Academy = Waste Of Money

[richieb]

Including Ronnie Moore who was interviewed on Talksport.

He was keen to point out that clubs outside the top flight would not move forward with home grown talent.

As any 'special' player would only be used to bring in cash to keep funding the club.

Classed clubs with Academies in lower divisions as 'selling clubs' & the reason why they have been established is just to bring in the talent to sell on.And for the ammount of talent that is produced from Academies, the ongoing costs don't lay justification.

Teams like Rotherham have enough young talent from young age & produce the odd gem. All this without the ongoing cost of an Academy.

Begs the question, are we putting much resource into an Academy when we could have an effective youth policy with the same results?

We have been looking to bring in new talent (£150k being mentioned) & I can't see the Academy producing enough talent to fulfill the needs of our 1st team requirements.If we don't get up,we will lose the homegrown talent we have & then we will slip into that 'selling/feeder' club mould.

[Granty]

Begs the question, are we putting much resource into an Academy when we could have an effective youth policy with the same results?

What is the significant difference between the two, obviously the Academy cost a lot of money, but where does the money go?. How much would a decent youth policy cost, I imagine a good youth policy is called an Academy but could be well off the mark.

It would be nice to see the likes of young Hawkins coming through to at least allow the fans to see there is a result, otherwise it has the hallmarks of being a DOME.

[richieb]

What is the significant difference between the two, obviously the Academy cost a lot of money, but where does the money go?.  How much would a decent youth policy cost, I imagine a good youth policy is called an Academy but could be well off the mark.

It would be nice to see the likes of young Hawkins coming through to at least allow the fans to see there is a result, otherwise it has the hallmarks of being a DOME.

I believe the cost of running an official FA approved academy is something like £150k/£250k per year ?

Question to be asked is that if we didn't have an Academy & just the youth development programme as previous, would we still have brought through - Hill, Coles, Burnell, Brown etc? I think we would.

These players are as a result of a local youth policy, not just because we have an academy.

And then you have Hawkins, M Brown etc who have been brought through at a cost & may never see the light of the 1st team.

Then you have the Roseniors of this world who cannot get an outing when restricted in opportunities move on in & what do we get - zelch!

[NATCHER]

I believe the cost of running an official FA approved academy is something like £150k/£250k per year ?

I'm sure the figure of £750,000 per annum was quted at the A.G.M. but it was said to be self funding. Weather the sponsorship, donations and other monies, that make it self funding, would be forthcoming directly to "the club" I would doubt.

[Jimmy]

I dont claim to know anything about the academy (how it runs etc), but i have said in the past that it is an important tool for bringing success to this club. I've said this because of the names just listed by RichieB, the likes of Hill, Coles, Woodman, Aaron and Marvin Brown etc. If these players could have come through and been the players that they are today for our first team/squad then the question does need to be asked - do we need the academy?

I guess its a question of how much does the academy enhance a young players ability, or are these players simply gifted and we as a club have been graced with a large quantity of good young players who have come up through basic ranks.

Correct me if I'm wrong but of our our first team/immediate squad there are Phillips, Carey, Hill, Coles, Amankwaah, Woodman, Doherty, Burnell, Aaron Brown, Darren Hawkins, Marvin Brown - and there was of course Liam Rosenior - all of which have come through our youth academy. Without having researched it; but are there many clubs who can profess to having that amount of homegrown talent in or around their first team?

As unfortunate as it is football is a business and if it would be a good decision to s#### the academy financially then that is the right way forward. However we seem to have been awfully 'fortunate' with the amount of players coming up through the ranks - i doubt (obviously without knowing for certain) that all those named players would be with us now if it were not for the academy.

On the flip side of course we have the examples of Leroy Lita and Simon Clist - both are players that were deemed not good enough by their respective top flight clubs and thus moved down a few leagues - i guess we could abolish the academy and pick from the preverbial s####s.

Is their also not a reverse argument that the academy attracts good young players that come through into our first team? Would some of those named not have ended up in a different clubs academy if all we could offer was basic youth facilities?

Good post, ive been away a while and the board appears to have (to put it one way) 'changed', nice to see a post which sprouts interesting conversation!

[bucksred]

Steve Phillips came from Paulton Rovers didnt he?

