Front foot, attacking, football (merged)

[Silvio Dante]

I’ve said numerous times it’s not just about points but about performance. And although that was ropey at the back (Hi Luke), I’d take that above most games this season.

We went to win. Even at 2-0 down. We got what we deserved. 
 

No complaints here. Go, and try and win. Always. 

[One Team]

After some of the (largely) most boring games of football in recent times Chris Hogg has presided over two of the most entertaining games of football for ages.

How much we can really attribute to him is hard to say of course, but in terms of football entertainment it’s been really good to watch, if frustrating at times too. Not exactly purist either mind you, but far from dull! 

 

The other thing of course is the absence of Twine; for me we look so much better without him in the team, or at least trying to accommodate him. 

 

Front foot football? Not on Saturday perhaps (albeit effective) but certainly was today.

 

Well done Hogg though! 

[Port Said Red]

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’ve said numerous times it’s not just about points but about performance. And although that was ropey at the back (Hi Luke), I’d take that above most games this season.

We went to win. Even at 2-0 down. We got what we deserved. 
 

No complaints here. Go, and try and win. Always. 

Absolutely, even at 2-0 down their keeper was keeping them in the game. It was nerve jangling but a really good performance across the 90+.

[GrahamC]

Yep, plus that old bloke up top, the one with excellent movement, who can finish.

He’s pretty good, isn’t he?

[BCFCGav]

I’d have preferred an ugly victory! That was entertaining and we played some lovely stuff, but my god it’s frustrating wasting chances. 

[Red Exile]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Yep, plus that old bloke up top, the one with excellent movement, who can finish.

He’s pretty good, isn’t he?

Light years ahead of the chap who replaced him!

[elhombrecito]

So, so, different to the boring football we've been served of late.

If we played with that kind of attacking intent every week, I'd be much more forgiving of the odd poor result. 

[2015]

Agree with the OP. That's the type of football I can get behind and support. Finally some attacking intent and football. 

We were playing between the lines so much this evening which was lovely to see.

Shame about the centre backs

[Slacker]

Showed some great character to get back in it.But their keeper........

Edited 14 hours ago by Slacker

[Graham76]

So far so good. You can forgive the bad start when we end up playing like that.  

[east sussex red]

1 minute ago, Red Exile said:

Light years ahead of the chap who replaced him!

Can't compare...they are different type of players

[One Team]

Just now, Graham76 said:

So far so good. You can forgive the bad start when we end up playing like that.  

Indeed, not saying it’s superb but it’s entertaining. 

[Firstyardleftinbed]

Have to say his in game changes have been very good too. The HT sub was needed tonight and although Armstrong wasn't great when he came on, I still think it was the right call to take Nakhi off towards the end. Maybe Fally instead though in hindsight 

[GrahamC]

2 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Light years ahead of the chap who replaced him!

His contribution was to repeatedly stray offside & pass the ball to the opposition.

Woeful.

[Odd socks]

1 minute ago, east sussex red said:

Can't compare...they are different type of players

You are right   One can score. The other one can’t .

[Red Army 75]

Could be a cracker Saturday 

[Jerseybean]

4 minutes ago, elhombrecito said:

So, so, different to the boring football we've been served of late.

If we played with that kind of attacking intent every week, I'd be much more forgiving of the odd poor result. 

We had 28 shots, 10 on target and 13 corners, it’s been a very, very long time since we’ve seen anything like that! 

[robin_unreliant]

Certainly can't say the last two games have been boring, sideways football. Eventful, entertaining but also very frustrating to watch.

[Red Exile]

2 minutes ago, east sussex red said:

Can't compare...they are different type of players

Yep - quality and the opposite!

On that naive and inept performance its mildly embarrassing we have Sinclair Armstrong in the squad let alone on the pitch.

[lenred]

5 minutes ago, elhombrecito said:

So, so, different to the boring football we've been served of late.

If we played with that kind of attacking intent every week, I'd be much more forgiving of the odd poor result. 

Exactly this.  It has to continue.  

[Topper 123]

How on earth we didn’t batter them I don’t know apart from first 5 minutes where I think we’re still in changing rooms and a keeper who had a worldly that should have been 2-6 easily COYR onto sat 

THATS ENTERTAINMENT as the jam would say 

[Red from afar]

If you're creating chances, surely you bring on a finisher, not a runner? I read Mayulu's attitude isn't great, but if it's that bad, why have him on the bench if you don't intend on playing him? Seems churlish criticising when the general approach was much better than usual, it just seems a shame when bringing Armstrong on took such a sting out of our attack.

[Red Army 79]

To think at the end of the Holden era we couldn’t even win a corner let alone a shot. Never seen us having 28 shots at goal before. 

