Armstrong

[tin]

On 12/10/2024 at 12:23, Qpr Fan said:

I started a thread here when you guys signed him and I hoped he would kick on with you and a skint Qpr could get a resale percentage.

I've just read an article that suggested he's back to what we had. An athlete, who can play for 60mins who has poor instincts in front of goal. Are you guys coming to the same conclusion? 

As I said, I want him to rip this league up with you the City and you sell him on for big bucks. 

Are you being patient with him, or generally fed up with what you've got?

 

He’s definitely strong and quick but I’m not sure I’d call him an athlete as he lacks stamina, as per him being subbed off after the hour. 

For me, he looks every inch the player his goalscoring record suggests he is. His first touch is often poor and he’s no natural goalscorer.

I don’t think he’s exactly suited to playing the lone striker role either and would be better utilised out wide in a front three. Not worth £2m so far. 

[spudski]

11 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The brain is coached. No human leaves the womb with a natural ability to play football.

That's not exactly true.

I know exactly what WSMSeagul means.

Quotes used as they explain it better than I can. 

Expert and elite performance can only be explained by a complex combination of genetic, neurobiological and environmental factors,

Furthermore, practice is necessary for elite performance; however, it is insufficient. If it were sufficient, everyone who engaged in deliberate and motivated practice would become an elite performer. Yet, there are limiting factors – ie, physical, emotional, cognitive, learning, developmental and sociopolitical.

 

Some players have natural skills that make them stand out as finishers in football. However, many factors can limit a player's ability to become an elite performer, including physical, emotional, cognitive, learning, developmental, and sociopolitical factors. 

 

[Robbored]

16 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The brain is coached. No human leaves the womb with a natural ability to play football.

Not true Cowshed - lots of infants can and some do grow into natural footballers. Their ability is inherent but obviously it’s not only factor that makes a difference.

Other factors make a significant impact. Things like genetics - why do so many professional footballers have sons who also become professionals?

Physicality and stamina can be developed of course and to a degree cognitive awareness of the game can also be developed. I always think of David Beckham who isn’t blessed with the smartest mind but his genius was in his feet, same with Rooney. 

 

[Basshead64]

10 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I doubt we have a "finishing" coach or "shooting" coach or even "defensive" coach. Just 27 passing coaches , separated into short , sideways and back 

Fair shout Mike . Off to Middlesbrough  next week not in hope of 3 points but good day out with good mates .

[Cowshed]

21 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Not true Cowshed - lots of infants can and some do grow into natural footballers. Their ability is inherent but obviously it’s not only factor that makes a difference.

Other factors make a significant impact. Things like genetics - why do so many professional footballers have sons who also become professionals?

Physicality and stamina can be developed of course and to a degree cognitive awareness of the game can also be developed. I always think of David Beckham who isn’t blessed with the smartest mind but his genius was in his feet, same with Rooney. 

 

 

The point was about natural finishing ability. Could you explain how the brain calculates angles, force, spacial awareness etc without being trained? Our brain is trained before it can instruct our motor cortex to execute the physical movement to strike a football. 

Cognitive awareness in football is entirely developed. The brain stores training, the experiences, the patterns, the movements, and this information is stored in mirror neurons for the brain to use. The genius of Beckham was in his head. 

 

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

The point was about natural finishing ability. Could you explain how the brain calculates angles, force, spacial awareness etc without being trained? Our brain is trained before it can instruct our motor cortex to execute the physical movement to strike a football. 

Cognitive awareness in football is entirely developed. The brain stores training, the experiences, the patterns, the movements, and this information is stored in mirror neurons for the brain to use. The genius of Beckham was in his head. 

 

It’s instinct Cowshed. Many strikers can’t tell you how they just happened to be in the right place at the right time, There’s nothing ‘trained’ about it.

 

[Cowshed]

11 hours ago, Robbored said:

It’s instinct Cowshed. Many strikers can’t tell you how they just happened to be in the right place at the right time, There’s nothing ‘trained’ about it.