Other than that, I would say under the likes of big Joe we were careful buyers, in the main, and it was Wardy, and Benny who really started bringing youngsters through, before that we brought in in discards really.

I aint convinced our Academy is going the right way, but thats due to policy outside their control, ie managerial choices, but it is the only way for us to go forward, cos without a sugar daddy we aint ever going to be able to compete otherwise.

Perhaps someone should be brought in to oversee the various aspects of the team, Striker (I would say most pressing), Midfield, defensive coaching (Where we seem to do ok) and goalkeeping (another area of concern), or do we already have this, in place?

We still need a couple of experienced players in the squad to help create the finished article for the first team squad, of which we only have three Bell, Tins and Butler, and only Tins is a real quality player, with a real loyalty to City. I think I'm right in saying our last player to make 500 appearances was Rob Newman, who was brought through the youth teams, and another advantage to the club.

[Guest Red Sinjen]

If we did not have the academy, I can tell you now that the cream of Bristol/west country youngsters would not be signing for Bristol City. Right now what can be the best recognised youngsters in the west tend to join the BCFC academy, it makes logical sense for all concerned. Back in the old days the cream always used to leave the area with Southampton being a classic club that they would go to. Other clubs that used to poach the best talent from this area were Tottenham, Chelsea and even Man U. I had a friend who was on Southamptons books about 14 years ago (pre-academy days) and he tells me there is no way he would have gone to Southampton if city had an academy back then as would many others, it was considered a backward step or selling yourself short to join BCFC back then. If we keep the best local talent with us then we will have more of a chance of finding the next Matt Hills, Liam R's, D Coles. Until we reach the promised land it is also a harsh economic reality that we may have to sell some of the quality that we have produced to balance the books. Also with the academy you have to look at it as a long term investment and a long term plan. Say we do reach the promised land of Div 1 and beyond, what would be the consequences of not having an academy then?

[RedUn]

Including Ronnie Moore who was interviewed on Talksport.

He was keen to point out that clubs outside the top flight would not move forward with home grown talent.

Of course, managers of teams like Rotherham are going to 'diss' the academies - they have no prayer of benefitting from one.

So far, our's has provided half the squad and there would be far fewer doubters if there had been more money available to fund the other half - there hasn't because of the huge losses that are the legacy of expensive mistakes in the senior player market.

[Port Said Red]

The other Manager quoted on here was Gary Johnson who was instrumental in setting up the academy system while at Watford, he said that academys produce good five a side players.

IMHO if that is the case, then the system needs to be tweaked rather than abandoned.

As for R. Moore's comments surely at a lower level it's as much about survival as improvement, therefore selling the "gem" to balance the books makes good business sense.

The academy system attracts the raw talent far more than a "youth scheme" ever would, as a parent I would be more attracted by the idea of my son not only getting the best sporting facilities but a good standard of education as well which is part of it.

The more raw talent the more gems, but also more wastage only the VERY best will get through.

As far as whether it's value for money, judgung by the age groups it covers I would say it's 2 years to early to really tell. The best benchmark will be those that have been in the system since they were 10/11 years old, Joe Flurry for example.

[brady bunch]

I have always been a big supporter of the academy, but I have to confess that I am starting to change my mind.

The main reason is that value of players in general is now much lower, yet the cost of running the academy is the same or higher each year. From a business point of view if you owned a factory that produces a particularly product for which the selling price had fallen dramatically you would consider closing the factory.

We are always told football is a business, so maybe our factory should close? The money could be used to bring in another Murray, Butler or Goater or a young Tinnion?

The products of our academy have also been on the whole pretty disappointing, most of main players we have came from elsewhere (Philips, Butler, Tinnion, Wilkshire, Peacock, Roberts, Miller). I know that quite a few of our current squad have come from the academy, but a simple reality check here is to look at our division and position, we are in the second division! We seem to be heading for yet another play off position; this indicates to me that the academy is producing lower division journey men footballers in the main.

The two clubs above us and those promoted from this division in the past have done it by bringing in proven players from clubs in higher divisions.

Apart from Crewe who can name a team who got out of this league in recent years with home grown young talent??

I think it is fair to say the jury is out on this one.

[Spud55]

Rotherham, Brighton, Wallsall, and god knows how many others.

