Bellingham vs Alli

[formerly known as ivan]

Is the hype around Bellingham valid? He was very poor last night, even with the goal.

It is a shame how Alli’s career turned out, but personally I think at the same stage in their careers, Alli was ahead of Bellingham in terms of ability.

Of course you can look at Bellingham winning the champions league, can’t take that away from him. I do believe Alli could have achieved this as well had managed to stay on the path he was during the first few years at Spurs. Unfortunately for Alli he was at a club who are never going to win any trophies! But he personal stats during the 15/16 and 16/17 seasons were phenomenal.

Player for player, at the peak of what we have seen from them both, a prime Deli Alli beats Bellingham in my opinion.

[KegCity]

Bellingham could retire tomorrow and he's already surpassed Alli.

 

[Littlesh*t]

I do think Bellingham is over hyped but also would have him every time over Ali.

The sooner we get Bellingham to play the midfield role along side Rice the better for me, take a pick of Foden or Palmer in the 10.

 

Last night was a shambles, I know some will say it was a glorified friendly and try these thongs but Carsley has just ruled himself out of the job most likely so it should have been a big deal for him.

 

If he was going to play the attacking talent he had last night he needed to make sure we had to defensive minded full backs but instead ended up with 2 CB and rice trying to stop Greece with every long ball

[formerly known as ivan]

15 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Bellingham could retire tomorrow and he's already surpassed Alli.

 

In terms of trophies, absolutely. But trophies aren’t a true reflection of personal ability. Just look a Scott Carson’s medal haul!

[KegCity]

16 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

In terms of trophies, absolutely. But trophies aren’t a true reflection of personal ability. Just look a Scott Carson’s medal haul!

The difference being that Bellingham was integral to winning those trophies and has dragged club and country through games consistently.

[BCFCGav]

People do forget just how good Alli was. I don't think it's clear cut between the two, if both taken at the peak of their powers.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Is the hype around Bellingham valid? He was very poor last night, even with the goal.

It is a shame how Alli’s career turned out, but personally I think at the same stage in their careers, Alli was ahead of Bellingham in terms of ability.

Of course you can look at Bellingham winning the champions league, can’t take that away from him. I do believe Alli could have achieved this as well had managed to stay on the path he was during the first few years at Spurs. Unfortunately for Alli he was at a club who are never going to win any trophies! But he personal stats during the 15/16 and 16/17 seasons were phenomenal.

Player for player, at the peak of what we have seen from them both, a prime Deli Alli beats Bellingham in my opinion.

For me, the biggest problem with Alli (and the sane happens with other players) is that Because he scored goals from midfield, people then think he’s a no10.  Alli was the guy breaking late into the box, picking up chances in the edge of the box, etc.  He basically liked the play to be in-front of him.  More of an 8.

But then you play him as a 10 and the play happens behind him, he’s facing his own goal, etc.

Bellingham doesn’t need to be hindered by playing 10 either.  I didn’t watch last night closely, so don’t know where he played, but the goal, he actually started the move in the left channel on halfway, and surged towards the box to get the pull back that missed everyone.

[robin_unreliant]

I don't think Bellingham is anywhere near as good as he thinks he is. However it would be impossible for anyone to be as good as that. I suspect his ego will end up making him a figure of derision in a few years as he fails to live up to his own hype.

[BeggyBlaggers]

Bellingham is a standard english player with promise - clamour for him to play because hes quality. Now hes there, hes apparently overhyped.

 

You arent a first team regular at Real Madrid being overhyped.

 

The next england head coach had to have the balls to make big decisions and if those decisions are dropping foden and/or palmer to play bellingham in a No10 - then so be it.

 

Last night proved shoehorning 'the best' players into a team isnt the best solution

[Kid in the Riot]

Since his injury at the turn of the year, he hasn't been the same player. Do wonder if he's already suffering from a bit of burn out, as he plays a hell of a lot for club and country.

On a related note, I can't believe Saka only turned 23 last month. He's already got 43 caps for England! 

He could, in theory, smash Peter Shilton's record of 125 caps if he stays fit. 

Such a brilliant, consistent and MODEST (take note Jude) player. 

