Negativity

[lenred]

18 minutes ago, mozo said:

We're definitely going round in circles when people keep going back to that top 6 statement.

One day I'll be lying on my deathbed and before drawing my last breath, I'll log on to OTIB one last time, and there will still be comments on there saying "30 years ago, when they sacked Nige, they said top 6, and look at us now..."

You can mock me all you want but it’s what was stated.   And what is expected as outlined more eloquently above by Dave.  

[mozo]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

To be clear….promotion was the stated aim - this season.  Stated by all the hierarchy.  Promotion is achieved by finishing in the top 2, or 3rd to 6th and winning the playoffs.  Top 6 is not the target, you are right…promotion is.

However, and I have no issues with this, that is a tough target to achieve, and not getting promoted does not mean Manning must be sacked / failure.  They have also given a sensible “meeting expectations” comment…broadly speaking, “be in the mix for promotion”, which starts to show alignment with Tinnion’s 10 points more.  I think most of us think somewhere around the top 6 with 73 points (+/- 2 or 3) would be good…which means you’ve got to be in the top-10 at worst.

Anything worse than that is underperforming, unless there is some serious mitigating factor.

At current pace, we are underperforming.  We now wait to see whether the “Hierarchy Monitoring Tool” has kicked into life yet.  My gut feel is no it hasn’t, we are 2 points off 10th, so it’s carry on.

Yeah, it's normally a run of defeats or a winless run that escalates matters with the board. 

If we lost the next 3 games I reckon it would be pretty tense.

[mozo]

Just now, lenred said:

You can mock me all you want but it’s what was stated.   And what is expected as outlined more eloquently above by Dave.  

It's not personal against you, obviously.

The reality is that sacking Manning isn't going to undo the things that were said and done last year. 

And if we sack Manning his replacement probably won't get a top 6 finish either.

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, mozo said:

 

Top 6 wasn't stated as the aim for this season?

Sorry, what's the question ?

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

Okay, but if top 6 is the aim and we are going to sack every Bristol City manager that looks unlikely to achieve that early in their first full season, expect a lot of chopping and changing!

Hasn't top 6 been replaced in pre-season with 'progress'?

Define progress. The last manager was taking giant steps progressively. Clearly not obviously enough for many posters on here or even the 3 wise men that run the football club.

[mozo]

2 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Define progress. The last manager was taking giant steps progressively. Clearly not obviously enough for many posters on here or even the 3 wise men that run the football club.

Yeah we've had league position and points progress across the last three consecutive seasons. So, continuing that should be a minimum.

[Mikjizzle]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

To be clear….promotion was the stated aim - this season.  Stated by all the hierarchy.  Promotion is achieved by finishing in the top 2, or 3rd to 6th and winning the playoffs.  Top 6 is not the target, you are right…promotion is.

However, and I have no issues with this, that is a tough target to achieve, and not getting promoted does not mean Manning must be sacked / failure.  They have also given a sensible “meeting expectations” comment…broadly speaking, “be in the mix for promotion”, which starts to show alignment with Tinnion’s 10 points more.  I think most of us think somewhere around the top 6 with 73 points (+/- 2 or 3) would be good…which means you’ve got to be in the top-10 at worst.

Anything worse than that is underperforming, unless there is some serious mitigating factor.

At current pace, we are underperforming.  We now wait to see whether the “Hierarchy Monitoring Tool” has kicked into life yet.  My gut feel is no it hasn’t, we are 2 points off 10th, so it’s carry on.

So if any manager going forward is not in the top half in their first full season after 9 games, going forward you think they should be sacked? I'd rather not become that club to be honest.

[Sir Geoff]

9 minutes ago, mozo said:

It's not personal against you, obviously.

The reality is that sacking Manning isn't going to undo the things that were said and done last year. 

And if we sack Manning his replacement probably won't get a top 6 finish either.

