebuild. We've already had some of the last season performances bollocks, it always feels like well you're the coach Liam sort it out.

Yes I agree with the last bit completely. No bloody excuses and (to use a Manningism) better outcomes!

[Fuber]

On 25/09/2024 at 12:01, mozo said:

Yeah I think there are still a few on here that think that City are just shit every week.

We've been fairly good at home, albeit dodgy at the back, and we were decent at Hull too.

Mediocre going forward, liability at the back.

Depends on how you view the context of us going 5th best defense in the league to (so far) one of the worst.

Wouldn't mind if we played the ball with purpose. Half the time however, in possession, we're playing it about for the sake of playing it, usually when behind.

Hull have signed a further 5(?) since we played them including Palmer. Millwall we lost complete control of for the middle 40. Oxford we were lucky to not be 2-0 down at HT.

Coventry we were pretty poor both games.

I'm yet to really look at any fixture and say I've seen anything impressive aside from one or two passages. Only I'm impressed at how much worse we are out of possession in midfield and defensively.

I'm generally cynical, however, as I think as a team we should always be looking to improve. But compare our start to say, LeBris, or Corberan, who have both spent less than us both net and outright?

We should be comparing ourselves to Sunderland, QPR, WBA, at minimum, who all finished around (WBA) or below us, all 1st or 2nd Season managers, finished below us prior.

Wednesday will improve under Rohl, they've been unlucky of late aside from a deserved demolishing served on the by 'Wall; 10 men against Luton, Leeds and Sunderland both flying.

If we finish below any 2 from those 4 - for me he has to go.

Edited Thursday at 22:43 by Fuber

[RollsRoyce]

Manning needs to go. The sooner the better, we are just wasting time indulging in him. He is miles off. 

[Fuber]

On 25/09/2024 at 12:01, mozo said:

Yeah I think there are still a few on here that think that City are just shit every week.

We've been fairly good at home, albeit dodgy at the back, and we were decent at Hull too.

Personally think we've been abject off the ball and defensively. Arguably worse than any time since Holden, even including LJs tenure.

We're better on the ball and retaining, but that's about it. Not clinical enough - but I'd say that's mostly due to poor recruitment (Mehmeti, among others).

Worth pointing out, personally I'm ignoring Hull. They've signed 6 since we played them and it meant nothing without three points, we were pretty poor.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just to say 4th best defence vs now...some numbers that underpin, relatively basic numbers.

Somewhere between top 10 and midtable then...when you take an average of the 4.

...As it is now.

Conceding 2 penalties in 6 Games can skew it a bit albeit the Shot Numbers seem not to include penalties. Unsure about last year.

Pring-Twine left hand side did/does constitute a structural issue but a bigger issue there perhaps Twine being left which impacts on the defensive stability.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Earthy potentially being back could be good news, provided he isn't rushed in.

I'd sooner recoveries were sustainable and if it meant a bit more U21, a bit more making sure in prime shape and we don't see him until post International break, well that's better than rushing in and breaking down again.

[Sir Geoff]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Earthy potentially being back could be good news, provided he isn't rushed in.

I'd sooner recoveries were sustainable and if it meant a bit more U21, a bit more making sure in prime shape and we don't see him until post International break, well that's better than rushing in and breaking down again.

Didn't feature for the U 21's on Monday so assume he has been with the first team all week. Probably on the bench, Sunday.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Didn't feature for the U 21's on Monday so assume he has been with the first team all week. Probably on the bench, Sunday.

Thanks. Wheb was he last in I21s? Think they said he would resume training post Blackburn.

As in I guess there aren't set timeframes but U21-wider rehabilitation-First Team squad.

Just hope we aren't rushing any players back to chase short-term objectives, squad is quite deep now after all.

[Davefevs]

30 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Didn't feature for the U 21's on Monday so assume he has been with the first team all week. Probably on the bench, Sunday.

Yes, mentioned by LM yesterday.  Had 3 days training with 1st Team.

I fully expect him to come in for Cornick, assuming no other injuries.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

On 25/09/2024 at 12:48, Fordy62 said:

This 100% describes where I’m at. And you can apply the same to Lee Johnson too. I can’t emphasise enough how much I hate this club when we fail to back people who deserve the backing and then back their replacement blindly. It’ll be why we’re never successful. 

I recognise it’s not Manning (or Johnson’s) fault, but it’s just what the Lansdowns do, but it really starts me off on the back foot with whomever is given the job afterwards. 

Back, sack and crack (on)

[W-S-M Seagull]

22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

McGuane could play it

That would require him to actually get some minutes Dave!