[2015]

7 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Since his injury at the turn of the year, he hasn't been the same player. Do wonder if he's already suffering from a bit of burn out, as he plays a hell of a lot for club and country.

On a related note, I can't believe Saka only turned 23 last month. He's already got 43 caps for England! 

He could, in theory, smash Peter Shilton's record of 125 caps if he stays fit. 

Such a brilliant, consistent and MODEST (take note Jude) player. 

I personally would not call Saka consistent. Have seen many games for Arsenal where he has gone missing, and quite a few for England like last night. 

World class player on his day though.

[KegCity]

8 minutes ago, BeggyBlaggers said:

Bellingham is a standard english player with promise - clamour for him to play because hes quality. Now hes there, hes apparently overhyped.

 

You arent a first team regular at Real Madrid being overhyped.

 

The next england head coach had to have the balls to make big decisions and if those decisions are dropping foden and/or palmer to play bellingham in a No10 - then so be it.

 

Last night proved shoehorning 'the best' players into a team isnt the best solution

Foden always seems to fall short for England. Southgate did everything to accommodate him at the Euros and England got nothing in return. I'd be playing Palmer and Bellingham ahead of him.

 

6 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Since his injury at the turn of the year, he hasn't been the same player. Do wonder if he's already suffering from a bit of burn out, as he plays a hell of a lot for club and country.

On a related note, I can't believe Saka only turned 23 last month. He's already got 43 caps for England! 

He could, in theory, smash Peter Shilton's record of 125 caps if he stays fit. 

Such a brilliant, consistent and MODEST (take note Jude) player. 

Saka is a brilliant player, as you say very modest and is becoming one of (if not THE) best right-winger in the world.

I don't mind Jude's attitude, he's got a Galactico mentality and after the rise he's had he's earned it. I do worry he won't have a long career, his knees look shot already.

Just now, 2015 said:

I personally would not call Saka consistent. Have seen many games for Arsenal where he has gone missing, and quite a few for England like last night. 

World class player on his day though.

Saka has carried Arsenal on his back since bursting out of the academy.

[2015]

1 minute ago, KegCity said:

 

Saka has carried Arsenal on his back since bursting out of the academy.

My mates who support Arsenal love Saka, but would not call him consistent still. It is a semi-regular thing that when Saka is having a poor performance he limps off the pitch.

[mozo]

Bellingham has become a prima donna and wasn't amazing yesterday, but everything good that England did came through him and guess what he came up with the equaliser.

Compare and contrast with Foden, another generational talent, and you see that Belly is quality.

[TDarwall]

43 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

For me, the biggest problem with Alli (and the sane happens with other players) is that Because he scored goals from midfield, people then think he’s a no10.  Alli was the guy breaking late into the box, picking up chances in the edge of the box, etc.  He basically liked the play to be in-front of him.  More of an 8.

But then you play him as a 10 and the play happens behind him, he’s facing his own goal,

I have often thought that teams find it hard to accommodate v attacking midfielders into their overall structure (as we ourselves are now). If its a Bryan Robson//Gary Shelton type that is good at the defensive & attacking side of the game then great, but if all of their value is in going forward it tends to upset the equilibrium.

I don't know exactly when we stopped midfielders being good at all aspects of the game & moved to CAM, holding midfielder etc but I don't think it's a change for the better.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Foden always seems to fall short for England. Southgate did everything to accommodate him at the Euros and England got nothing in return. I'd be playing Palmer and Bellingham ahead of him.

 

I’m kinda with you.

Great for Man City, not so great for England.  Wouldn’t be the first player to not reach club levels at international level.

[TDarwall]

13 minutes ago, mozo said:

 

Compare and contrast with Foden, another generational talent, and you see that Belly is quality.

That's a big shout, I like young Sam, but a bit of a stretch maybe?? .....

[BeggyBlaggers]

27 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Since his injury at the turn of the year, he hasn't been the same player. Do wonder if he's already suffering from a bit of burn out, as he plays a hell of a lot for club and country.

On a related note, I can't believe Saka only turned 23 last month. He's already got 43 caps for England! 

He could, in theory, smash Peter Shilton's record of 125 caps if he stays fit. 

Such a brilliant, consistent and MODEST (take note Jude) player. 