No but hopefully we will get someone with an idea of in game management, who doesn't openly lie, respects the fans, can set up a team to play reasonably attacking ('front foot football') etc, etc

[Sir Geoff]

1 minute ago, Mikjizzle said:

So if any manager going forward is not in the top half in their first full season after 9 games, going forward you think they should be sacked? I'd rather not become that club to be honest.

As has been pointed out numerous times, it's not just 9 games is it ?

[lenred]

8 minutes ago, Mikjizzle said:

So if any manager going forward is not in the top half in their first full season after 9 games

 It’s nearly a year.  It’s not just ‘9 games’.  

[mozo]

38 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

No but hopefully we will get someone with an idea of in game management, who doesn't openly lie, respects the fans, can set up a team to play reasonably attacking ('front foot football') etc, etc

They didn't get someone you like last time, so good luck next time 

[Peter Coles]

6 hours ago, hinsleburg said:

You're right, it was dramatic, the new matchday announcer is better than Downsy...

I stand by everything else, everything about this club is on a downwards trajectory and for you to not see it you must be part Ostrich with your head in the sand.

Cardiff were shit yesterday, absolutely shit and we made them look average. We're slower, more tedious, lose the ball in the wrong area more and don't ever look like scoring. How many open play goals have we scored this season? Even yesterday's goal I imagine Mcnally got a bollocking after for being that high up the pitch.

This stage last season we had a crazy amount of injuries but we had a team that worked their socks off and fought in every game for every minute. We had a clear playing style and given the individuals that were on the pitch arguably punched above our weight. We don't look interested half the time. We looked up for it first 10 minutes and were then woeful until they scored. We weren't even good after that we just fought more and showed more fight and emotion which goes against everything we're told they should be doing.

We're sleep walking into relegation, I don't think it will be this season but without a structural change it certainly will be next with a much bigger wage budget we may struggle to come back from. Off the pitch we're a joke, individuals promoted above their skillset and capability and no clear governance or leadership.

Who's to blame for us currently being shit in your opinion? And if we're so good, our players and playstyle much improved why aren't we top half? 

No wonder Steve has jumped ship to the rugby

[italian dave]

40 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

As has been pointed out numerous times, it's not just 9 games is it ?

 

34 minutes ago, lenred said:

 It’s nearly a year.  It’s not just ‘9 games’.  

No-one said it was “just 9 games”. They said “first full season after 9 games”. 

[bexhill reds]

3 hours ago, mozo said:

Was my explanation not clear?

I didn't say, let's wait until we fail.

I described how we should wait until we are certain that we are going to fail against a 46 game target. 

I didn't say we should do nothing. I said we should only sack him if we have a good plan for recruitment.

I think that's just rational. 

A team full of relatively inexperienced youngsters will be ill-equipped for any form of relegation fight and that pretty much sums up our current squad, therefore they should not be allowed to get anywhere near that position, hence I would act now, and look to appoint someone with actual real longer term league experience and not a one or two season wonder as is the case with Manning. 

There are no guarantees of success with any appointment but hanging about until we are certain of a problem is madness. Any new manager may look at the Jan window for horse trading so pointless appointing after that the window, and the games come so fast over Christmas that any new manager will have little time to change from whatever style of football that Manning is attempting to play now. 
 

Assuming the DOF has been sensible the club may already have looked at potential replacements, now is the time to sound those out. Yes sacking Manning will cost, but being relegated from the Championship will cost more.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

It's not personal against you, obviously.

The reality is that sacking Manning isn't going to undo the things that were said and done last year. 

And if we sack Manning his replacement probably won't get a top 6 finish either.

You are trying to construe this as not getting top 6 = sack.  It doesn’t.  You’ve heard from the hierarchy the tolerance to that, myself and others have stated that on this and other threads, so why are you making it a “6th or out” rhetoric?

1 hour ago, Mikjizzle said:

So if any manager going forward is not in the top half in their first full season after 9 games, going forward you think they should be sacked? I'd rather not become that club to be honest.

No, where did I say that?  That’s a weird take, no idea how you reached that conclusion.

Its nothing to do with 9 games (that’s just your straw man), it’s 40+, it’s direction of travel, its resources provided, etc.  it depends on the situation at point of appointment, it depends on targets set, etc.

