Drop the Prima Donna

[lenred]

13 minutes ago, ciderwithtommy said:

What did people expect? £3m for a known quantity attacker at this level will get you a guy who is ok at this level, he isn’t “marquee” for the championship. He is creating chances at the rate I would expect him to, and might nick 10 goals total if he has purple spell. He is exactly what I thought he would be, and I believe if he had a better “9” with him he would improve. Shouldn’t be a whipping boy - far from our biggest issue. 

He was closer to £4m wasn’t he? 

[EmersonsKev]

33 minutes ago, BobBobBobbin said:

8 big chances created, 21 chances total and 1.9 xA from those. So averaging less than 0.1 xA per chance. in other words, shite chances. 

 

Big chances is a nonsense stat. 

Indeed it's a nonsense stat when it doesn't suit someones agenda. 

 

The agenda at present is to point the finger at Twine because he's been highlighted as the missing piece of the jigsaw and isn't working way others thought it should. 

 

Stat still remains, but changing the manager isn't an option nor is bashing players every game. 

[Sir Geoff]

12 hours ago, lenred said:

Nope!! Been grinding my gears for a few weeks now.   One of those players that I used to hate playing with.   Think they’re better than everyone else (he’s not - far from it) and as a result think that gives them a right to bitch and moan at everyone and everything.  He’s weak as piss as well.  But if he put as much effort into the betterment of the team as he does into his various antics we’d be a lot better off.  

Highlighted by his half arsed tackle when he got injured just before Pring. He got clattered for being weak, his foot was nowhere near the ball. Cardiff player wanted it more.

[Davefevs]

43 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

Several occasions in the first half yesterday were he was between the lines of cardiffs defence and midfield, but our midfielders just ignore it.

The amount of times our midfielders can turn and go forward, but instead turn the opposite way and slow it down is starting to infuriate me. Manning is doing Twine no favours with his tactics 

He can’t always be passed to, he still got a good number of passes into him in final third.

I don’t think he’s been awful, but we need more from him, and some of the stuff he dies as per @BobBobBobbin is not helping his overall contribution.

[Red Army 75]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He can’t always be passed to, he still got a good number of passes into him in final third.

I don’t think he’s been awful, but we need more from him, and some of the stuff he dies as per @BobBobBobbin is not helping his overall contribution.

Absolutely he can be better Dave, just my perception first half yesterday, the time we did do it. He turned slid Armstrong through who ended up hitting nothing. He was in that pocket of space majority of first half 

[SecretSam]

To be fair, if Armstrong had taken that chance that Twine set up, everything might look different. 

Personally, I don't think the Yu - Twine - Mehmeti trio works - but I'm not sure what would be better.

[Silvio Dante]

15 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

Would like to know how those stats are collated. The killer is that it only equates to 1 assist, compared to far higher for the other players listed. Could be a reflection of our finishing or that they are counting corners and free kicks, as well as open play.

Twine did nothing much in Wednesday, when 34 year old Barry Bannan was clearly the best player on the pitch and so far more with the ball than Twine. While today is contribution was similarly minimal, other than a lot of moaning at the referee, who to be fair was Bobby Marley being even more useless than usual.

I wondered that as well reference “big chances” Looking through, the best I’ve found is an Opta definition which is below.  The other thing there is that xG probably supercedes that.

So I suppose the question is twofold:

- Has Scott, this season, created 9 chances in the evidence of eyes where players could be reasonably expected to score? I’m not sure he has which makes the stat a bit doubtful.

- If you overlay the xG of Scott’s “chances” and those others in the table then the kicker would be whether those others were creating a better xG per chance - ie they all may be in “big” chances but if Scott’s are 0.4 and the others are 0.7 it’s apples with oranges.

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I wondered that as well reference “big chances” Looking through, the best I’ve found is an Opta definition which is below.  The other thing there is that xG probably supercedes that.

So I suppose the question is twofold:

- Has Scott, this season, created 9 chances in the evidence of eyes where players could be reasonably expected to score? I’m not sure he has which makes the stat a bit doubtful.

- If you overlay the xG of Scott’s “chances” and those others in the table then the kicker would be whether those others were creating a better xG per chance - ie they all may be in “big” chances but if Scott’s are 0.4 and the others are 0.7 it’s apples with oranges.

I think by virtue of the words above, opta will deem any shot with xG > 0.25….which makes a bit of a mockery of the word “expected”.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, EmersonsKev said:

but changing the manager isn't an option

One word.

Why?

[Harry]

58 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He can’t always be passed to, he still got a good number of passes into him in final third.

I don’t think he’s been awful, but we need more from him, and some of the stuff he dies as per @BobBobBobbin is not helping his overall contribution.

For a team that had 60% possession and made 510 passes, did we really only manage to pass it to our marquee creative player 9 times in the opposition half???!! 
That’s shocking. 
Why aren’t we trying to feed him more. 
As all of our eyes tell us, he HAS created some very good chances this season. 
And my eyes also see the same as @Red Army 75 above - he’s finding the spaces, we’re just not getting it to him (for immediate reference have a look at Mehmeti’s shot from 30 yards yesterday and also when Mehmeti tried to pass to Sinclair in the box when Twine was in an acre asking for a square ball which would have given him a great shooting opportunity. 
 

Regards the ‘stats’ debate. People can query the way the stats are assessed as much as they want, but ultimately they are assessed in exactly the same way for all players in the league. It’s not just Twine they are assessing here! So if he’s at the top end of the stats that’s because he’s at the top end of the stats. All other players on the list are assessed in exactly the same way - so it is very much like for like. 
 