 

No. A baby cannot have a natural finishing ability for football. A baby does not know what football is. The abilities to play football, and the skill and expertise to play football is developed. Footballers develop unconscious competencies to play their sport. The brain develops through training the ability to make complex decisions subconsciously  in everyday life, and in sport. 

The baby cannot score a goal, it cannot make instant decision to decide which part of its foot it will strike the ball with, how hard, in what direct etc. With training humans start to create mental and physical competencies to make these decisions, and with deliberate focussed practice the ability, the skill to do so becomes internalised and neural. 

[Rob k]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

No. A baby cannot have a natural finishing ability for football. A baby does not know what football is. The abilities to play football, and the skill and expertise to play football is developed. Footballers develop unconscious competencies to play their sport. The brain develops through training the ability to make complex decisions subconsciously  in everyday life, and in sport. 

The baby cannot score a goal, it cannot make instant decision to decide which part of its foot it will strike the ball with, how hard, in what direct etc. With training humans start to create mental and physical competencies to make these decisions, and with deliberate focussed practice the ability, the skill to do so becomes internalised and neural. 

Just so I’m clear on what your saying, are you saying i could have been as good as Wayne Rooney?

[spudski]

This article talks about how genetics plays a big part in being a ' natural born goal scorer'.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/feb/08/goalscorers-natural-nurtured-footballers-coaches-scientists-strikers

[Robbored]

32 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

No. A baby cannot have a natural finishing ability for football. A baby does not know what football is. The abilities to play football, and the skill and expertise to play football is developed. Footballers develop unconscious competencies to play their sport. The brain develops through training the ability to make complex decisions subconsciously  in everyday life, and in sport. 

The baby cannot score a goal, it cannot make instant decision to decide which part of its foot it will strike the ball with, how hard, in what direct etc. With training humans start to create mental and physical competencies to make these decisions, and with deliberate focussed practice the ability, the skill to do so becomes internalised and neural. 

We’re not talking babies here Cowshed……Instincts develop thru gradual development into adulthood.

Some years ago I was involved in running a boys team from 8-15. Two of those lads had greater instincts than the others and were far an away our best players. When thru on goal they both naturally/instinctively knew how to beat the keeper. I remember one of them dinking the ball as the keeper came out and on other occasions they went around the keeper - they were not ‘trained’ in any fashion on what to do in that situation - they just instinctively knew.

I don’t believe that kind of instinct can be coached. Players either have it or they don’t.

 

 

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

We’re not talking babies here Cowshed……Instincts develop thru gradual development into adulthood.

Some years ago I was involved in running a boys team from 8-15. Two of those lads had greater instincts than the others and were far an away our best players. When thru on goal they both naturally/instinctively knew how to beat the keeper. I remember one of them dinking the ball as the keeper came out and on other occasions they went around the keeper - they were not ‘trained’ in any fashion on what to do in that situation - they just instinctively knew.

I don’t believe that kind of instinct can be coached. Players either have it or they don’t.

 

 

Read the article I posted above RR.

You can coach to improve.

But the best footballers and goalscorers have genetics that help. 

How their brain works, and how they control emotions.

You can train as much as you like...physically and mentally. However, everyone is genetically different. And your genetic cognitive skills can be trained to the limit your genetics allow. 

Otherwise we'd all be able to be a top pro footballer. 

The same in all walks of life. 

Be it, Sport, Art, Music etc etc. 

[Cowshed]

39 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Just so I’m clear on what your saying, are you saying i could have been as good as Wayne Rooney?

Have you trained your mind and body like Wayne Rooney? Have you trained your mind and body like any elite sportsman? 

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

We’re not talking babies here Cowshed……Instincts develop thru gradual development into adulthood.

Some years ago I was involved in running a boys team from 8-15. Two of those lads had greater instincts than the others and were far an away our best players. When thru on goal they both naturally/instinctively knew how to beat the keeper. I remember one of them dinking the ball as the keeper came out and on other occasions they went around the keeper - they were not ‘trained’ in any fashion on what to do in that situation - they just instinctively knew.

