Max

[Severn Beach Pigeon]

6 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Were you applauding him last season when he had one of the highest shot save percentages?  Hopefully.  He’s going through a mediocre spell. His first one really. 

I did give credit for a high save percentage last season, though I will also caveat that this will in part have been helped by the defence limiting the quality of chances for some of those shots.

The same caveat applies in reverse at the moment, we are allowing better quality chances against which makes Max's job harder. This is why I made a point to say that those stats should not be taken in isolation.

Nice attempt at a gotcha, but it isn't going to work.

[REDOXO]

1 minute ago, Severn Beach Pigeon said:

It's an accurate description of what you are doing 

You've claimed he has "saved us from embarrassment most weeks"

That is not the case, at all.

He's a decent keeper for the level, he has his strengths and his weaknesses. Pretending he's single handedly keeping us in games when he's made very few saves this season is dishonest, as it would also be if someone claimed the goals against was primarily his fault.

I have at no point said or suggested that Max is "not very good" though.

 

So here's the difference, I acknowledge his upsides and his downsides. And accept both. I give credit to good saves and criticise mistakes equally.

You see only his positives, have made a dishonest claim and then when that was called out said I went to "extremes".

What rubbish. You don’t know me or have ever met me. What do you know about what I see and don’t see! 

Called out you get this is a football forum!

[Severn Beach Pigeon]

9 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

What rubbish. You don’t know me or have ever met me. What do you know about what I see and don’t see! 

Called out you get this is a football forum!

And I hope I never have to.

Yes I do, you get that people can have a view where they write both good and bad about a player when that player does both good and bad things.

A simple shot at him isn't a world class save by him, nor is a shot that goes top corner one where he's necessarily at fault.

I will say both of these things, but you give the appearance of being one eyed to the extreme and take issue with almost any poster who isn't effusive with praise for Max, let alone dare to give criticism when it is due.

I've given you an example of this already when a shot straight at Max last season was fantastic goalkeeping and I got pushback for saying it was poor finishing, but when a near identical thing happened with Armstrong the other day, it suddenly was poor finishing from Armstrong, not a fantastic save to deny him.

As you seem to have lumped me into a non existent "Max is bad" club, I'll challenge you to find a single time where I've said Max is a bad goalkeeper.

[And Its Smith]

54 minutes ago, Severn Beach Pigeon said:

I did give credit for a high save percentage last season, though I will also caveat that this will in part have been helped by the defence limiting the quality of chances for some of those shots.

The same caveat applies in reverse at the moment, we are allowing better quality chances against which makes Max's job harder. This is why I made a point to say that those stats should not be taken in isolation.

Nice attempt at a gotcha, but it isn't going to work.

No attempt made. 

[Numero Uno]

4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

O'leary lacks range. He does not possess a wide range of passing beyond short, and short is up to twenty metres. The team will always be tactically limited because of the technical limitations of its number one. 

In a team building from the back a normal expectation would be that the keeper would be efficiently be able to reset possession and frequently switch play. Switching is an area to wide receivers (the full backs) is an area where O'leary is erratic hitting and missing players located around thirty metres away. The team consistently adopts a shape where its gone two at the back (CB's) the ball is returned to O'leary and he fails to reset the ball. Its a technical limitation effecting the fluency of the team.  

Going against some of the flow I feel O'learys distribution has improved, he hit a beautiful penetrative pass to feet v Wednesday that may have not been achieved in seasons past, he is occasionally breaking lines with driven passes into central midfield, and has left his box to act as a third and second CB to create passing angles influenced by time on the grass with Mr Manning where previously O'leary was attached deep to his box by an invisible umbilical cord.

O'leary is a case of expectation. What is it that your expect from a keeper. Liam Mannings football, the teams is based upon possession, building from the first third and distribution is not the best part of O'learys game. The teams possession football is tactically limited because of the technical limitations of its number one. A normal expectation is a team approaching its football as City are is that's the keeper distribution will be a keystone skill, the keepers distribution, the ability to keep and reset possession will be of a high, very high and exceptional level, an asset to the teams football. 