As for comments about being weak in the tackle and diving etc. Come on chaps, we’ve signed a 9 stone weakling for his creative talents, not for his crunching tackles!! He’s not gonna tackle like Williams and he’s not gonna run 15k like Knight. That’s not his game. 
As for diving. Did anyone criticise Bird yesterday for his ridiculous dive?? Re backchat to the ref - really!! Who really honestly has a problem with a player trying to influence officials? It’s something we’ve lacked as a team for bloody years!! Get into the refs ear, make him think. I see nothing wrong with that at all. 

[EmersonsKev]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

One word.

Why?

Beacuse he's had this set of players for 5 minutes, a whole raft of new signings that require time to "bed in" am I happy with the attacking intent at the moment? No not at all. 

 

I'm proud of our football club for being known to give coaches time.

 

We live in a world where everyone wants everything yesterday but the finger pointing a berating helps no one. 

 

I'm looking forward to the fans forum, perfect chance for people to ask direct questions to those at the top table. 

[italian dave]

15 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

The issue for me is the discrepancy between Manning’s apparent intent versus the players he signs.

We want to defend from the front but we sign Twine. We want a goal scoring forward and we sign Armstrong. We want to play out from the back and we sign McNally.

It’s easy to criticise the individual players - and I am not saying they are without fault - but ultimately the players we have signed have the exact strengths and weaknesses that were apparent before we signed them. And yet we keep signing players who are not suited to the system we want them to play in the belief they are somehow going to prove to be the exact fit for the system we want to play.

I'm not sure "goalscoring forward" was what was said: wasn't it "big, strong forward". we got that - maybe that was our mistake; overlooking the first one .  

Seriously, I think we wanted a couple of 10 goal strikers (which, arguably, we have potentially got) but alongside that goals from elsewhere. We've got half a dozen other players with half a dozen goals each in them - but they're not delivering.

McNally I think had an element of panic about it - certainly in terms of a long spell in the side - when it because clear that Dickie and Atkinson were out for a while.

Our system certainly wanted players with the ability that enabled us to play it through the middle as an option: able to find space, pick out runners, pinpoint a pass. To be fair, I think we've done that - arguably ended up with too many, although I've no doubt that injuries/suspensions will affect that view over the season.

But it doesn't feel like we're not entirely sure what our best staring XI is just now, and quite how to use what we've got to best effect - agree.

[italian dave]

13 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

Sorry but the diving and the rolling around, the constant griping to the referee, haranguing team mates when he hasn’t done what he should have defensively, including going AWOL when Cardiff were giving it a go early in the second half, all smacks of a player who thinks he is so much better than everyone else in the team. Hence the term I used and from the number of responses, I would assume quite a few others see it the same way.

The old adage that “there is no I in team” still stands. Twine may be the best player in the squad creatively but it’s just not working at the moment, as the lack of goals reflects. I actually think he would work better with Mayulu as a lone forward in front of him than Armstrong, certainly in terms of the finishing. The way we play with Armstrong also negates having Twine at 10 anyway as it’s long balls over the top for Sinclair to chase after, 1 on 1 with a defender.

For me, there's more to agree with here than there was in your opening post, Dr B.

I don't like the arm waving and the pointless protests to the officials. I'm not sure he 'dives' (at least no more than others) but he does draw fouls - we used to admire that in Alex Scott. And he does so particularly when he's within his free kick range - for obvious reasons. I don't have too much of a problem with that.

I don't think you (and I'm referring to other posters here rather than you personally) can ignore the stats of two separate independent football statisticians simply because they portray an inconvenient set of figures that doesn't support the completely unscientific view many posters on here have! He does create chances. And I think the point @Davefevs made above is also significant; he'll do that better when he's given the ball: he's not bad at drifting around and finding space in quite crowded midfield areas - something we've not had for some time. Knight did it a few times yesterday, Bird does it when he plays deeper (but that gives us other problems). But at Derby - for example - we had him and Bird both playing in that 10 role and neither of them being given any sort of ball at all. 

I'm coming round to that view that we try starting with Mayulu (even though it didn't work v Coventry in the cup). And maybe even with Armstrong out wide in place of Mehmeti - not only do those long balls over the top go over Twine, but more often than not he ends up chasing them down the left anyway (happened 2 or 3 times yesterday).

Don't like the name calling though. He's our player. That's what we call Cardiff players, not our own!

[Charlie BCFC]

17 hours ago, Harry said:

Twine is being overly criticised in my view. 
Again, he puts a pinpoint through ball for Armstrong today (this has happened frequently this season, not just to Armstrong but others too). 
 

Twine could very easily have 5 assists this season. It’s not exaggerating to say that. He’s laid on some good chances. 
 

Can he do more? Absolutely. Is he under more pressure to perform because of the price tag and the fanfare? Absolutely. 
Has he created enough chances so far this season to warrant a few assists? Absolutely. 
 

He’s not the worst performing player this season - by a bloody long way. 

 Completely agree with this, I actually thought he was decent yesterday. Atleast he wanted to make something happen, as you say if half of the chances he creates go in then he’s up there for the most assists in the division. Then people would be looking at his performances differently 

[eardun]

3 hours ago, ciderwithtommy said:

What did people expect? £3m for a known quantity attacker at this level will get you a guy who is ok at this level, he isn’t “marquee” for the championship. He is creating chances at the rate I would expect him to, and might nick 10 goals total if he has purple spell. He is exactly what I thought he would be, and I believe if he had a better “9” with him he would improve. Shouldn’t be a whipping boy - far from our biggest issue. 

And none of the other players we signed in the summer are ready-made top championship players either - they are all players that we hope to improve. So I struggle with the expectations of some fans after 9 games. 