I don’t believe that kind of instinct can be coached. Players either have it or they don’t.

 

 

So kids leave the womb with the ability to dink a ball over a keeper narrowing the angle?

I do not know where you were getting talents like that from, but in my thirty years in coaching, and working in football skills schools I have never seen one kid like that. 

What you are referring to in regards instinct is vision, or football intelligence. The skill to react to situations, to respond to the patterns in front of the player is developed. There is a direct relation in how individuals react. The more developed skill an individual possesses the wider their responses are, and the more efficient they become at tasks. 

As pointed out earlier these skills are stored neurally. Stored and then used on demand to instruct our motor cortex to move our limbs. 

 

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, spudski said:

Read the article I posted above RR.

You can coach to improve.

But the best footballers and goalscorers have genetics that help. 

How their brain works, and how they control emotions.

You can train as much as you like...physically and mentally. However, everyone is genetically different. And your genetic cognitive skills can be trained to the limit your genetics allow. 

Of course coaching helps spudski but it’s not a panacea.

I’ve been a qualified bowls coach for almost 15 years and can tell within half a dozen deliveries whether a newbie will develop into a decent player. Some have a natural ability which becomes obvious very quickly whilst other don’t 

We/ I can advise/guide as a coach on the more intricate elements of the game which generally happens once the newbie has grasped the basics and taken part in training games.

Theres one particular lady who only started bowling aged 63 after her husband passed away. Within two years she’s now playing for Somerset County - quite rise given that she’s only been bowling 3 years - natural ability that was probably closeted until she picked up a bowl.

 

[Rob k]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Have you trained your mind and body like Wayne Rooney? Have you trained your mind and body like any elite sportsman? 

So kids leave the womb with the ability to dink a ball over a keeper narrowing the angle?

I do not know where you were getting talents like that from, but in my thirty years in coaching, and working in football skills schools I have never seen one kid like that. 

What you are referring to in regards instinct is vision, or football intelligence. The skill to react to situations, to respond to the patterns in front of the player is developed. There is a direct relation in how individuals react. The more developed skill an individual possesses the wider their responses are, and the more efficient they become at tasks. 

As pointed out earlier these skills are stored neurally. Stored and then used on demand to instruct our motor cortex to move our limbs. 

 

No, but i doubt Wayne Rooney was training his mind and body at 6/7 years old to be an elite sportsman either. We have all played, we all know from a very early age who the best footballers/rugby players/cricketers were and funnily enough they all tended to be the same people. I watched my nephew play rugby the other day in under 9s. They have  All had the same training but some are just miles better than the rest and it’s obvious.

[Robbored]

12 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Have you trained your mind and body like Wayne Rooney? Have you trained your mind and body like any elite sportsman? 

So kids leave the womb with the ability to dink a ball over a keeper narrowing the angle?

I do not know where you were getting talents like that from, but in my thirty years in coaching, and working in football skills schools I have never seen one kid like that. 

What you are referring to in regards instinct is vision, or football intelligence. The skill to react to situations, to respond to the patterns in front of the player is developed. There is a direct relation in how individuals react. The more developed skill an individual possesses the wider their responses are, and the more efficient they become at tasks. 

As pointed out earlier these skills are stored neurally. Stored and then used on demand to instruct our motor cortex to move our limbs. 

 

Both lads were scouted by City and offered places but neither actually saw it thru. One told me that “they’re all better than me” when he was about 12 and lost interest. Not sure what happened to the other lad tho.

[Rob k]

15 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Think his total xG is 2.82 this season for his two goals.

It’s still a small sample, let’s see where he is Xmas.  But all his 1v1s have required shots outside of the lines of the posts.  His two goals come from between the posts.  Keep him mid-goals he’ll possibly do ok.

He’s not a finisher. I ain’t arguing that.

Im happy to see where he is at Xmas, hopefully he’s sitting with 6 or 7 goals against his name or we have changed formation. Middlesbrough will tell us more about that after a few weeks training.

