Crewe police and stewards - thought it was too good to last

[Andy082005]

I base my comments on my observations, because I was there.

You base yours on what you want to believe, and 10 seconds of TV coverage that shows a few City lads shouting and pointing fingers at the police, because something had clearly upset them.

But I bet you weren't there.

You know jack sh.. about what did and didnt happen, yet you choose to make judgment.

Interesting.

Totally agree with you mate, thats the problem, people tend to put across their point of view without actually knowing the full facts

I spent the weekend with three mates in Doncaster, two of them are Brummies and are Birmingham City fans. They came to the game, and one of them is a Police Sargeant in the West Midlands Police Force, AND he polices all of the Birmingham home games. Before it even got a bit heated in the ground, he turned to me and said it was going to kick off in a bit as the way the police had congregated in the corner and you could just tell that, along with the stewards, they were singling people out.

Let me just make a point of saying that in no way do I feel these fans were totally innocent, but sometimes, all it takes is a Copper or a steward to say "Look mate, I know you want to enjoy yourself, but just take it down a notch and we can all have a good day here..."....9 times out of 10 this would work.

As i said, we spent the weekend up there, and stayed in a hotel next to the ground. Luckily the hotel had a 24 hour bar which was idea for a nightcap once we got home both nights, and the bar manager on the nights was a Donny season ticket holder. He warned us on the Friday night that the Stewards are renowned for inciting trouble. He said don't even think about standing as you will be out on your ear, he also warned us about a Scottish Steward who is by far the worst....and actually brags about winding up the away fans!

[cider head]

Totally agree with you mate, thats the problem, people tend to put across their point of view without actually knowing the full facts

I spent the weekend with three mates in Doncaster, two of them are Brummies and are Birmingham City fans. They came to the game, and one of them is a Police Sargeant in the West Midlands Police Force, AND he polices all of the Birmingham home games. Before it even got a bit heated in the ground, he turned to me and said it was going to kick off in a bit as the way the police had congregated in the corner and you could just tell that, along with the stewards, they were singling people out.

Let me just make a point of saying that in no way do I feel these fans were totally innocent, but sometimes, all it takes is a Copper or a steward to say "Look mate, I know you want to enjoy yourself, but just take it down a notch and we can all have a good day here..."....9 times out of 10 this would work.

As i said, we spent the weekend up there, and stayed in a hotel next to the ground. Luckily the hotel had a 24 hour bar which was idea for a nightcap once we got home both nights, and the bar manager on the nights was a Donny season ticket holder. He warned us on the Friday night that the Stewards are renowned for inciting trouble. He said don't even think about standing as you will be out on your ear, he also warned us about a Scottish Steward who is by far the worst....and actually brags about winding up the away fans!

Backs up what the copper said to me about putting in a police report about excessive force and lack of dioplomacy

the stewards exploited opportunity knowing full well they would get their desired reaction,

you don't go poking a dog with a bone without it getting annoyed.

all it takes is a Copper or a steward to say "Look mate, I know you want to enjoy yourself, but just take it down a notch and we can all have a good day here..."....9 times out of 10 this would work.

100% spot on.

[reddoc]

Hey Ciderhead, I saw these pointless little pseudothugs prior to the game and their behaviour was not the 'all in good fun harmless banter' stuff some people are suggesting on here. Now quite frankly I couldn't care less and if a couple of them got spanked by the police then I couldn't be happier. However with your East End campaign in mind which I do support and did sign, just a little worried that as one of the leading activists, you appear to be defending the way these morons are behaving. Fact is these are the same idiots that'll be climbing up the fence at the first opportunity if it's opened and at the very least I'd feel a bit happier if you were condemning the little ####pots rather than offering albeit qualified support.

This isn't a personal criticism as such, would just prefer that as a leading advocate for opening the East End you didn't appear to be quite so obviously supporting the kind of supporters that ensure it's staying closed.

[Robbored]

I base my comments on my observations, because I was there.

You base yours on what you want to believe, and 10 seconds of TV coverage that shows a few City lads shouting and pointing fingers at the police, because something had clearly upset them.

But I bet you weren't there.

You know jack sh.. about what did and didnt happen, yet you choose to make judgment.

Interesting.

In that 10 secs of TV coverage you see a City 'fan' punching a seat obviously in an attempt to break it. Dress it up all you like Nick, but its that kind of negative publicity that any football club can do without.

Blaming the police and stewards for 'upsetting' the hooligans is frankly ludicrous. I'm suprised that you didn't blame the owner of the wine bar in Nottingham whose place the City 'fans' smashed up.

These idiots have to take some responsibilty for their behaviour and others making excuses for them is irresponsible imo.

[cider head]

Hey Ciderhead, I saw these pointless little pseudothugs prior to the game and their behaviour was not the 'all in good fun harmless banter' stuff some people are suggesting on here. Now quite frankly I couldn't care less and if a couple of them got spanked by the police then I couldn't be happier. However with your East End campaign in mind which I do support and did sign, just a little worried that as one of the leading activists, you appear to be defending the way these morons are behaving. Fact is these are the same idiots that'll be climbing up the fence at the first opportunity if it's opened and at the very least I'd feel a bit happier if you were condemning the little ####pots rather than offering albeit qualified support.