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

For a team that had 60% possession and made 510 passes, did we really only manage to pass it to our marquee creative player 9 times in the opposition half???!! 
That’s shocking. 
Why aren’t we trying to feed him more. 
As all of our eyes tell us, he HAS created some very good chances this season. 
And my eyes also see the same as @Red Army 75 above - he’s finding the spaces, we’re just not getting it to him (for immediate reference have a look at Mehmeti’s shot from 30 yards yesterday and also when Mehmeti tried to pass to Sinclair in the box when Twine was in an acre asking for a square ball which would have given him a great shooting opportunity. 
 

Regards the ‘stats’ debate. People can query the way the stats are assessed as much as they want, but ultimately they are assessed in exactly the same way for all players in the league. It’s not just Twine they are assessing here! So if he’s at the top end of the stats that’s because he’s at the top end of the stats. All other players on the list are assessed in exactly the same way - so it is very much like for like. 
 

As for comments about being weak in the tackle and diving etc. Come on chaps, we’ve signed a 9 stone weakling for his creative talents, not for his crunching tackles!! He’s not gonna tackle like Williams and he’s not gonna run 15k like Knight. That’s not his game. 
As for diving. Did anyone criticise Bird yesterday for his ridiculous dive?? Re backchat to the ref - really!! Who really honestly has a problem with a player trying to influence officials? It’s something we’ve lacked as a team for bloody years!! Get into the refs ear, make him think. I see nothing wrong with that at all. 

The player has created big chances in a team that is inconsistently performing.

60% possession and not playing the ball frequently to the teams player maker who did create a big chance with minimal possession received.

Who are the teams leaders upholding the system of play? What system of play is this? Its possession football without clear identity. Lots of possession sometimes with minimal penetration. In the 4- 2 out of the 4-2-3-1  who are the line breakers on the ball? Ball the team has lots of going up and across and back in their U shape? There is not a clear leader on the ball to penetrate frequently and get the skill (Twine) on the ball. Bristol City's football at this point lacks clear intent. The what are we doing with the possession. 

Alternative thought - Twine might be doing more than alright with meagre means. Reflect on what is going on around him. 

Edited October 7 by Cowshed

[DaveInSA]

:laugh:. I was in the Lansdown for the first half.

Twine and others were sat in pockets of space with a SIMPLE pass from the midfield or defence. Our players have either been told not to play through the lines OR they couldn’t see the pass. Rather going for the safe option back or across.

Either way, it’s worrying.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Harry said:

For a team that had 60% possession and made 510 passes, did we really only manage to pass it to our marquee creative player 9 times in the opposition half???!! 
That’s shocking. 
Why aren’t we trying to feed him more. 
As all of our eyes tell us, he HAS created some very good chances this season. 
And my eyes also see the same as @Red Army 75 above - he’s finding the spaces, we’re just not getting it to him (for immediate reference have a look at Mehmeti’s shot from 30 yards yesterday and also when Mehmeti tried to pass to Sinclair in the box when Twine was in an acre asking for a square ball which would have given him a great shooting opportunity. 
 

Regards the ‘stats’ debate. People can query the way the stats are assessed as much as they want, but ultimately they are assessed in exactly the same way for all players in the league. It’s not just Twine they are assessing here! So if he’s at the top end of the stats that’s because he’s at the top end of the stats. All other players on the list are assessed in exactly the same way - so it is very much like for like. 
 

As for comments about being weak in the tackle and diving etc. Come on chaps, we’ve signed a 9 stone weakling for his creative talents, not for his crunching tackles!! He’s not gonna tackle like Williams and he’s not gonna run 15k like Knight. That’s not his game. 
As for diving. Did anyone criticise Bird yesterday for his ridiculous dive?? Re backchat to the ref - really!! Who really honestly has a problem with a player trying to influence officials? It’s something we’ve lacked as a team for bloody years!! Get into the refs ear, make him think. I see nothing wrong with that at all. 

Harry, as you‘ll know, much of my evaluation of Twine is against expectancy rather than comparison with his teammates.  I expect more from him, because of the role he is given.

I also, like you, don’t think he’s been awful, just not as good as I need him to be in the system / role he has.

However, as you know, I keep coming back to “system”.

I don’t have a stat (easily extractable) that shows passes in final third, but I do have opposition half and Passes into box.  Data after midweek games.

Look at the drop off:

City:

245.1 passes in opp half (avg)

12.75 passes into area (avg)

Staggering - 5.2%!

Champ Average:

193.6 / 11.4 (5.9%)

The whole division is suffering from too much passing outside of the key areas (simplistic view).

 

 

[Silvio Dante]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Harry, as you‘ll know, much of my evaluation of Twine is against expectancy rather than comparison with his teammates.  I expect more from him, because of the role he is given.

 

 

I think the “bit” here is, as I think @BobBobBobbin stated the other day, the net gain you get from Twine. It’s a side that is set up to play through him (debate/discuss whether we do that enough) and as a result he should be creating chances, and good ones. Is he doing enough of that? Probably not. If you take yesterday, there was the one chance for Armstrong but the one that sticks out was where it really opened out for him first half and he played a ball that from my angle slightly behind Mehmeti when he had better options - including the shot that was on.

If you then balance with what he gives you outside of that - we know when he plays left he unbalances the side, we know he’s not the most exuberant presser, we know that if he’s not creating (and yes I know the big chance stat) he’s not doing much. So is he doing enough to take us down to (at best) 10.5 players during the game when he’s not on the ball? Nope.