[spudski]

10 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Of course coaching helps spudski but it’s not a panacea.

I’ve been a qualified bowls coach for almost 15 years and can tell within half a dozen deliveries whether a newbie will develop into a decent player. Some have a natural ability which becomes obvious very quickly whilst other don’t 

We/ I can advise/guide as a coach on the more intricate elements of the game which generally happens once the newbie has grasped the basics and taken part in training games.

Theres one particular lady who only started bowling aged 63 after her husband passed away. Within two years she’s now playing for Somerset County - quite rise given that she’s only been bowling 3 years - natural ability that was probably closeted until she picked up a bowl.

 

I agree...coaching only helps to a point. 

First of all we have the genetics, brain function, ability to understand and co ordinate. 

We pick up many abilities during our childhood. 

And a lot depends on what we experience, are taught, environment etc. 

You could line up 30 kids and coach them shooting skills over a year everyday. 

The ones who are able to take on those skills, rise to the top. 

A lot depends on genetics and how the brain interprets all the information and puts it into practice.

Anyone who says everyone can be coached to the same level is talking bollox. 

Before qualifying for my coaching qualifications, we were coached on how to coach, so to speak. 

What was very useful when learning, was that most people learn by watching and copying, with very little technical explanation. 

There are a smaller percentage that can't do this, as their brain functions differently. They have to have it explained to them technically how things work. Actions and watching weren't enough. 

Biomechanics, angles, feel, movement...all having to be explained. Which for any coach who doesn't think like that, is a real ball ache. 

Lots of kids start off by watching and copying what they see. They don't need it explaining to them. 

 

 

[MarcusX]

14 hours ago, Robbored said:

Not true Cowshed - lots of infants can and some do grow into natural footballers. Their ability is inherent but obviously it’s not only factor that makes a difference.

Other factors make a significant impact. Things like genetics - why do so many professional footballers have sons who also become professionals?

Physicality and stamina can be developed of course and to a degree cognitive awareness of the game can also be developed. I always think of David Beckham who isn’t blessed with the smartest mind but his genius was in his feet, same with Rooney. 

 

Answer to that middle line is probably as much about the access they have to high quality coaching and privilidges that the average person wouldn't receive.

What makes you think David Beckham "isn't blessed with the smartest mind"? Might not get an invite to Mensa any time soon, but he had an incredibly intelligent football brain - "same with Rooney".

I'd also argue Beckham was quite smart in that he knew football wasn't forever and that's why he ventured down other avenues of income.

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, Rob k said:

No, but i doubt Wayne Rooney was training his mind and body at 6/7 years old to be an elite sportsman either. We have all played, we all know from a very early age who the best footballers/rugby players/cricketers were and funnily enough they all tended to be the same people. I watched my nephew play rugby the other day in under 9s. They have  All had the same training but some are just miles better than the rest and it’s obvious.

Wayne Rooney at a early age had accumulated thousands of hours of training. So, yes Wayne Rooney's skill development at an early age was at an elite level. Wayne Rooney's football development from very early ages was remarkable because he was so focussed as a child on acquiring skill. 

At elite level there is a constant theme of early years development and focussed deliberate training. The exceptional intensive training of Messi started as an infant. 

Rooney and Messi started from massive skill foundations they created by developing that matter in their heads.  

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

Both lads were scouted by City and offered places but neither actually saw it thru. One told me that “they’re all better than me” when he was about 12 and lost interest. Not sure what happened to the other lad tho.

So the boys who didn't see it through were not naturals! 

The point answered was regarding natural born finishers. How can a human at birth be a natural born finisher in a sport they cannot know exists, or know how to play? 

As you knew kids who instinctively knew how to score goals, are there other skills they possessed naturally? Could they predict the future? How about the lottery numbers?

Vision, football intelligence is nurtured. We as humans are not born with these skills. There is no football gene. Mother nature did not create humans also to be good at football. 