[Silvio Dante]

6 minutes ago, lenred said:

Exactly this.  It has to continue.  

Totally. 
 

There is a Twine shaped elephant in the room here obviously. Two games, four points, and far more potent attacking wise.

The bit we don’t know is how much (and neither should we know) how much of the last two games has been down to Liams planning and how much has been down to Chris. And tbh, I don’t care as long as we carry on with this intent when Liam is back in the saddle.

Edited 14 hours ago by Silvio Dante

[StGeorge]

6 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

Eventful, entertaining but also very frustrating to watch

Better than sideways, backwards, dull and frustrating! (and more points )

[lenred]

Just now, Silvio Dante said:

Totally. 
 

There is a Twine shaped elephant in the room here obviously. Two games, four points, and far more potent attacking wise.

The bit we don’t know is how much (and neither should we know) how much of the last two games has been down to Liams planning and how much has been down to Chris. And tbh, I don’t care as long as we carry on with this intent when Liam is back in the saddle.

Exactly.   The management team, however it has been done, have shown that the team is extremely capable of being set up to play this way.  And it must continue.   If it does they will win people back.   If it goes back to type it would be a huge retrograde step. 

[Graham76]

Not a dig at Liam, but the players appear to be less robotic over last two games. Fair play to Chris Hogg, another good performance and result. 

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, One Team said:

After some of the (largely) most boring games of football in recent times Chris Hogg has presided over two of the most entertaining games of football for ages.

How much we can really attribute to him is hard to say of course, but in terms of football entertainment it’s been really good to watch, if frustrating at times too. Not exactly purist either mind you, but far from dull! 

 

The other thing of course is the absence of Twine; for me we look so much better without him in the team, or at least trying to accommodate him. 

 

Front foot football? Not on Saturday perhaps (albeit effective) but certainly was today.

 

Well done Hogg though! 

Yep, bonkers stuff.  One where we’ve been the entertainers (tonight), one where our opponents were (Boro).  In some ways the two games were polar opposites.  But we played some bloody good stuff tonight…just still a tad rushed with the final ball…or we could’ve been ahead.

[lenred]

8 minutes ago, Red from afar said:

I read Mayulu's attitude isn't great

Where is that from? 

[McNasty Filth]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, bonkers stuff.  One where we’ve been the entertainers (tonight), one where our opponents were (Boro).  In some ways the two games were polar opposites.  But we played some bloody good stuff tonight…just still a tad rushed with the final ball…or we could’ve been ahead.

Word of the night. If we could Zen our thought process a bit more, we'd be a half decent team (up top anyway). Still work to do at the back

[steviestevieneville]

17 minutes ago, Red from afar said:

If you're creating chances, surely you bring on a finisher, not a runner? I read Mayulu's attitude isn't great, but if it's that bad, why have him on the bench if you don't intend on playing him? Seems churlish criticising when the general approach was much better than usual, it just seems a shame when bringing Armstrong on took such a sting out of our attack.

You read his attitude isn’t great from where , twitter ? Facebook ?

[Fjmcity]

31 minutes ago, BCFCGav said:

I’d have preferred an ugly victory! That was entertaining and we played some lovely stuff, but my god it’s frustrating wasting chances. 

While we did waste some chances tonight, your not going to score with every attempt and I don’t think we could have done much more against a keeper having an absolute stormer 

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

15 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Totally. 
 

There is a Twine shaped elephant in the room here obviously. Two games, four points, and far more potent attacking wise.

The bit we don’t know is how much (and neither should we know) how much of the last two games has been down to Liams planning and how much has been down to Chris. And tbh, I don’t care as long as we carry on with this intent when Liam is back in the saddle.

I think the lack of Twine and Chris Hogg keeping it simple has massive amount to do with it.  The players have looked so over coached recently, almost weighed down with what choice to make to the point of paralysis.  We've got good players and I hope when Liam comes back he carried on with the same premise.

[redkev]

Results aside and the odd poor patches in games I think we have been much more pleasing on the eye this season , I do think sometimes people go on about boring manningball but just because we’re losing or drawing doesnt mean we’re boring 

[Henry]

On Saturday, we seemed to play counter attacking football and then went to a 5 to dig in.

Tonight was chaotic, frantic and bonkers. We made a sub at half time and didn’t change the striker on 60mins.

Both games are ‘unmanning’ as you can get. I think Hogg and the players are taking the opportunity to go off plan a bit and do things their own way.

It will be interesting if Manning comes back and reverts to type, will be under some pressure.

[mozo]

We've been taking the game to teams all season. 