Perhaps having modest players is why england havent won bugger all since 1966.

Nothing wrong with a desire to win.

[Kid in the Riot]

16 minutes ago, BeggyBlaggers said:

Perhaps having modest players is why england havent won bugger all since 1966.

Nothing wrong with a desire to win.

Maybe humble a better word

[Merrick's Marvels]

20 minutes ago, BeggyBlaggers said:

Perhaps having modest players is why england havent won bugger all since 1966.

If that was the case, Portugal and "CR7" would win everything going.

But they don't.

So your theory doesn't hold water.

The answer is the obvious one - we haven't had good enough players and good enough managers. Simple. Some bad luck along the way hasn't helped (penalty shoot outs, Argie cheats). 

The Premier League has been good for something though - improvement in youth coaching and academy systems, improved facilities notably pitches.

So we're now producing high class young footballers (one or two more defenders wouldn't go amiss).

The final piece of the jigsaw is identifying a manager who can get us over the line.

Southgate has left an excellent legacy for someone to win something and take the glory.    

Edited Friday at 09:22 by Merrick's Marvels

[BeggyBlaggers]

12 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

If that was the case, Portugal and "CR7" would win everything going.

But they don't.

So your theory doesn't hold water.

The answer is the obvious one - we haven't had good enough players and good enough managers. Simple. Some bad luck along the way hasn't helped (penalty shoot outs, Argie cheats). 

The Premier League has been good for something though - improvement in youth coaching and academy systems, improved facilities notably pitches.

So we're now producing high class young footballers (one or two more defenders wouldn't go amiss).

The final piece of the jigsaw is identifying a manager who can get us over the line.

Southgate has left an excellent legacy for someone to win something and take the glory.    

Its a culmination of everything.

 

Crap managers. Lesser ability players at times. Media pressure. Players not really giving a crap about playing for england. Players not getting on.

 

The golden generation were good players, but outside of the starting 11, England had nothing else.

 

Get a head coach like Pep that can control multiple egos, and theres a higher chance of winning a tournament imo.

 

Different sport, but Chicago Bulls wouldnt have been as great as they were in the 90s if it wasnt for Michael Jordans ego and desire to win. Him being a tad good also helped.

 

 

[And Its Smith]

3 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Is the hype around Bellingham valid? He was very poor last night, even with the goal.

It is a shame how Alli’s career turned out, but personally I think at the same stage in their careers, Alli was ahead of Bellingham in terms of ability.

Of course you can look at Bellingham winning the champions league, can’t take that away from him. I do believe Alli could have achieved this as well had managed to stay on the path he was during the first few years at Spurs. Unfortunately for Alli he was at a club who are never going to win any trophies! But he personal stats during the 15/16 and 16/17 seasons were phenomenal.

Player for player, at the peak of what we have seen from them both, a prime Deli Alli beats Bellingham in my opinion.

In a word yes.  He’s incredible.  

[Dullmoan Tone]

2 hours ago, BCFCGav said:

People do forget just how good Alli was. I don't think it's clear cut between the two, if both taken at the peak of their powers.

Probably shouldn't say this but, having heard so much, I was disappointed when I saw him against us at home - thought he struggled to make an impact bar one run through the middle that fizzled out.

Its stupid to judge on a single evening game, but even then you could tell Bellingham was something special. Although I would have struggled to see him at Real Madrid then!

Shows how impressive and important proper / professional talent spotting is !

[Merrick's Marvels]

26 minutes ago, BeggyBlaggers said:

Its a culmination of everything.

 

Crap managers. Lesser ability players at times. Media pressure. Players not really giving a crap about playing for england. Players not getting on.

 

The golden generation were good players, but outside of the starting 11, England had nothing else.

 

Get a head coach like Pep that can control multiple egos, and theres a higher chance of winning a tournament imo.

 

Different sport, but Chicago Bulls wouldnt have been as great as they were in the 90s if it wasnt for Michael Jordans ego and desire to win. Him being a tad good also helped.

 

 

Yes, agree with all of that, except perhaps the Michael Jordan bit.

He was a Messi or a Maradona surely? And England have never had a player that good in recent times.