This isn't a personal criticism as such, would just prefer that as a leading advocate for opening the East End you didn't appear to be quite so obviously supporting the kind of supporters that ensure it's staying closed.

not defending anyone i'm going by what i saw and also told by a police officer that doncaster have a stewarding problem

THEY ARE PUTTING IN A POLICE REPORT AT THE END OF THE SEASON ABOUT IT.

i see the point that these lads may not have been 100% innocent and ok standing up

is not allowed but it's the way you ask people to sit and and my point is security staff

can provoke situation and the head steward told me they are on a learning curve as their

old ground was 80% terracing, what i'm saying is doncaster admitted they had a problem with some

of their staff, as for the eastend no i don't want to see this in there and to be honest i don't think

we see these lads that often but our stewards know their fans and how to deal with them doncaster

are still learning as i've said it's their first season in a new stadium and have not had to deal

with to many large away following in party mood with promotion over the horizon.

[Flaxbourton Red]

In that 10 secs of TV coverage you see a City 'fan' punching a seat obviously in an attempt to break it. Dress it up all you like Nick, but its that kind of negative publicity that any football club can do without.

Blaming the police and stewards for 'upsetting' the hooligans is frankly ludicrous. I'm suprised that you didn't blame the owner of the wine bar in Nottingham whose place the City 'fans' smashed up.

These idiots have to take some responsibilty for their behaviour and others making excuses for them is irresponsible imo.

Likewise the stewards have to take responsibility for their behaviour.

Making excuses for them will lead to a repeat of the fiasco they created.

go to crewe or swansea and see how stewarding should be done.

[NickJ]

[Robbored]

[NickJ]

Are you deliberately missing my point? Based on some of your previous replies on other threads you probably are.

I sense deja vu.

Here we go again. Robbored, please answer me this question:

Apart from the lad punching a seat, what actual evidence of hooliganism or City fans causing trouble did you see?

That's question number one.

Question number two is, what is your point?

[StapleHillPhil]

[Flaxbourton Red]

Punching a seat is actually a criminal offence under the little known Offences against Inanimate Objects (football Stadia) Act (1987). It is punishable with up to three months imprisonment. Other criminal offences under the Act include; slapping exit signs, head-butting corner flags and kicking turnstiles.

The act was used as recently as 1998, when a Bristol Rovers fan accused of molesting a dugout.

[PhatWill]

This is all insignificant bulls##t.

I very much doubt any of those fans who were thrown out in the corner and arrested were harshly treated. And we can say for sure that one extra (the seat puncher!) should have got the same treatment as the others - thrown out and arrested.

If we talking about City fans being harshly treated then I think my mate falls unde that category.

For the crime of swearing in front of a police officer (not AT a police officer), he was manhandled out of the ground at half time by two coppers, let out of Doncaster police station at 11pm Saturday night, charged with section 5 of the public disorder act, has to return to appear in court next Monday in Doncaster, if found guilty will be fined, given a criminal conviction and possibly banned from all football grounds for 3 years.

Please can someone tell me how that can be, yet kid who tried to punch in a seat is probably in school this morning, no worries?

[Moth Eaten Pillow]

Are you deliberately missing my point? Based on some of your previous replies on other threads you probably are.

I'm not sure you can really comment on something that you haven't seen.

Was around by that corner, the 3 stewards in black over coats were walking around like little hitlers obviously enjoying the little bit of power they have. The one with a tatoo on the side of his head was a thug - this was noticable when he ejected the lads.

Fair play to the City fan who gave the stewards a bollacking at half time - no swearing and got his point across. The fact that old bill stood there and let him carry on spoke volumes imo.

[reddoc]

not defending anyone i'm going by what i saw and also told by a police officer that doncaster have a stewarding problem

THEY ARE PUTTING IN A POLICE REPORT AT THE END OF THE SEASON ABOUT IT.

i see the point that these lads may not have been 100% innocent and ok standing up

is not allowed but it's the way you ask people to sit and and my point is security staff

can provoke situation and the head steward told me they are on a learning curve as their

old ground was 80% terracing, what i'm saying is doncaster admitted they had a problem with some

of their staff, as for the eastend no i don't want to see this in there and to be honest i don't think

we see these lads that often but our stewards know their fans and how to deal with them doncaster

are still learning as i've said it's their first season in a new stadium and have not had to deal

with to many large away following in party mood with promotion over the horizon.

Fair enough and admittedly I'm talking about what I witnessed outside the ground as was too far away to comment on any incidents inside. I also accept that stewarding/policing is a problem City fans have had to deal with for years but lets be honest if we didn't cart these little scumbags round with us everywhere we go and then act as apologists for them when it all starts to go wrong perhaps the problem wouldn't exist. To my mind there's a huge difference between creating an intimidating atmosphere within the ground and threatening individuals outside.

As long as we are seen to blame the police, stewards etc we are inevitably appearing to offer our support to the very people who are by their simple presence keeping the East End closed.

If we can't get rid of them let's at least make it clear we don't tolerate them or their behaviour as whilst they remain this EE thing hasn't a hope in hell.

[Flaxbourton Red]

This is all insignificant bulls##t.

I very much doubt any of those fans who were thrown out in the corner and arrested were harshly treated. And we can say for sure that one extra (the seat puncher!) should have got the same treatment as the others - thrown out and arrested.

i don't think anybody is saying they were harshly treated. the point is, the stewards created a situation by heavy handling of behaviour that we see up and down the country at football matches.

rightly or wrongly, fans not wanting to sit down at the match.

If they adopted a the crewe approach, we would be talking about that fantastic set piece that led to the late goal, not this.

sorry about your mate, i hope he has a good solictor.

[Flaxbourton Red]

As long as we are seen to blame the police, stewards etc we are inevitably appearing to offer our support to the very people who are by their simple presence keeping the East End closed.