The point of the academy is not really useful at division 2 level, Lets say we get to the prem one day and we have no academy, then we are well and truly ######, do you honestly believe we could buy a team capable of staying in the prem ? No chance.

Don't kid yourself, until we had the academy where was all the tallent going ? it certainly wasn't to us was it. Oh thats right we got the players like Stewart, Browning, et al, who were all sat right under our noses.

As the club grows the academy does also. as it is now we still loose players to bigger clubs, but we loose far less than we would, then when we get to division 1 we will be a bigger club and able to attract more tallent from further afield, and mabye temp one or to who would otherwise move away to bigger clubs to stay for a while and then see about moving on, making us more money.

As for Ronnie Moor, he is a fool, Rotherham have always been and always be a selling club, who was the last star they produced ? It wasn't Mark Robbins, he was a man U job, i can think of none, mabye goater, but i doubt he was brought through by rotherham.

As for the Costs, i bet Crewes youth policy doesn't cost that much less than an academy because it is so good. Yet they produce less good players than we do, they produce one or two stars every 5-6 years, they produced Platt god knows how long ago, and thei next star was Danny murphy, and they haven't produced another since. So thats 2 stars since David Platt was a youngster which was what 20 years ago now. I would include seth johnson but hes #### and not even a capable division 1 player.

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

Well lets look at it this way - Our academy is created and a few years later Rovers no longer have any youth players of note and are forced to buy/give larger contracts for every player they need.

They are now struggling to survive with a team of useless pros

City on the other hand have a squad of players who are the right side of 30, with more hot prospects coming through.

[bucksred]

"Rotherham, Brighton, Wallsall, and god knows how many others."

I think Walsall got through with Citys old strength of buying players cheaply, and who came good. Only Brighton have loads of kids as defined there, and I suspect Brighton, may well have had an academy, had they not gone skint.

Would point out though, much as I dislike Manure, they had a crop of kids coming through, who were helped by the likes of Bruce, Cantona, Hughes, McClair, a few you might know, Beckham, Scholes, The Nevilles. Perhaps this is the mistake we are making (I know we'll never get players of that calibre, but a couple more of Tins quality, and loyalty and...). and there are others still coming through- O Shea, Fltcher, Wes Brown etc..You could argue the Arsenal way, is better, but there are a lot of quality young players at the core of both clubs allied to experienced older players (in the case of Arsenal, very bloody old)....

The Academy has to be the way forward, although, it could do better, by not missing out on the Stewarts etc of this world, maybe as it gets more established, these things will come to pass..but we cant afford many more Thorpes, Peacocks, Mortimers etc, or freebies like Lavin, before we end up like the Gas, all Wycombe(!) rejects etc...

[Port Said Red]

Our most successful team ever was built on youth developed at the club allied to shrewd buys to add experience. I see lot's of similarities between DW and Alan Dicks, despite the success built over several years he was constantly derided by a section of the fans.

[Redtrojan]

This is a difficult one.Up until recently i have been a fervent supporter of the academy,despite a real lack of producing anything above an average footballer.However the cost of running it (and this always seems to vary,but figures between 500k and 1 million are generally quoted),is relatively high.The academy has been running for what?,about 7years or so.Taking the mid figure of 750k,that pssibly means we would have had 7x 750k=@5million pounds to spend on players in that time.Do the above mentioned academy players add up to 5 million quids worth of talent-i'm afraid nowhere near.Which means as a lower league club perhaps we could use the money bringing in tried and tested players and other prem teams academies cast offs (rather like yeovil have done-done them no harm).The above argument about needing an academy to survive in the prem,is also bankrupt,how many youngsters come through the prem ranks(for gods sake how many non foreign players play in the prem).In an ideal world we would have an academy,but i feel in the present climate of relatively low transfer fees,would could use the money better to buy in some serious talent.

PS You can't possibly be serious about suggesting dw is anywhere near the manager Dicks was(the only positional change that he did that upset me was moving on of our best ever wingers Clive Whitehead to full back-criminal waste-although he went on to do well for wba in that position).

[Port Said Red]

PS You can't possibly be serious about suggesting dw is anywhere near the manager Dicks was(the only positional change that he did that upset me was moving on of our best ever wingers Clive Whitehead to full back-criminal waste-although he went on to  do well for wba in that position).

