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Tuchel for England Manager

Lorenzos Only Goal

By Lorenzos Only Goal
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Rob k

Rob k

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Markthehorn said:

Let’s be honest - which English manager would fans be happy to have ?


I don’t think anyone would have universally supported tbh .

I agree - when you look at it, we basically need a manager who has got that bit extra in his locker for 2/3 games every 2/4 years to get us over the line. I don’t see an English manager currently with that experience. Of course I’d prefer an English manager, but i certainly understand the thinking behind this appointment. 

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Robbored

Robbored

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, BigTone said:

His start date makes no difference to my enthusiasm.  As for Southgate I think he did well despite being too cautious. Feel he should have stayed personally.

Not for me - in m view he did the right thing my stepping down. I could hardly watch anymore turgid, one paced play under Southgate. Hopefully under TT we’ll see England play with handbrake off. 

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Harry

Harry

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

Fortunately England don't play League football.

Tuchel reached 4 out of 5 Finals of cup competitions at Chelsea. 

He did. At a team pretty much expected to get to the finals (at least semi’s) of cup competitions. 
 

2021 FA Cup Final. Lost. 
2021 Champions League Final. Won (vs another English side, not saying that makes it easier but it basically makes it easier). 
2022 FA Cup Final. Lost. 
2022 EFL Cup Final. Lost. 
 

So yes, he did reach 4 out of 5 finals. And lost 3 of them. The one win coming in the champs league vs English competition during Covid with no fans. 
 

No different to Gareth then. Get to the finals but lose. 
 

For the record (and regards the other posts/conversation here), I am not opposed to Tuchel. 
And I am definitely not bothered one iota that he’s German. 
All I’m wondering is why he’s so highly revered when I think he’s been a lucky manager at many of his jobs and has mostly taken his teams backwards. 
 

But I’m not against the appointment. I think it will prove very interesting. 

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downendcity

downendcity

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Markthehorn said:

Let’s be honest - which English manager would fans be happy to have ?


I don’t think anyone would have universally supported tbh .

Other than Pep, or perhaps Klopp. Fans always seem to want someone other than the one appointed.

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Baldyman

Baldyman

Posted
Posted

I think it’s really easy to pick apart the record of ANY manager in world football including Pep ( given the financial advantages he has had throughout his managerial career) . There is NO English Manager anywhere in the world right now who has achieved anything in football worthy of being given the England job . The FA have chosen a manager who is the total opposite to Southgate as a personality . He is first and foremost a motivator who has excelled in getting club teams through knockout cup competitions . In Southgate , we got someone who reshaped the National set up and brought through young talent from the Under 21’s but now we have that abundance of talent we need a motivator and an individual who excels at knockout football , not someone who needs to be there for years to reshape anything . I think Tuchel is therefore an excellent choice ! 

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Sir Geoff

Sir Geoff

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, Harry said:

He did. At a team pretty much expected to get to the finals (at least semi’s) of cup competitions. 
 

2021 FA Cup Final. Lost. 
2021 Champions League Final. Won (vs another English side, not saying that makes it easier but it basically makes it easier). 
2022 FA Cup Final. Lost. 
2022 EFL Cup Final. Lost. 
 

So yes, he did reach 4 out of 5 finals. And lost 3 of them. The one win coming in the champs league vs English competition during Covid with no fans. 
 

No different to Gareth then. Get to the finals but lose. 
 

For the record (and regards the other posts/conversation here), I am not opposed to Tuchel. 
And I am definitely not bothered one iota that he’s German. 
All I’m wondering is why he’s so highly revered when I think he’s been a lucky manager at many of his jobs and has mostly taken his teams backwards. 
 

But I’m not against the appointment. I think it will prove very interesting. 

Not sure who holds him in high reverence. Probably the best pick of a mediocre bunch at this time and one the FA knew they had to get over the line before Man U appointed him. Re your second point probably the reason he's only got an 18 month contract.

With  Potter the only other realistic candidate at this time, probably better to try something different rather than go for Southgate lite.

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MarcusX

MarcusX

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Robbored said:

Ultimately it’s all about results Tone and Tuchel doesn’t start until 1:1:2025 and I’ll reserve judgement until he takes over.

Despite Southgate producing dull and uninteresting football ( copied from GJ no doubt) he had the best England record than any of his predecessors.

TT has a tough act to follow.

It's complete revisionism to say Southgate only produced "dull and uninteresting" football - but then so is it to say the same about GJ.

The last tournament was poor, but there were a lot of very good performances along the way.

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Coxy27

Coxy27

Posted
Posted
38 minutes ago, Harry said:

He did. At a team pretty much expected to get to the finals (at least semi’s) of cup competitions. 
 