If we can't get rid of them let's at least make it clear we don't tolerate them or their behaviour as whilst they remain this EE thing hasn't a hope in hell.

thank god the east end is closed it keeps the scum away from ashton gate.

keeping closing the east end great, next we will have to get that pesky williams stand shut as well. That will definitly keep ashton gate trouble free.

[bartolona]

Fair enough and admittedly I'm talking about what I witnessed outside the ground as was too far away to comment on any incidents inside.

I was close to the incidents inside the ground and apart from not sitting when told(same as my dog) i don't know what else they done wrong before the stewards and police had their little meeting then moved in to drag people out, the lad smacking his seat and any trouble was all after this.

Can't comment what anyone was doing outside because i did'nt see it.

[bringbacktherobin]

Lets Shut the Premium Seats, All thugs in there!! look at the coventry game!!

Close G Block Dolman aswell!! They might start attacking people with their nasty songs!!

Shut E Block Williams!!

[Guest maidenheadred]

[Flaxbourton Red]

As long as we are seen to blame the police, stewards etc we are inevitably appearing to offer our support to the very people

wrong on many counts

If the authorities such as stewards abuse their power or fail to act appropriately then we have a moral duty to speak out and condemn them. It is utterly foolish to believe that the police and stewards can do no wrong.

[cheshire_red]

I wasn't close enough to see what happened but a few were acting like muppets before the game and if they carried on in that vain then they would have brought attention on themselves in the ground as they did in the concourse. However, i have no doubt whatsoever that the stewarding in particular was overly aggressive.

This may seem overly simplistic, however, the Police are the authoritive enforcer of the Law at the end of the day and in my humble opinion should be having serious words with the Stadiums stewards and ensure that they understand fully that they should not incite crowds which again in my opinion they did without any doubt.

Perhaps Lessons could be learnt from the Irish way of doing things.

[NickJ]

[phantom]

i was there too - about 30 rows back from the nutters (advantage being i got to stand too, but with no steward hassle - brilliant!!). accounts/views on here seem to swing between "these nasty little thugs got what they deserved, and are entirely to blame" and "police and stewards created a situation out of nothing by punishing unavoidable boisterous behaviour".

My opinion is somewhere nearer the middle ground. Yes, they were behaving like ####. Didnt hear no surrender (couldnt have been many singing it if it was sang), but did see a load of head-the-balls trying to wind up any home fan half interested, and generally leaping around the centre alise/refusing to sit down, etc. Not good, and not to be condoned - but equally, i've seen a blind eye turned on a lot worse.

But, it could easily have been ignored. There were enough police there to stop anything overspilling, and the home fans just were not interested in having a go back. Had they not done anything at all, fans would have continued to stand, would have continued to act like idiots trying to get the home fans wound up, and that would have been that.

Instead, they went for who they considered to be the trouble makers, and from where I was sitting, they pretty much got it right and picked out the right people. BUT!! thing i havent seen mentioned here is that it worked!! For the second half, there was still some standing, still some baiting, but overall the mood was a lot more subdued, and to my knowledge there wasnt touble afterwards - or to take a copper's view of it, if there was trouble afterwards, a more subdued less aggresive crowd second half wouldnt have made it any worse? Yes - everyone was having a moan at how heavy handed the police were - but for all the talk of "just winds the crowd, police actions could have turned it nasty", etc etc - really, it defused things, because nutters are brave enough when waving at home fans in another stand - but less so when they might get arrested for it.

Pretty much spot on, Yes I was sat in the next section across on the flip side part of the reason why the problem calmed down was the previously mentioned steward with the tatoo on his head, was removed from that section of the ground due to the number of complaints that were received and upheld after a policeman confirmed he had seen this "OTT" behaviour.

Again not condoning any pre-mentioned behaviour but lets get it right the TV pictures, show 1 bloke being taken out under the stand, two fans pointing at the police and shouting, and a few hangers on, then it pans out to show the guy hitting the seat - Lets not get the "chanting" under the stands confused with what the TV showed completely different discussions !

"Personally" speaking I have no idea why ITV felt the need to show this incident, when ALL it could achieve was negative press for our club.

I may be wrong but don't assume 1 or 2 away fans being taken out of a stand as any real ground breaking news. . .. .

[reddoc]

wrong on many counts

If the authorities such as stewards abuse their power or fail to act appropriately then we have a moral duty to speak out and condemn them. It is utterly foolish to believe that the police and stewards can do no wrong.

Awww Christ, I hate being wrong and foolish, one or the others bad enough! And to try and clarify for you my aim was neither to defend the police or the stewards, I personally have little respect for either body, but I have even less respect for groups of thugs who target individual opposition supporters outside the ground as deserving of their abuse and threats of violence.

Simple point that hopefully you'll understand , don't attempt to cause trouble and chances are you're less likely to be arrested , thrown out etc.

Out of curiosity you kindly detailed one but what were the other counts on which I'm wrong as obviously keen not to make the same mistakes again?

[Flaxbourton Red]

Awww Christ, I hate being wrong and foolish, one or the others bad enough! And to try and clarify for you my aim was neither to defend the police or the stewards, I personally have little respect for either body, but I have even less respect for groups of thugs who target individual opposition supporters outside the ground as deserving of their abuse and threats of violence.

As opposed to groups of thugs in flourescent jackets?

Simple point that hopefully you'll understand , don't attempt to cause trouble and chances are you're less likely to be arrested , thrown out etc.

Out of curiosity you kindly detailed one but what were the other counts on which I'm wrong as obviously keen not to make the same mistakes again?

your statement i highlighted is wrong on many counts

as is your attempt to smear the east end campaign.