The issue we've had is sometimes the opposition can withstand it, sometimes overpower it.

But we've been positive in every game from the kick off. 

You can see there's a positive mentality. We've got the determination, the bouncebackability.

Defensively there will be worries, but City are a positive team in 2024-25, no question.

[steveybadger]

2 minutes ago, redkev said:

Results aside and the odd poor patches in games I think we have been much more pleasing on the eye this season , I do think sometimes people go on about boring manningball but just because we’re losing or drawing doesnt mean we’re boring 

Yep we were decent / entertaining  v Hull, Cov, Millwall, even Derby first 20! Like tonight, in those games (apart from Millwall) we didn’t put chances away….

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, redkev said:

Results aside and the odd poor patches in games I think we have been much more pleasing on the eye this season , I do think sometimes people go on about boring manningball but just because we’re losing or drawing doesnt mean we’re boring 

I think you only have to look at the reaction to tonight to confirm that the latter part of your post is correct. But it has been boring for a lot of this season and last. Just watch the reaction tonight - people care less about results than intent, because as humans we’d rather die trying than win boring. Manningball has been boring - this season, take just Weds, Cardiff etc. The last two games ar markedly different. I don’t care why (from a football sense, not about Liams tragic scenario), I care that it lasts.

[TheCulturalBomb]

21 minutes ago, lenred said:

Where is that from? 

Red from afar

[The Original OTIB]

12 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

You read his attitude isn’t great from where , twitter ? Facebook ?

Truth Social.

[mozo]

7 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think you only have to look at the reaction to tonight to confirm that the latter part of your post is correct. But it has been boring for a lot of this season and last. Just watch the reaction tonight - people care less about results than intent, because as humans we’d rather die trying than win boring. Manningball has been boring - this season, take just Weds, Cardiff etc. The last two games ar markedly different. I don’t care why (from a football sense, not about Liams tragic scenario), I care that it lasts.

Maybe someone more statty can correct me, but I thought that all the attacking data was showing that there has been a big (positive) change this season from last, re 'intent'.

From Hull to Millwall to Oxford to Stoke. The common thread is more play in the final third and more shots on goal.

Correct me if I'm wrong?

Edited 13 hours ago by mozo

[Silvio Dante]

5 minutes ago, mozo said:

Maybe someone more statty can correct me, but I thought that all the attacking data was showing that there has been a big (positive) change this season from last, re 'intent'.

From Hull to Millwall to Oxford to Stoke. The common thread is more play in the final third and more shots on goal.

Correct me if I'm wrong?

It depends what stats you quote tbf.

We had more possession in all other game pre Boro.

We had 49% possession tonight.

We did 300 less passes than Boro

We had less passes than Stoke tonight.

The way we’ve played the last two games is polar to what we’ve done before. We’ve averaged about 55-60% possession without coming close to threatening as much as we did tonight. Yes, we had more shots than last season but our xG was on the floor on xG per chance. We weren’t creating anything of substance. A lot of low quality, low energy chances.

If you can’t see the difference between that and tonight I don’t know where to go with you.

 

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, mozo said:

We've been taking the game to teams all season. 

The issue we've had is sometimes the opposition can withstand it, sometimes overpower it.

But we've been positive in every game from the kick off. 

You can see there's a positive mentality. We've got the determination, the bouncebackability.

Defensively there will be worries, but City are a positive team in 2024-25, no question.

We haven’t imho.  Some of the season, yes.

We reigned in the early season openness after those heavy defeats, reigned in the inverted no10, etc.  We went back to no press, structure v structure, it started to go dull again.

I think what we see as possession / attacking is in some cases our opponents letting us have the ball…you can take the view you do, it’s not wrong, but I think it’s a bit more nuanced than that.

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, Davefevs said:

We haven’t imho.  Some of the season, yes.

We reigned in the early season openness after those heavy defeats, reigned in the inverted no10, etc.  We went back to no press, structure v structure, it started to go dull again.

I think what we see as possession / attacking is in some cases our opponents letting us have the ball…you can take the view you do, it’s not wrong, but I think it’s a bit more nuanced than that.

[mozo]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

We haven’t imho.  Some of the season, yes.

We reigned in the early season openness after those heavy defeats, reigned in the inverted no10, etc.  We went back to no press, structure v structure, it started to go dull again.

I think what we see as possession / attacking is in some cases our opponents letting us have the ball…you can take the view you do, it’s not wrong, but I think it’s a bit more nuanced than that.

Hasn't our shots stats increased and our xG? 

[Graham76]

19 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

I think the lack of Twine and Chris Hogg keeping it simple has massive amount to do with it.  The players have looked so over coached recently, almost weighed down with what choice to make to the point of paralysis.  We've got good players and I hope when Liam comes back he carried on with the same premise.