Accepting all that you then have to ask why the Manager was happy not to bring a “possession” keeper like Hradky in?

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Accepting all that you then have to ask why the Manager was happy not to bring a “possession” keeper like Hradky in?

I would question across Mannings 4-2-3-1 who it is who distributes the ball. Where is the skill to break lines? From GK to CB's to CM this possession game with average on the ball is flawed. 

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I would question across Mannings 4-2-3-1 who it is who distributes the ball. Where is the skill to break lines? From GK to CB's to CM this possession game with average on the ball is flawed. 

Do you think he’s trying to imitate McKenna’s Ipswich 4231 of 23/24?

Shape-wise I see attempts to mimic…Pring / Davis high, Mehmeti or Twine / Broadhead inverting, even the request for a “bigger no9” / Moore or Hirst, etc.

Bit the execution and intent is poles apart.

[Mr Hankey]

4 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Max is a very good international goalkeeper

Bit of a reach that

Getting called up to sit on Ireland’s bench & never making an appearnace (so technically not even a full International) is up there with getting called up for San Marino.

I get Max has a massive fanbase, but that really is a stretch to call him a “very good international” - he wouldn’t be with us if that was the case.

Edited October 9 by Mr Hankey

[TommyD68]

13 hours ago, Mr Hankey said:

Bit of a reach that

Getting called up to sit on Ireland’s bench & never making an appearnace (so technically not even a full International) is up there with getting called up for San Marino.

I get Max has a massive fanbase, but that really is a stretch to call him a “very good international” - he wouldn’t be with us if that was the case.

A bit harsh comparing it to getting called up for San Marino I reckon I’d have a chance of being their number 2. The reality he is he’s a decent championship GK hence the consistent call ups to Ireland, he wouldn’t even be considered as a sub GK if he’s as bad as some people make out on here.
 

We’re a mid table championship team at best, not play off contenders that some people think and max is the level of GK I’d expect to be playing for the club. 

[Cowshed]

16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Do you think he’s trying to imitate McKenna’s Ipswich 4231 of 23/24?

Shape-wise I see attempts to mimic…Pring / Davis high, Mehmeti or Twine / Broadhead inverting, even the request for a “bigger no9” / Moore or Hirst, etc.

Bit the execution and intent is poles apart.

I understand your parallel, but the intents are poles.

When looking at teams I start from the back. The topical O'leary v Hladky. O'leary gets described with the ball at his feet as? Hladky has been called a wizard with the ball at his feet and he sweeps. The use of keeper, the tactical intents are already different due to the differing skills of the keepers. Ipswich's build up was often complex and would move into intensely fast. Ipswich also used a player that would drop deep from CM as a play maker. 

Up top City are more similar, but Ipswich really were a very differing model of play. 

Edited October 10 by Cowshed

[Dullmoan Tone]

On 06/10/2024 at 19:27, RobImps said:

Absolute least of our problems.

The biggest problem would be if he were injured and reliant on our back-up

[Gol]

21 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Were you applauding him last season when he had one of the highest shot save percentages?  Hopefully.  He’s going through a mediocre spell. His first one really. 

Agreed.  One of our best players last season but sadly a player that fans look to turn on whenever possible 

Last season, statistically speaking max was in the top 5 in terms of save to shots. This season he is the 2nd worse in terms of saves per 90, save percentage (shots to saves) and goals prevented. It is concerning hopefully he can pull through 

Championship 2024/2025 stats (fotmob.com)

17 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Do you think he’s trying to imitate McKenna’s Ipswich 4231 of 23/24?

Shape-wise I see attempts to mimic…Pring / Davis high, Mehmeti or Twine / Broadhead inverting, even the request for a “bigger no9” / Moore or Hirst, etc.