[Guest Topbuzz]

This is all insignificant bulls##t.

I very much doubt any of those fans who were thrown out in the corner and arrested were harshly treated. And we can say for sure that one extra (the seat puncher!) should have got the same treatment as the others - thrown out and arrested.

If we talking about City fans being harshly treated then I think my mate falls unde that category.

For the crime of swearing in front of a police officer (not AT a police officer), he was manhandled out of the ground at half time by two coppers, let out of Doncaster police station at 11pm Saturday night, charged with section 5 of the public disorder act, has to return to appear in court next Monday in Doncaster, if found guilty will be fined, given a criminal conviction and possibly banned from all football grounds for 3 years.

Please can someone tell me how that can be, yet kid who tried to punch in a seat is probably in school this morning, no worries?

I think i saw the lad in question in a city shirt dragged out barely feet touchin the floor nearly got chucked out myself over it

ridiculous over reaction

[Robbored]

[NickJ]

What amuses me about this is the number of people on this thread who automatically think that because quite a few of us have a complaint against the stewards and policing, we must therefore condone the actions of trouble makers.

We do not.

The topic started as a comparison between the stewarding at Crewe, and that at Doncaster.

This Donny fan evidently agrees the Doncaster stewards leaves a lot to be desired:

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=77337

No doubt Robbored will tell him he's wrong. After all, RR's seen 10 seconds of TV footage, "Jesst" has only been to every Donny home game.

[NickJ]

Robbored says he doesnt need to be there to know what happened.

I just discovered the "Ignore" button.

Can somebody please tell me if RR ever manages to provide a straight reply to a simple question.

[Robbored]

Robbored says he doesnt need to be there to know what happened.

Thats right - as explained in my last post

Can somebody please tell me if RR ever manages to provide a straight reply to a simple question.

Explain.

[phantom]

2) I find it almost unbelievable that you can make excuses for an idiot who was hell bent on destroying property.Ok, so he failed but that doesn't make it ok to behave like that.

How do you know he did not break it ?

Just because it was not shown on the TV, again another assumption made from a few seconds of un-necessary TV coverage

[Blagdon red]

Hey Ciderhead, I saw these pointless little pseudothugs prior to the game and their behaviour was not the 'all in good fun harmless banter' stuff some people are suggesting on here. Now quite frankly I couldn't care less and if a couple of them got spanked by the police then I couldn't be happier. However with your East End campaign in mind which I do support and did sign, just a little worried that as one of the leading activists, you appear to be defending the way these morons are behaving. Fact is these are the same idiots that'll be climbing up the fence at the first opportunity if it's opened and at the very least I'd feel a bit happier if you were condemning the little ####pots rather than offering albeit qualified support.

This isn't a personal criticism as such, would just prefer that as a leading advocate for opening the East End you didn't appear to be quite so obviously supporting the kind of supporters that ensure it's staying closed.

I agree with Reddoc.

Ciderhead, Flaxbourton Red and co, I suggest you temper your apparent support for these thugs (I was there too, I saw them and that is what they were), as you are in grave danger of losing the support of those fans that while not wanting to stand in the East End themselves (in many cases, like me, because they've been there, done that many years ago) nevertheless sympathise with the wishes of younger, perhaps more vocal fans who do want to go in there. The behaviour at the Brentford game suggested that this could work ... persistent support for loutish behaviour by thugs associating themselves with City at away matches simply undermines your case.

Continue in this vein and I have no doubt that the support of the 'fair-minded' fans for the 'Open the East End' campaign will very quickly evaporate.

[cider head]

I agree with Reddoc.

Ciderhead, Flaxbourton Red and co, I suggest you temper your apparent support for these thugs (I was there too, I saw them and that is what they were), as you are in grave danger of losing the support of those fans that while not wanting to stand in the East End themselves (in many cases, like me, because they've been there, done that many years ago) nevertheless sympathise with the wishes of younger, perhaps more vocal fans who do want to go in there. The behaviour at the Brentford game suggested that this could work ... persistent support for loutish behaviour by thugs associating themselves with City at away matches simply undermines your case.

Continue in this vein and I have no doubt that the support of the 'fair-minded' fans for the 'Open the East End' campaign will very quickly evaporate.

as i've said what these lads done i'm not defending what i'm saying punishment must fit the crime

and again a police sargent and head steward admitted they have over aggressive staff which is going to

be looked in to.

[Robbored]

Ciderhead, Flaxbourton Red and co, I suggest you temper your apparent support for these thugs (I was there too, I saw them and that is what they were), as you are in grave danger of losing the support of those fans that while not wanting to stand in the East End themselves (in many cases, like me, because they've been there, done that many years ago) nevertheless sympathise with the wishes of younger, perhaps more vocal fans who do want to go in there. The behaviour at the Brentford game suggested that this could work ... persistent support for loutish behaviour by thugs associating themselves with City at away matches simply undermines your case.

Continue in this vein and I have no doubt that the support of the 'fair-minded' fans for the 'Open the East End' campaign will very quickly evaporate.

Spot on - but it seems that some forum users can't see that.

[Portishead Red]

Whats the problem? You got a result there sunshine!!

To dam right, glory hunting girlfriend

By the way, i have no problem with people who wear Stone Island, i have a couple of numbers myself.

[Guest Topbuzz]

as i've said what these lads done i'm not defending what i'm saying punishment must fit the crime

and again a police sargent and head steward admitted they have over aggressive staff which is going to

be looked in to.