2021 FA Cup Final. Lost. 
2021 Champions League Final. Won (vs another English side, not saying that makes it easier but it basically makes it easier). 
2022 FA Cup Final. Lost. 
2022 EFL Cup Final. Lost. 
 

So yes, he did reach 4 out of 5 finals. And lost 3 of them. The one win coming in the champs league vs English competition during Covid with no fans. 
 

No different to Gareth then. Get to the finals but lose. 
 

For the record (and regards the other posts/conversation here), I am not opposed to Tuchel. 
And I am definitely not bothered one iota that he’s German. 
All I’m wondering is why he’s so highly revered when I think he’s been a lucky manager at many of his jobs and has mostly taken his teams backwards. 
 

But I’m not against the appointment. I think it will prove very interesting. 

Mostly taken his teams backwards?

That's BS - I'm not sure you can say he took any of his club sides backwards.

The champions league final he won was against what most consider the best club side in the world - but you're arbitrarily discrediting that based on them being English? Doesn't make sense.

I know you are informed about football and have demonstrated that previously - but this is way off.

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2015

2015

Posted
Posted

Just look at the state of the coaching in England.

The only manager who has gone through the leagues recently and hasn't played at the top flight level is Eddie Howe.

The managers who come into clubs in the Championship who have gone through all of their coaching badges usually struggle to make an impact. They are taught to play a certain way, but that is not reality, this isn't a playstation game where you can pass the ball all game and win most your matches. Our coaching has fallen way behind Europe. 

Scott Parker, Michael Carrick, Wayne Rooney, Frank Lampard have all been ok in the championship but the common denominator is that they all played top flight football for a long time and they understand that you have to have more than just a Plan A that most of our textbook FA Coaches have. 

We have to have a foreign coach if we want to win something in my opinion because none of our Managers are good enough, and infact the last two world class managers English football had was Brian Clough and Bobby Robson.

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Robbored

Robbored

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

The last tournament was poor, but there were a lot of very good performances along the way.

The last two Euro’s were okay reaching both finals but getting there was like watching grass grow………….:sleeping: Uninspiring, turgid, side to side passes then back to the keeper………:disapointed2se:

Southgate stepping down was the best thing he could have done. At least under TT we’ll get to see some free flowing football. 

 

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The chief

The chief

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Ignoring the whys and whats and wherefores of Tuchel against other candidates.

The whole argument of “We’re England, the manager should be English” - and particularly the bit of “he’s German - euggh” grinds my gears somewhat.

One week ago, we were looking at Irish international Lee Carsley taking over and I didn’t see the arguments then.

More broadly, take this parallel - I run a U13s team. I’m in my 40s. I pick players for that team who qualify for that team but I’m the best (or the only one who’ll put their hand up) coach. But in terms of representation on the pitch, the players have to meet certain parameters (ie they must be U13) - and better than others at that age (or more pertinently a better team) if they want to win 


Thats all this is. It’s still a representation of the best footballers the country has to offer. The coaches nationality is neither here nor there. Lennox Lewis was a British world champion with American Manny Steward in his corner. The lionesses won the Euros with a Dutch coach. Bazball is played by Englishmen with a kiwi coach. This isn’t unique.

So, by all means debate on his abilities. His nationality? Nah.

Respectfully disagree- don’t think there were many advocates for Carsley to do the job. 
Many people, myself included think that the same rules should apply to manager as to players . It’s one country vs another. 
Throwing money at the best coaches around seems all a bit premier league, fantasy football for me and diminishes what internationals are about . 
Would rather have had potter or Howe than TT personally. 

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Markthehorn

Markthehorn

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

It's complete revisionism to say Southgate only produced "dull and uninteresting" football - but then so is it to say the same about GJ.

The last tournament was poor, but there were a lot of very good performances along the way.

It did feel an end of an era but Southgate certainly gained respect from the players and gave them more confidence. 

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, LondonRobin said:

to be correct so only 3 pl managers actually

 

26 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

I thought McKenna is Irish?

 

19 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Mckenna is Irish (North so close but not English)

I read McKenna was born in England?

Martin I forgot he was Scottish although he has an English accent- let's go with 3 then.

Quite so @2015 whether 3 or 5 it's so very low.

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Harry

Harry

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Coxy27 said:

Mostly taken his teams backwards?

That's BS - I'm not sure you can say he took any of his club sides backwards.

The champions league final he won was against what most consider the best club side in the world - but you're arbitrarily discrediting that based on them being English? Doesn't make sense.

I know you are informed about football and have demonstrated that previously - but this is way off.