Bit the execution and intent is poles apart.

Funnily enough Dave yes I do, though the problems are our left side is not as good as theirs, we don't have a Sam Morsy type player to dominate the midfield and push us forward consistently (though Williams could do it if he found the consistency). and without trying to hijack this thread an adaptable head coach who would mix up tactics and subs in game to great effect.

[DantheCityman]

If we had a keeper that was a good shot stopper and a good distributor he wouldn't be playing for us in the championship.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

I understand your parallel, but the intents are poles.

When looking at teams I start from the back. The topical O'leary v Hladky. O'leary gets described with the ball at his feet as? Hladky has been called a wizard with the ball at his feet and he sweeps. The use of keeper, the tactical intents are already different due to the differing skills of the keepers. Ipswich's build up was often complex and would move into intensely fast. Ipswich also used a player that would drop deep from CM as a play maker. 

Up top City are more similar, but Ipswich really were a very differing model of play. 

Yes, agree poles apart, but do you think (your opinion) that Manning is trying to mimic it, but perhaps hasn’t grasped the key bits that made it work for Ipswich?

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Gol said:

Funnily enough Dave yes I do, though the problems are our left side is not as good as theirs, we don't have a Sam Morsy type player to dominate the midfield and push us forward consistently (though Williams could do it if he found the consistency). and without trying to hijack this thread an adaptable head coach who would mix up tactics and subs in game to great effect.

We don’t have a Conor Chaplin either, buzzing around, taking it in tight spaces, rolling either side and pinging the side-men.

This is where I think it is possible to try to structure the term like Ipswich, but forget that it’s the Ipswich players (and coaching by KM) that made it work.

Manning should be playing a system that suits our players.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, DantheCityman said:

If we had a keeper that was a good shot stopper and a good distributor he wouldn't be playing for us in the championship.

Well we purchased Bentley and Brentford purchased Raya.

Had we purchased the latter.. although he came into a very well defined setup.

[Maltshoveller]

1 minute ago, DantheCityman said:

If we had a keeper that was a good shot stopper and a good distributor he wouldn't be playing for us in the championship.

More to being a top keeper than shot stopping and being good on the ball

[Cowshed]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, agree poles apart, but do you think (your opinion) that Manning is trying to mimic it, but perhaps hasn’t grasped the key bits that made it work for Ipswich?

No is the answer. I used a term "model of play". the teams have similar notional  shape and structure, but the two teams approach across elements of play and across areas of the pitch are different. From the keeper out through the shape there are stark differences = The models are not the same.

Ipswich had a clear model (system). Bristol City's is still being formed and pieces are being chucked around experimented with. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Let's go back in time 4-5 years before FFP kicked in for us.

          Bentley or Maenpaa

Pereira or Hunt Kalas Baker DaSilva

     Smith Nagy OR Massengo

  O'Dowda   Brownhill      Eliasson

                Weimann

(If Afobe fit you habe Weimann wider get narrower right and Afobe in the middle).

I think you can make a relatively cohesive ballplaying side out of that, with the right setup.

Brownhill out a major loss- yet Benkovic, Henriksen, Wells in and Paterson back.

Again I believe you can, Wells central, Weimann-Paterson-Eliasson behind.

Next year.

                    Bentley

Sessegnon? Kalas Mawson DaSilva

Becomes a bit more difficult in midfield with all 3 of Smith, Pack and Brownhill gone. Nagy, Massengo and Paterson?

Weimann, Paterson and Wells? Who is the 3rd man with Nagy and Massengo, who links the midfield and attack? No Eliasson reduces options out left..Weimann-Wells/Martin-Semenyo?

Nagy, Massengo and Paterson as a 3?

Weimann in the middle, with Wells and Martin competing..Lots of numbers, less in the way of balance and structure.

Edited October 10 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Palmer from a tactical and Diedhiou from a technical angle would detract from this.