What is it these lads actually did stood up OOOOh the villainy

After some very very heavy handed stewarding and policing some fans acted angrily and were escorted out the ground

That at the end of the day is all that happened

Oh yeah and some divvy was hittin a seat Lock him up n throw away the key god!!!

[Flaxbourton Red]

I agree with Reddoc.

Ciderhead, Flaxbourton Red and co, I suggest you temper your apparent support for these thugs (I was there too, I saw them and that is what they were), as you are in grave danger of losing the support of those fans that while not wanting to stand in the East End themselves (in many cases, like me, because they've been there, done that many years ago) nevertheless sympathise with the wishes of younger, perhaps more vocal fans who do want to go in there. The behaviour at the Brentford game suggested that this could work ... persistent support for loutish behaviour by thugs associating themselves with City at away matches simply undermines your case.

Continue in this vein and I have no doubt that the support of the 'fair-minded' fans for the 'Open the East End' campaign will very quickly evaporate.

I can only comment on what I saw. Before and after the game I mixed with home fans and saw nothing untoward. On the way out i got chatting to a home fan who assured us that we will catch s****horpe up - I hope he is right.

Inside the concourse I saw a few lads singing songs. The facilities within the new ground were squallid compared to our red and white bar.

Inside the ground (i sat on the otherside of the stand) but was able to see:

the same city fans that were at crewe (still stood up and singing)

beneath them stewards and police congregating at the bottom then wading in to the city fans stood up, ensuing scuffles as people are dragged out.

At half time riot police pushed me out of the way in order to eject city fans in the bar area.

The mood of the fans turned from a celebratory nature to anger through poor stewarding and implementation of sit down at all costs policy.

I don't support loutish behaviour, however I do not consider standing at a football match loutish behaviour, unless it is done in front of people who would like to sit down, though I would in this situation consider it rude rather than loutish.

There are arguements for and against the imposition of all seater stadiums, saturday was yet again more evidence that they do not work.

[cider head]

What is it these lads actually did stood up OOOOh the villainy

After some very very heavy handed stewarding and policing some fans acted angrily and were escorted out the ground

That at the end of the day is all that happened

.

What i will suggest that anyone chucked out or arrested if your reading especially the one that was said to be hit on the back of the

head on ejection of the ground is to contact the police and obtain the cctv from them as they have to release it as part of the

data protection act i guess then we will know the truth of what the hell went on.

[greenun]

Having been at any number of away games over the years I've seen diabolical policing like at Walsall and Swindon and superb policing like at Brentford,Crewe and Torquay.It varies all across the country.You have to expect inconsistancy - its apart of the experience.

I'm sorry Alan, but I find that quote irresponsible.

The Football Supporters Federation, to whom Bristol City Supporters Club are affiliated, liase at national level with the Association of Chief Police Officers, through their Police and Stewarding Officer to avoid exactly what you purported.

Why should football fans expect inconsistency, and why are you making such a bold statement, when as Chairman of the SC you should be supporting the FSF's stance?

It's this type of "inconsistency" that affected a number of innocent City supporters at the Memorial Stadium. Does this mean you condone the Police action on that evening?

[Robbored]

What is it these lads actually did stood up OOOOh the villainy

After some very very heavy handed stewarding and policing some fans acted angrily and were escorted out the ground

That at the end of the day is all that happened

Oh yeah and some divvy was hittin a seat Lock him up n throw away the key god!!!

Why do you find it necessary to minimise what was an ugly and potentially nasty situation?

The stewards and police being heavy handed is common enough all around the country but its still no excuse for the 'fans' behaviour at Donny.

The WM Police a couple of season ago at Wallsal were the most heavy and obnoxious bunch I'd seen in 30 years but I don't recall seeing any City fans kicking off or smashing up the seats at that game.Blaming everyone else but the thugs is irresponsible imo.

[reddoc]

your statement i highlighted is wrong on many counts

as is your attempt to smear the east end campaign.

Didn't you bother to read my post? I support the EE campaign, always have , genuinely would like to see it opened for City fans as I enjoy the atmosphere it generates and am sure it benefits the team. Would you like me to carry on and smear it a bit more, or has that sunk in? Don't like the thugs whatever the age, neither does SL, CS or Avon and Som police. Therefore if you want it open don't be seen to be sympathising with them, it won't help.

[Flaxbourton Red]

Why do you find it necessary to minimise what was an ugly and potentially nasty situation?

The stewards and police being heavy handed is common enough all around the country but its still no excuse for the 'fans' behaviour at Donny.

The WM Police a couple of season ago at Wallsal were the most heavy and obnoxious bunch I'd seen in 30 years but I don't recall seeing any City fans kicking off or smashing up the seats at that game.Blaming everyone else but the thugs is irresponsible imo.

As is misrepresenting the facts.

You freely insert the word "excuse" when a comparison with the events at crewe would suggest "cause".

[Robbored]

I'm sorry Alan, but I find that quote irresponsible.

The Football Supporters Federation, to whom Bristol City Supporters Club are affiliated, at national level, liase with the Association of Chief Police Officers, through their Police and Stewarding Officer to avoid exactly what you purported.

Why should football fans expect inconsistency, and why are you making such a bold statement, when as Chairman of the SC you should be supporting the FSF's stance?

It's this type of "inconsistency" that affected a number of innocent City supporters at the Memorial Stadium. Does this mean you condone the Police action on that evening?

You are talking politics - and you know that there is a huge difference between politics and reality. I always lock my car and hide valuable goods when I park up in town because if I don't I would expect it to be nicked.With all the police around I shouldn't expect it to be stolen but I'm being realsitic.