 

1 hour ago, Selred said:

He hasn't though.

Improved Dortmund. Chelsea haven't been anywhere near a final since Tuchel. PSG haven't got to a Champions League final before or after Tuchel.

As said before chaps, I’m not against his appointment but I was just querying why he has ‘elite’ status with many people. 
I laid out his track record back on page 1 (copied below) where I think that after an initial positive impact he invariably then gets worse results in the next season.

Not winning the league* with Munich, for me, should be seen as a massive failure.
*caveat - in his only ‘full season’.  He did of course win it having only been in charge for 10 games and nearly blew it, with Dortmund failing to beat Mainz at home on the final day! 
 

I’m not anti-Tuchel, and he’s clearly a good coach. I’m just unsure of the ‘elite’ status he seems to have. 
 

PSG the year before he arrived won the title with 93 points and +79 goal difference. 
The season he took over they won it with 90 points and +70. 
 

It’s hard to judge success in the French league because PSG pretty much dominate every year. So the only judgement can be that they didn’t win it quite as well the year he was there. Sacked in his 2nd season with them lying 3rd!! 
 

Dortmund. 2nd in his first season. 3rd in his second season. Worse.

Munich - First manager in 12 years not to win the league!! 
 

Chelsea. Finished 3rd in his first (half) season. They were 4th the year before he arrived. But then proceeded to take them backwards having spent over a quarter of a billion pounds. 

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Back of the Dolman

Back of the Dolman

Posted
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Super said:

And of course one of the questions to him was about whether he would sing the national anthem. Why is this such an important thing to some people?!

Because people love stirring the pot !

Why would he sing it ? He’s German, so it’s a pretty stupid question.

At the end of the day if he’s up for the challenge and intends to do the best he can for the team and ultimately himself then that’s good enough for me.

It’s a job nothing more and nothing less, he’ll want to win matches and tournaments for his own pride and reputation, so if that brings England success then I’m fine with his appointment.

Seems like this is the modern world now where people are hounded before they even get a proper crack at the job.

Edited by Back of the Dolman
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2015

2015

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, Super said:

And of course one of the questions to him was about whether he would sing the national anthem. Why is this such an important thing to some people?!

The press are a disgrace. They'll do their best to hound him out from day one.

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CliftonCliff

CliftonCliff

Posted
Posted

I’m Bristolian, born and bred, and I don’t sing the national anthem. Being English doesn’t automatically make me a monarchist.

I’m not big on nationalistic sentiments generally, if it comes to that, but adopt an anthem that doesn’t glorify royalty (not least since they’re of German descent, anyway, ironically), and I might get behind it.

The notion that Tuchel should sign “God save the king” is absurd. He’s a German national, for Christ’s sake. Why would he? Would any of us accept a high profile job in Germany and consider that put us under an obligation to sing “Deutschland Uber Alles” at public events?

If he wins us the WC, he can sing Lily Marlene before games, for all I care. What a load of bollocks.

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RedRock

RedRock

Posted
Posted

For £6 million a year to keep my paying public happy, bond with the team and Country I’d sing Humpty Dumpty if it were the nation’s anthem.

Dislike our national anthem (the Welsh, French are far, far better) but if in charge of the national team you sing the nation’s anthem whether you like it, or not. Simples. You commit to the team and nation in my book. 

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Back of the Dolman

Back of the Dolman

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, RedRock said:

For £6 million a year to keep my paying public happy, bond with the team and Country I’d sing Humpty Dumpty if it were the nation’s anthem.

Dislike our national anthem (the Welsh, French are far, far better) but if in charge of the national team you sing the nation’s anthem whether you like it, or not. Simples. You commit to the team and nation in my book. 

I couldn’t care less if he doesn’t sing the national anthem, I don’t expect him to, he’s German !

Lead England to victory, that’s all that matters.

If the public don’t bond with him or aren’t kept happy if he doesn’t sing it then I’m afraid the issue is with them.

He’s committed to the team and the nation by taking the job, that’s good enough for me.

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SecretSam

SecretSam

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Roger Red Hat said:

It's utter nonsense. Maybe they could adapt the anthem to 'England Uber Alles'?

 

44 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Would any of us accept a high profile job in Germany and consider that put us under an obligation to sing “Deutschland Uber Alles” at public events?

Can I point out that the German anthem does not include the line "Deutschland Über Alles", nor has it since WW2.

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Kid in the Riot

Kid in the Riot

Posted
Posted
43 minutes ago, RedRock said:

For £6 million a year to keep my paying public happy, bond with the team and Country I’d sing Humpty Dumpty if it were the nation’s anthem.