Everything else you mention has definitely hindered us, to a greater or lesser extent, at some point for sure. Like you say - the key now is finding the right coach.

And I'm pretty sure that ain't Lee bloody Carsley. 

Edited Friday at 10:06 by Merrick's Marvels

[38MC]

44 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

If that was the case, Portugal and "CR7" would win everything going.

 

Well, not necessarily because one player is not going to catapult a team to win an international tournament, but it might be useful to look at did CR7 win everything... world cup aside, yerp. 

[BeggyBlaggers]

2 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Yes, agree with all of that, except perhaps the Michael Jordan bit.

He was a Messi or a Maradona surely? And England have never had a player that good in recent times.

Everything else you mention has definitely hindered us, to a greater or lesser extent, at some point for sure. Like you say - the key now is finding the right coach.

And I'm pretty sure that ain't Lee bloody Carsley. 

Have you watched 'the last dance'....goes in depth into it.

 

If Lee Carsley is the answer - i dont even want to know the question

[archie andrews]

Getting to be the golden generation circ 04/12 mk2 ....

[Merrick's Marvels]

48 minutes ago, BeggyBlaggers said:

Have you watched 'the last dance'....goes in depth into it.

Know about it but not watched. 

[formerly known as ivan]

4 hours ago, KegCity said:

The difference being that Bellingham was integral to winning those trophies and has dragged club and country through games consistently.

Are you sure? You might want to look at Bellingham’s record from around December onwards last season for Madrid…

[Numero Uno]

England have a lot of very good players except in the critical area of the pitch….at the back. We need top class defenders to come through and looking at the Premier League, who are they?

[Markthehorn]

People aren’t writing Bellingham off already ?

Give the bloke a chance 

He is a fantastic talent who will be playing on the world stage for years to come .

[BeggyBlaggers]

48 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Are you sure? You might want to look at Bellingham’s record from around December onwards last season for Madrid…

Whats wrong with his record?

[KegCity]

51 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Are you sure? You might want to look at Bellingham’s record from around December onwards last season for Madrid…

I am yes. Covered/covers every blade of grass and keeps things ticking.

Playing deeper this season and both Bellingham and Madrid are suffering as a result (from the games I've seen).

[KegCity]

46 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

England have a lot of very good players except in the critical area of the pitch….at the back. We need top class defenders to come through and looking at the Premier League, who are they?

I've been really impressed with Marc Guehi in the last 12 months and have high hopes for Branthwaite.

[Super]

49 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

England have a lot of very good players except in the critical area of the pitch….at the back. We need top class defenders to come through and looking at the Premier League, who are they?

That's been the problem for a long time. We have talented players good on the ball etc but no real defenders like an Adams or a Terry.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

Bellingham is phenomenal, he had the most horrendous experiment behind him last night and I think it showed why Carsley shouldn't get the job.

I was trying to explain the problem with that defensive selection and the words inverted were used a a lot.  It was obvious it was going to lead to problems and to play it shows a lack of understanding of what those players are doing at club level.  

We need a proper manager with a proper thought process and not Pep, pep's style needs more time with the players than he will ever have.

[Ron W]

6 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

It is a shame how Alli’s career turned out, but personally I think at the same stage in their careers, Alli was ahead of Bellingham in terms of ability.

Bellingham was voted as La Liga's best player of the year in his first year at the biggest, most pressurised club in the world.

He's burnt out in the last six months or so and he still carries England at times.

Edited Friday at 13:28 by Ron W

[Maltshoveller]

Never really got the hype about Alli

Good player but nothing more 

( imo )

[alexukhc]

Just a poor man’s Luke Freeman…

remember? who was that

Edited Friday at 14:28 by alexukhc

[38MC]

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

England have a lot of very good players except in the critical area of the pitch….at the back. We need top class defenders to come through and looking at the Premier League, who are they?

I think that's the problem though, in that we do need to play to our strengths and you're right we do have a problem at the back, so let's make it less critical. 

With the talent that we have and the technical ability that we have among the front 6 they should provide an adequate screen for the defenders. We should be dictating midfield and expecting most of the time the ball to be in the oppositions half,,, and it's about time we fronted up to the top teams with the same intent. Sure if you need to pass the ball around a bit and wait for the press, do it, but don't do it from the back.