Of course I don't condone the police action at the Mem recently if you are referring to the pepper spray incident but I do condone them taking the mounted officers onto the pitch.That particular act prevented a full scale riot imo.

[Flaxbourton Red]

Didn't you bother to read my post? I support the EE campaign, always have , genuinely would like to see it opened for City fans as I enjoy the atmosphere it generates and am sure it benefits the team. Would you like me to carry on and smear it a bit more, or has that sunk in? Don't like the thugs whatever the age, neither does SL, CS or Avon and Som police. Therefore if you want it open don't be seen to be sympathising with them, it won't help.

Ok I'm glad you support the east end.

However I did not see behaviour that would lead to the discription of my fellow city fans as thugs. I saw fans angry at aggressive stewarding and ejections for standing and ejections for god knows what at half time.

I can't see how speaking out against poor stewarding effects the campaign to open the east end.

[Robbored]

I can't see how speaking out against poor stewarding effects the campaign to open the east end.

Read Blagdon Reds post #103.

Makes the point that you can't see very clear.

[cider head]

Didn't you bother to read my post? I support the EE campaign, always have , genuinely would like to see it opened for City fans as I enjoy the atmosphere it generates and am sure it benefits the team. Would you like me to carry on and smear it a bit more, or has that sunk in? Don't like the thugs whatever the age, neither does SL, CS or Avon and Som police. Therefore if you want it open don't be seen to be sympathising with them, it won't help.

I think what people are saying was it necessary for stewards to go flying in like the S.A.S to kick out people for standing

and while this going on it's a knock on effect for innocent fans who were near by get pushed around therefore causing

more anger with other fans, if you play up and kicked out fine, but let's see it done by the rule book a dig in the head

on ejection is uncalled for no matter his or her crime and fans seeing that will get angry but also may have not seen what this person so called did.

snowball effect.

as i've said takes two to tango and a head steward and police sargent said they have staff problems.

[Flaxbourton Red]

Read Blagdon Reds post #103.

Makes the point that you can't see very clear.

I've read it again and can't see the link.

Perhaps I shouldn't speak out against aggressive stewarding, or the failure of all-seater stadia to provide a positive footballing experience for everybody as it may confuse people in to thinking I'm some sort of pro-thug.

However I do not doubt the intellegience of fellow city fans, who can quite clearly see the arguement that there is an inconsistency with the "facts" that the same city fans at crewe are fantastic are thugs at Doncaster 7 days later.

Cause and effect must be separated. The effect was angry fans, viewed via edited TV they look like thugs (lock em up).

However ask yourselves what caused this situation? why was doncaster so different to crewe?

So what did happen?

aggressive stewarding antagonising sections of our support is the only difference between crewe and doncaster.

[Blagdon red]

I've read it again and can't see the link.

Perhaps I shouldn't speak out against aggressive stewarding, or the failure of all-seater stadia to provide a positive footballing experience for everybody as it may confuse people in to thinking I'm some sort of pro-thug.

However I do not doubt the intellegience of fellow city fans, who can quite clearly see the arguement that there is an inconsistency with the "facts" that the same city fans at crewe are fantastic are thugs at Doncaster 7 days later.

What happened?

aggressive stewarding antagonising sections of our support is the only difference between crewe and doncaster.

As I've said earlier in this thread, I was sat in the area that this group of thugs took over on entering the stadium. I swiftly moved out of the way. They were looking for trouble before any stewards or police ever gathered in that corner. According to a number of earlier posts from eye-witnesses, they had also been abusive and foul-mouthed outside of the ground and in the concourse area. If you cannot see that your support for loutish behaviour undermines your EE campaign, then I'm afraid there's no hope for you or your campaign.

[Flaxbourton Red]

As I've said earlier in this thread, I was sat in the area that this group of thugs took over on entering the stadium. I swiftly moved out of the way. They were looking for trouble before any stewards or police ever gathered in that corner. According to a number of earlier posts from eye-witnesses, they had also been abusive and foul-mouthed outside of the ground and in the concourse area. If you cannot see that your support for loutish behaviour undermines your EE campaign, then I'm afraid there's no hope for you or your campaign.

That is not my experience of doncaster.

Not meaning to be sarcastic but does my view on the cause and effect of the doncaster situation undermine my other views, the benefits of a european style social democracy? campaign to protect the english coutryside? 4 4 2 rather than 3 5 2?

I hope not.

However, i'll assume you are correct and they were thugs. Are you confident that the situation was handled correctly by the stewards? Should they have been sold more alcohol? should they have been assaulted by the police?

[greenun]

You are talking politics - and you know that there is a huge difference between politics and reality.

If the FSF, to which the SC are affiliated are striving to achieve consistent policing, by liasing with the ACPO at national level, why is this aim 'politics'?

[NickJ]

As I've said earlier in this thread, I was sat in the area that this group of thugs took over on entering the stadium. I swiftly moved out of the way. They were looking for trouble before any stewards or police ever gathered in that corner. According to a number of earlier posts from eye-witnesses, they had also been abusive and foul-mouthed outside of the ground and in the concourse area. If you cannot see that your support for loutish behaviour undermines your EE campaign, then I'm afraid there's no hope for you or your campaign.

Blagdon Red, nobody has supported loutish behaviour, in fact all the people you have mentioned, and me, and many others, have explicitly criticised loutish behaviour, if there was any - I cant say there was, because I didnt see anything that was that bad from the City lads. If there was, fair enough, I guess your tolerance level is lower, not criticizing that, just trying to explain why we all see the same things in different ways.

All we are saying is that the stewarding was OTT and helped ignite a situation.