If you add in there that the attitude does stink IMO. He got taken off yesterday in front of me and he looked incredulous as he saw his number. I’m ok with disappointment - he looked affronted. He does dive (badly) and then sits and gets in a huff when the game is going on around him - again taking his team down a body! And the petulance and appealing is boy who cried wolf. Refs will not be predisposed to him - particularly when (as at Derby) he got a decision then moaned for 30 seconds he didn’t get the opponent booked!

And it would be churlish to state that there isn’t potentially a degree of he’s “Mannings man” from some. From my view it’s not that - it’s that he was indifferent on loan, so I expected a good pro to acknowledge that (not publicly) and come in and prove the doubters wrong with work rate and performance (and I mean working, not expecting him to be a Joe Williams though). And against Millwall, he had a rocket up his arse and did that - he was putting it in for the team and the fans.

And since then…he’s gone back to being petulant. Lazy. Impudent. It was almost like “right lads, you idolise me now. Job done”

Hes not giving enough. Not based on his price tag and role, but even more damningly, not for his team mates. And certainly not for each and every person in Ashton Gate.

[Jose]

2 hours ago, DaveInSA said:

:laugh:. I was in the Lansdown for the first half.

Twine and others were sat in pockets of space with a SIMPLE pass from the midfield or defence. Our players have either been told not to play through the lines OR they couldn’t see the pass. Rather going for the safe option back or across.

Either way, it’s worrying.

Here lies the problem. Williams are Knight are too slow and not good enough with the ball at their feet. Prime example was when Armstrong would have been clean through in the first half if Knight would of just got his head up and made a 15 yard pass forward. It wasnt difficult but he held onto it and played the safe pass. 
 

I realise had he made the pass, Armstrong would have missed anyway so perhaps not the best example……..

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, Jose said:

Here lies the problem. Williams are Knight are too slow and not good enough with the ball at their feet. Prime example was when Armstrong would have been clean through in the first half if Knight would of just got his head up and made a 15 yard pass forward. It wasnt difficult but he held onto it and played the safe pass. 
 

I realise had he made the pass, Armstrong would have missed anyway so perhaps not the best example……..

Bird is better wirh the ball at his feet than those 2.

[Silvio Dante]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Bird is better wirh the ball at his feet than those 2.

And can I just say if everyone thinks back to the start of the season where we were all delighted as to how Max Bird was playing a certain individual hadn’t been shoehorned into the side. In fact, Birds first poor game came when a certain individual decided playing on the left wasn’t for him at Derby* and decided he’d rather be central, both taking Birds space and isolating Cam Pring…
 

*And if it was coaches orders, that’s equally as damning

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

And can I just say if everyone thinks back to the start of the season where we were all delighted as to how Max Bird was playing a certain individual hadn’t been shoehorned into the side. In fact, Birds first poor game came when a certain individual decided playing on the left wasn’t for him at Derby* and decided he’d rather be central, both taking Birds space and isolating Cam Pring…
 

*And if it was coaches orders, that’s equally as damning

Yes we were, from pre-season and Willem into the first few games he was excellent. That rather unbalanced the side, Twine in that role!

Our Possession stats are fine but ball circulation minus Bird, I'm sure it can't help. Sometimes I've wondered about..

   Naismith

  Bird Knight

Sykes           Yu

 Armstrong/Mayulu

How do we fit Twine in? There is a big problem with that..

For other games

   Bird Knight

Sykes Earthy Yu

 Armstrong/Mayulu

Edited October 7 by Mr Popodopolous

[Dr Balls]

Back to winning ways with the original 3 in midfield from the start of the season - Bird, Williams and Knight. And by all accounts a better all round team performance without Twine. Just saying!

[steveybadger]

9 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Back to winning ways with the original 3 in midfield from the start of the season - Bird, Williams and Knight. And by all accounts a better all round team performance without Twine. Just saying!

Today yes, other games we’ll need him. It’s  a squad game.

[NDW4CITY]

5 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Back to winning ways with the original 3 in midfield from the start of the season - Bird, Williams and Knight. And by all accounts a better all round team performance without Twine. Just saying!

Agreed, but still trying to take the long view with Twine. I didn’t necessarily support spending basically the whole summer and a good chunk of the budget on Twine, based on his loan performances, but equally, chances are he’s still going to be selected when fit. The coaching team need to solve this riddle, for their sake and for Twine’s.

[Dr Balls]

6 minutes ago, NDW4CITY said:

Agreed, but still trying to take the long view with Twine. I didn’t necessarily support spending basically the whole summer and a good chunk of the budget on Twine, based on his loan performances, but equally, chances are he’s still going to be selected when fit. The coaching team need to solve this riddle, for their sake and for Twine’s.

The worry has always been that Twine is a “luxury player” in a team that can’t afford to take too many luxuries.

[NDW4CITY]

1 minute ago, Dr Balls said:

The worry has always been that Twine is a “luxury player” in a team that can’t afford to take too many luxuries.

True that..the press actually worked for periods today, with Knight in that spot. I think if you surrounded Twine with very good players he’d probably do ok. That ain’t us though.

[steviestevieneville]

1 minute ago, Dr Balls said:

The worry has always been that Twine is a “luxury player” in a team that can’t afford to take too many luxuries.

100% you can’t carry anyone in the championship , especially a mid table side. I don’t want to see knight at 10 if I’m honest , however he panics defenders . We will not have scored those goals today with twine in the side . Twine hasn’t got the engine to press & track like I knight does . I’ve seen the argument that “ well it’s not his game” no it’s not, so why did we sign him then . We’re not good enough to carry a player 

[Silvio Dante]

21 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Back to winning ways with the original 3 in midfield from the start of the season - Bird, Williams and Knight. And by all accounts a better all round team performance without Twine. Just saying!