 

 

 

[mozo]

19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You are trying to construe this as not getting top 6 = sack.  It doesn’t.  You’ve heard from the hierarchy the tolerance to that, myself and others have stated that on this and other threads, so why are you making it a “6th or out” rhetoric?

Not at all, I responded to Lenred on this thread, so comment related to my exchange with them.

If Lenred has a tolerance to finishing below 6th then they can explain that.

[BobBobBobbin]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You are trying to construe this as not getting top 6 = sack.  It doesn’t.  You’ve heard from the hierarchy the tolerance to that, myself and others have stated that on this and other threads, so why are you making it a “6th or out” rhetoric?

No, where did I say that?  That’s a weird take, no idea how you reached that conclusion.

Its nothing to do with 9 games (that’s just your straw man), it’s 40+, it’s direction of travel, its resources provided, etc.  it depends on the situation at point of appointment, it depends on targets set, etc.

 

 

 

exactly this, shame on you for applying nuance.

Each of Mannings flaws are tolerable in isolation, but when you look at the entire picture and the context it becomes a much less palatable situation. 

I'd tolerate 15th if there was evident progress on the pitch. If it looked like he was a nett gain. There are managers/coaches who would be able to get more out of what we have. As yet, over the 45 games he's been here, there's little to no sign of Manning improving on many (if any) of his flaws. 

so cut loose, admit we ****** up and move forward. 

imo.

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, mozo said:

They didn't get someone you like last time, so good luck next time 

For the record, I was ambivalent to Pearsons appointment and am on record many moons ag being against him when his name was mentioned post LJ. However over several months and many straight batted, honest, press conferences I grew to respect him and what he was trying to achieve for our club.

To be fair (and hey no surprise to anyone) I did not take immediately to Manning. I along with a couple of thousand others were at QPR for his first game which was so unnecessarily dull it left several 100 singing "one Nigel Pearson" on the way out. Since then he has done nothing to convince me that he gives a flying fig for Bristol City Football club or us supporters. His shortcomings are well documented and I really wish he was no longer our manager.

As for not liking him as you state. I don't give a flying fig for Liam Manning. I don't know him personally so have no reason to dislike him in that regard.

I just hope the next manager embraces the club and supporters, doesn’t lie and is someone else with integrity.

[One Team]

4 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

For the record, I was ambivalent to Pearsons appointment and am on record many moons ag being against him when his name was mentioned post LJ. However over several months and many straight batted, honest, press conferences I grew to respect him and what he was trying to achieve for our club.

To be fair (and hey no surprise to anyone) I did not take immediately to Manning. I along with a couple of thousand others were at QPR for his first game which was so unnecessarily dull it left several 100 singing "one Nigel Pearson" on the way out. Since then he has done nothing to convince me that he gives a flying fig for Bristol City Football club or us supporters. His shortcomings are well documented and I really wish he was no longer our manager.

As for not liking him as you state. I don't give a flying fig for Liam Manning. I don't know him personally so have no reason to dislike him in that regard.

I just hope the next manager embraces the club and supporters, doesn’t lie and is someone else with integrity.

A good post and I think right to point out he’s not really made any sort of connection with the fans, bar a fist pump if we win. 

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Its nothing to do with 9 games (that’s just your straw man), it’s 40+, it’s direction of travel, its resources provided, etc.  it depends on the situation at point of appointment, it depends on targets set, etc.

Last season gives us insight into Manning, but a season is it's own 46 game entity bookended by summer pre-season.

 

14 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

For the record, I was ambivalent to Pearsons appointment and am on record many moons ag being against him when his name was mentioned post LJ. However over several months and many straight batted, honest, press conferences I grew to respect him and what he was trying to achieve for our club.

To be fair (and hey no surprise to anyone) I did not take immediately to Manning. I along with a couple of thousand others were at QPR for his first game which was so unnecessarily dull it left several 100 singing "one Nigel Pearson" on the way out. Since then he has done nothing to convince me that he gives a flying fig for Bristol City Football club or us supporters. His shortcomings are well documented and I really wish he was no longer our manager.