The Doncaster Police Sergeant has acknowldeged that, and a Donny poster on this forum has acknowledged it.

Ciderhead and Flaxbourton Red say it (and I've said it and lots of others have), and you interpret their comments as supporting loutish behaviour. Why?

[Blagdon red]

By criticising the actions of the police and/or stewards, you are - whether you intend to or not - giving the impression of siding with the louts that caused the police and/or stewards to take action.

Whether the action they took was inappropriate is not what I'm concerned about here. You say it's being looked into through the proper channels, so that's all well and good.

There would, however, have been no opportunity for the police/stewards to make any errors in how they handled the situation, if the group had not been so ill-behaved and clearly aggressive and confrontational in the first place. And by failing to accept this point, you appear (maybe unintentionally) to condone their misbehaviour and thus undermine your EE campaign. If you want it to be successful, I suggest you make it very clear in any future complaints against stewards/police that you wholly condemn misconduct at football grounds - which, whether you like it or not, currently includes persistent standing. It may be a stupid, unfair rule ... but it's the law.... and if you want police/stewards to turn a blind eye, then you need to help football rid itself of the sort of people like many in that small corner on Saturday.

[Flaxbourton Red]

By criticising the actions of the police and/or stewards, you are - whether you intend to or not - giving the impression of siding with the louts that caused the police and/or stewards to take action.

Whether the action they took was inappropriate is not what I'm concerned about here. You say it's being looked into through the proper channels, so that's all well and good.

There would, however, have been no opportunity for the police/stewards to make any errors in how they handled the situation, if the group had not been so ill-behaved and clearly aggressive and confrontational in the first place. And by failing to accept this point, you appear (maybe unintentionally) to condone their misbehaviour and thus undermine your EE campaign. If you want it to be successful, I suggest you make it very clear in any future complaints against stewards/police that you wholly condemn misconduct at football grounds - which, whether you like it or not, currently includes persistent standing. It may be a stupid, unfair rule ... but it's the law.... and if you want police/stewards to turn a blind eye, then you need to help football rid itself of the sort of people like many in that small corner on Saturday.

well there is a lot of assumptions there. I've hardly commented on the fans that stood up. Condemning poor stewarding does not equate to condoning loutish behaviour. Poor stewarding results in loutish behaviour, poor policing results in death a la hillsborough or violence = pick any england away game during the early 1990s. Treat people with respect rather than as animals is my prefered approach.

As a football fan I do not want to see a return to the dark days of hooliganism, however i do not want our game to morph into some sort of sanitised-americanised-consumer-leisure-baseball-type activity.

I support those fans that want to stand up as I believe all seater stadia is unworkable. The sooner we reject the nonsense that criminalises standing up, the better.

Football should be loud and noisy, fans should be able to exchange banter with themselves safe in the knowledge nobody is going to attack them (steward or thug).

As for loutishness itself; nobody can defend the indefensible, and it's certainly not my intention to do so.

[Robbored]

As for loutishness itself; nobody can defend the indefensible, and it's certainly not my intention to do so.

If you had said that at the start of this thread it wouldn't be half as long......

[gamon]

This is all insignificant bulls##t.

I very much doubt any of those fans who were thrown out in the corner and arrested were harshly treated. And we can say for sure that one extra (the seat puncher!) should have got the same treatment as the others - thrown out and arrested.

If we talking about City fans being harshly treated then I think my mate falls unde that category.

For the crime of swearing in front of a police officer (not AT a police officer), he was manhandled out of the ground at half time by two coppers, let out of Doncaster police station at 11pm Saturday night, charged with section 5 of the public disorder act, has to return to appear in court next Monday in Doncaster, if found guilty will be fined, given a criminal conviction and possibly banned from all football grounds for 3 years.

Please can someone tell me how that can be, yet kid who tried to punch in a seat is probably in school this morning, no worries?

You can't.

Your post describes exactly how this football banning order is being misused time and time again. I bet your mate has never even been in trouble before?

It is totally wrong that the police have the power to not only ban innocent people such as your friend but also imprison them in their own country every time Enlgand play an away international. This will have a serious impact on your friends future should he wish to pursue a job that requires international travel in the next 3 years. (For those that don't know he will have to surrender his passport 3 or 4 days before each England away international.)

All for swearing. Where is the victim here? Where is the evidence that this man is a football hooligan?

It is all b***ocks.. its not the punishment thats the problem its the people they are punishing. They are very often not the ones who this order should be used for.

[Flaxbourton Red]

If you had said that at the start of this thread it wouldn't be half as long......

Possibly, however as football fans why should we accept aggressive stewarding and poor law making?

[Guest bcfcluke]

so what if they were singin tht it doesnt effect you in anyway its jus them all avin a laugh i was there singin at crewe nd gary johnson was praisin us nd frm where i was sitting at doncaster i could hear the city fans singin the exact same songs nd your slaggin them off nd callin them thugs

[Robbored]

so what if they were singin tht it doesnt effect you in anyway its jus them all avin a laugh i was there singin at crewe nd gary johnson was praisin us nd frm where i was sitting at doncaster i could hear the city fans singin the exact same songs nd your slaggin them off nd callin them thugs

What? If you want to make a contribution to this interesting thread then write in English - not text. Read the forum rules.

[Rob k]

Football for me is not just about the game, I love the whole day, especially that of an away trip, Getting on the lash all day and having a decent crack with your mates, Unfortuantly some people find this loutish and aggresive - I did not see any of the spitting or people being disrespectful to others but if you say it happened ive no reason to disbelieve you, However to tarnish the whole group as hooligans is going bit far - like ive previously said i only saw a group of lads out on the smash having a laugh and the police waded in for no reason other than because they can. That is what i saw, others may see it differently.