I would say that Dicks was ahead of his time identifying the attacking full back. If the idea of the 3-5-2 had been around (not thought too radical) then, White head would have been the ideal player in that wide position.

But I was actually referring to the fans reaction to the two rather than anything else.

[Guest zfc]

Well lets look at it this way - Our academy is created and a few years later Rovers no longer have any youth players of note and are forced to buy/give larger contracts for every player they need.

They are now struggling to survive with a team of useless pros

City on the other hand have a squad of players who are the right side of 30, with more hot prospects coming through.

Rovers do have youth players of note and with the appointment of Stewart Naughton who was a well respected figure at Southamptons academy the future does look brighter.

The likes of Ryan Clarke,Shane Hobbs,Victor Webb and Lewis Haldane who was snapped up from Southamptons academy shows that if you are shrewd enough you dont have to spend £800,000 per year on an academy that has to date only produced second division players.

I admit Rovers first team is god awful and that team represents the god awful manager that 99% of the Rovers fans wanted but behind the scenes and with the joint partnership we have with Filton College the future for Bristol Rovers does look good and it is costing a fraction of the £800,000 that Bristol City are paying to produce players that will be snapped up by the bigger better academies before they have even reached the first team if they are any good.

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

Having played against filton "academy" you really are setting your hopes rather high if you think that will produce anyone of a decent standard.

Ryan Clarke,Shane Hobbs,Victor Webb I don't know anything about so I wont argue, but I thought you signed Haldane from Trowbridge this year and he was straight into the reserves?

"that if you are shrewd enough you dont have to spend £800,000 per year on an academy that has to date only produced second division players."

Can't argue with that, though time will tell if our present crop, or our older players will make the grade at a higher level.

"£800,000 that Bristol City are paying to produce players that will be snapped up by the bigger better academies before they have even reached the first team if they are any good"

Can't argue with that either, but the setup has provided us with the basis of a decent squad. I've always said the academy should be complemented by 3 or 4 quality sigings to really make a side capable of A ) Learning more B ) Winiong promotion

[Guest Hodges17]

I think we loaned Haldane to Trowbridge didnt we?

That said, you say we got him from Trowbridge and he got into the reserves as if that's a bad thing. is is not possible for small clubs such as Trowbridge to have good players who could play professionally?

[richieb]

So far, our's has provided half the squad and there would be far fewer doubters if there had been more money available to fund the other half - there hasn't because of the huge losses that are the legacy of expensive mistakes in the senior player market.

But the point being that the players that have come through to the team, could well have come through with a Youth set up simular to that of Plymouth etc.

It dosn't need an Academy in place to produce the players in the Coles, Hill category.

If Natcher is correct & the Academy does cost £750k, then I think that this could be even more reason to question the viability.

OK, it is allegedly sell funding, but would not this funding be better spent elsewhere in our goal in reaching Div 1?

[RedUn]

It dosn't need an Academy in place to produce the players in the Coles, Hill category.

The point has been made countless times over the years that if City didn't have an academy the best young players would find places at other academies, e.g. Southampton's via their satellite centre in Bath ... they would include the latter day equivalent of Matt Hill and Danny Coles and all we'd have left to pick from is what Rovers have got now, i.e. lads that academies didn't want.

The proof of the pudding was the way our youngsters completely outplayed their's on Tuesday night as noted by the Gas' own chairman!

[richieb]

The point has been made countless times over the years that if City didn't have an academy the best young players would find places at other academies, e.g. Southampton's via their satellite centre in Bath ... they would include the latter day equivalent of Matt Hill and Danny Coles and all we'd have left to pick from is what Rovers have got now, i.e. lads that academies didn't want.

The proof of the pudding was the way our youngsters completely outplayed their's on Tuesday night as noted by the Gas' own chairman!

Yep, understand the point, but is it not the case now that teams like Southampton are already taking the cream of our local talent?

I am not saying that Matt Hill, Danny Coles etc are not good players, infact they are very good 2nd Div players.

But would they get into a 1st or Premiership team. While I would like to say yes, my heart tells me that at present both these players will struggle outside the 2nd Div (Coles the exception - maybe)

As for Tuesday night, yep as I understand City had far the better of the game & so they should. They had many players with 1st team/reserve experience where as Gas had a lot of younger (non experienced) players.