Vision, football intelligence is a developed process using the pre frontal cortex, the amygdala x visual experiences of the patterns of football, a process that feeds decision making - This includes finishing. 

Edited Monday at 12:13 by Cowshed

[BCFC31]

On 12/10/2024 at 13:29, Never to the dark side said:

You don't teach footballers how to do one on one's with the goal keepers,its a gift you are born with.

Having said that if Armstrong started at home with Malula, I think Malula could benifit from the bustling Armstrong.

Mayulu 

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Wayne Rooney at a early age had accumulated thousands of hours of training. So, yes Wayne Rooney's skill development at an early age was at an elite level. Wayne Rooney's football development from very early ages was remarkable because he was so focussed as a child on acquiring skill. 

At elite level there is a constant theme of early years development and focussed deliberate training. The exceptional intensive training of Messi started as an infant. 

Rooney and Messi started from massive skill foundations they created by developing that matter in their heads.  

So the boys who didn't see it through were not naturals! 

The point answered was regarding natural born finishers. How can a human at birth be a natural born finisher in a sport they cannot know exists, or know how to play? 

As you knew kids who instinctively knew how to score goals, are there other skills they possessed naturally? Could they predict the future? How about the lottery numbers?

Vision, football intelligence is nurtured. We as humans are not born with these skills. There is no football gene. Mother nature did not create humans also to be good at football. 

Vision, football intelligence is a developed process using the pre frontal cortex, the amygdala x visual experiences of the patterns of football, a process that feeds decision making - This includes finishing. 

Phew!!!!…………

I completely understand your points Cowshed but you seem to have overlooked ‘instinct’. The best finishers have the ability to be in the right place at the right time.  It’s similar in some ways to having a sixth sense or to having a ‘hunch’ of where to be. It’s a knack and something that cannot be coached - how did a 9year old know to dink the ball over the keeper? he certainly wasn’t taught or coached on that particular skill.

However……he may have seen something like that on MotD……who knows?

Players either have it or they don’t. The ones that do have it are the ones that go for mega bucks.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

3 hours ago, Robbored said:

Of course coaching helps spudski but it’s not a panacea.

I’ve been a qualified bowls coach for almost 15 years and can tell within half a dozen deliveries whether a newbie will develop into a decent player. Some have a natural ability which becomes obvious very quickly whilst other don’t 

We/ I can advise/guide as a coach on the more intricate elements of the game which generally happens once the newbie has grasped the basics and taken part in training games.

Theres one particular lady who only started bowling aged 63 after her husband passed away. Within two years she’s now playing for Somerset County - quite rise given that she’s only been bowling 3 years - natural ability that was probably closeted until she picked up a bowl.

 

The notion that someone has a genetic predisposition to be good at bowls (bowls, for God’s sake!) has to be one of the funniest things I’ve ever read on OTIB.

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

The notion that someone has a genetic predisposition to be good at bowls (bowls, for God’s sake!) has to be one of the funniest things I’ve ever read on OTIB.

What’s funny about it DP?……….

Ever since I first delivered a bowl I was pretty good at it. Over the years I’ve played against plenty of guys better than me but had the willingness to learnt from them.

Have you ever delivered a bowl?

[spudski]

3 hours ago, Robbored said:

What’s funny about it DP?……….

Ever since I first delivered a bowl I was pretty good at it. Over the years I’ve played against plenty of guys better than me but had the willingness to learnt from them.

Have you ever delivered a bowl?

That's probably because you developed hand eye coordination when you were younger RR. 

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, spudski said:

That's probably because you developed hand eye coordination when you were younger RR. 

Yep, not unusual to find someone who’s good at one sport having developed certain skills, finds another sport not too bad to take up, is it?

At senior school, how many kids in the footie team, were in the rugby team and cricket team, even though some of them had played little rugby and cricket at junior school.

[Robbored]

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

That's probably because you developed hand eye coordination when you were younger RR. 

Probably spud - I used to be a decent County standard darts player 40+years ago but the commitment became too much when two small children were born with 18/12 of each other.