Dislike our national anthem (the Welsh, French are far, far better) but if in charge of the national team you sing the nation’s anthem whether you like it, or not. Simples. You commit to the team and nation in my book. 

It's good to see you have such strong principles.  

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PHILINFRANCE

PHILINFRANCE

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Interestingly, I have always found his media skills very impressive.

He is both interesting and erudite, and if you watched and listened to his interviews when he was Chelsea manager when the Abramovitch scandal was in full flow, I thought he handled himself brilliantly.

Oh, and don't forget that English is his second language.

Well, with apologies for quoting myself, it would seem that the BBC agree with me....

The other side of his personality was witnessed by those who saw Tuchel at Chelsea, where he could be charming, extremely humorous and incredibly astute, as well as acting with great dignity and tact when forced into being the front man for a club in meltdown when owner Roman Abramovich's assets were frozen in the wake of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Tuchel was a figure of calm and reason, even insisting he would drive a team bus to Lille himself for a Champions League tie in March 2022 if sanctions meant they were unable to fly.

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DaveInSA

DaveInSA

Posted
Posted
23 hours ago, Harry said:

Every team he’s taken over he’s made worse. 
 

PSG the year before he arrived won the title with 93 points and +79 goal difference. 
The season he took over they won it with 90 points and +70. 
 

It’s hard to judge success in the French league because PSG pretty much dominate every year. So the only judgement can be that they didn’t win it quite as well the year he was there. Sacked in his 2nd season with them lying 3rd!! 
 

Dortmund. 2nd in his first season. 3rd in his second season. Worse.

Munich - First manager in 12 years not to win the league!! 
 

Chelsea. Finished 3rd in his first (half) season. They were 4th the year before he arrived. But then proceeded to take them backwards having spent over a quarter of a billion pounds. 
 

Can someone explain to me why this guy is so revered?? He seems to take over high profile clubs and swiftly take them backwards?? 

With this glowing record of making teams worse, I’m surprised that he hasn’t been on the radar of our tecknikal director.

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Kid in the Riot

Kid in the Riot

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, 2015 said:

Just look at the state of the coaching in England.

The only manager who has gone through the leagues recently and hasn't played at the top flight level is Eddie Howe.

The managers who come into clubs in the Championship who have gone through all of their coaching badges usually struggle to make an impact. They are taught to play a certain way, but that is not reality, this isn't a playstation game where you can pass the ball all game and win most your matches. Our coaching has fallen way behind Europe. 

Scott Parker, Michael Carrick, Wayne Rooney, Frank Lampard have all been ok in the championship but the common denominator is that they all played top flight football for a long time and they understand that you have to have more than just a Plan A that most of our textbook FA Coaches have. 

We have to have a foreign coach if we want to win something in my opinion because none of our Managers are good enough, and infact the last two world class managers English football had was Brian Clough and Bobby Robson.

I don't think the quality of English coaching is as bad as you make out. You need quality coaches to produce technically brilliant players, as we are now producing. 

I don't think you win the u21s world cup, without conceding a goal, unless you have quality coaches. 

Whether they're as good as our continental counterparts just yet, maybe not. But it's getting better.

A big problem over the past decade has been lack of opportunity imo, with Premier League, and now even Championship clubs, favouring foreign coaches.

Compare that with German football, where promoting German coaches through the pyramid is much more of a thing. 

There have been plenty of opportunities for Premier League clubs to appoint English coaches over the years, but they just don't do it. 

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Rob k

Rob k

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I don't think the quality of English coaching is as bad as you make out. You need quality coaches to produce technically brilliant players, as we are now producing. 

I don't think you win the u21s world cup, without conceding a goal, unless you have quality coaches. 

Whether they're as good as our continental counterparts just yet, maybe not. But it's getting better.

A big problem over the past decade has been lack of opportunity imo, with Premier League, and now even Championship clubs, favouring foreign coaches.

Compare that with German football, where promoting German coaches through the pyramid is much more of a thing. 

There have been plenty of opportunities for Premier League clubs to appoint English coaches over the years, but they just don't do it. 

This is the problem the PL having more money to splash - you just pay for the perceived best managers and coaches out there. There is no way an English coach like Potter would have done a worse job than Ten Haag at Man United. 

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Kid in the Riot

Kid in the Riot

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Rob k said:

This is the problem the PL having more money to splash - you just pay for the perceived best managers and coaches out there. There is no way an English coach like Potter would have done a worse job than Ten Haag at Man United. 

International league, and a powerless FA against the Premier League, doesn't help. 

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mozo

mozo

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, Harry said:

He did. At a team pretty much expected to get to the finals (at least semi’s) of cup competitions. 
 