As for not liking him as you state. I don't give a flying fig for Liam Manning. I don't know him personally so have no reason to dislike him in that regard.

I just hope the next manager embraces the club and supporters, doesn’t lie and is someone else with integrity.

We're not so different. Although I went the other way a little. I was hugely in favour of Nige being appointed and think he did some great rebuild work. But I did have frustration at times with the agricultural and slapdash football we played when the counter attacking at pave didn't go so well (just as Manningball is frustrating when the control doesn't deliver attacking play). 

But like you I had no skin in the game when Manning was appointed, other than wanting City to do well. I'd never heard of the bloke, but I probably prefer his style of football more than Nige, not that that matters at all. 

I like managers getting time. But that patience will have a breaking point of things don't improve throughput the season.

Regards the next guy, the responsibility will be with Tinnion and the Lansdowns so I won't get my my hopes up that they will take the best option.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, mozo said:

Last season gives us insight into Manning, but a season is it's own 46 game entity bookended by summer pre-season.

And?

Even LM sees it as a continuation.

[Sir Geoff]

3 minutes ago, mozo said:

Last season gives us insight into Manning, but a season is it's own 46 game entity bookended by summer pre-season.

 

We're not so different. Although I went the other way a little. I was hugely in favour of Nige being appointed and think he did some great rebuild work. But I did have frustration at times with the agricultural and slapdash football we played when the counter attacking at pave didn't go so well (just as Manningball is frustrating when the control doesn't deliver attacking play). 

But like you I had no skin in the game when Manning was appointed, other than wanting City to do well. I'd never heard of the bloke, but I probably prefer his style of football more than Nige, not that that matters at all. 

I like managers getting time. But that patience will have a breaking point of things don't improve throughput the season.

Regards the next guy, the responsibility will be with Tinnion and the Lansdowns so I won't get my my hopes up that they will take the best option.

I've never been knee jerk over sacking managers and am happy to give them time. However there comes a point where it clearly isn't working and for whatever reason there comes a time to put a halt to it. Myself along with many others could see this scenario (Liam given a sack load of cash to spend and still failing) last March. He now seems to be past the point of no return imo.

Ps I would have sacked Lumsden the day after he sold Bob Bob super bob because he didn't work hard enough off the ball.

[BobBobBobbin]

17 minutes ago, mozo said:

Last season gives us insight into Manning, but a season is it's own 46 game entity bookended by summer pre-season.

Herein lies the problem I have; for all my desire to be supportive of Manning I would have to ignore his own words and insights like above, tying myself in knots, to defend his record. 

 

[David Brent]

Let’s not forget the justification given for sacking our previous manager, whether you believe it or not. 

Based on that, and our summer of spending, I think we can expect to see a lot more. If that isn’t league position then it’s progress on the pitch. I’m seeing very little of that. We look worse imo. 

[mozo]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And?

Even LM sees it as a continuation.

And I was happy with 11th last season, despite the ups and downs, and saw enough in the football to imagine what was possible if Manning can get it to click.

But I look at this as a new season with a target of improvement, commencing with the Hull game. I will be patient and not let 9/10 games rattle me. 

Equally, if we start losing games and slide down the table, I won't reassure myself with the Southampton, Leicester or Blackburn games from last season. That's gone now.

 

[Ring]

There’s a lot of talk on here about how we’re better in certain areas, how we’re better than previous seasons. I appreciate all of these things. I also appreciate the stats that @Davefevs produces and think they’re impressive. A lot of you obviously know what you’re talking about and I get that. This isn’t an attempt to criticise any of you, far from it.

However, that’s not the only way to look at the game. Football isn’t just a numbers game.

Like many others, I don’t go to football to analyse the game and work out whether our stats are improving. I don’t go to compare the football with that under NP. I (partially) go to be entertained. I’ve watched City since the 70s and have been far more entertained by teams managed by Alan Dicks, Joe Jordan, Terry Cooper, even Gary Johnson.