Yes teams will play a low block, but we do have the mavericks with the ability to beat their man or to play the ball in behind (if the attackers are showing the right movement). 

[MarcusX]

8 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Is the hype around Bellingham valid? He was very poor last night, even with the goal.

It is a shame how Alli’s career turned out, but personally I think at the same stage in their careers, Alli was ahead of Bellingham in terms of ability.

Of course you can look at Bellingham winning the champions league, can’t take that away from him. I do believe Alli could have achieved this as well had managed to stay on the path he was during the first few years at Spurs. Unfortunately for Alli he was at a club who are never going to win any trophies! But he personal stats during the 15/16 and 16/17 seasons were phenomenal.

Player for player, at the peak of what we have seen from them both, a prime Deli Alli beats Bellingham in my opinion.

At roughly the same age one was signing for Real Madrid and the other was runner up in League 1 behind the might Bristol City

[robin_unreliant]

16 minutes ago, 38MC said:

I think that's the problem though, in that we do need to play to our strengths and you're right we do have a problem at the back, so let's make it less critical. 

With the talent that we have and the technical ability that we have among the front 6 they should provide an adequate screen for the defenders. We should be dictating midfield and expecting most of the time the ball to be in the oppositions half,,, and it's about time we fronted up to the top teams with the same intent. Sure if you need to pass the ball around a bit and wait for the press, do it, but don't do it from the back.

Yes teams will play a low block, but we do have the mavericks with the ability to beat their man or to play the ball in behind (if the attackers are showing the right movement). 

Can't say I saw much technical ability from the front 6 last night. Last ball was generally poor, lost possession and allowed Greece to break on us over and over again.

Foden is a shadow of his Man City form because he doesn't have all those foreign players round him who DO have that technical ability. I still think we overhype English players who often benefit at their clubs from non-English players making them look better.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Ron W said:

Bellingham was voted as La Liga's best player of the year in his first year at the biggest, most pressurised club in the world.

He's burnt out in the last six months or so and he still carries England at times.

He's Irish when he plays for Madrid though remember.

Yet another mockery of "international" football.

[Numero Uno]

3 hours ago, KegCity said:

I've been really impressed with Marc Guehi in the last 12 months and have high hopes for Branthwaite.

Guehi is solid and better than what was out there last night. Bra the site is the one we need to kick on otherwise the cupboard is bare. Pickford could do with a genuine challenger too. I don’t think playing in a shite Everton side has pushed him on and he looked she’ll shocked last night.

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, robin_unreliant said:

Can't say I saw much technical ability from the front 6 last night. Last ball was generally poor, lost possession and allowed Greece to break on us over and over again.

Foden is a shadow of his Man City form because he doesn't have all those foreign players round him who DO have that technical ability. I still think we overhype English players who often benefit at their clubs from non-English players making them look better.

It’s not making them look “better”, your ability is your ability. The players around him at Man City enable that to come out whereas the England team mates don’t. That’s what made Maradona so special, you could literally put that bloke in Liam Mannings Bristol City and he would drag us single handedly to a top 6 finish. You really have to be the dogs bollocks to make that difference.

[Gimme Shelton]

Trent is a great passer but not a great defender,Rico Lewis has great potential but is not yet a great defender. You might get away with one of them in a team but both ... 

[Fpcity]

When did it go wrong for Ali? 

I remember the video with Jose but can't remember a trigger, was it injuries? 

I do worry that Jude will get too big headed and maybe go the way that Pogba went. 

[marcofisher]

3 hours ago, Fpcity said:

When did it go wrong for Ali? 

I remember the video with Jose but can't remember a trigger, was it injuries? 

I do worry that Jude will get too big headed and maybe go the way that Pogba went. 

Dele Alli suffered from addiction to sleeping pills and mental health issues. Currently 28 and without a club. 

[Fpcity]

15 hours ago, marcofisher said:

Dele Alli suffered from addiction to sleeping pills and mental health issues. Currently 28 and without a club. 

Ah I remember now! 

Wow only 28. Remember the bit he did on sky sports earlier this year. Sounded very positive and came across like a nice guy.