[gamon]

What? If you want to make a contribution to this interesting thread then write in English - not text. Read the forum rules.

and if you are going to make a contribution it helps to know what you are talking about.

The Hooligans you refer to on the telly are not hooligans. The city "fans" pointing and shouting on the breif clip on ITV I think you will find were shouting at a steward who after dragging a fan out of the stand by the throat appeard to be punching him in the back of the head. This same fan took no part in any singing of certain songs and was not part of any group abusing Doncaster fans either but I don't suppose that matters in your eyes?

I didn't spot the guy punching the seat. Whilst it is innapropriate behaviour I would harldy label it full blown hooliganism either.

You are commenting on a small clip of film. The bigger picture is very much different and as ciderhead says we might see some action taken against the stewards some time in the near future.

[NickJ]

[allyolly]

Sadly it would appear the conduct of certain police forces up and down the country directly affects the potential for trouble both in and outside football stadiums. In my experience the South Yorkshire force seem to be battling it out with the West Midlands and South Wales police when it comes to contributing to the potential for trouble.

Anyone remember Rotherham two years ago? Sheffield Wednesday / United and Barnsley always seem to be tense for no obvious reason too. There has to be some link here.....

[greenun]

QUOTE(Robbored @ Mar 26 2007, 4:45 PM)

You are talking politics - and you know that there is a huge difference between politics and reality.

If the FSF, to which the SC are affiliated are striving to achieve consistent policing, by liasing with the ACPO at national level, why is this aim 'politics'?

Please can I have an answer?

[Robbored]

QUOTE(Robbored @ Mar 26 2007, 4:45 PM)

You are talking politics - and you know that there is a huge difference between politics and reality.

Please can I have an answer?

This thread is not about the FSF. Your're going off at a tangent.

But to answer your question with a question - if its not politics what is it?

[WTFiGO!?!]

This thread is not about the FSF. Your're going off at a tangent.

But to answer your question with a question - if its not politics what is it?

Unbelieivably unashamed Politicionesque non-answer even for your standards there RR.

One might suggest it is politics as opposed to 'Politics', it certainly has a bearing on reality.

[Blagdon red]

[Flaxbourton Red]

Been out all evening, so missed this earlier ... think we're going to have to agree to disagree on whether this group were thugs of 'City lads' having a bit of a laugh - I don't think we're ever going to convince the other to change his mind.

As for where to demonstrate, yes College Green is a more suitable place than inside an all-seater stadium. So is outside an all-seater stadium. In fact any public place where standing is allowed. Better still, work with groups like the ST to get - as a first step - unreserved seating for vocal fans in a designated part of the ground - ideally the East End - and with campaigns like Stand Up, Sit Down to change the minds of politicians and the footballing powers that be about safe standing.

You will not bring back standing at football grounds by civil disobedience inside stadia - this only pushes the day when terracing may return further and further away, giving the anti-standing brigade the ammunition they need to say 'Look, this lot can't behave themselves and follow simple rules - it'll be chaos if we allow standing'. To achieve your aims, you have to be a lot smarter in how you get there. You have to play the long game.

I support opening the EE, I support unreserved seating for vocal fans and I support the introduction of safe standing areas - but it won't happen as long as fans try to achieve these things by confrontational rather than collaborative means.

Blagdon red I respect your views as a fellow city fan, but I have to disagree with you.

Bad law calls for civil disobedience. All seater stadia do not work.

If I follow your logic then Rosa Parks should never have given up her seat for the white man.

The east end campaign is not interested in the anti-all seater campaign. Please do not confuse the two. Standing is out of the control of the club. Opening the east end is not.

[Blagdon red]

If I follow your logic then Rosa Parks should never have given up her seat for the white man.

I think you mean 'should never have refused to give up her seat...'

The east end campaign is not interested in the anti-all seater campaign. Please do not confuse the two. Standing is out of the control of the club. Opening the east end is not.

Granted. My point, however, is that misbehaviour is not going endear you to those within the club that have it within their gift to give you what you want. Such behaviour is counter-productive. I'll leave it there.

[Guest Uncle Ern]

Errrr have I missed something. The thread started as a comparison between good ,inobtrusive stewarding at Crewe and Waffen SS techniques applied by some of the Donny stewards.

It is now being non-too subtly directed into another East End debate by those with a certain agenda.

A friendly warning could easily have been given to those deemed to be breaking ground regulations and there would have been no confrontation. Mr Tattoo was appalling in his attitude and , in my opinion, sparked a sequence of events that should have been avoided. His threatening attitude at half time in the concourse only amplified this view.

Stewards have a job to do that is often thankless. The skill is doing it with humanity and often humour. A lot of our own stewards have developed this approach and get a better result this way whilst gaining the respect and support of those around them.

Those rubbishing our fans are taking the moral high ground without knowing the facts and jumping in after viewing the explosion without seeing the initial ignition of the fuse.

I was sat directly behind the "events" and had a clear view of all that transpired. I was left shaking my head in disbelief how such a minor transgression could have been so poorly managed to escalate into the debacle that followed.

[Redtilldead]

What? If you want to make a contribution to this interesting thread then write in English - not text. Read the forum rules.

You really are a rude person,there was absolutely no need for that, and you have the arrogance to call City fans knuckle draggers !!!!!.

If only you took as much time to make replies about your so called role as Supporters club chairman as you have on this post, we might achieve something, for someone who wasn't even at the game you have a lot of "knowledge" about it.