As I put on another thread:

Games with Twine starting - 7 games, 1 win, 2 losses, 4 draws

Games with Twine not starting - 3 games, 2 wins, 0 losses, 1 draw (noting he came on in one win and scored)

It’s not about Scott. It’s about what his impact is on the team and whether we’re better collectively with or without him. I always here think of Ross McCormack who in one season scored 28 goals for Leeds but they finished 16th. Now, you can say he was doing his job, but because he offered nothing outside of the goals the impact the goals gave was reduced - in effect him playing outside of the goals made them less as a team.

That’s what it is with Scott. He is, and I’ll admit this, a technically very good footballer with great vision. But at this level, against better opponents, he’s not a leading player unless the team is both built around him and has real quality over the opponents. It’s notable that the side who had the latter of those chose not to do the former, and that says where he really is as a player.

[Robbored]

19 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Today yes, other games we’ll need him. It’s  a squad game.

Indeed we will.

Twine is very decent Championship midfielder but like everyone else will need to earn his place. City winning away without him certainly won’t help his cause.

That said with another Championship game away at Stoke he could well feature on Tuesday assuming he’s fit and much depends on if any of Citys midfield picked up any knocks today………

[Silvio Dante]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Indeed we will.

Twine is very decent Championship midfielder but like everyone else will need to earn his place. City winning away without him certainly won’t help his cause.

That said with another Championship game away at Stoke he could well feature on Tuesday assuming he’s fit and much depends on if any of Citys midfield picked up any knocks today………

Missed the bit where he’s out for weeks (minimum) then…

[pongo88]

32 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

The worry has always been that Twine is a “luxury player” in a team that can’t afford to take too many luxuries.

There are a multitude of definitions of “luxury” but the one that I feel applies to Twine is “often expensive but not necessary”

 

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

The worry has always been that Twine is a “luxury player” in a team that can’t afford to take too many luxuries.

I have a similar view.  Put him in a good side that can accommodate, great.  But we aren’t that side.

@Silvio Dante This is how the team have performed whilst Twine was on the pitch:

 

 

[Robbored]

15 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Missed the bit where he’s out for weeks (minimum) then…

I did miss that bit of information probably when I was in Portugal.

[steviestevieneville]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I have a similar view.  Put him in a good side that can accommodate, great.  But we aren’t that side.

@Silvio Dante This is how the team have performed whilst Twine was on the pitch:

 

 

I agree . He would have been better off at Burnley . A team that will dominate the ball against the vast majority of sides in our league . We lose the ball far too much for him to influence us. Jason knight does suit us though. This once again goes back to tinnion . If he wanted to get rid of NP fine , but you then have to get a manager to fit the way we played , rather than completely change the squad to fit a system we weren’t used to . It never made sense. I’m quite harsh on max bird at the moment , because he doesn’t suit us at our best either . Not his fault , I just don’t see where he fits in . You seen the best of us today as a counter attacking team, not possession based. 

[Davefevs]

Just now, steviestevieneville said:

I agree . He would have been better off at Burnley . A team that will dominate the ball against the vast majority of sides in our league . We lose the ball far too much for him to influence us. Jason knight does suit us though. This once again goes back to tinnion . If he wanted to get rid of NP fine , but you then have to get a manager to fit the way we played , rather than completely change the squad to fit a system we weren’t used to . It never made sense. I’m quite harsh on max bird at the moment , because he doesn’t suit us at our best either . Not his fault , I just don’t see where he fits in . You seen the best of us today as a counter attacking team, not possession based. 

And this will sound churlish (it’s not meant to), but we win today by executing a press well a couple of times, and then defending well (earned the right to defend a 2-0 lead).  Not through attacking patterns, or anything like that.

And fair play to Hogg in his interview, accepting / admitting that wasn’t the game plan, we didn’t execute what he planned, but also fair play for finding a different way to get the result.

[Silvio Dante]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I did miss that bit of information probably when I was in Portugal.

Yeah, the World Wide Web is horribly misnamed as it means information freely available here isn’t available in Portugal.

Its a bloody minefield.

[1960maaan]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I have a similar view.  Put him in a good side that can accommodate, great.  But we aren’t that side.

@Silvio Dante This is how the team have performed whilst Twine was on the pitch:

 

 

I may be repeating myself , but IMO we can't accommodate the 3 "luxury" players ( bit harsh I know). I think Twine may work with Sykes and Bird as the wide(r) men . Players more AMF than wingers . They could make up for some of his failings.
Playing 2 wingers AND Twine puts a lot of pressure on the midfield and defending from the front is just a pipe dream.
I'd try 4-3-1-2 , bulk the MF and give Twine 2 targets , but that's just me and I wanted to try 2 strikers under Pearson too.

[1960maaan]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Yeah, the World Wide Web is horribly misnamed as it means information freely available here isn’t available in Portugal.

Its a bloody minefield.

Beat me to it 

[CodeRed]

14 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I did miss that bit of information probably when I was in Portugal.

It was announced this morning by Chris Hogg!

 

 

[BeggyBlaggers]

58 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

As I put on another thread:

Games with Twine starting - 7 games, 1 win, 2 losses, 4 draws

Games with Twine not starting - 3 games, 2 wins, 0 losses, 1 draw (noting he came on in one win and scored)

It’s not about Scott. It’s about what his impact is on the team and whether we’re better collectively with or without him. I always here think of Ross McCormack who in one season scored 28 goals for Leeds but they finished 16th. Now, you can say he was doing his job, but because he offered nothing outside of the goals the impact the goals gave was reduced - in effect him playing outside of the goals made them less as a team.