It’s a great point.  Liam even admitted to overloading the players with instructions. 

[The Journalist]

58 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

His contribution was to repeatedly stray offside & pass the ball to the opposition.

Woeful.

The worst performance by substitute since Nicky Hunt’s infamous display at Leeds. It was that bad.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, mozo said:

Hasn't our shots stats increased and our xG? 

All season?

Or in total / average?

 

[Dastardly and Muttley]

That was front foot football. The team seem to be playing differently these last two games. Hopefully Liam will see this and continue it when he returns. 
If not, then he really needs to go as it’s becoming blatantly clear what this team could achieve if set up properly.

[Merrick's Marvels]

58 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

Could be a cracker Saturday 

Sadly doubt it as we won't have the ball.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

His contribution was to repeatedly stray offside & pass the ball to the opposition.

Woeful.

If you watched that EA sports FC25 video of City v Rovers earlier, you’ll see that Armstrong seems to mark the keeper, and is offside.  It resembled that tonight.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, mozo said:

Hasn't our shots stats increased and our xG? 

Numerator/denomentor.

You have seven rubbish chances at 0.2 xG you get 1.4 xG but in reality score 0. You have 2 good chance at 0.6 xG you get 1.2 xG but are more likely to score.

This season, we’ve erred to the former. That plays to your stat. But does it win you a game? I’d suggest no. But notably, before his absence, Liam started quoting shots per game as metric - when he knows, as you do, without context, it means nothing.

[mozo]

4 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

If you can’t see the difference between that and tonight I don’t know where to go with you.

 

I'm just thankful that someone of your stature is so patient with me.

Okay, let me dig in to the stats this week and come back to you.

[mozo]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

All season?

Or in total / average?

 

My point earlier was that this season, Manningball (for a cheap, easy phrase), has changed to a more abundant form in an attacking sense.

I had assumed that shots, xG and probably other attacking stats would support that. 

I'm happy to root around myself, but if it's easy for you to shoot me down or support my assumption, that's always appreciated.

[FNQ]

Just now, mozo said:

I'm just thankful that someone of your stature is so patient with me.

Okay, let me dig in to the stats this week and come back to you.

Trust your eyes.. believe what you’ve seeing in front of you.  Name the last game where you’ve SEEN us play with so much real attacking threat.

[cotswoldred2]

44 minutes ago, Graham76 said:

Not a dig at Liam, but the players appear to be less robotic over last two games. Fair play to Chris Hogg, another good performance and result. 

It is a dilemma, you know with Liam's situation, and the superb way the fans have responded. Perhaps Hoggy has given a glimpse to Liam that we can be more positive and less concerned. 

But whatever we are a unit at the moment and who knows where this team can take us?

[mozo]

4 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Numerator/denomentor.

You have seven rubbish chances at 0.2 xG you get 1.4 xG but in reality score 0. You have 2 good chance at 0.6 xG you get 1.2 xG but are more likely to score.

This season, we’ve erred to the former. That plays to your stat. But does it win you a game? I’d suggest no. But notably, before his absence, Liam started quoting shots per game as metric - when he knows, as you do, without context, it means nothing.

Well I'm happy to debate it with you game by game.

[Red from afar]

1 hour ago, lenred said:

Where is that from? 

The Fally Mayulu thread - Corsham Alf contact apparently

48 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Truth Social.

Otib - Fally Mayulu thread

Edited 13 hours ago by Red from afar
Adding screenshot

[Red from afar]

36 minutes ago, TheCulturalBomb said:

Red from afar

Corsham Alf

[mozo]

7 minutes ago, FNQ said:

Trust your eyes.. believe what you’ve seeing in front of you.  Name the last game where you’ve SEEN us play with so much real attacking threat.

Hull and Millwall. There's 2 games where we should have scored several goals.

[FNQ]

5 minutes ago, mozo said:

Hull and Millwall. There's 2 games where we should have scored several goals.

We had more shots on and off target tonight than both those games combined. 

[Silvio Dante]

4 minutes ago, mozo said:

Hull and Millwall. There's 2 games where we should have scored several goals.

Hull - 1.67 xG vs 1.25 xG. We had 15 shots at 0.08 xG per shot, so on that metric created a lot of low quality chances and should have lost the game (Hull less but better quality chances)

Millwall 2.74 xG vs 2.22 xG. Better xG per shot (0.25 xG).