I’ve been entertained by such footballing gods as Gerry Gow, Alan Walsh, Bob Taylor, Dziekanowski, Andy Cole. Even Luke Freeman and Wilbs.

There is nobody in the current team who matches up to any of those. Nobody who excites me.  An uninspiring manager has put together an uninspiring team, a team in his image.

It’s not about negativity for me, it’s about wasting a Saturday afternoon and coming away lots of money down. Having a headache where I’m so bored. Spending my hard earned money on people who don’t seem to be overly bothered, even though they have 20k plus people watching them work.

Ive lost all enthusiasm and can’t be bothered anymore. It seems that LM can’t be bothered either. Why should I feather SL’s nest any more than I already have?

Edited October 7 by Ring

[Mikjizzle]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

You are trying to construe this as not getting top 6 = sack.  It doesn’t.  You’ve heard from the hierarchy the tolerance to that, myself and others have stated that on this and other threads, so why are you making it a “6th or out” rhetoric?

No, where did I say that?  That’s a weird take, no idea how you reached that conclusion.

Its nothing to do with 9 games (that’s just your straw man), it’s 40+, it’s direction of travel, its resources provided, etc.  it depends on the situation at point of appointment, it depends on targets set, etc.

 

 

 

How is it a weird take- it was in response to you solely talking about the aims this season and how we were against a benchmark of promotion. You didn’t explain the other factors that you consider to be the metric for being sacked. 

But if Manning was sacked now I’d be happy to let a new manager see out the season and have their own full transfer window and have a proper crack at next season. 

Edited October 7 by Mikjizzle

[PFree]

It’s quite simple for me, is this Coach getting the best out of these players - ability development, motivation, tactics during matches, substitutions etc., and for me, it’s a definite no.

Dress it up however you want but the football in boring and unattractive plus we aren’t winning enough games..

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Mikjizzle said:

How is it a weird take- it was in response to you solely talking about the aims this season and how we were against a benchmark of promotion. You didn’t explain the other factors that you consider to be the metric for being sacked. 

But if Manning was sacked now I’d be happy to let a new manager see out the season and have their own full transfer window and have a proper crack at next season. 

You’re a long time lurker, you’ve read enough of my posts…and not once on this thread or any other have I said promotion is shit or bust for Manning.  If anything I’ve countered (Mozo amongst others) with the opposite.  Manning has slack around the promotion aim…and I think it is fair that he does too.  Promotion is a very challenging target.

Out of interest, how far into a season is a fair crack in your eyes.

+++++

FWIW as you’ll know if I was in charge I’d have got rid of him in March, circa 20 games in.  My “spidy senses”were tingling quite early.  I’ve learned little more in another 20.  But I’m not in charge, and I don’t boo, I support whilst at AG, nor will I call for him to be sacked either.  The board operate this club differently to how I would, that is their prerogative.  I hope I’m the one looking like a chump at some point.  It’s probably a bit of a strange way of looking at it I admit.

[robin_unreliant]

1 hour ago, Ring said:

There’s a lot of talk on here about how we’re better in certain areas, how we’re better than previous seasons. I appreciate all of these things. I also appreciate the stats that @Davefevs produces and think they’re impressive. A lot of you obviously know what you’re talking about and I get that. This isn’t an attempt to criticise any of you, far from it.

However, that’s not the only way to look at the game. Football isn’t just a numbers game.

Like many others, I don’t go to football to analyse the game and work out whether our stats are improving. I don’t go to compare the football with that under NP. I (partially) go to be entertained. I’ve watched City since the 70s and have been far more entertained by teams managed by Alan Dicks, Joe Jordan, Terry Cooper, even Gary Johnson.

I’ve been entertained by such footballing gods as Gerry Gow, Alan Walsh, Bob Taylor, Dziekanowski, Andy Cole. Even Luke Freeman and Wilbs.

There is nobody in the current team who matches up to any of those. Nobody who excites me.  An uninspiring manager has put together an uninspiring team, a team in his image.