That’s what it is with Scott. He is, and I’ll admit this, a technically very good footballer with great vision. But at this level, against better opponents, he’s not a leading player unless the team is both built around him and has real quality over the opponents. It’s notable that the side who had the latter of those chose not to do the former, and that says where he really is as a player.

Whereas i get stats are important....twine scored the winning goal in one of the games he didnt start.

[Robbored]

7 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Yeah, the World Wide Web is horribly misnamed as it means information freely available here isn’t available in Portugal.

It’s a bloody minefield.

Plenty of other distractions in the Algarve Silvio. The only time I looked online was to check the score on the two home matches that I missed.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, BeggyBlaggers said:

Whereas i get stats are important....twine scored the winning goal in one of the games he didnt start.

I’m sure my post you quoted said that

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

It was announced this morning by Chris Hogg!

I wasn’t online CR - plenty of other distractions in Nailsea.

[Rob k]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

As I put on another thread:

Games with Twine starting - 7 games, 1 win, 2 losses, 4 draws

Games with Twine not starting - 3 games, 2 wins, 0 losses, 1 draw (noting he came on in one win and scored)

It’s not about Scott. It’s about what his impact is on the team and whether we’re better collectively with or without him. I always here think of Ross McCormack who in one season scored 28 goals for Leeds but they finished 16th. Now, you can say he was doing his job, but because he offered nothing outside of the goals the impact the goals gave was reduced - in effect him playing outside of the goals made them less as a team.

That’s what it is with Scott. He is, and I’ll admit this, a technically very good footballer with great vision. But at this level, against better opponents, he’s not a leading player unless the team is both built around him and has real quality over the opponents. It’s notable that the side who had the latter of those chose not to do the former, and that says where he really is as a player.

How do those same stats look for last season? 

[ashton_fan]

Twine did well for us during our good end-of-season run last season and he's creating plenty of good chances when I've seen him at AG, not his fault that the forwards aren't putting them in. He certainly worries other teams and his delivery from set pieces is excellent. It's a shame people are using our positive result today to assume negative vibes about Twine just because he was injured.

[steviestevieneville]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And this will sound churlish (it’s not meant to), but we win today by executing a press well a couple of times, and then defending well (earned the right to defend a 2-0 lead).  Not through attacking patterns, or anything like that.

And fair play to Hogg in his interview, accepting / admitting that wasn’t the game plan, we didn’t execute what he planned, but also fair play for finding a different way to get the result.

Agree. He admitted we wanted more of the ball but couldn’t & we found a way . Possibly a chat for another day but everyone wants to play the “pep” way . Perhaps not the game plan but this time as it was last season but the same outcome. We scored two goals buy pressing them very high up the pitch . It was good for Hogg to be honest but also shows flaws in the initial game plan a bit.

I really did like him going to a 541 ish second half  of the second half . Thought we saw the game out comfortably after that . Better use of subs as well . 

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, ashton_fan said:

Twine did well for us during our good end-of-season run last season and he's creating plenty of good chances when I've seen him at AG, not his fault that the forwards aren't putting them in. He certainly worries other teams and his delivery from set pieces is excellent. It's a shame people are using our positive result today to assume negative vibes about Twine just because he was injured.

He really didn’t. 
 

If you want to go over old ground, in those eight games he played exceptionally in one (Rotherham), absolutely scandalous in one (Huddersfield) and no more than average in all the others.

His delivery from set pieces is so good that he’s not taking corners. He’s achieved one assist this season. Thats not “excellent” - even if you account for forwards missing chances, for the player the team is built around, it’s shocking.

A player can create chances or be good in one aspect but create a negative impact on the team. For Scott, this was most obvious at Derby where he left Pring absolutely isolated and trod on Birds toes. He created chances but his performance made others worse - not better.

People aren’t using today as “negative vibes about Twine because he’s injured”. They’re saying exactly what they’ve said all along. It was an abysmal signing of a player who is self above team, and I’d bet we don’t win that with him on the pitch today - not because he doesn’t do well in isolation, but because he makes us play with ten.

[ashton_fan]

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

He really didn’t. 
 

If you want to go over old ground, in those eight games he played exceptionally in one (Rotherham), absolutely scandalous in one (Huddersfield) and no more than average in all the others.

His delivery from set pieces is so good that he’s not taking corners. He’s achieved one assist this season. Thats not “excellent” - even if you account for forwards missing chances, for the player the team is built around, it’s shocking.

A player can create chances or be good in one aspect but create a negative impact on the team. For Scott, this was most obvious at Derby where he left Pring absolutely isolated and trod on Birds toes. He created chances but his performance made others worse - not better.

People aren’t using today as “negative vibes about Twine because he’s injured”. They’re saying exactly what they’ve said all along. It was an abysmal signing of a player who is self above team, and I’d bet we don’t win that with him on the pitch today - not because he doesn’t do well in isolation, but because he makes us play with ten.

I'm just going on what I've seen with my own eyes rather than some stats manufactured on OTIB to support someone's point of view

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, ashton_fan said:

I'm just going on what I've seen with my own eyes rather than some stats manufactured on OTIB to support someone's point of view

Ah. The old “I have no backup so I’m right defence”

Cheers for that. Worthwhile debating.

[Rob k]

5 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

He really didn’t. 
 

If you want to go over old ground, in those eight games he played exceptionally in one (Rotherham), absolutely scandalous in one (Huddersfield) and no more than average in all the others.