The other point being that, it is all very well playing better than our local rivals in a real 'mickey mouse' Pontins cup.But out of the team that we put out on Tuesday, how many will we actually get through to the 1st team?

Many will get frustrated & move on & we will be left with the odd gem (Lita etc) that will come through. But where does that differ to the Gas? They may not be as good as an all round team, but they could produce the odd gem ( Haldane etc).

I am beggining to struggle to see what point it is having a good quality reserve team, when it appears that little maybe seen of the developing youngsters in the 1st team?

Also good to point out that you mention - players that Academies don't want. Well wern't Clist, Lita, Fortune etc rejects from other Academies?

With the influx of foreign players, not many opportuinites will come the way of some academy players at a higher level & I reckon that this is the key area to pick up the odd bargin.

Final point (for now) - And this lies firmly at the feet of the management team. Perhaps they are not utilising the resource as best. If I were a fan of Crewe then I wouldn't even be questioning this Academy issue.

[Guest Red_Rat]

Surely You'd prefer to have a Lad born in Bristol with some passion and love for the team than some greasy haired foreigner or London lad that supports QPR.

My prime example is Christian Roberts, we play Cardiff one of our biggest rivals and he's got this love for the club.Those are the occasions when you need bristol lads that appreciate what our club is all about.

[cidercity]

Yep, understand the point, but is it not the case now that teams like Southampton are already taking the cream of our local talent?

I am not saying that Matt Hill, Danny Coles etc are not good players, infact they are very good 2nd Div players.

But would they get into a 1st or Premiership team. While I would like to say yes, my heart tells me that at present both these players will struggle outside the 2nd Div (Coles the exception - maybe)

As for Tuesday night, yep as I understand City had far the better of the game & so they should. They had many players with 1st team/reserve experience where as Gas had a lot of younger (non experienced) players.

The other point being that, it is all very well playing better than our local rivals in a real 'mickey mouse' Pontins cup.But out of the team that we put out on Tuesday, how many will we actually get through to the 1st team?

Many will get frustrated & move on & we will be left with the odd gem (Lita etc) that will come through. But where does that differ to the Gas? They may not be as good as an all round team, but they could produce the odd gem ( Haldane etc).

I am beggining to struggle to see what point it is having a good quality reserve team, when it appears that little maybe seen of the developing youngsters in the 1st team?

Also good to point out that you mention - players that Academies don't want. Well wern't Clist, Lita, Fortune etc rejects from other Academies?

With the influx of foreign players, not many opportuinites will come the way of some academy players at a higher level & I reckon that this is the key area to pick up the odd bargin.

Final point (for now) - And this lies firmly at the feet of the management team. Perhaps they are not utilising the resource as best. If I were a fan of Crewe then I wouldn't even be questioning this Academy issue.

[Spud55]

Re the players that other academies don't want, yes we still pick them up but we get first pick before any youth policy does. The exit trials are held first for the other academias to have a look at players. This gives us a massive advantage over other clubs at this level. We get to pick up the ones that prem clubs don't want before any other side in this division does and most of the first division does.

The academy will continue to supply our first team for many years, whatever the level, as the quality of players produced improves as the first team improves. If you can get your club known as a development club you will get far superior prospects than you will at a bigger buying club.

Lets say you are from Chepstow, and are a good prospect, you are offered a chance to play in an academy for city, where oyu will play week in week out against Premiership and good division 1 opposition youth players, or you can go to cardiff, and play against the likes of Rovers, Rotherham etc, etc. Which one will you choose ? It won't be Cardiff, because if you really are any good and have any ambition, you will play with the youth set up that plays against the higher opposition. We have had 1 14 year old go to man U, can you honestly say that kid would have had the same opportunity to show his ability in a youth set up ? Not a chance in Hell.

Now yes we lost him, but what about his mate who is almost as good, but didn't get noticed, now they both go on to develop to a similar standard, one is playing for Man U, and doing well, the other is exceptional for us as he moves through the ranks.

The academy has already produced far, far more than a youth set up would have done, a youth set up may have produced Coles and Hill, but it would not have produced, Coles, Hill, Burnell, Wankmag and all the other first team players we have.

We do need to supplement that academy with a few expirenced players to help the younger players, but until we get out of this division we can't really afford to do that so have to make do at the moment.