It’s not about negativity for me, it’s about wasting a Saturday afternoon and coming away lots of money down. Having a headache where I’m so bored. Spending my hard earned money on people who don’t seem to be overly bothered, even though they have 20k plus people watching them work.

Ive lost all enthusiasm and can’t be bothered anymore. It seems that LM can’t be bothered either. Why should I feather SL’s nest any more than I already have?

As someone whose introduction to AG was in the AD promotion season I get what you're saying. I think some of it is about the modern game, rather than just the standard of players here though.

Defending is  much more organised and players are fitter these days. Much harder for attackers to thrive and mavericks aren't really allowed any more. Gerry Gow would probably get a red card most weeks.

I agree with you that the excitement isn't the same but I feel the same way about England. I'm afraid football just isn't the same these days. I too find I'm less bothered about City and England too.

[Ring]

2 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

As someone whose introduction to AG was in the AD promotion season I get what you're saying. I think some of it is about the modern game, rather than just the standard of players here though.

Defending is  much more organised and players are fitter these days. Much harder for attackers to thrive and mavericks aren't really allowed any more. Gerry Gow would probably get a red card most weeks.

I agree with you that the excitement isn't the same but I feel the same way about England. I'm afraid football just isn't the same these days. I too find I'm less bothered about City and England too.

I understand the point you’re making. I also don’t find watching England as exciting as I used to. It’s partially an age thing too.

However… It’s a surprising thing to say, but even with the restraints that were in place under NP, the football served up was more exciting than this. 
 

It’s not all about a direct comparison with the 70s. I know that I can still be excited by watching City. I can’t get excited by watching THIS City though.

It’s about cohesiveness, passion and commitment. A set of players who are coached so that they know what they’re doing and know what to expect from their team mates. 
 

I can’t get excited about other teams, just City, because they’re my team. It leaves a bad taste when LM serves up such dross on a regular basis.

I’ll come back when he’s gone, but I can’t waste any more of my money or time on watching shite. As I said, it’s about entertainment for me.

[Ivorguy]

5 hours ago, bexhill reds said:

A team full of relatively inexperienced youngsters will be ill-equipped for any form of relegation fight and that pretty much sums up our current squad, therefore they should not be allowed to get anywhere near that position, hence I would act now, and look to appoint someone with actual real longer term league experience and not a one or two season wonder as is the case with Manning. 

There are no guarantees of success with any appointment but hanging about until we are certain of a problem is madness. Any new manager may look at the Jan window for horse trading so pointless appointing after that the window, and the games come so fast over Christmas that any new manager will have little time to change from whatever style of football that Manning is attempting to play now. 
 

Assuming the DOF has been sensible the club may already have looked at potential replacements, now is the time to sound those out. Yes sacking Manning will cost, but being relegated from the Championship will cost more.

Yes and whose fault is it that Manning going will cost?!!

[Superjack]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

At current pace, we are underperforming.  We now wait to see whether the “Hierarchy Monitoring Tool” has kicked into life yet.  My gut feel is no it hasn’t, we are 2 points off 10th, so it’s carry on.

The hierarchy are monitoring **** all, Dave.

They have got rid of the 'nasty man' and have cosied up with their blue-eyed blonde boy that Steve can take home to Maggie. 

And they don't give a **** what you or I, or any of the 'unwashed plebs' think about it. 

What I think is that they can **** off.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Superjack said:

The hierarchy are monitoring **** all, Dave.

They have got rid of the 'nasty man' and have cosied up with their blue-eyed blonde boy that Steve can take home to Maggie. 

And they don't give a **** what you or I, or any of the 'unwashed plebs' think about it. 

What I think is that they can **** off.

I tend to agree.

[W-S-M Seagull]

14 hours ago, mozo said:

I'm not convinced the new manager bounce is an actual thing, anyway.

 

 

What the new manager bounce is that the old manager was failing to get the best out of his squad. Players became worse etc. Sound familiar? 

So when the new man takes over what you actually see is players performing to their actual ability.