2021 FA Cup Final. Lost. 
2021 Champions League Final. Won (vs another English side, not saying that makes it easier but it basically makes it easier). 
2022 FA Cup Final. Lost. 
2022 EFL Cup Final. Lost. 
 

So yes, he did reach 4 out of 5 finals. And lost 3 of them. The one win coming in the champs league vs English competition during Covid with no fans. 
 

No different to Gareth then. Get to the finals but lose. 
 

For the record (and regards the other posts/conversation here), I am not opposed to Tuchel. 
And I am definitely not bothered one iota that he’s German. 
All I’m wondering is why he’s so highly revered when I think he’s been a lucky manager at many of his jobs and has mostly taken his teams backwards. 
 

But I’m not against the appointment. I think it will prove very interesting. 

Harry, your argument that Tuchel should be expected to win what he won, but should be held accountable for what he didn't, surely also applies to Pep Guardiola?!

Let's not forget that managing the egos at elite level, and shouldering the burden of expectation, is a skill in itself.

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Harry

Harry

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, mozo said:

Harry, your argument that Tuchel should be expected to win what he won, but should be held accountable for what he didn't, surely also applies to Pep Guardiola?!

Let's not forget that managing the egos at elite level, and shouldering the burden of expectation, is a skill in itself.

Yep. True enough. 
However, I guess Man City are an exception to every rule! 

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Spike

Spike

Posted
Posted
On 15/10/2024 at 17:54, TonyTonyTony said:

Ive heard that phrase several times in my life before *kicks cat*

If im in the FA im asking Pep to name his price. He won't want to manage Spain anyway as he is a Catalan

Why would Pep want to manage England though? Unless the charges cripple Man City he's got a striker who could go on to break countless records and become known as an all time great in football, he has the strongest squad in the Premier League and he's on course to beat Alex Fergus ons silverware record of 49 trophies. Pep just needs 12 more trophies to break even and 13 to beat Ferguson and go down as the most successful manager of all time, why would he give that up to try and win a single trophy with England? 

I don't see Pep going into international management any time soon, he's a hungry manager and his football has changed the modern game, I can see him getting as many trophies to his name as possible before he even considers an international job. 

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MarcusX

MarcusX

Posted
Posted
22 hours ago, Robbored said:

The last two Euro’s were okay reaching both finals but getting there was like watching grass grow………….:sleeping: Uninspiring, turgid, side to side passes then back to the keeper………:disapointed2se:

Southgate stepping down was the best thing he could have done. At least under TT we’ll get to see some free flowing football. 

 

Sorry but that's not what I watched against Germany, Ukraine or even Denmark at the Euros in 2021. If you didn't enjoy that journey to the final then football isn't for you.

Group stage against Scotland was certainly turgid but that was always going to be a tricky game.

WC 2022 was good football too, probably some of the best, we should have beat France.

It's plain wrong to just write Southgate off as boring. He had us playing some of the best football I've seen from an England side since maybe 96, or at least 02-04

I think it was the right time to leave though, unless we win something now he'll be looked back on fondly in 10-20 years time like we did of Venables despite him also falling short in a home tournament.

 

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Wanderingred

Wanderingred

Posted
Posted
On 16/10/2024 at 20:32, chinapig said:

This from a paper that was notoriously pro a certain Nazi.

I assume they are still furious that since George I (who couldn't speak English) we have had German monarchs. 😉

Ironic that some of these “patriots” seem to have more in common ideologically with the losers of the war they are still making chants about….

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sephjnr

sephjnr

Posted
Posted
On 16/10/2024 at 13:32, chinapig said:

This from a paper that was notoriously pro a certain Nazi.

I assume they are still furious that since George I (who couldn't speak English) we have had German monarchs. 😉

The worst part is the slur on Sven a) weeks after he died, and b) calling him greedy when he wrote off £2.5m so Notts County wouldn't go bankrupt.

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Robbored

Robbored

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Sorry but that's not what I watched against Germany, Ukraine or even Denmark at the Euros in 2021. If you didn't enjoy that journey to the final then football isn't for you.

Group stage against Scotland was certainly turgid but that was always going to be a tricky game.

WC 2022 was good football too, probably some of the best, we should have beat France.

It's plain wrong to just write Southgate off as boring. He had us playing some of the best football I've seen from an England side since maybe 96, or at least 02-04

Southgate’s style of play was like him as a player at CB - solid and keeping it simple and that transferred in to his England play perfectly.

No flair, sideways passing, back to the keeper, nobody running in behind - dull and one dimensional. A typical “if we keep the ball, the opposition can’t score” mentality.

I really hope that TT will free players up to maximise their game.

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