His delivery from set pieces is so good that he’s not taking corners. He’s achieved one assist this season. Thats not “excellent” - even if you account for forwards missing chances, for the player the team is built around, it’s shocking.

A player can create chances or be good in one aspect but create a negative impact on the team. For Scott, this was most obvious at Derby where he left Pring absolutely isolated and trod on Birds toes. He created chances but his performance made others worse - not better.

People aren’t using today as “negative vibes about Twine because he’s injured”. They’re saying exactly what they’ve said all along. It was an abysmal signing of a player who is self above team, and I’d bet we don’t win that with him on the pitch today - not because he doesn’t do well in isolation, but because he makes us play with ten.

So wrong - Twine is nowhere near as bad as your saying. Your miles off the mark. We had 2 chances today and scored them both which we haven’t done much this season and we saw the game out well for the last 20 mins. Twine is a good player. 

Edited Saturday at 19:22 by Rob k

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, Rob k said:

So wrong - Twine is nowhere near as bad as your saying. Your miles off the mark. We had 2 chances today and scored them both which we haven’t done much this season and we saw the game out well for the last 20 mins. He’s a good player. 

Ok then:

- Would you have paid £4m for him?

- Was his loan spell worthy of a permanent deal?

- What evidence do you have (bearing in mind that his goals and assists half at this level from league one) that he can do it at this level

- Would you have been worried about his reoccurring injury?

- Would you have considered the position a priority above a better striker to convert the chances?

- Is his ppg return (one a game this year) and goal/assist record (2 last year, 2 this) worthy of his fee and status as a “good player”

- Why did Burnley get rid if he was a good player at this level?

Take your time.

[ashton_fan]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Ah. The old “I have no backup so I’m right defence”

Cheers for that. Worthwhile debating.

I watched the Swansea away game on Sky and they came up with a stat that Twine had created more good chances than anyone else in the Championship bar one player at that stage, and their pundit tipped us as dark horses for the play-offs

[steviestevieneville]

12 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

Twine did well for us during our good end-of-season run last season and he's creating plenty of good chances when I've seen him at AG, not his fault that the forwards aren't putting them in. He certainly worries other teams and his delivery from set pieces is excellent. It's a shame people are using our positive result today to assume negative vibes about Twine just because he was injured.

Sorry but that’s not true. Twine doesn’t suit the squad we have. It’s no coincidence that Yu Hirikawa had his best game today . He’s alive to the bits & pieces that drop for him . That all stems from knights energy . I’d like to see Sykes in there as well especially away from home . Tinnion wanted to change things too quickly . For those that support him & the club , ask why he wanted a possession based coach to come in when we had a  counter attacking squad . That bloke is out of his depth . Both goals today came the same way as last season did up there under NP . 
I suppose that’s  a question for boro fans about Michael carrick as well . 

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

I watched the Swansea away game on Sky and they came up with a stat that Twine had created more good chances than anyone else in the Championship bar one player at that stage, and their pundit tipped us as dark horses for the play-offs

Well. If Lee Hendrie tips us as dark horses, considering his phenomenal track record, I withdraw my previous criticism.

(The big chance/ xG piece has been discussed at length on here. And I’m not saying Scott can’t create chances. What I’m saying is that we’re a worse team with him in it in view of the overall piece)

[1960maaan]

3 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Agree. He admitted we wanted more of the ball but couldn’t & we found a way . Possibly a chat for another day but everyone wants to play the “pep” way . Perhaps not the game plan but this time as it was last season but the same outcome. We scored two goals buy pressing them very high up the pitch . It was good for Hogg to be honest but also shows flaws in the initial game plan a bit.

I really did like him going to a 541 ish second half  of the second half . Thought we saw the game out comfortably after that . Better use of subs as well . 

I saw Naismith say to McNally they were going to a 3, with him central and I thought it made sense. Helped McCrorie and got defensive cover the width of the pitch. I do wonder if they might stick with that shape , at least short term.
We scored twice by pressing high , but we don't press high . Mehmeti , Yu , Wells and even Bird closed , didn't look like a genuine press to me. It was Knight being Knight from CMF nicking the ball that won the game today. 
We used to press , hunt in packs with a trigger and do it at pace. Now it is blocking lanes and closing down , but not what I see as a press . 

Yeah, but what do I know.

[TonyTonyTony]

10 minutes ago, Rob k said:

So wrong - Twine is nowhere near as bad as your saying. Your miles off the mark. We had 2 chances today and scored them both which we haven’t done much this season and we saw the game out well for the last 20 mins. Twine is a good player. 

Agree Rob. Old Silvio went early with his damming verdict on Twine, and has to double down. He likes to be right 

[Rob k]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Ok then:

- Would you have paid £4m for him?

- Was his loan spell worthy of a permanent deal?

- What evidence do you have (bearing in mind that his goals and assists half at this level from league one) that he can do it at this level

- Would you have been worried about his reoccurring injury?

- Would you have considered the position a priority above a better striker to convert the chances?

- Is his ppg return (one a game this year) and goal/assist record (2 last year, 2 this) worthy of his fee and status as a “good player”

- Why did Burnley get rid if he was a good player at this level?

Take your time.

- i don’t care what we pay for a player. Nothing to do with me.

- The manager thought so and has been backed so on Manning to make it work. 
 

- I want a player that creates chances as we didn’t have that player. He does that. You seem to only look at certain stats it would seem otherwise you would know this.

- injuries happen, but would agree it should be a consideration of any player

- yes i would have considered his position a priority. And so did a lot of fans. 
 