So, against Hull we barely threatened in real terms. And we should have lost the game. Millwall was basketball and the xG was massively impacted by Twine two yards out (about 0.8 xG)

The irony today is everyone is saying we played and attacked well. Better control/domination attacking wise than at any other point in the season. We had 2.51 xG vs 0.77 so dominated the game more than any other but the xG/shot wasn’t great.

What are you arguing? That we were worse tonight than other weeks? Millwall Is the only game this season with more xG but the deviation between the two teams was markedly less.

Every stat says we played better tonight than at any point during the season. Just be happy with that! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interested in wherher Hogg has his slightly different tweaks vs Manning. Early days but I think he does- the substitutions don't seem to be quite so pre planned either.

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

Hull - 1.67 xG vs 1.25 xG. We had 15 shots at 0.08 xG per shot, so on that metric created a lot of low quality chances and should have lost the game (Hull less but better quality chances)

Millwall 2.74 xG vs 2.22 xG. Better xG per shot (0.25 xG).

So, against Hull we barely threatened in real terms. And we should have lost the game. Millwall was basketball and the xG was massively impacted by Twine two yards out (about 0.8 xG)

The irony today is everyone is saying we played and attacked well. Better control/domination attacking wise than at any other point in the season. We had 2.51 xG vs 0.77 so dominated the game more than any other but the xG/shot wasn’t great.

What are you arguing? That we were worse tonight than other weeks? Millwall Is the only game this season with more xG but the deviation between the two teams was markedly less.

Every stat says we played better tonight than at any point during the season. Just be happy with that! 

0.8 for a Penalty however remember.

[mozo]

1 minute ago, FNQ said:

We had more shots on and off target tonight than both those games combined. 

Yes, but we probably had more shots today than 99% of Championship games this season, including Leeds fixtures.

If you're telling me you can't get behind the team unless they have 28 shots on goal, then you're gonna be disappointed.

The point making is we have gone into games with a positive intent this season.

Some games, like Sheffield Wednesday or Coventry, we lost our way, but the stats are still in our favour.

Today we showed great character to get back on the front foot. We also got back on the front foot against Swansea to dominate them.

Hull again dominated away from home.

This is a tough league by the way, but there seems to be an expectation of perfection.

 

 

 

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interested in wherher Hogg has his slightly different tweaks vs Manning. Early days but I think he does- the substitutions don't seem to be quite so pre planned either.

0.8 for a Penalty however remember.

Agree - but if someone is saying we should have scored loads against Hull and we have double the xG tonight and they’re holding that up as an example against tonight’s game, it becomes kind of null.

[Bazooka Joe]

1 hour ago, Jerseybean said:

We had 28 shots, 10 on target and 13 corners, it’s been a very, very long time since we’ve seen anything like that! 

Yeh, good to see so much more positivity and directness.

With regard to those stats, what we achieved in just this one game is akin to what we achieved, at one point, in about four games combined.

Surely we will double these numbers in the Leeds game! 

Edited 13 hours ago by Bazooka Joe

[mozo]

I'm arguing that we've had a positive intent all season. Simple as that.

Edited 12 hours ago by mozo

[FNQ]

11 minutes ago, mozo said:

Yes, but we probably had more shots today than 99% of Championship games this season, including Leeds fixtures.

If you're telling me you can't get behind the team unless they have 28 shots on goal, then you're gonna be disappointed.

The point making is we have gone into games with a positive intent this season.

Some games, like Sheffield Wednesday or Coventry, we lost our way, but the stats are still in our favour.

Today we showed great character to get back on the front foot. We also got back on the front foot against Swansea to dominate them.

Hull again dominated away from home.

This is a tough league by the way, but there seems to be an expectation of perfection.

 

 

 

No, my point and question was when have you SEEN us play with such attacking threat? You’re just trying to deflect. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

We are 3rd in the League for Shots Taken now albeit the Stats don't include Penalties. Just been checking and updating based on tonight vs the listed Stats to Saturday. Leeds and Middlesbrough remain ahead.

[Shauntaylor85]

2 hours ago, One Team said:

After some of the (largely) most boring games of football in recent times Chris Hogg has presided over two of the most entertaining games of football for ages.

How much we can really attribute to him is hard to say of course, but in terms of football entertainment it’s been really good to watch, if frustrating at times too. Not exactly purist either mind you, but far from dull! 

 

The other thing of course is the absence of Twine; for me we look so much better without him in the team, or at least trying to accommodate him. 

 

Front foot football? Not on Saturday perhaps (albeit effective) but certainly was today.

 

Well done Hogg though! 

Twine missing has been the key. Frustrating not to win, still concerning that we don’t convert chances but a big improvement tonight. Albeit they were poor, one of the worst defensive sides in the league I’ve seen for a while.