- can’t blame Twine for others missing chances 
 

- let’s not compare what we can afford to what Burnley can. We are miles off being able to compete with a parachute club. So yes, happy to take players off them 

[bearded_red]

6 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Sorry but that’s not true. Twine doesn’t suit the squad we have. It’s no coincidence that Yu Hirikawa had his best game today . He’s alive to the bits & pieces that drop for him . That all stems from knights energy . I’d like to see Sykes in there as well especially away from home . Tinnion wanted to change things too quickly . For those that support him & the club , ask why he wanted a possession based coach to come in when we had a  counter attacking squad . That bloke is out of his depth . Both goals today came the same way as last season did up there under NP . 
I suppose that’s  a question for boro fans about Michael carrick as well . 

Completely agree with your post, but the victory up there last season did come under Manning.

[Silvio Dante]

3 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Agree Rob. Old Silvio went early with his damming verdict on Twine, and has to double down. He likes to be right 

“Damning” mate. You appear to be confusing me with Beavers.

And I’m always happy to change tack. I’ve done so on Max for example as he’s improved. But you play your own game.

[steviestevieneville]

2 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I saw Naismith say to McNally they were going to a 3, with him central and I thought it made sense. Helped McCrorie and got defensive cover the width of the pitch. I do wonder if they might stick with that shape , at least short term.
We scored twice by pressing high , but we don't press high . Mehmeti , Yu , Wells and even Bird closed , didn't look like a genuine press to me. It was Knight being Knight from CMF nicking the ball that won the game today. 
We used to press , hunt in packs with a trigger and do it at pace. Now it is blocking lanes and closing down , but not what I see as a press . 

Yeah, but what do I know.

Totally agree . Hogg admitted it wasn’t a game plan . It was knights energy winning the ball back that got the goals . I do think him & Hirikawa have similar traits though & it suited us today. I agree the gameplay is about blocking lanes but I don’t think it suits us at all , we’re too passive with & without the ball . Same as you , it’s how I see it & just my opinion but I see mixed messages in our recruitment to how we want to play . Unless of course it’s “ clubs in the bag “

[steviestevieneville]

4 minutes ago, bearded_red said:

Completely agree with your post, but the victory up there last season did come under Manning.

Did it ? Ok fair enough . I remember the performance well & it being very much a NP type game . It must of been early in mannings tenure I presume 

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, steviestevieneville said:

Did it ? Ok fair enough . I remember the performance well & it being very much a NP type game . It must of been early in mannings tenure I presume 

Tbf quite late - think it was March. The home game was early on on the reign 

[1960maaan]

1 minute ago, steviestevieneville said:

Totally agree . Hogg admitted it wasn’t a game plan . It was knights energy winning the ball back that got the goals . I do think him & Hirikawa have similar traits though & it suited us today. I agree the gameplay is about blocking lanes but I don’t think it suits us at all , we’re too passive with & without the ball . Same as you , it’s how I see it & just my opinion but I see mixed messages in our recruitment to how we want to play . Unless of course it’s “ clubs in the bag “

That's a scary phrase , "clubs in the bag"

I do question our recruitment and I agree about being passive. I think it stands out more when you compare it to under the previous manager and with how we played earlier this season. At 2-0 I'm happy with that, let them make the plays. But at 0-0 we look devoid of ideas , slow and chasing shadows.

[Rob k]

1 minute ago, 1960maaan said:

That's a scary phrase , "clubs in the bag"

I do question our recruitment and I agree about being passive. I think it stands out more when you compare it to under the previous manager and with how we played earlier this season. At 2-0 I'm happy with that, let them make the plays. But at 0-0 we look devoid of ideas , slow and chasing shadows.

I said at half time, if your a Boro fan your wondering how your 2-0 down!! We had 30% possession today and (to me) we looked miles Off Middlesbrough in the first half. Thought we looked better in 2nd half and comfortably saw the game out in the last 20. I will take the 3pts though all day long. 

[1960maaan]

3 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Tbf quite late - think it was March. The home game was early on on the reign 

Away game was February , home game was November , 2nd game I think.

[Davefevs]

32 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Totally agree . Hogg admitted it wasn’t a game plan . It was knights energy winning the ball back that got the goals . I do think him & Hirikawa have similar traits though & it suited us today. I agree the gameplay is about blocking lanes but I don’t think it suits us at all , we’re too passive with & without the ball . Same as you , it’s how I see it & just my opinion but I see mixed messages in our recruitment to how we want to play . Unless of course it’s “ clubs in the bag “

Chances versus unstructured defences are better (generally) than chances versus structured defences.  If you don’t press with some element of success, you give up one method of scoring.  Don’t get me wrong you can press high with no skill and get picked off.  But why give up that as an option.

Those couple of examples were great.  A lot of the rest of the first half we didn’t really pressure them on the ball, they just moved it around us.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, steviestevieneville said:

Did it ? Ok fair enough . I remember the performance well & it being very much a NP type game . It must of been early in mannings tenure I presume 

Was a strange game really the one in February up there.

We got 2 early goals, ie first 15-20 mins and more chances but a lot less of the ball.

Went to a back 3 post HT iirc and from a Match Graphic too our Chances and Possession steadily seemed to dry up, from about 10-15 mins into 2nd half it was just one-way traffic in their favour.

More of an NP performance.

Edited Saturday at 21:39 by Mr Popodopolous

[PHILINFRANCE]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Yeah, the World Wide Web is horribly misnamed as it means information freely available here isn’t available in Portugal.

Its a bloody minefield.

An amusing post, but, to be fair to @Robbored, the first I heard of it was in Chris Hogg’s pre match interview - I assumed initially that, perhaps due to their longstanding relationship, Scott Twine was just too emotionally overwhelmed by Liam Manning’s bereavement.